Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
Add into the mix the government is desprately seeking ways to make the Internet secure. No, control the internet...security only applies to THEMand their big brother' intents... So many vendors are trying their darndest to find a problem so they can sell a solution, even if that means creating the problem in the first place. Hegelian principal in its essence
RE: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 20:00, Kris Foster wrote: You're thinking of: Carrier-scale IP networks: designing and operating Internet networks Edited by Peter Willis, ISBN 0 85296 982 1, The Institute of Electrical Engineers, London But check my review of it on Amazon
Re: All-optical networking Was: [Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads]
Actually, research has been done that uses rare gasses to slow and even stop the photons down in a tube. It would be possible to store the states of photons in these tubs and then release them when you wanted with out requiring miles of fiber. Also, photons work inpairs. It may be possible to split the pairs on the fiber and observe the actions in the fiber remotely by capturing one side of the pair and allowing the others to continue. They interact in pairs even though physical distance is between them. On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Chris Kilbourn wrote: At 2:32 PM -0400 7/12/02, Ralph Doncaster wrote: Add in the fact that optical sniffing, while not impossible by any means today, will increasingly become non-trivial as bandwidth increases. Which is exactly one of the 'problems' they expect optical network to solve. You mean just expensive, right? i.e. a couple transponders and an OC48 or OC192 switch. Cost is a factor, certainly, but the storage of the captured data becomes the larger problem. In the TB or PB range of optical data transmission, where and how do you store the captured information? Unless you have TB's of solid state drives to stream electrons into after an optoelectronic photon - electron conversion your only other option is to store the photons in loops of fiber with an optical repeater. Until we have quantum computers which might be able to parse the data in real-time, we still need a buffer to store the data in before we can look for the needle in the haystack. Even with some nifty filtering on the sniffer, you're potentially looking at obscenely large amounts of information to store. I would expect that the distance of fiber you will need to store the data in will be the gating factor, which means it tilts more towards a physical issue than a cost issue. If I need a few thousand kilometers of fiber as a storage loop, it's kind of hard to move around efficiently. :-) Regards, Chris Kilbourn Founder _ digital.forest Int'l: +1-425-483-0483 where Internet solutions grow http://www.forest.net
Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
... But there doesn't seem to be anything that helps Bell heads understand what switching, routing or signaling means on the Internet. There are a lot of words which are spelled alike, but mean very different things in the Bell world and the Internet world. I've been thinking of it like driving in England or the USA. We drive on different sides of the road. Its safe until you get someone who doesn't know the rules of the road driving on the other side of the Atlantic. So how do you explain the rules of the Internet road to someone used to driving on the telephone system? Padlipsky's Elements of Networking Style may be the funiest technical book ever written. It is a really vicious critique of the whole OSI approach, written mid-80s. Some chapters are also available as RFCs, I think 871-875. If you know what you're doing, three layers are enough. If not, even 17 won't save you.
Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
Absolutely dead on, Sandy. And Padlipsky is still available. See my review in the most recen issue of The Internet Protocol Journal (June 2002). M. A. Padlipsky, The Elements of Networking Style. ISBN 0595088791 (orig. 1985; iUniverse, 2000) Peter --- Peter H. Salus Chief Knowledge Officer, Matrix NetSystems Ste. 501W 1106 Clayton Lane Austin, TX 78723 +1 512 451-7602 ---
Re[2]: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:51:34 -0400 Sandy Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Padlipsky's Elements of Networking Style may be the funiest technical book ever written. It is a really vicious critique of the whole OSI approach, written mid-80s. Some chapters are also available as RFCs, I think 871-875. yes, 871 is a personal favorite of mine; i've photocopied it and passed it out in classes i've taught. richard -- Richard Welty [EMAIL PROTECTED] Averill Park Networking 518-573-7592 Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security
Re: All-optical networking Was: [Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads]
The discussion is certainly entertaining, but -- 1) All-optical networking is a bunch of nonsense until optical processing ability includes complete set of logic and storage elements - i.e. achieving fully blown optical computing. Rationale for the statement: telecom is fundamentally a multiplexing game, and w/o stochastical multiplexing a network won't be able to achieve price/performance comparable to that of stochastically muxed network. Stochastical multiplexing requires logic and storage. The current opcial gates are all electrically-controlled, and either mechanical (and wear rather quickly, too, so you can't switch them per-packet or whatever), or iherently slow (liquid crystals), or potentially fast (poled LiNbO3 structures, for example) but requiring tens of kV per mm, making it slow to charge/discharge. Besides, your truly years ago invented a practical way to achieve nearly infinite switching capacity in electronics. Too bad, Pluris didn't survive the WorldCom scandal, as some investors suddenly got cold feet. 2) Wiretapping does not require storage of the entire traffic stream; and filtering for the target sessions can be done relatively easily at wire speed. 3) Nitpicking: I think you may be thinking about quantum-entangled pairs. That phenomena is better suited to cryptography than general networking. In an entangled system, both recipients would know pretty quickly that they did not receive their photons as there would be an early 'measurement' on one end, and a missing photon on the other. You cannot detect measurement per se. What you get is skewed statistics; the entangled pairs obey Bell inequalities, which no classical system can. This gives an opportunity to detect insertion of anyting destroying entanglement of the pair - but only statistically. You need to send enough pairs to distinguish normal noise from intrusion reliably. Besides, quantum entanglement cannot be used to send any information at all. What it gives is the ability to get co-ordinated sets of measurements at the ends, but the actual results of those measurements are random. I.e. you can generate identical vectors of random bits at the ends, but cannot send any useful message across using only entanglement. Therefore quantum entanglement (aka Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox) does not violate the central postulate of the special relativity theory (that no kind of entity can propagate faster than the speed of light in vacuum, in any non-accelerating reference frame). --vadim
Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
Has anyone written the equivalent of the old Bell Systems Notes on the Network for the Internet? A couple of books come close, Hueston's ISP Survival Guide and Cisco's ISP Essentials. But there doesn't seem to be anything that helps Bell heads understand what switching, routing or signaling means on the Internet. There are a lot of words which are spelled alike, but mean very different things in the Bell world and the Internet world. I've been thinking of it like driving in England or the USA. We drive on different sides of the road. Its safe until you get someone who doesn't know the rules of the road driving on the other side of the Atlantic. So how do you explain the rules of the Internet road to someone used to driving on the telephone system?
Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
On Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 03:09:19PM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote: Has anyone written the equivalent of the old Bell Systems Notes on the Network for the Internet? Hrmn, I can seem to download standards from http://www.ietf.org/ just fine. For some reason, I can't download anything from http://telecom-info.telcordia.com/ all the documents seem to cost about $700 apiece. Not to mention ANSI, ATIS, IEEE, ISO, ITU-T, TIA, EIA, et al. -dre
Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
On 12:18 PM 7/11/02, Peter Salus wrote: I'd love to write The Internet for Bell-Heads. Tell you what, Sean. You find an interested publisher and I'll write it. Looks like a perfect title for the Idiot's Guide series. jc
Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
Sean, My vote goes for... How to build an Internet Service Company From A to Z... All you need to know to plan, build and market an Internet service company. Tips and tricks from the inside. Charles H. Burke July '96 ISBN: 0-935563-02-4 And I quote... Coffee Maker - Coffee is an necessary as HTML to the aspiring ISP. ... I highly recommend the Bunn-Omatic corporation for excellent high performance coffee makers. ... It's a classic! As for driving in the UK and US... I have explained the value of roundabouts to many, many Americans and they still don't get it. Being British, but living in the US... I just don't get why they are not used here. You will have to put up with the face that Bell-heads and Net-heads just doing things differently and not understanding why the other side prefers an opposite method! Martin At 03:09 PM 7/11/2002 -0400, Sean Donelan wrote: Has anyone written the equivalent of the old Bell Systems Notes on the Network for the Internet? A couple of books come close, Hueston's ISP Survival Guide and Cisco's ISP Essentials. But there doesn't seem to be anything that helps Bell heads understand what switching, routing or signaling means on the Internet. There are a lot of words which are spelled alike, but mean very different things in the Bell world and the Internet world. I've been thinking of it like driving in England or the USA. We drive on different sides of the road. Its safe until you get someone who doesn't know the rules of the road driving on the other side of the Atlantic. So how do you explain the rules of the Internet road to someone used to driving on the telephone system?
Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
Working for a Telco with an ISP division, I can tell you the best thing to to do is wait for the Bell Heads to retire for the third time and keep them away from your gear until then :) But in all seriousness, a book or set of documents would be very helpful for those few Bell-shaped Heads that want to change their evil ways. -Scott (who is still trying to get back the IQ points lost in trying to understand the SS7 network and being amazed that calls ever make it through) -- Scott Call Router Geek, ATGi, home of $6.95 Prime Rib ...Everything's going to be just great again!
RE: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Daniel Golding wrote: Actually, the reverse would be useful, as well. Voice Networking/SS7 stuff for us IP weenies. (i.e. not voice over IP, just straight voice) Integrating Voice and Data Networks, Cisco Press, ISBN 1-57870-196-1 Part I, Traditional Voice Networks was a marvelous clue-by-four for me as far as voice networks goes. I've read more books on the topic than I can remember--which tells you how lousy the books were. This one got me clued in fast. I wouldn't claim to be a voice god now, but at least it was accurate and in-depth enough to allow me to talk semi-intelligently with those who live in that world (EM? Well, I'm not into that...but I guess I can spank your ass if it'll get the circuit up any quicker.) Note to ciscopress.com: put the Table of Contents for your books online! Ch. 1 The State of Voice Communications Ch. 2 Enterprise Telephony Signaling Signaling Functions, Analog Voice Trunks, Digital Trunk Types, R2 Signaling Ch. 3 SS7 Ch. 4 Call Routing and Dial Plans Ch. 5 Defining and Measuring Voice Quality Ch. 6 Voice Digitization and Coding -- Ron Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Scott Call wrote: Working for a Telco with an ISP division, I can tell you the best thing to to do is wait for the Bell Heads to retire for the third time and keep them away from your gear until then :) Yes, several people mentioned that the two groups should just maintain their seperate ways. There is this thing called convergence. If you squint real hard MPLS can almost make an IP network look like a telephone network. Add into the mix the government is desprately seeking ways to make the Internet secure. So many vendors are trying their darndest to find a problem so they can sell a solution, even if that means creating the problem in the first place. I don't know which is scarier. Lucent/Bell Labs trying to design the next generation Internet architecture, or Cisco trying to design the next generation DCN/SS7 architecture. (who is still trying to get back the IQ points lost in trying to understand the SS7 network and being amazed that calls ever make it through) I'm certain the Bell heads are equally amazed that packets ever make it through the Internet. The public telephone network is still the largest network on the planet, and some amazing engineering went into creating it. I'm not going to diss telco engineers. But a Babalfish to translate would be useful. How do you explain Internet security to a telco engineer. Or the concept that the Internet doesn't have a LERG, but somehow ISPs figure out how to get traffic from point A to point B. Or the biggie, that stuff is expected to fail, so that's why you buy lots of simple, cheap ones instead of one big, expensive, never-fail box.
Re: Notes on the Internet for Bell Heads
On Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:24:38PM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote: Yes, several people mentioned that the two groups should just maintain their seperate ways. There is this thing called convergence. I know a small number of operators with really talented and dedicated architecture people who have made converged networks work, and have in consequence both reduced their costs and increased the number of products they are able to offer. I know way more operators with really talented and dedicated architecture people who are preaching the gospel of convergence, and investing in new equipment to support it, and are having their efforts sabotaged at every turn by voice and data people who have closed ranks and are defending their respective empires. These operators wind up having to operate three networks (data, voice and data+voice), with correspondingly increased operational costs. The interop issues (both operational and architectural) between the three networks increase complexity, reducing the chance that any convergence products ever come to market, neatly and efficiently defeating the entire point of the initial exercise. How do you explain Internet security to a telco engineer. You change the subject and make him feel good about his voice switches until he wanders away and loses interest in bothering you. Joe
