RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
That massive bundle of visible conduit running under the toll road where Centreville Road crosses always grabs my attention. I'm sure there's nothing critical inside of it. Marc -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert E. Seastrom Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 11:04 AM To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Marshall Eubanks; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted the only fiber that i'm aware of that is actually along the toll road itself belongs to the toll road folks. it would screw up the smart tag transponders for sure, but the ensuing traffic backups are unlikely to affect half the east coast (even though traffic in nova sometimes feels that way). sunrise valley dr. and sunset hills rd. are an entirely different matter though. update your maps before you go to us rentals eh? :-) ---rob
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:01 AM To: Brian Wallingford Cc: Rod Beck; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted On Jan 21, 2007, at 12:05 AM, Brian Wallingford wrote: That's news? The same still happens with much land-based sonet, where diverse paths still share the same entrance to a given facility. Unless each end can Entrances, ha. Anyone remember that railroad tunnel in Baltimore ? And I am pretty sure that Fairfax County isn't much better. We have a railroad tunnel in Fairfax? On the less snarky side, I suspect that one wrong move by a backhoe along the Dulles Toll Road would screw about half the east coast. Jamie Bowden -- It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold Hunter S Tolkien Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur Iain Bowen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Jamie Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Entrances, ha. Anyone remember that railroad tunnel in Baltimore ? And I am pretty sure that Fairfax County isn't much better. We have a railroad tunnel in Fairfax? single points of failure, like f'rinstance collapsed backbone segments on boone blvd. not railroad tunnels. On the less snarky side, I suspect that one wrong move by a backhoe along the Dulles Toll Road would screw about half the east coast. the only fiber that i'm aware of that is actually along the toll road itself belongs to the toll road folks. it would screw up the smart tag transponders for sure, but the ensuing traffic backups are unlikely to affect half the east coast (even though traffic in nova sometimes feels that way). sunrise valley dr. and sunset hills rd. are an entirely different matter though. update your maps before you go to us rentals eh? :-) ---rob Jamie Bowden -- It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold Hunter S Tolkien Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur Iain Bowen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
On Jan 21, 2007, at 12:05 AM, Brian Wallingford wrote: That's news? The same still happens with much land-based sonet, where diverse paths still share the same entrance to a given facility. Unless each end can Entrances, ha. Anyone remember that railroad tunnel in Baltimore ? And I am pretty sure that Fairfax County isn't much better. Regards Marshall negotiate cost sharing for diverse paths, or unless the owner of the fiber can cost justify the same, chances are you're not going to see the ideal. Money will always speak louder than idealism. Undersea paths complicate this even further. On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Rod Beck wrote: :What's really interesing is the fragility of the existing telecom infrastructure. These six cables were apparently very close to each other in the water. In other words, despite all the preaching about physical diversity, it was ignored in practice. Indeed, undersea cables very often use the same conduits for terrestrial backhaul since it is the most cost effective solution. However, that means that diversifying across undersea cables does not buy the sort of physical diversity that is anticipated. : :Roderick S. Beck :EMEA and North American Sales :Hibernia Atlantic
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Rod Beck wrote: Or how about the ship that sank off the coast of Pakistan and cut both the SWM3 spur into Pakistan and the Flag link? This is a function of the cable-head being close to a port and close to it's neighbor cable-head, right? If the cable heads were on opposite sides of the harbor or in adjacent towns that probably wouldn't have occured, right? In many places (based on a quick scan of the telegeography map from 200 posts ago...) it seems like cable landings are all very much centrally located in any one geographic area. There are like 5 on the east coast hear NYC, with many of the cables coming into the same landing place. Diversity on cable system and landing is probably one of your metrics to watch, not just cable system :( This probably also means: 1) you bought direct from the coalition running the cable system 2) you knew enough to ask: is this in the same landing area or within 10km of same?' 3) your pointy haired person didn't say: buy from the same provider, so we get one bill! ya know, 'on-net!' and all that :( Social issues and budget issues probably kill real diversity 90% of the time :( (until you get bit)... which someone else already said I think? By the way, I will try to remove the disclaimer tomorrow. that'll keep the randy-complain-o-gram level down :)
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Rod Beck wrote: Unfortunately it is news to the decision makers, the buyers of network capacity at many of the major IP backbones. Indeed, the Atlantic route has problems quite similar to the Pacific. If this is news to them, perhaps its time to get new decision makers and buyers of network capacity at major IP backbones :-) Unfotunately people have to learn the same lessons over and over again. http://www.atis.org/ndai/ End-to-end multi-carrier circuit diversity assurance currently cannot be conducted in a scalable manner. The cost and level of manual effort required demonstrated that an ongoing program for end-to-end multi-carrier circuit diversity assurance cannot currently be widely offered. http://www.atis.org/PRESS/pressreleases2006/031506.htm The NDAI report confirmed our suspicions that diversity assurance is not for the meek, Malphrus added. It is expensive and requires commitment by the customer to work closely with carriers in performing due diligence. Until the problem is solved, circuit route diversity should not be promoted as a general customer best practice.
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
On 1/20/07, Brian Wallingford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's news? The same still happens with much land-based sonet, where diverse paths still share the same entrance to a given facility. Unless each end can negotiate cost sharing for diverse paths, or unless the owner of the fiber can cost justify the same, chances are you're not going to see the ideal. Money will always speak louder than idealism. Undersea paths complicate this even further. Just the other night I was trolling marketing materials for various lit services from a number of providers and I ran across what I found to be an interesting PDF from the ol' SBC (can't find it at the moment). It was a government services product briefing and in it it detailed six levels of path diversity. These six levels ranged from additional fiber on the same cable to redundant, diverse paths to redundant facility entrances into redundant wire centers. What struck me as interesting is that the government gets clearly definied levels of diversity for their services, but I've never run across anything similar in the commercial/enterprise/wholesale market. Are the Sprints/Verizons/ATTs/FLAGs/etc of the world clearly defining levels of diversity for their services to people?
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Aaron Glenn wrote: Just the other night I was trolling marketing materials for various lit services from a number of providers and I ran across what I found to be an interesting PDF from the ol' SBC (can't find it at the moment). It was a government services product briefing and in it it detailed six levels of path diversity. These six levels ranged from additional fiber on the same cable to redundant, diverse paths to redundant facility entrances into redundant wire centers. What struck me as interesting is that the government gets clearly definied levels of diversity for their services, but I've never run across anything similar in the commercial/enterprise/wholesale market. I believe such levels of diversity and detail were specifically mandated for the Fedwire. Are the Sprints/Verizons/ATTs/FLAGs/etc of the world clearly defining levels of diversity for their services to people? From past discussions with them when I was in the ISP world, I'd have to say for the most part the answer is no, and the bits of info that deviated from that stance were normally divulged under NDA. jms
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
In many places (based on a quick scan of the telegeography map from 200 posts ago...) it seems like cable landings are all very much centrally located in any one geographic area. There are like 5 on the east coast near NYC, with many of the cables coming into the same landing place. That's true, but they're far enough apart that a single accident is unlikely to knock out the cables at more than one landing. The two in NJ cross Long Beach Island, then shallow Barnegat Bay, to the landing sites. Once crosses in Harvey Cedars and lands in Manahawkin, the other crosses in Beach Haven and lands in Tuckerton. My family has a beach house in Harvey Cedars a block from the cable crossing and it's clear they picked the sites because there is nothing there likely to mess them up. Both are summer communities with no industry, the commercial boat harbors, which are not very big, are all safely away from the crossings. The main way you know where they are is a pair of largish signs at each end of the street saying DON'T ANCHOR HERE and signs on the phone poles saying, roughly, don't dig unless there is an ATT employee standing next to you. I haven't been to the landing site in Rhode Island, but I gather it is similarly undeveloped. Running a major cable in through a busy harbor is just a bad idea. so I'm not surprised that they don't do it here. R's, John
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Well, gentlemen, you have to ask for the fiber maps and have them placed in the contract as an exhibit. Most of the large commercial banks are doing it. It's doable, but it does require effort. And again, sorry for the dislaimer. It should be gone tomorrow. Regards, - Roderick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Sean Donelan Sent: Sun 1/21/2007 8:13 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Rod Beck wrote: Unfortunately it is news to the decision makers, the buyers of network capacity at many of the major IP backbones. Indeed, the Atlantic route has problems quite similar to the Pacific. If this is news to them, perhaps its time to get new decision makers and buyers of network capacity at major IP backbones :-) Unfotunately people have to learn the same lessons over and over again. http://www.atis.org/ndai/ End-to-end multi-carrier circuit diversity assurance currently cannot be conducted in a scalable manner. The cost and level of manual effort required demonstrated that an ongoing program for end-to-end multi-carrier circuit diversity assurance cannot currently be widely offered. http://www.atis.org/PRESS/pressreleases2006/031506.htm The NDAI report confirmed our suspicions that diversity assurance is not for the meek, Malphrus added. It is expensive and requires commitment by the customer to work closely with carriers in performing due diligence. Until the problem is solved, circuit route diversity should not be promoted as a general customer best practice. This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Well, I work for an undersea cable system and we are quite to willing to share the information under NDA that is required to make an intelligent decision. That means the street-level fiber maps and details of the undersea routes. However, there is a general reluctance because so many carriers are using the same conduits. A lot of fiber trunks can put in a conduit system so it was the norm for carriers to joint builds. For example, in the NYC metropolitan area virtually all carriers use the same conduit to move their traffic through the streets of New York. And again, I will remove the disclaimer. Regards, Roderick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Aaron Glenn Sent: Sun 1/21/2007 8:40 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted On 1/20/07, Brian Wallingford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's news? The same still happens with much land-based sonet, where diverse paths still share the same entrance to a given facility. Unless each end can negotiate cost sharing for diverse paths, or unless the owner of the fiber can cost justify the same, chances are you're not going to see the ideal. Money will always speak louder than idealism. Undersea paths complicate this even further. Just the other night I was trolling marketing materials for various lit services from a number of providers and I ran across what I found to be an interesting PDF from the ol' SBC (can't find it at the moment). It was a government services product briefing and in it it detailed six levels of path diversity. These six levels ranged from additional fiber on the same cable to redundant, diverse paths to redundant facility entrances into redundant wire centers. What struck me as interesting is that the government gets clearly definied levels of diversity for their services, but I've never run across anything similar in the commercial/enterprise/wholesale market. Are the Sprints/Verizons/ATTs/FLAGs/etc of the world clearly defining levels of diversity for their services to people? This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Hi John, There I disagree. Not with your statement, which is correct, but the implication. Most transatlantic cables are in the same backhaul conduit systems. For example, the three systems that land in New Jersey use the same conduit to backhaul their traffic to New York. The other three that land on Long Island use the same conduit system to reach NYC. By the way, the situation is even worse on the UK side where most of these cables are in one conduit system. And very few of those systems can avoid New York, which is a diversity requirement of many banks and one which the IP backbones should probably also adopt. You can't claim to have sufficient physical diversity when of the 7 major TransAtlantic cables, five of them terminate at the same end points. Only Apollo and Hibernia have diversity in that respect. Apollo's Southern cable lands in France and Hibernia lands in Canada and Northern England. And yes, I will remove the gargantuan disclaimer tomorrow. Regards, Roderick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of John Levine Sent: Sun 1/21/2007 9:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted In many places (based on a quick scan of the telegeography map from 200 posts ago...) it seems like cable landings are all very much centrally located in any one geographic area. There are like 5 on the east coast near NYC, with many of the cables coming into the same landing place. That's true, but they're far enough apart that a single accident is unlikely to knock out the cables at more than one landing. The two in NJ cross Long Beach Island, then shallow Barnegat Bay, to the landing sites. Once crosses in Harvey Cedars and lands in Manahawkin, the other crosses in Beach Haven and lands in Tuckerton. My family has a beach house in Harvey Cedars a block from the cable crossing and it's clear they picked the sites because there is nothing there likely to mess them up. Both are summer communities with no industry, the commercial boat harbors, which are not very big, are all safely away from the crossings. The main way you know where they are is a pair of largish signs at each end of the street saying DON'T ANCHOR HERE and signs on the phone poles saying, roughly, don't dig unless there is an ATT employee standing next to you. I haven't been to the landing site in Rhode Island, but I gather it is similarly undeveloped. Running a major cable in through a busy harbor is just a bad idea. so I'm not surprised that they don't do it here. R's, John This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Rod Beck wrote: Well, gentlemen, you have to ask for the fiber maps and have them placed in the contract as an exhibit. Most of the large commercial banks are doing it. It's doable, but it does require effort. Uhm, did you bother to read the NDAI report? The Federal Reserve learned several lessons. Fiber maps are not sufficient. If you are relying just on fiber maps, you are going to learn the same lesson again and again. The FAA, Federal Reserve, SFTI and SMART are probably at the top as far as trying to engineer their networks and maintain diversity assurances. But even the Federal Reserve found the cost more than it could afford. What commercial banks are doing is impressive, but only in a commercially reasonable way. Some residual risk and outages are always going to exist. No matter what the salesman tells you, Murphy still lives.
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 - -- Sean Donelan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The FAA, Federal Reserve, SFTI and SMART are probably at the top as far as trying to engineer their networks and maintain diversity assurances. But even the Federal Reserve found the cost more than it could afford. What commercial banks are doing is impressive, but only in a commercially reasonable way. Some residual risk and outages are always going to exist. No matter what the salesman tells you, Murphy still lives. This really has more to do with analogies regarding organizations such as DeBeers, and less with Murphy's Law. :-) - - ferg -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.5.2 (Build 4075) wj8DBQFFs/0Iq1pz9mNUZTMRAnhwAJ43Idwddu7LUfDyvIRqdal0tB6wKwCfZpgF KRslz7vAmtiHEZQ+CioIgIw= =cC3f -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Fergie, a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawg(at)netzero.net ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Fergie wrote: This really has more to do with analogies regarding organizations such as DeBeers, and less with Murphy's Law. :-) No, its not a scarcity argument. You have the same problem regardless of the number of carriers or fibers or routes. There wasn't a lack of alternate capacity in Asia. Almost all service was restored even though the cables are still being repaired. Its an assurance problem, not an engineering problem.
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Hi Sean, I don't really understand your argument. I have no clue what this 'assurance' means in the context of managing telecommunications networks. No one is claiming that risk can be eliminated - but can be greatly reduced by proper physical diversity. And for the Federal Reserve, I don't necessarily believe they are experts in building telecommunication networks. They may be, but you have do more than just assert it. For all I know, the groups you cited are simply not that good at managing network risk. Maybe there is a compelling argument, but you have elaborate it. - R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Sean Donelan Sent: Sun 1/21/2007 11:39 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Rod Beck wrote: Well, gentlemen, you have to ask for the fiber maps and have them placed in the contract as an exhibit. Most of the large commercial banks are doing it. It's doable, but it does require effort. Uhm, did you bother to read the NDAI report? The Federal Reserve learned several lessons. Fiber maps are not sufficient. If you are relying just on fiber maps, you are going to learn the same lesson again and again. The FAA, Federal Reserve, SFTI and SMART are probably at the top as far as trying to engineer their networks and maintain diversity assurances. But even the Federal Reserve found the cost more than it could afford. What commercial banks are doing is impressive, but only in a commercially reasonable way. Some residual risk and outages are always going to exist. No matter what the salesman tells you, Murphy still lives. This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
That's news? The same still happens with much land-based sonet, where diverse paths still share the same entrance to a given facility. Unless each end can negotiate cost sharing for diverse paths, or unless the owner of the fiber can cost justify the same, chances are you're not going to see the ideal. Money will always speak louder than idealism. Undersea paths complicate this even further. On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Rod Beck wrote: :What's really interesing is the fragility of the existing telecom infrastructure. These six cables were apparently very close to each other in the water. In other words, despite all the preaching about physical diversity, it was ignored in practice. Indeed, undersea cables very often use the same conduits for terrestrial backhaul since it is the most cost effective solution. However, that means that diversifying across undersea cables does not buy the sort of physical diversity that is anticipated. : :Roderick S. Beck :EMEA and North American Sales :Hibernia Atlantic
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Hi Brian, Unfortunately it is news to the decision makers, the buyers of network capacity at many of the major IP backbones. Indeed, the Atlantic route has problems quite similar to the Pacific. :Roderick S. Beck :EMEA and North American Sales :Hibernia Atlantic This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
A listing of cable ships around the world and their approximate locations (as of a couple of months ago) is available from the Submarine Telecoms Forum, at http://www.subtelforum.com/ and click on Issue 29. There just aren't that many ships in the area, or any area, for that matter. The regional cooperative facilities for cable repair and maintenance are planned based on some standard risk assessments, and the recent quakes seem to have caused damage outside the planned envelope. On Thu Dec 28, Gaurab Raj Upadhaya wrote: On Dec 28, 2006, at 5:35 AM, Jared Mauch wrote: I've wondered how many boats/subs exist for these repairs and if attempting to do them all in parallel is going to be a big problem. With 6 systems having outages, it will be interesting to see when various paths/systems come back online and if there is a gating factor in underseas repair gear being available in the region. Much of the affected cables are managed under the SEAIOCMA (South East Asia Indian Ocean Cable Maintenance Agreement). I am not sure how many ships they have on stand-by in the region, but probably not enough to send out one ship to each of the faults, given that multiple faults have been reported on most cable systems. I presume, the more important cable systems - those with higher stakes for the SEAIOCMA signatories will get repaired first followed by others. thanks
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Anderson, Matthew R [NTK] sent: That map is incorrect at least with respect to TAT-14. They depict it landing in New York City, though its two North American landing sites are actually well south of there in Manasquan and Tuckerton, NJ. Thanks for highlighting the mis-placements of some of the cables. Offices in NY City serve as the International Transmission Maintenance Centers and Gateway Offices of multiple carriers, if those latter designations are still relevant today. There are some other generalizations made on the map, as well, but I think the general concept of their being, along with their general utility in the universe, comes across just the same. Unless, of course, one is organizing a fishing expedition;) Kidding aside, these errors are actually intentional, and the publisher makes no bones about it at the bottom of the page. See disclaimer under the South Atlantic Ocean: Cable Routes do not represent all subsea cable networks and do not reflect actual location of cables Frank == On Thu Dec 28 15:37 , Anderson, Matthew R [NTK] sent: That map is incorrect at least with respect to TAT-14. They depict it landing in New York City, though its two North American landing sites are actually well south of there in Manasquan and Tuckerton, NJ. https://www.tat-14.com/tat14/stations.jsp I know that several of the other transatlantic cables do not land in NYC, for obvious diversity reasons, but this PDF shows them all landing there. Matthew Anderson -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]','','','')[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Coluccio Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:58 AM To: Gaurab Raj Upadhaya; Jared Mauch Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted I would expect that some of the affected cables have lost dc power used to drive repeaters and amplifiers (10 kv d.c.) from their landing stations. Or that is at least the hope at this time. The WSJ today published a superb article along with a unusually detailed global route map. See intro along with some comments concerning the route map (tinyurl): -- Quake Damages Undersea Cables, Disrupting Internet Service in Asia By JASON DEAN December 27, 2006 2:36 p.m. [FAC: Assuming the link below works, the article below contains an excellent global view of what looks like most, if not all, of the major submarine cable routes around the world in use today. It's a keeper, IMO, so I suggest downloading it to your HD. Here's the pdf, which is probably subject to the same shelf life constraint: http://tinyurl.com/ya45oo ] BEIJING -- A big earthquake near Taiwan disrupted phone and Internet traffic across Asia Wednesday, highlighting the fragility of a global telecommunications system that still relies on vulnerable undersea cables to carry data. The magnitude 6.7 temblor that struck late Tuesday off Taiwan's southern coast cut several fiber-optic cables that carry communications traffic through a key nexus in Asia, connecting Hong Kong and Southeast Asia with Japan and, ultimately, North America. Continued at: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB116719850925860370.html\?mod=djemTECH Enjoy! On Thu Dec 28 0:35 , Jared Mauch sent: On Thu, Dec 28, 2006 at 04:55:25AM +, Gaurab Raj Upadhaya wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Information seems to suggest that these all have one or other faults due to the earthquake. Some probably have more serious problems then others. SMW3 (Sea-me-we 3). FNAL and FEA (FLAG North Asia Loop) ; RNAL = Reach North Asia Loop APCN2 (Asia Pacific Network 2) C2C - Singtel's coast to coast EAC = East Asia Crossing (EAC) Traffic is gradually coming back through ad-hoc setups and re-routes, but cable providers are saying minimum 3 weeks for full recovery. I've wondered how many boats/subs exist for these repairs and if attempting to do them all in parallel is going to be a big problem. With 6 systems having outages, it will be interesting to see when various paths/systems come back online and if there is a gating factor in underseas repair gear being available in the region. - jared -- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from [EMAIL PROTECTED] clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Frank Coluccio wrote: Kidding aside, these errors are actually intentional, and the publisher makes no bones about it at the bottom of the page. See disclaimer under the South Atlantic Ocean: Cable Routes do not represent all subsea cable networks and do not reflect actual location of cables The relevant charts and or current navigation software have the cables well marked because mariners have an obligation under several international treaties (going back to 1884) not to hit them... If you have the tools to go on a fishing trip you have the tools to find the cable. If you obfuscate the location of cables I can plead ignorance when I drag it up with my achor. http://mapserver.maptech.com/mapserver/nautical_symbols/L4.html Like with back-hoeing through fiber, if you think hitting a submarine cable is bad there's plenty other stuff out there that has potentially disastrous consequences, gas lines, oil lines, well heads, high voltage power lines, and of course lots of other things that fall into the category of navigational hazards. joelja -- Joel Jaeggli Unix Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Key Fingerprint: 5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
There are significant cable landing sites at Pacific City and at Nedonna Beach near Rockaway, Oregon, not far from here in Portland. They connect variously to Japan, Hawaii (and Australia), Alaska and California. Quite a bit about these cable terminuses can be found at the Oregon Fishermen's Cable Committee web site. www.ofcc.com/cable_locations.htm The OFCC worked closely from the mid-1990s onward with at least three cable operators, Tyco, Alaska Northstar and Southern Cross (which has the main US-Australia loops). They have a special agreement that basically amounts to a collaborative approach to actual or potential cable snags by trawlers. The background makes for interesting reading. The Oregon Fishermen's Undersea Cable Committee Agreement (Oregon Fishermen's Agreement) is the first effort by two industries to discuss, describe and delineate their shared use of a community resource -- the ocean . . . The Oregon Fishermen's Agreement is intended to prevent damage to the fiber optic cable by releasing a Participating Fisherman from possible civil liability for ordinary negligence to WCICI/ANC/NorthStar Network under defined circumstances rather than by relying on fear and litigation. www.ofcc.com/about_ofcc.htm There's also an International Cable Protection Committee with what looks like a pretty complete listing of all active, retired and planned cable routes at: www.iscpc.org -- fh - Frank Coluccio wrote: Kidding aside, these errors are actually intentional, and the publisher makes no bones about it at the bottom of the page. See disclaimer under the South Atlantic Ocean: Cable Routes do not represent all subsea cable networks and do not reflect actual location of cables The relevant charts and or current navigation software have the cables well marked because mariners have an obligation under several international treaties (going back to 1884) not to hit them... If you have the tools to go on a fishing trip you have the tools to find the cable. If you obfuscate the location of cables I can plead ignorance when I drag it up with my achor. http://mapserver.maptech.com/mapserver/nautical_symbols/L4.html Like with back-hoeing through fiber, if you think hitting a submarine cable is bad there's plenty other stuff out there that has potentially disastrous consequences, gas lines, oil lines, well heads, high voltage power lines, and of course lots of other things that fall into the category of navigational hazards. joelja -- Joel Jaeggli Unix Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Key Fingerprint: 5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
I was formerly employed by WCI Cable in Forest Grove, OR. which had the landing station for cable to Alaska, Australia, Japan, etc. It was not Alaska Northstar then, but Alaska FiberStar. -Dee - Original Message - From: Fred Heutte [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], nanog@merit.edu Sent: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 17:28:36 -0900 Subject: Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted There are significant cable landing sites at Pacific City and at Nedonna Beach near Rockaway, Oregon, not far from here in Portland. They connect variously to Japan, Hawaii (and Australia), Alaska and California. Quite a bit about these cable terminuses can be found at the Oregon Fishermen's Cable Committee web site. www.ofcc.com/cable_locations.htm The OFCC worked closely from the mid-1990s onward with at least three cable operators, Tyco, Alaska Northstar and Southern Cross (which has the main US-Australia loops). They have a special agreement that basically amounts to a collaborative approach to actual or potential cable snags by trawlers. The background makes for interesting reading. The Oregon Fishermen's Undersea Cable Committee Agreement (Oregon Fishermen's Agreement) is the first effort by two industries to discuss, describe and delineate their shared use of a community resource -- the ocean . . . The Oregon Fishermen's Agreement is intended to prevent damage to the fiber optic cable by releasing a Participating Fisherman from possible civil liability for ordinary negligence to WCICI/ANC/NorthStar Network under defined circumstances rather than by relying on fear and litigation. www.ofcc.com/about_ofcc.htm There's also an International Cable Protection Committee with what looks like a pretty complete listing of all active, retired and planned cable routes at: www.iscpc.org -- fh - Frank Coluccio wrote: Kidding aside, these errors are actually intentional, and the publisher makes no bones about it at the bottom of the page. See disclaimer under the South Atlantic Ocean: Cable Routes do not represent all subsea cable networks and do not reflect actual location of cables The relevant charts and or current navigation software have the cables well marked because mariners have an obligation under several international treaties (going back to 1884) not to hit them... If you have the tools to go on a fishing trip you have the tools to find the cable. If you obfuscate the location of cables I can plead ignorance when I drag it up with my achor. http://mapserver.maptech.com/mapserver/nautical_symbols/L4.html Like with back-hoeing through fiber, if you think hitting a submarine cable is bad there's plenty other stuff out there that has potentially disastrous consequences, gas lines, oil lines, well heads, high voltage power lines, and of course lots of other things that fall into the category of navigational hazards. joelja -- Joel Jaeggli Unix Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Key Fingerprint: 5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
According to Chungwa, Sea-Me-We3 and APCN2 are affected. Satellite connectivity is already being mentioned for supplanting surviving regional connectivity. -- RSUC / GweepNet / Spunk / FnB / Usenix / SAGE
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Information seems to suggest that these all have one or other faults due to the earthquake. Some probably have more serious problems then others. SMW3 (Sea-me-we 3). FNAL and FEA (FLAG North Asia Loop) ; RNAL = Reach North Asia Loop APCN2 (Asia Pacific Network 2) C2C - Singtel's coast to coast EAC = East Asia Crossing (EAC) Traffic is gradually coming back through ad-hoc setups and re-routes, but cable providers are saying minimum 3 weeks for full recovery. thanks On Dec 27, 2006, at 9:58 AM, Joe Provo wrote: According to Chungwa, Sea-Me-We3 and APCN2 are affected. Satellite connectivity is already being mentioned for supplanting surviving regional connectivity. -- RSUC / GweepNet / Spunk / FnB / Usenix / SAGE -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFk049So7fU26F3X0RAgOqAKDKqfTGXHwRUqgTPLjU4mTa8aULkQCgjVkr F90LvIihrjjLkRok1rL2y7Q= =qd+e -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
On Thu, Dec 28, 2006 at 04:55:25AM +, Gaurab Raj Upadhaya wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Information seems to suggest that these all have one or other faults due to the earthquake. Some probably have more serious problems then others. SMW3 (Sea-me-we 3). FNAL and FEA (FLAG North Asia Loop) ; RNAL = Reach North Asia Loop APCN2 (Asia Pacific Network 2) C2C - Singtel's coast to coast EAC = East Asia Crossing (EAC) Traffic is gradually coming back through ad-hoc setups and re-routes, but cable providers are saying minimum 3 weeks for full recovery. I've wondered how many boats/subs exist for these repairs and if attempting to do them all in parallel is going to be a big problem. With 6 systems having outages, it will be interesting to see when various paths/systems come back online and if there is a gating factor in underseas repair gear being available in the region. - jared -- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from [EMAIL PROTECTED] clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
snip I've wondered how many boats/subs exist for these repairs and if attempting to do them all in parallel is going to be a big problem. With 6 systems having outages, it will be interesting to see when various paths/systems come back online and if there is a gating factor in underseas repair gear being available in the region. Just to give you an idea: (from http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/taiwan.quake.ap/index.html) (c)2006 AP Tyco International Ltd. said it has a Taiwan-based cable-laying ship heading to the area for repairs. Pretty much everything south of Taiwan has been reported at fault, said Frank Cuccio, vice president of marine services at Morristown, New Jersey-based Tyco Telecommunications. Cuccio expects the ship to be in position in a few days. It then takes three to five days to repair each cable, but mudslides set off by the earthquake can complicate matters by covering the cables, making them harder to retrieve from the bottom. Cuccio said the ruptures are more than 10,800 feet below sea level, too deep for the remote-controlled submersibles that otherwise would find the cables. Instead, the ship will drag grapnels along the bottom to find them. The cables on the deep ocean floor are just two-thirds of an inch, a testament both to the immense data capacity of optical fiber and the fragility of the links that form the global telecommunications network. - jared Randy
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
I would expect that some of the affected cables have lost dc power used to drive repeaters and amplifiers (10 kv d.c.) from their landing stations. Or that is at least the hope at this time. The WSJ today published a superb article along with a unusually detailed global route map. See intro along with some comments concerning the route map (tinyurl): -- Quake Damages Undersea Cables, Disrupting Internet Service in Asia By JASON DEAN December 27, 2006 2:36 p.m. [FAC: Assuming the link below works, the article below contains an excellent global view of what looks like most, if not all, of the major submarine cable routes around the world in use today. It's a keeper, IMO, so I suggest downloading it to your HD. Here's the pdf, which is probably subject to the same shelf life constraint: http://tinyurl.com/ya45oo ] BEIJING -- A big earthquake near Taiwan disrupted phone and Internet traffic across Asia Wednesday, highlighting the fragility of a global telecommunications system that still relies on vulnerable undersea cables to carry data. The magnitude 6.7 temblor that struck late Tuesday off Taiwan's southern coast cut several fiber-optic cables that carry communications traffic through a key nexus in Asia, connecting Hong Kong and Southeast Asia with Japan and, ultimately, North America. Continued at: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB116719850925860370.html?mod=djemTECH Enjoy! On Thu Dec 28 0:35 , Jared Mauch sent: On Thu, Dec 28, 2006 at 04:55:25AM +, Gaurab Raj Upadhaya wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Information seems to suggest that these all have one or other faults due to the earthquake. Some probably have more serious problems then others. SMW3 (Sea-me-we 3). FNAL and FEA (FLAG North Asia Loop) ; RNAL = Reach North Asia Loop APCN2 (Asia Pacific Network 2) C2C - Singtel's coast to coast EAC = East Asia Crossing (EAC) Traffic is gradually coming back through ad-hoc setups and re-routes, but cable providers are saying minimum 3 weeks for full recovery. I've wondered how many boats/subs exist for these repairs and if attempting to do them all in parallel is going to be a big problem. With 6 systems having outages, it will be interesting to see when various paths/systems come back online and if there is a gating factor in underseas repair gear being available in the region. - jared -- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from [EMAIL PROTECTED] clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine.
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 28, 2006, at 5:35 AM, Jared Mauch wrote: I've wondered how many boats/subs exist for these repairs and if attempting to do them all in parallel is going to be a big problem. With 6 systems having outages, it will be interesting to see when various paths/systems come back online and if there is a gating factor in underseas repair gear being available in the region. Much of the affected cables are managed under the SEAIOCMA (South East Asia Indian Ocean Cable Maintenance Agreement). I am not sure how many ships they have on stand-by in the region, but probably not enough to send out one ship to each of the faults, given that multiple faults have been reported on most cable systems. I presume, the more important cable systems - those with higher stakes for the SEAIOCMA signatories will get repaired first followed by others. thanks -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFk3IZSo7fU26F3X0RApmJAKDZpWgD67Kuqq8lSs7wEQquCVbfbQCguf61 bnrQWB66C0pOjl+5O7TYmVU= =yVXA -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Reuters AlertNet says (props, Vicky Rode): [snip] While a tsunami warning came to nothing, the quake damaged at least six undersea telecommunication cables, affecting users in Taiwan and South Korea, and was felt in China and Hong Kong. [snip] More: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/TP172793.htm - - ferg - -- Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087sid=aYHaxhLE4rr0refer=home Singapore Telecom, PCCW Say Internet Disrupted by Taiwan Quakes By Andrea Tan Dec. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Singapore Telecommunications Ltd. Southeast Asia's largest telephone company, and Hong Kong's PCCW Ltd. said Internet service in Asia slowed down after three earthquakes hit southern Taiwan yesterday. ``The Taiwan earthquake has affected several submarine cable systems in Asia, causing cable cuts near Taiwan late last night,'' Singapore Telecom spokesman Chia Boon Chong said by telephone today. ``Some customers might experience a slowdown in data or Internet access. Traffic diversion and restoration works are currently in progress.'' Taiwan was jolted by three earthquakes yesterday, killing two people and injuring 42 others, the island's National Fire Agency said. The tremors damaged undersea cables, causing a disruption to Internet traffic and some telephone calls in the region for customers including Singapore Telecom, PCCW, Chunghwa Telecom Co., Taiwan's biggest telephone operator, and KDDI Corp., Japan's second-largest telephone carrier. PCCW, Hong Kong's largest phone company, said data capacity on its networks was reduced to 50 percent due to the quake. ``Data service to Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and the U.S. were affected,'' said Hans Leung, a spokesman in Hong Kong. Two of Chunghwa Telecom's cables were damaged by the earthquake, resulting in ``near zero'' capacity for voice calls to Southeast Asia, apart from Vietnam, said Leng Tai-feng, the company's vice president of international business. ``The repairs could take two to three weeks,'' Leng said. ``We're doing our best to coordinate with other operators in the region to resolve the problem.'' Southern Taiwan The first earthquake, which was magnitude 6.7, occurred at 8:26 p.m. local time yesterday off Taiwan's south coast, the island's Central Weather Bureau said on its Web site. The second, magnitude 6.4, happened at 8:34 p.m. and the third, magnitude 5.2, occurred at 8:40 p.m. All three were centered in the same area, the bureau said. On Dec. 26, 2004, a magnitude 9.1 earthquake off Sumatra unleashed waves that destroyed coastal villages on the Indian Ocean from Indonesia to Sri Lanka, killing more than 220,000 people. Some of the areas have yet to recover. KDDI said its fiber-optic undersea cable in Taiwan was damaged, affecting fixed-line services to Southeast Asia. The company is re-routing phone calls to go through the U.S. and Europe and may take several weeks to two months to repair cables that are damaged, KDDI's Tokyo-based spokesman Haruhiko Maede said. KT Corp., South Korea's largest provider of fixed-line phone and Internet access service, said the outages affected overseas connections of the foreign ministry and Reuters, which use leased lines, said Kim Cheol Kee, a spokesman for Seongnam-based KT. KT is in discussions with foreign phone companies to redirect traffic elsewhere, Kim says. To contact the reporter on this story: Andrea Tan in Singapore at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Last Updated: December 26, 2006 22:57 EST - -- Suresh Ramasubramanian ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.5.2 (Build 4075) wj8DBQFFkg+5q1pz9mNUZTMRAipFAJ9OjJ/zSPPL0CTxvlXXZo3+eR7hzACfWAkE yQ6ittrZadD4GVS1kEcehK4= =mhgJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Fergie, a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawg(at)netzero.net ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
