RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> Frankly, I've been rather surprised at the level of the negativity that > has come across towards this idea in several of the posts and I'm not > sure why that is. It is because you are talking about a site which does not exist. It is because when people are intrigued by the idea and want to know more, there is no website where they can read further details. It is because this is complete vaporware from your imagination. These things do not play very well on a list where people are building and operating real networks and solving real problems. --Michael Dillon
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> Original Message > Subject: RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price > quote registry > From: "Matt Bazan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Fri, September 16, 2005 6:37 pm ... > > Now I fully realize that it's not a light matter to put ones job on the > line for this. However, I doubt, that in most cases, someone would get > fired for a first time offense. And, if worried, start with something > small. Bottom line is, the system's never been tested - anonymously. > Who knows what would happen? It's all essentially speculation until > it's tried. So your basic line of reasoning is "We can do it because we won't get caught."? Violating an NDA is violating an NDA. If you don't want to be bound by one don't sign it. You can get the Cisco pricing for the New York State contract here: http://www.ogs.state.ny.us/disclaim/default.asp?url=http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/3/usny/nygov Of course unless you are a NYS government agency you can't get that pricing. It also indicates NYS gets 32% off and it shows list price. -Eric
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:23:29 -0700 > From: Matt Bazan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote > registry > I don't know about you, but how many times have you wanted to know the > price of hardware vendor a, vendor b and vendor c's product offering Many a times... > only to find out that you have to contact one of their sales reps, give > them all your contact & company info (I'm sure you know the drill) > listen to a sales spiel (or two, or three) maybe a webinar, or > conference call or..etc. before finally getting a quote some time later? > Only to then be bothered by endless follow up sales calls? Would that be the plain "list" quote or a special quote ? > Wouldn't it be great if there was an online, updated daily, website that > listed real quotes oraganized by region in the country and company size? Nope, management would sure like to have leverage when negotiating the final price - but hey, they would like to have leverage on almost everyone ;D. From an *operational* standpoint I only want to know in what price range I should be thinking for vendor A, B and C. Because I need to weigh my feature list against the price list and them I also have to weigh them (a bit later) against the budget. Each vendor knows the list prcies from it's competitor usually, you as a customer can sometimes get that list rather easy, or you have to ask a rep for it. You get either a PDF with all their offerings, some lame XLS configurator sheet or whatever, just depends on how you ask them. Up till now, when I asked a rep at a vendor or a distributor, it usually was a matter of giving an e-mail address and hinting at what type of stuff I was looking at. That would get me enough information. Now if I mentioned that the price was a bit steep, then they're in their right > [ ... ] > I'll take care of the rest. Comments? Keep It Simple Sir. Listprices would be something everyone can use. And if vendors have issues with their listprices being public, then why set them in the first place !? > Matt Regards, JP Velders
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Matt Bazan wrote: > I don't know about you, but how many times have you wanted to know the > price of hardware vendor a, vendor b and vendor c's product offering > only to find out that you have to contact one of their sales reps, give > them all your contact & company info (I'm sure you know the drill) > listen to a sales spiel (or two, or three) maybe a webinar, or > conference call or..etc. before finally getting a quote some time later? > Only to then be bothered by endless follow up sales calls? This isn't an price list or an NDA problem. This is what I call a "vendor BS management" problem. I too hate webinars, conference calls, "breakfast forums" (Who the hell thought that one up? Someone who has never been called out in the middle of the night, probably) and other sorts of BS. If you're in a market where there is some competition, just tell the sales rep that if he wants you to jump through the hoops listening to the marketing BS and wasting your time with webinars and powerpoints, where you're force fed their propaganda, you ain't interested, you'll go somewhere else, and thanks for calling. I find it either a) re-focuses their mind to actually *listening* to you (now there's a shock), or b) they don't get it, and you can then ignore them (e.g. present a wall of voicemail, and fail to return their calls talking about "synergy" and similar BS) while they make even bigger fools of themselves, or until they give up. Yes, I know that option (b) sounds a bit rude, but they have shown you discourtesy by not listening and insisting on ramming marketing down your throat. The fun part about (b) is that if you do call them back after a few weeks, they have become so desperate, they will usually listen to you. The hardest part I find is dealing with companies with a high turnover of account management and pre-sales, where you seem to have to break a new salesman in every few months. That's almost as annoying as the webinars themselves. Cheers, Mike
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
"Marshall Eubanks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Am I the only one who feels that an NDA, even an NDA with a vendor, is an > agreement that should be honored ? > > I know they are silly in many case, but still... We certainly wish for our vendors to honor *their* NDAs with us, don't we? RIRs come specifically to mind, but hardware vendors often get sensitive information about our businesses as well. Honor is as honor does. I'm with Marshall on this point. BTW, I notice that "onelegal.com" is a civil litigation support company. Maybe Matt is just trying to drum up some new business by making this suggestion. ---Rob
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 04:46:32PM -0700, Matt Ghali wrote: > > On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > > Am I the only one who feels that an NDA, even an NDA with a vendor, is an > agreement that should be honored ? > > > I agree as well. It amuses me to no end that this fellow is posting > from his work account at "onelegal.com". Not to mention the fact that his "group effort" would just result in higher prices for everyone. Successful vendors are not stupid, they have managed to grasp a concept that has eluded the networking industry for quite some time: Profit. Yes everyone loves it when their vendor takes them out to dinner, or out for a night on the town, but at the end of the day who do you think pays for it? You do. If you think your vendor is your friend in this industry, your wallet is in for a bad time. Your vendor is your mortal enemy who you just get to act friendly with, nothing more. There is a profit margin which must be maintained, and that means the vendors will excercise the time tested art of maximum extraction and pricing at what the market will bear. Your good deal is funded by someone else's bad deal, where a couple of bottles of wine made them pay $20mil too much. You have to remember, these are not a mass market consumer style products, where a retailer buys at a wholesale price and sells at a retail price. You aren't going to help push prices down by collecting data about who is selling it for the cheapest. Even if you managed to successfully violate every NDA on the planet and show everyone what everyone else is paying, it will not change the bottom line profits which must be made. Every time you see someone who paid more than you did (especially if they are your competitor), you should rejoice, because they just funded your better deal. And if you have any doubt about who has and who hasn't mastered the art of maximum extraction in the name of profit, compare: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/cf?s=CSCO vs http://finance.yahoo.com/q/cf?s=LVLT -- Richard A Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
- Original Message - From: "Marshall Eubanks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Matt Bazan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 7:36 PM Subject: Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry > > Am I the only one who feels that an NDA, even an NDA with a vendor, is an > agreement that should be honored ? > > I know they are silly in many case, but still... yes, they are silly and, imo, highly unethical. with certain types of equipment an individual vendor or a pair of vendors have a virtual monopoly, so their actions and policies should be viewed in that light. with that said, two wrongs don't make a right. if you try to make something happen to change their behaviour, such as persuading them to act differently or compelling them to do so through regulation or legislation - great and many thanks. however, giving someone your word (this is what signing an agreement means) - at least for me - means i'm going to keep it. if you are not prepared to do so, don't give it/sign it. morality is about *your* behaviour first and foremost, since you can't be held responsible for that of others. -p --- paul galynin
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Marshall Eubanks wrote: Am I the only one who feels that an NDA, even an NDA with a vendor, is an agreement that should be honored ? I agree as well. It amuses me to no end that this fellow is posting from his work account at "onelegal.com". matto [EMAIL PROTECTED]< The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
marshall, No, you are not. We live or die by them. Hilton
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
Am I the only one who feels that an NDA, even an NDA with a vendor, is an agreement that should be honored ? I know they are silly in many case, but still... Regards Marshall Eubanks On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 23:12:40 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > If need be I'll off shore it. > > > > Matt > > you've had lots (some) folks point out the perceived dangers > of participating in such a venture. ... yet you continue to > insist that such a "service" will be of profound value to the > community as a whole and is not replicated anywhere else. > > if you are so persuaded, then it seems that instead of > espousing the idea, trying to drum up public support, that > you should, to borrow a phrase, "just do it" ... and let > people know where the site is and how to use it. as usual, > YMMV. and you might want to get legal advice. > > --bill
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:48:43 PDT, Matt Bazan said: > Not sure I buy that line of reasoning. Hasn't happened in the myriad of > other consumer product lines that have open pricing. The key word here is "consumer product". > Actually, not the case. CDW and Dell (and all the others) only publish > their prices for the low end gear that they sell. Anything else > requires a call to a rep and establishing a relationship. "low end". Quite the overlap with "consumer". It's pretty easy to find the "best price" for a Linksys cablemodem. When the router price rivals that of a Bugatti Veyron, getting a solid answer is a lot tougher - the converse of "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" is "Whatever you can afford, is what you'll end up paying". There's not enough margin on a $400 PC to be worth a real salescritter's time. If it's a $20K server, it's worth a salescritter to spend quite some time haggling. And if it's a $10M sale, the negotiations and tap-dancing will go on for a *long* time (http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/funonwheels/09/16/bugatti_veyron/index.html if anybody actually cares...) pgpHIr2H5f3hJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> > If need be I'll off shore it. > > > > Matt > > > > > Fine, you can build it and off-shore it, but I suspect that > is a case > of "if you build it they will not come". Robbing points from each other at the deal desk has 0 value to all of us. It also has 0 operational value. Ultimately, the smaller guys would suffer as a result anyhow. The more points beaten down at the top, the more pressure to not discount at the higher margins. [end] -M< > > I think that people have made it fairly clear that this is a bad > idea, but I don't think that anyone is going to stop you building it. > I am guessing that you will 1) get inflated prices because the > people who are getting the really good discounts are going to be the > ones with the most to lose personally and 2) lots of happy shiny > letters from vendor's lawyers asking you for logs. Whether or > not you > have logs is largely irrelevant, you will still get the letters. I > don't know about you, but I have better things to do than a: > unnecessarily antagonize the same people that you presumable want to > get a good discount from and b: collect subpoenas. > > Warren. > -- > "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, > and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett > > > >
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > you've had lots (some) folks point out the perceived dangers > of participating in such a venture. ... yet you continue to > insist that such a "service" will be of profound value to the > community as a whole and is not replicated anywhere else. > > if you are so persuaded, then it seems that instead of > espousing the idea, trying to drum up public support, that > you should, to borrow a phrase, "just do it" ... and let > people know where the site is and how to use it. as usual, > YMMV. and you might want to get legal advice. > > --bill Well, I didn't think that I was 'insisting' on the idea, at least that's not how I meant my posts to come across. Frankly, I've been rather surprised at the level of the negativity that has come across towards this idea in several of the posts and I'm not sure why that is. In either case, your last paragraph, Bill, was the direction I was headed. I'll mull it over for a time then decide if I want to put something in place and see what kind of response there is out there. Matt
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> > If need be I'll off shore it. > > Matt you've had lots (some) folks point out the perceived dangers of participating in such a venture. ... yet you continue to insist that such a "service" will be of profound value to the community as a whole and is not replicated anywhere else. if you are so persuaded, then it seems that instead of espousing the idea, trying to drum up public support, that you should, to borrow a phrase, "just do it" ... and let people know where the site is and how to use it. as usual, YMMV. and you might want to get legal advice. --bill
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
Uhh, make sure the data isn't stored anywhere vendor X's attornies can get to it. Rest assured, whoever hosts the site would be sent paperwork in hours, if not minutes from it's discovery. If need be I'll off shore it. Matt Fine, you can build it and off-shore it, but I suspect that is a case of "if you build it they will not come". I think that people have made it fairly clear that this is a bad idea, but I don't think that anyone is going to stop you building it. I am guessing that you will 1) get inflated prices because the people who are getting the really good discounts are going to be the ones with the most to lose personally and 2) lots of happy shiny letters from vendor's lawyers asking you for logs. Whether or not you have logs is largely irrelevant, you will still get the letters. I don't know about you, but I have better things to do than a: unnecessarily antagonize the same people that you presumable want to get a good discount from and b: collect subpoenas. Warren. -- "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> -Original Message- > From: Matt Ghali [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > And I am risking my career for you because...? > For life and liberty and...well, ok. I'm only requesting people to provide this info if they're comfortable doing so. If not, sit back and let's see what happens. Matt
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Matt Bazan wrote: Now I fully realize that it's not a light matter to put ones job on the line for this. However, I doubt, that in most cases, someone would get fired for a first time offense. And, if worried, start with something small. Bottom line is, the system's never been tested - anonymously. Who knows what would happen? It's all essentially speculation until it's tried. And I am risking my career for you because...? [EMAIL PROTECTED]< The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> -Original Message- > From: Charles Gucker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Well, httpd style logs will certainly "tell" where the > information came from. > No logging info of any sort would be enabled. > > Uhh, make sure the data isn't stored anywhere vendor > X's attornies can get to it. Rest assured, whoever hosts the > site would be sent paperwork in hours, if not minutes from > it's discovery. > If need be I'll off shore it. Matt
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Sep 16, 2005, at 2:48 PM, Matt Bazan wrote: Actually, not the case. CDW and Dell (and all the others) only publish their prices for the low end gear that they sell. Anything else requires a call to a rep and establishing a relationship. This is not true, particularly with places like CDW or Insight, etc. I don't buy enough from Dell but I imagine it's the same. There are usually three prices: 1) The price on the website, if listed at all. 2) The price on the website after logging in and getting your "special pricing" based on what company/login/who you know/etc. 3) The price you get by calling your sales rep and demanding better/volume/blackmail pricing. Anyways, this whole idea strikes me as a bad one for all the reasons others have mentioned but particularly because just knowing the price someone else has doesn't mean that you will get the price, in fact, you might find yourself on the receiving end of "have a nice day dealing with vendor Z" -- particularly if they already know you are set on using them as your vendor and you'll come back to them begging. It's a game of poker bluff all you want but then be comfortable walking away without making a deal. -david
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 03:37:08PM -0700, Matt Bazan wrote: > > a) the quote was in fact from a particular company (sure, it may look > darn similar - but prove? and if you're really worried, fudge some > details a bit) > - sure, if it's a $10 million quote that's one thing. But say a > $150,000 quote? Those are garden variety, least where I'm from (bay > area, California). Well, httpd style logs will certainly "tell" where the information came from. > b) who leaked it? it's completely anonymous. Think of all the 'senior > government' officials that leak info all the time. Often times they're > expressly forbidden from doing so and somehow the word still gets out. > Very rarely is someone nailed for it. And that's hardly anonymous if > push came to shove. Uhh, make sure the data isn't stored anywhere vendor X's attornies can get to it. Rest assured, whoever hosts the site would be sent paperwork in hours, if not minutes from it's discovery. Btw, this is why froogle.google.com and pricewatch.com exist. Although, they do not include list prices for the types of items you are looking for. charles
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> -Original Message- > From: Richard A Steenbergen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Obviously no one is wasting their time sueing you if your > company leaks the price of a low-end router to one or two of > your neighbors, it isn't worth the price of the lawyers, and > it isn't easy to prove. In cases of larger companies with an > employee who leaks the data, they simply apply political > pressure to have the employee fired. But if you were to start > publishing this data in any large scale, and especially if it > even impacted one of the cash-cow sales mentioned above, they > would come down on you like the hammer of the gods. :) > I'll state it again: this will be the beauty of a purely anonymous system. Think about it. How is anyone going to be able to prove: a) the quote was in fact from a particular company (sure, it may look darn similar - but prove? and if you're really worried, fudge some details a bit) - sure, if it's a $10 million quote that's one thing. But say a $150,000 quote? Those are garden variety, least where I'm from (bay area, California). b) who leaked it? it's completely anonymous. Think of all the 'senior government' officials that leak info all the time. Often times they're expressly forbidden from doing so and somehow the word still gets out. Very rarely is someone nailed for it. And that's hardly anonymous if push came to shove. Now I fully realize that it's not a light matter to put ones job on the line for this. However, I doubt, that in most cases, someone would get fired for a first time offense. And, if worried, start with something small. Bottom line is, the system's never been tested - anonymously. Who knows what would happen? It's all essentially speculation until it's tried. Matt
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 02:48:43PM -0700, Matt Bazan wrote:
>
> I can see your points here. But, I think there still is value to the
> medium and small companies that are not bound by these types of
> agreements.
If they wanted their pricing published, they would do so themselves. Most
vendors go to extreme lengths to make certain that not even the list price
of the high-end gear gets out, let alone examples of discounted price.
Most companies do want an NDA signed, and even those who are lazy/slack
about it for smaller customers would quickly crack down on anyone
contributing to such a list.
Why do they do this? Well, for starters they want to make certain you have
to interact with a sales person. Yes we've all had to deal with companies
who's sales people are difficult or impossible to get ahold of (some days
this seems to be a common theme of this industry :P). Yes we've all ended
up stuck with sales people ("order takers" really) who are incompetent,
don't have any product knowledge, and who take days or weeks to return a
simple quote. If you're an educated consumer who wants to compare multiple
options, it can be a nightmare. But, understand that you are the
exception, not the rule. Even in this very technical industry, most
consumers are idiots, with no idea what they want or need. A sales person
basically required in order for them to figure out their purchases, which
of course presents the opportunity to upsale.
Also, in regards to the extreme "list" vs "discount" pricing differences,
you may be wondering why vendors do this. It all leads back to the idiot
consumer. You'd be absolutely astounded at the number of government
agencies, universities, banks, etc, to whom money is not an object
(especially when people have a budget that they need to spend in order to
not have their funding reduced next year :P), who will buy things at list
price and not think anything of it. Even when someone gets a discount, the
vendor can tell them ANYTHING about how good that discount really is...
10%? 20%? 25%? 30%? 38%? 42%? 50%? 80%? These are just numbers, that can
easily be changed on a case by case basis. Remember the goal is to extract
the most amount of money from each customer, which means having highly
flexible prices depending on what each customer is able to spend.
Obviously no one is wasting their time sueing you if your company leaks
the price of a low-end router to one or two of your neighbors, it isn't
worth the price of the lawyers, and it isn't easy to prove. In cases of
larger companies with an employee who leaks the data, they simply apply
political pressure to have the employee fired. But if you were to start
publishing this data in any large scale, and especially if it even
impacted one of the cash-cow sales mentioned above, they would come down
on you like the hammer of the gods. :)
> Actually, not the case. CDW and Dell (and all the others) only publish
> their prices for the low end gear that they sell. Anything else
> requires a call to a rep and establishing a relationship.
Same concept really, they only list retail pricing for low-end products.
Anything bigger, and you need to talk to a rep who is trained in maximum
extraction.
--
Richard A Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras
GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Sep 16, 2005, at 2:12 PM, Matt Bazan wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean Figgins Yes, it would be great, however it won't work. Couple points. This is true typically in only the largest enterprise quotes. For the vast majority of medium and small business quotes NDAs are rarely used. And hey, if they are , that's why the process is anonymous ;-) Besides, in today's crap economy, is a vendor really going to come down on a client for violating an NDA and throw away $ $$$? I personally don't have experience with this but I'm willing to bet that most NDAs are more bark than bite. You might want to be careful there... A friend of mine moved from Company A to Company B and told his new employer what discount he had been getting from Vendor C (suggesting that new employer could get a better discount) . Vendor C promptly sued him for breach of NDA. AFAIR, the case was settled, but Company B had some fairly high legal bills... The range of discounts that different customers get is quite surprising and often seems to change mainly upon negotiation skills and not necessarily amount of equipment purchased. Warren. -- With Feudalism, it's your Count that votes.
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Sean Figgins > > Most of the vendors I know of like to wine and dine the VPs. > If a NDA gets violated, the vendor will not be forced to stop > dealing with the company, just get the employee that violated > the NDA to be fired. > Companies are getting very, very picky about this kind of > information getting out. And, if your company is publically > traded, I am sure that some consultant will claim this is a > violation of Sarbanes-Oxley. > I can see your points here. But, I think there still is value to the medium and small companies that are not bound by these types of agreements. > > > 6) Such a list is likely actually cause companies to have > to pay more. > > > > Not sure about the logic here... > > Logic goes like this: Company is seeing that it's prices are > getting out. > Company stopps giving the good discounts to anyone, as they > will have to give them to everyone otherwise... > Not sure I buy that line of reasoning. Hasn't happened in the myriad of other consumer product lines that have open pricing. In fact, just the opposite happens. Open pricing drives pricing down - not up. This is exactly the type of culture these hardware companies want. When you have closed pricing - in any industry - the buyer is always at the disadvantage. It's time to open this up. > If you are already doing business with a company, and just > want to have some incremental additional devices or services, > then you probably don't have to talk to a sales guy much to > get a quote from him. > > If you are shopping for the best price, and don't care about > support costs, or technical specs, then go shop at CDW, or > dell.com. Their prices are published. > Actually, not the case. CDW and Dell (and all the others) only publish their prices for the low end gear that they sell. Anything else requires a call to a rep and establishing a relationship. Matt
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Matt Bazan wrote: > anonymous ;-) Besides, in today's crap economy, is a vendor really > going to come down on a client for violating an NDA and throw away ? > I personally don't have experience with this but I'm willing to bet that > most NDAs are more bark than bite. Most of the vendors I know of like to wine and dine the VPs. If a NDA gets violated, the vendor will not be forced to stop dealing with the company, just get the employee that violated the NDA to be fired. Companies are getting very, very picky about this kind of information getting out. And, if your company is publically traded, I am sure that some consultant will claim this is a violation of Sarbanes-Oxley. > > 5) Purchasing companies would be less likely to want to divulge this > > information, as it could hurt their competitive advantage. If they > > are getting a 75% discount, and their closest competitor is only > > getting 50%, they have a lot better advantage. > > Well, that's why you don't get the VPs permission ;-). Anonymity!! Oh goody, even more reason to get fired... Given enough ammo, and you'll get fired, even if the VP does like you. > > 6) Such a list is likely actually cause companies to have to pay more. > > Not sure about the logic here... Logic goes like this: Company is seeing that it's prices are getting out. Company stopps giving the good discounts to anyone, as they will have to give them to everyone otherwise... If you are looking for answers to RFPs, then you probably want a little more information than just price anyways, and will want to talk to not only the sales rep, but also someone from their engineering team, or at least a sales engineer. If you are already doing business with a company, and just want to have some incremental additional devices or services, then you probably don't have to talk to a sales guy much to get a quote from him. If you are shopping for the best price, and don't care about support costs, or technical specs, then go shop at CDW, or dell.com. Their prices are published. I digress, though. This really hasn't much to do with network operations, so I'm gonna stop. -Sean
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:55:51 EDT, David Hubbard said: > Don't forget about "Well we're super sized network equipment > vendor X so if you rip out all of your equipment from vendor > Y, you can get discount + special discount." :-) Heck, we've had vendor X give us a discount for ripping vendor X's old gear out. :) (Seems we had locked in a price for a hardware maintenance contract, and X was at the wrong end of the deal when support costs rose faster than predicted...) pgpajtkMH8XJf.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
Gang, I just went through this matter in another venue (SAGe). My company's policy, and I know there are others equally stringent, is that I may divulge which products from which vendors I have looked at, and I may tell which one I picked. However, I may not divulge my processes for decision making, Ts & Cs, nor prices. It really makes for rather vacuous reading. Hilton
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Sean Figgins > > Yes, it would be great, however it won't work. > Couple points. This is true typically in only the largest enterprise quotes. For the vast majority of medium and small business quotes NDAs are rarely used. And hey, if they are , that's why the process is anonymous ;-) Besides, in today's crap economy, is a vendor really going to come down on a client for violating an NDA and throw away ? I personally don't have experience with this but I'm willing to bet that most NDAs are more bark than bite. > > I forsee the following proplems: > > 1) Vendors do not want their pricing available for all (including > competitors) to see > I know! That's the best part. Just what the airlines used to say back before the Internet - remember? My prediction is that once the info gets out there's no stopping it. > 2) Vendors would require that list prices be used > > 3) You would still need to go to the vendor to find out what > level of discount they are willing to give you, and then > negociate the best discount you want. > > 4) Different companies of similar size are able to negotiate > different levels of discounts, depending on the specifics of > their relationship with the vendor. You're likely to get a > better percent when you buy quantity 400 of "B" > router/switch/SAN than quantity 2. Sure, that will be in the quote. > > 5) Purchasing companies would be less likely to want to > divulge this information, as it could hurt their competitive > advantage. If they are getting a 75% discount, and their > closest competitor is only getting 50%, they have a lot > better advantage. > Well, that's why you don't get the VPs permission ;-). Anonymity!! > 6) Such a list is likely actually cause companies to have to pay more. > Not sure about the logic here... > That being said, I would personally LOVE to have the > information. I would not be able to participate because of > the NDA that we have signed, or risk loosing my job. > > -Sean > >
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Matt Ghali wrote: > I've resigned myself to it being one of the things I get paid to do. Ah yes, and don't forget that you can usually get rewarded for the time that you have to spend listening to the sales pitch by squeezing out a lunch or dinner or two out of the sales guy. That's a big motivation there... Plus the amount of time that it gets you out of doing to other sapects of your job! Well, maybe not all plusses there. -Sean
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Matt Bazan wrote: I don't know about you, but how many times have you wanted to know the price of hardware vendor a, vendor b and vendor c's product offering only to find out that you have to contact one of their sales reps, give them all your contact & company info (I'm sure you know the drill) listen to a sales spiel (or two, or three) maybe a webinar, or conference call or..etc. before finally getting a quote some time later? Only to then be bothered by endless follow up sales calls? I've resigned myself to it being one of the things I get paid to do. Wouldn't it be great if there was an online, updated daily, website that listed real quotes oraganized by region in the country and company size? No way that would ever happen. Companies especially in this market, thrive on making deals in a vacuum. Availability of that sort of imformation would force them to be slightly more competitive (and have slightly more integrity) I think so. Here's what I propose. I will design and host a web site to organize just such info. What I will need from all of you out there is your real time quotes (anonymously submitted is just fine, black out all the relevant personal/company info) and just include some general info on location (state for instance) and rough size of company. and all zero folks who aren't bound by disclosure restrictions could participate! The more effective and less time-consuming way to solve this problem is a discipline called "vendor management". matto [EMAIL PROTECTED]< The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
RE: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Oh, and you can have up to 7 of attached, unless you > have a attached, in which case you can have 5 > and one or 4 and 2 . You know the > configurator drill.. ;) > > Sure, go for it. :) Don't forget about "Well we're super sized network equipment vendor X so if you rip out all of your equipment from vendor Y, you can get discount + special discount." :-) David
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Matt Bazan wrote: > Wouldn't it be great if there was an online, updated daily, website that > listed real quotes oraganized by region in the country and company size? Yes, it would be great, however it won't work. > I think so. Here's what I propose. I will design and host a web site > to organize just such info. What I will need from all of you out there > is your real time quotes (anonymously submitted is just fine, black out > all the relevant personal/company info) and just include some general > info on location (state for instance) and rough size of company. I am sure that this will violate teh company-wide NDAs that are generally signed when you enter into a business relationship with vendors. Most vendors of size require this type of agreement, although most engineers are not privy to the agreement itself. I forsee the following proplems: 1) Vendors do not want their pricing available for all (including competitors) to see 2) Vendors would require that list prices be used 3) You would still need to go to the vendor to find out what level of discount they are willing to give you, and then negociate the best discount you want. 4) Different companies of similar size are able to negotiate different levels of discounts, depending on the specifics of their relationship with the vendor. You're likely to get a better percent when you buy quantity 400 of "B" router/switch/SAN than quantity 2. 5) Purchasing companies would be less likely to want to divulge this information, as it could hurt their competitive advantage. If they are getting a 75% discount, and their closest competitor is only getting 50%, they have a lot better advantage. 6) Such a list is likely actually cause companies to have to pay more. That being said, I would personally LOVE to have the information. I would not be able to participate because of the NDA that we have signed, or risk loosing my job. -Sean
Re: Calling all NANOG'ers - idea for national hardware price quote registry
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:23:29 PDT, Matt Bazan said: (answering the second part first) > to organize just such info. What I will need from all of you out there > is your real time quotes (anonymously submitted is just fine, black out > all the relevant personal/company info) and just include some general > info on location (state for instance) and rough size of company. > > I'll take care of the rest. Comments? Do you plan to include the current going price on eBay? :) > That way, if you wanted to, say, know that latest prices for 2TB fibre > channel SAN enclosures from company A and company B Now, did you want that as all 144G drives, or all 72G, or some shelves 10K RPM 72G, some shelves 7200RPM 72G, and some shelves 5400RPM 300G ATA? And if you have a mix, do you want to license the HSM product with that, and if so, how many gigabytes do you want under HSM management? And one vendor offers redundant heads as separate 3U blocks, while the other has a 5U chassis that you can buy either one or 2 controller cards, and the price points are such one vendor is cheaper if you want each head to manage half the storage and be able to pick up the other half on fallover, but the other vendor is cheaper if you want both heads able to talk to all the disk all the time. And did you want that with just FC connections, or with iSCSI too? Oh, and you can have up to 7 of attached, unless you have a attached, in which case you can have 5 and one or 4 and 2 . You know the configurator drill.. ;) Sure, go for it. :) pgpNs0TedcSYH.pgp Description: PGP signature
