Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
DL Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:26:25 -0500 (EST) DL From: David Lesher DL D) Diesel engines, err Diesel-fueled piston engines, be they DL 2 or 4-cycle, need frequent oil changes. I have every reason DL to think natural gas/propane fuel would require same less DL often; the washdown of such will evaporate out unlike #2 DL diesel. But I've been wrong before. I thought it was the exact opposite. Diesel fuel has much better lubricity than LPG/CNG/gasoline. Note how long diesel engines tend to last compared to gassers. In fact, I recall hearing about LPG/CNG automobile engines being broken in on gasoline for lubrication reasons. Of course, I could well be wrong. Eddy -- Brotsman Dreger, Inc. - EverQuick Internet Division Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building Phone: +1 (785) 865-5885 Lawrence and [inter]national Phone: +1 (316) 794-8922 Wichita ~ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:23:58 + (GMT) From: A Trap [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Please ignore this portion of my mail signature. These last few lines are a trap for address-harvesting spambots. Do NOT send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], or you are likely to be blocked.
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Bill Woodcock wrote: Backhoes always so far. - The gas gets cut off immediately in any fire situation, usually affecting a few city blocks at a time When was the last time you saw a fire that affected a few city blocks? I'm sure gas would be cut off in the event of a fire of that magnitude, but are you arguing that diesel delivery would continue? Trucks rolling through the maelstrom? I'm not sure what your point is here. If they backhoe a NG pipeline in front of your colo, it will ultimately hose both your gas *and* your mains power: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=314AF8E7.3D59%40InterNex.Netoe=UTF-8output=gplain Determining whether the fire marshall would allow you to operate a locally fueled Diesel genset is left as an exercise for the reader. Does anyone have any info regarding if NG pipeline delivery was affected (did gas pipeline pumps or valves stop working when the power went out?) when the Pacific Intertie went down in June 1996? jc
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered: He also is strongly opposed to us purchasing a natural gas generator which seemed like a shoe-in for us. I know of several cases where the San Jose fire marshall turned off natural gas as a precaution. You may wish to discuss with your local fire marshall under what conditions they will turn off the gas. Some places require auto-shutoff valves for NG as an earthquake precaution. Natural gas is a big plus in many ways; one undervalued by both customers and generator sales folks.. But all that ONLY in non-tilting/shaking enviroments. If 'earthquake' does not mean something that happens out in THEIR state.. to you; then don't consider it. -- A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED] no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Natural gas is a big plus in many ways; one undervalued by both customers and generator sales folks.. I agree completely. But all that ONLY in non-tilting/shaking enviroments. If 'earthquake' does not mean something that happens out in THEIR state.. to you; then don't consider it. Why? In what case is it still not preferable to diesel? The _only_ reason I've ever heard an informed person state for going with diesel is that the fire marshal wouldn't allow them to store anything else. -Bill
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
I'm in Santa Cruz County. Since I've been here, natural gas has been off for multiple days in a row twice. Once because of an earthquake, the second time because a winter storm put a lot of water in a hillside and the slide severed the (only) high pressure gas feed for the county. In both cases, electricity wasn't stable either. So for the last datacenter I built, I went with diesel. I've also been told, though I don't know how true it is, that diesel generators can go longer between service intervals, though for a datacenter I wouldn't skimp on routine maintenance anyway. Matthew Kaufman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -home [EMAIL PROTECTED] -work -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock ... Why? In what case is it still not preferable to diesel? The _only_ reason I've ever heard an informed person state for going with diesel is that the fire marshal wouldn't allow them to store anything else. -Bill
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Matthew Kaufman wrote: natural gas has been off for multiple days in a row twice. So for the last datacenter I built, I went with diesel. I'm not following your logic... How does the fact that natural gas is _usually_ available on-tap, and diesel _never_ is make diesel preferable? -Bill
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
This means that at least one of your generators (around here) should run on something you store on-site. And thus, if you can only afford one, that one must be in that category. Right. So if you have a choice of storing gas or diesel, and gas usually doesn't have to be replentished by truck, since it's _usually on-tap_, but diesel _always has to be replentished by truck_, since it's _never on-tap_, why would one ever choose diesel unless, as per previous caveat, clueless fire marshalls thought it was really preferable? -Bill
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Oh. I guess I missed the reasonably-priced natural gas generator that has an on-board compressor and tank system for storing natural gas. If such a beast exists, then yes, that makes even more sense. Matthew
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Thus spake Bill Woodcock [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Matthew Kaufman wrote: natural gas has been off for multiple days in a row twice. So for the last datacenter I built, I went with diesel. I'm not following your logic... How does the fact that natural gas is _usually_ available on-tap, and diesel _never_ is make diesel preferable? As noted by other posters, natural gas often goes out at the same times as electricity in some areas (e.g. California). In fact, many power companies use natural gas to generate electricity. Relying on one public utility to supplant another is not logical unless either you have historical data to satisfy you that outages in one are rarely linked to the other, or you can store natural gas onsite to run long enough and only need the utility to refill later. S Stephen Sprunk God does not play dice. --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSSdice at every possible opportunity. --Stephen Hawking
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
In a message written on Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 04:13:46PM -0800, Bill Woodcock wrote: Right. So if you have a choice of storing gas or diesel, and gas usually doesn't have to be replentished by truck, since it's _usually on-tap_, but diesel _always has to be replentished by truck_, since it's _never on-tap_, why would one ever choose diesel unless, as per previous caveat, clueless fire marshalls thought it was really preferable? I'm not an expert but: 1) Storing natural gas is significantly harder (both in the containers and permiting) than Diesel. It also has less energy density, so it takes more space. 2) Having natural gas trucked in, rather than delivered via pipeline is also extremely difficult, and possibly impossible in some areas. The infrastructure simply doesn't exist. On the other hand I could pick up the phone and have a semi-truck full of Diesel in any major metropolitan area in an hour or so for cheap. Indeed, it's very easy to get guaranteed responce time diesel contracts for emergency generators, I'd love to know if anyone has even attempted that with Natural Gas delivery by truck. 3) Getting a natural gas feed for a large data center (read a couple of megawatts) is probably impossible in most areas. The distribution network for natural gas just isn't set up for it. Much less of a concern for the people who need a few hundred kilowatts. 4) In larger sizes, Diesel gensets are _cheap_. Remember, the thing sitting outside the data center is essentially the same as every diesel-electric railroad locomotive, every portable power source, and a whole number of other things. Natural gas isn't generally a good idea for your train locomotive, so the gensets are less tested, harder to find, and more expensive. So, IMHO, natural gas is good for smaller applications (probably under 250Kw), in areas where the gas is stable so you don't have to do on site storage. Otherwise Diesel is probably cheaper (both in genset cost and fuel cost), and easier to obtain. -- Leo Bicknell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - [EMAIL PROTECTED], www.tmbg.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 07:42 PM 4/4/2003, Stephen Sprunk wrote: Thus spake Bill Woodcock [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Matthew Kaufman wrote: natural gas has been off for multiple days in a row twice. So for the last datacenter I built, I went with diesel. I'm not following your logic... How does the fact that natural gas is _usually_ available on-tap, and diesel _never_ is make diesel preferable? As noted by other posters, natural gas often goes out at the same times as electricity in some areas (e.g. California). In fact, many power companies use natural gas to generate electricity. Relying on one public utility to supplant another is not logical unless either you have historical data to satisfy you that outages in one are rarely linked to the other, or you can store natural gas onsite to run long enough and only need the utility to refill later. It's quite as simple to store propane as it is diesel. Propane stored on-site is stable, needs no cleaning, and the genset is the same as you'd use for natural gas. Given the choice between storing a large quantity of diesel and storing a large quantity of propane, I'd take propane. Other folks would argue the other way. Scared about fire reaching your propane tank? Use in-ground tanks. Unlike fuel oil or gasoline, buried propane tanks are allowed, at least in some places. Think about it... leaking propane tanks don't pollute the soil, they pollute the air. Though I'm in an area where interruption of gas service isn't really a problem, the availability of gas is. Some towns just don't have gas service. So, we store propane. Not a big deal. I suspect, though I've never seen it done, that it'd be possible to set up a gas genset with both a pressurized tank of fuel and a connection to the mains, with valves to switch between.
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Leo Bicknell wrote: 1) Storing natural gas is significantly harder (both in the containers and permiting) than Diesel. Having done both, I would say that gas is much simpler from a practical point of view, and a little worse from a permitting point of view. I'd rather go through the one-time hassle of the permitting rather than the continuing hassle of maintaining diesel facilities, any day. It also has less energy density, so it takes more space. That's true, though it's never been a sufficient difference to be problematic for me. 2) Having natural gas trucked in, rather than delivered via pipeline is also extremely difficult... It's very easy to get guaranteed response time diesel contracts I'd love to know if anyone has even attempted that with Natural Gas delivery by truck. Yeah, it's no problem. Certainly no different than deisel in a metro area, and much easier than diesel in rural areas. I've never had to ask for a rush delivery, but I've always been offered delivery the same day I've called, and I believe the contract guarantees four-hour deliveries when we need it. My tank is a 96-hour supply, so that's fine for me. 4) In larger sizes, Diesel gensets are _cheap_. The only difference between the diesel and gas genset is the carburetor, which is just different, not more expensive. -Bill
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Daniel Senie wrote: I suspect, though I've never seen it done, that it'd be possible to set up a gas genset with both a pressurized tank of fuel and a connection to the mains, with valves to switch between. Yes, that's the way it's normally done. The input at the carburetor is valved based upon the pressure on the utility-line side. -Bill
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 04:04 PM 04/04/2003 -0800, Bill Woodcock wrote: On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Matthew Kaufman wrote: natural gas has been off for multiple days in a row twice. So for the last datacenter I built, I went with diesel. I'm not following your logic... How does the fact that natural gas is _usually_ available on-tap, and diesel _never_ is make diesel preferable? -Bill Natural gas as generator fuel is generally not a good idea for a few reasons: - Natural gas is volatile, hence not a good option in earthquake prone areas - earthquake + natural gas line = big smelly leak - big smelly leak + spark = big fire - Diesel is fairly stable, and won't go up with quite so large a bang in a fire, not to mention it can only be ignited under extreme temperature and pressure - The gas gets cut off immediately in any fire situation, usually affecting a few city blocks at a time - Diesel is readily available, and can be delivered by any Joe Citizen during a disaster to the generator site, since it doesn't require much in the way of special containers Diesel generators come in both turbocharged and naturally aspirated models, which can easily be serviced by any competent diesel mechanic. Genset diesels are not any different than diesels in a passenger vehicle, tractor, or transport truck. In fact, diesels in gensets are engineered to work under much higher load conditions than vehicles, since they run constantly at a higher RPM under load Last, but not least: if you can't get diesel fuel from anywhere to run it, buy a few gallons of vegetable oil from the local supermarket and pour it in the tank. It'll work just as well. Timo
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 05:01 PM 4/4/2003 -0800, Bill Woodcock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 4) In larger sizes, Diesel gensets are _cheap_. The only difference between the diesel and gas genset is the carburetor, which is just different, not more expensive. Not entirely accurate. Since has low volumetric energy density compared to diesel, NG/Propane gensets are basically de-rated diesel gensets. A 150KW diesel would be approximately 100KW as a NG and slightly less than that when running on propane. There is an interesting research/marketing paper from Onan/Cummings on current and emerging power generation methods including diesel, ng, propane, hydrogen, turbines, reciprocating engines, microturbines, and fuel cells. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/yeager/ohiofuelcell/Norrick-Cummins.pdf When I was evaluating gensets for our datacenter, I found a really interesting unit which uses propane and/or natural gas mixed with the air to extend the runtime by adding significant BTUs from the gas. However, it can run directly on diesel alone should the gas supply be interrupted for some reason. Very neat technology and obvious after the fact, but much more expensive. We opted for a standard diesel genset since it is reliable and proven. The last thing I wanted was unknowns in a energy source I need to depend on when everything else goes to hell. -Robert Tellurian Networks - The Ultimate Internet Connection http://www.tellurian.com | 888-TELLURIAN | 973-300-9211 Good will, like a good name, is got by many actions, and lost by one. - Francis Jeffrey
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 05:01 PM 04/04/2003 -0800, Bill Woodcock wrote: 4) In larger sizes, Diesel gensets are _cheap_. The only difference between the diesel and gas genset is the carburetor, which is just different, not more expensive. -Bill Gasoline and natural gas engines run with a compression ratio of between 8.5:1 and 11:1 nowadays. Diesel engines require a minimum compression ratio of 22:1, since diesel fuel requires a lot of heat and extreme pressure to ignite. Natural gas engines use carburetors, while the newer gasoline engines are using fuel injection. The diesel genset engines use direct injection, there are no carburetors for diesel engines. Diesel fuel cannot be atomized by a carburetor the same way gasoline can, since it is a fuel oil. Timo
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Bill Woodcock wrote: They're already there. Whether or not you use it doesn't affect the likelihood that it'll break in an earthquake. And FWIW, I've been throught a lot of earthquakes, and I've been through a lot of gas-line cuts, but the two have never coincided. Backhoes always so far. I was in LA during the big quake, I saw quite a few fires -- all gas-line cuts. -Dan -- [-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 05:51 PM 04/04/2003 -0800, Bill Woodcock wrote: On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Timo Janhunen wrote: Natural gas is volatile, hence not a good option in earthquake prone areas - earthquake + natural gas line = big smelly leak - big smelly leak + spark = big fire They're already there. Whether or not you use it doesn't affect the likelihood that it'll break in an earthquake. And FWIW, I've been throught a lot of earthquakes, and I've been through a lot of gas-line cuts, but the two have never coincided. Backhoes always so far. Backhoe, earthquake, bottom line is that there's a break. - The gas gets cut off immediately in any fire situation, usually affecting a few city blocks at a time When was the last time you saw a fire that affected a few city blocks? I'm sure gas would be cut off in the event of a fire of that magnitude, but are you arguing that diesel delivery would continue? Trucks rolling through the maelstrom? I'm not sure what your point is here. Gas being turned off usually affects a few city blocks. Diesel generators come in both turbocharged and naturally aspirated models, which can easily be serviced Hey, and engine is an engine, regardless of what you dump in the top. Doesn't make any difference to the mechanic, or the parts guy, or whatever... It's all the same parts. Ask a mechanic that question. You'll likely get a somewhat different opinion. Timo
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
There is an interesting research/marketing paper from Onan/Cummings on current and emerging power generation methods including diesel, ng, propane, hydrogen, turbines, reciprocating engines, microturbines, and fuel cells. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/yeager/ohiofuelcell/Norrick-Cummins.pdf You're right, that's really good reading. interesting unit which uses propane and/or natural gas mixed with the air to extend the runtime by adding significant BTUs from the gas. However, it can run directly on diesel alone should the gas supply be interrupted for some reason. Very neat technology and obvious after the fact, but much more expensive. URL? -Bill
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
A) Piped natural gas is highly reliable here in the East. I've not had such in 10+ years. An even-momentary outage is cause for great alarm (and media coverage) since they can't restart the line without visiting every residence, closing the shutoff, only then re-starting the line, and visiting every residence to re-light pilots, run a nose-check. (Dirty little secret of old black steel lines is they rust from the inside; but then don't leak much since the line pressure holds the flakes in place. But drop line pressure, they deflake and it's swiss cheese when restarted.) I infer the req'd earthquake valves in Califunny also close on line pressure failure; so you can restore the line without a shutdown visit first? B) I know of no good way to store natural gas on-site. The utility typically uses an underground cavern that was a salt dome and hollowed out with lotsa H2O. Compressing gas locally is even less likely; it takes real KW to run the compressor station, as well as a safety zone surrounding. C) Yes, you CAN store propane, a different product. But if you need a lot of fuel, errr. A big propane tank is 300 gallons. I suspect the Fire Marshall will take intense interest in storage near a building of any size, much less in. Propane is heavier than air. Some codes ban its use in a basement without positive ventilation, gas detectors etc. D) Diesel engines, err Diesel-fueled piston engines, be they 2 or 4-cycle, need frequent oil changes. I have every reason to think natural gas/propane fuel would require same less often; the washdown of such will evaporate out unlike #2 diesel. But I've been wrong before. E) There are dual fuel diesel engines; maybe several kinds. I've read of the ones at sewage plants that suck ...methane vapor... from the digester tanks; not only is it free but the stink burns with it. There are also natgas/propane/gasoline generators in the ~10KW size, but that's spark ignition. By the ways: 1) We don't mind dumb questions; they're easier to handle than dumb mistakes.. is the sign on a friend's machine shop. I applaud the OP for being willing to ask. 2) At least pre-Ashcroft, the cops need a warrant, or probable cause, to haul you off. At least in most states, the Fire Marshall does not. He can show up unannounced, throw you out, pull the main breakers and shut all the fuel valves. He leaves a red tag on the door and you are out of business. Especially post 7 WTC and West Warwick; I'd not expect lots of latitude from your local/state fire inspector. -- A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED] no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
A) Piped natural gas is highly reliable here in the East. I've not had ^ in 10+ years. an outage -- A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED] no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, David Lesher wrote: : A) Piped natural gas is highly reliable here in the East. I've : not had ^ in 10+ years. : an outage Agreed; same here, though in the northeast, we do lie on what's considered a fairly significant fault line. Of course, should such come into play, geographical diversity of critical services would likely be of more importance. I'd suspect a quake in the northeast would have similar operational impact to a blizzard in SJ :) cheers, brian
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Timo Janhunen Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 9:01 PM To: Bill Woodcock Cc: Matthew Kaufman; 'David Lesher'; 'nanog list' Subject: RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator - The gas gets cut off immediately in any fire situation, usually affecting a few city blocks at a time When was the last time you saw a fire that affected a few city blocks? I'm sure gas would be cut off in the event of a fire of that magnitude, but are you arguing that diesel delivery would continue? Trucks rolling through the maelstrom? I'm not sure what your point is here. Gas being turned off usually affects a few city blocks. As a volunteer FF ... Actually, if a fire affects a few city blocks, there will be quite a few diesel trucks rolling if its a block of any magnitude. Cummins turbo diesels pumping 2000GPM out a ladder pipe drink a lot of diesel. Its not uncommon at all to refuel them on the fly with courtesy of your friendly BP delivery driver and its also fairly common to park an 1-1/2 fog stream underneath the truck fogging the exhaust lest we burn a hole through the pavement ... You'd have better odds of finding a diesel truck than the gas line being on with a large fire.
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 06:25 PM 4/4/2003 -0800, you wrote: http://electrochem.cwru.edu/yeager/ohiofuelcell/Norrick-Cummins.pdf You're right, that's really good reading. It is interesting to see where they think backup power generation is going and the current ratios of operating costs vs. purchase costs vs. fuel availability vs. power outputs and duty cycles. interesting unit which uses propane and/or natural gas mixed with the air to extend the runtime by adding significant BTUs from the gas. However, it can run directly on diesel alone should the gas supply be interrupted for some reason. Very neat technology and obvious after the fact, but much more expensive. URL? http://www.gastechnologies.net/bifuel.htm This is one manufacturer of the control systems. We currently have enough diesel fuel to run for about 10 days without refueling so I couldn't justify the 2-3 times higher expense of a bi-fuel genset. Apparently, pretty much any genset can be modified for bi-fuel operation without any internal modification. The other advantage to bi-fuel systems is that the slew rate problems of lp/ng gensets are completely avoided. For those who haven't seen or heard of problems with natural gas or propane powered gensets, this is another argument against them. We heard from multiple genset vendors of slew problems and several actually refused to sell us gas gensets when they learned about our application - powering high inductive loads (A/C compressors) as well as UPSes with computer equipment. Apparently as the load changes based on cooling equipment cycling on and off, gas generators (even with electronic governors) have trouble keeping the RPMs constant. Cummings specifically stated that diesel gensets don't have this problem due to the higher slew rate and more accurate RPM control due to the higher energy density of diesel fuel - just another data point. He also noted that the bi-fuel (diesel/gas) systems did not exhibit this problem either. -Robert Tellurian Networks - The Ultimate Internet Connection http://www.tellurian.com | 888-TELLURIAN | 973-300-9211 Good will, like a good name, is got by many actions, and lost by one. - Francis Jeffrey
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Once upon a time, Dan Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: That issue is something that we talked about. Having never worked with a generator for a long period of time, I don't have any feel for the reliability. My question back to you would be, how much battery do you use? We have about 10-15 minutes of UPS capacity. The important thing with a generator is to make sure you test it regularly. Ours (a diesel at one POP and a natural gas at another) automatically run each week and alert us to any problems. Then, to test the full system (transfer switch, etc.), we pull the handle (shut off utility power) once a month and make sure that everything works as it is supposed to. -- Chris Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
We have about 10-15 minutes of UPS capacity.
I.e. -- long enough to:
a) get metal spinning
or
b) realize Oh SHIT and start sync sync sync halt on every box.
The important thing with a generator is to make sure you test it
regularly. Ours (a diesel at one POP and a natural gas at another)
automatically run each week and alert us to any problems. Then, to test
the full system (transfer switch, etc.), we pull the handle (shut off
utility power) once a month and make sure that everything works as it is
supposed to.
WhatHeSaid...
You must test the things UNDER LOAD to be sure all is well. ISTM
the SOP is 30min to an hour, but that can be done less frequently
than starting and warmup.
Further gotcha's:
Diesel fuel is a Petri dish. Weird bugs grow in it. [Call Tom Ridge!]
If you don't have the right additives, your filters SHALL clog
on same when you most need same.
Cooling systems/maint -- please recall the NYC telehouse {was it
60 Hudson?} where post 9/11 the generator went down on overheat
because the radiator was clogged...
Most Diesels have a day tank with underground storage for the
real supply, and a transfer pump. It may sound trite, but be
sure that pump is itself an emergency load, otherwise. [Any
inference that I may have in fact run into this issue myself on
Somebody's installation is unproven rumor.]
--
A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Chris Adams wrote: We have about 10-15 minutes of UPS capacity. The important thing with a generator is to make sure you test it regularly. Ours (a diesel at one POP and a natural gas at another) automatically run each week and alert us to any problems. Then, to test the full system (transfer switch, etc.), we pull the handle (shut off utility power) once a month and make sure that everything works as it is supposed to. I agree about running the generator at least once a week...you need to ensure that the startup battery stays well charged. However, I disagree about doing a full-scale test once a month. Do that 2 or 3 times a year at most. Why? Your batteries are rated for X number of discharges. No need to hasten their failure. As long as the generator works, you shouldn't be worried. What are the chances your transfer switch is going to fail? Andy Andy Dills 301-682-9972 Xecunet, Inc. www.xecu.net Dialup * Webhosting * E-Commerce * High-Speed Access
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Cooling systems/maint -- please recall the NYC telehouse {was it
60 Hudson?} where post 9/11 the generator went down on overheat
because the radiator was clogged...
That was 25 Broadway (Telehouse USA). The air intake filter for their
generator clogged from all the WTC dust in the air. Pretty rare
circumstance...
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Sean Donelan wrote: That was 25 Broadway (Telehouse USA). The air intake filter for their generator clogged from all the WTC dust in the air. Pretty rare circumstance... There were some initial reports that this was the case, but I have never seen the final report from Telehouse what the final analysis found. If you remember there were also reports about a water pump failure, raditor clogging, etc. I know the clogged air filter was what we heard for 32 Old Slip. Since the telcos in that building (ATT, Focal, GNaps) only operate their own battery strings and not generators, they relied on the building generator. They didn't have any pull in getting maintenance folks back into the area to work on the genset. When power was restored initially it was not enough to handle cooling, so stepping out onto the 5th floor landing was like entering a blast furnace. At Telehouse, this is what I dug out of my archives, presumably from John Shields. Some things to note are that the initial failure was due to the facility running out of fuel. Ooops. Once refueled, the water pump supposedly died. If I recall correctly there were two other gensets running for the 6th floor, which at the time was basically unoccupied. It would have been a better design perhaps to tie both floors together and get N+1 redundancy on the gensets. But Telehouse has a poor track record with whomever does their electrical work. Before we moved to 25Bway, we went through a period where a transfer switch would fail during tests at 33 Whitehall. If I recall correctly this happened at least 5 times in one year. - To our 25 Broadway Clients: We'd like to bring you up to date regarding the power situation at 25 Broadway. As you are aware, the commercial power supply to 25 Broadway was lost at about 16:35 EDT Tuesday, September 11th, following the terrorist attack on NYC. With the cooperation of the NY City Office of Emergency Management and many others, we were able to replenish the diesel fuel. At approximately 15:30 Thursday, however, our critical power generator's water pump failed and power was lost to most of our customers' equipment on the 5th floor. We have aggressively pursued a two-pronged approach to restoring power: 1) TELEHOUSE prevailed upon Con Edison, the regional commercial electric power supplier, to deliver a portable generator to the site. The generator will be set up in the street adjacent to the building and connected by their electricians through a transformer than Con Ed delivered earlier today and wired directly into the building's bus. We expect to have power restored to your equipment between 15:30-17:00 EDT. 2) Although we were originally advised that we would have a new water pump shipped to the site for installation this morning, Caterpillar's representative in this region (H.O. Penn) was unable to locate one in the metropolitan area. We have arranged to have a pump forwarded from the warehouse in Pennsylvania via expedited shipping. The pump is expected to arrive in NYC by approximately 20:00 tonight with installation being planned for tomorrow. This will make available an additional level of backup beyond the generator provided by Con Edison. We understand that you have endured hardships as a result of this problem. We sincerely appreciate your patience and understanding as we, along with the rest of New York, work to overcome the stresses that this catastrophe has forced upon all. Our Customer Assistance Center (CAC) is staffed 24/7. Please feel free to contact us at [Confidential - Removed] at any time you have questions. Our email address [Confidential - Removed] should also be working again soon after the restoration of power.
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Yo Dan! On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Dan Lockwood wrote: He also is strongly opposed to us purchasing a natural gas generator which seemed like a shoe-in for us. I know of several cases where the San Jose fire marshall turned off natural gas as a precaution. You may wish to discuss with your local fire marshall under what conditions they will turn off the gas. Some places require auto-shutoff valves for NG as an earthquake precaution. RGDS GARY --- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Blvd, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
I don't know what policy is like in the USA, but before a fire crew even breathes here in Toronto, they shut off the gas. Not to mention that in the event of any political disaster, the supply of natural gas just cannot be guaranteed. Although it took a lot of begging, we were able to put a 200KW diesel on top of our wooden building. Wouldn't have it any other way. On the topic of batteries, our rule of thumb has been to have enough batteries around to cover a situation in which the genset does not start. That most likely will happen when nobody is paying attention and everybody competant is drunk at an office party. Even if you have a maintenance contract on the genset with a 1 hour response time, odds are that something is screwed up where the service guy will need a part that is somewhere else, etc. etc. Do a risk./benefit analysis. There is a point you reach where the cost of redundancy outweighs the cost of downtime. Dan. Alex Rubenstein wrote: He also is strongly opposed to us purchasing a natural gas generator which seemed like a shoe-in for us. We currently have a 133 kwatt nat gas genset. It has performed flawlessly -- they work well. The point of the marshall shutting of gas is a valid one, but I've not run across that. Also, if you are in a situation that the fire marshall need sto shut of nat gas, it may be a moot issue. -- Alex Rubenstein, AR97, K2AHR, [EMAIL PROTECTED], latency, Al Reuben -- --Net Access Corporation, 800-NET-ME-36, http://www.nac.net --
