Re: MS is vulnerable
On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 11:10:49AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [snip] This is because your mom doesn't want to have to hire a technical consultant to manage her IT infrastructure when all she wants to do is get email pictures of her grandkids. Then yer mom should get a Mac. And if she's like my mom, she'll be in the aisle in the computer store (well, the big box electronics store, more realistically) and be like Why should I pay $2000 for this one when I can get 'a computer' for $500? [1] Buy her an eMac. $700. -- Scott Francis | darkuncle(at)darkuncle(dot)net | 0x5537F527 I gave you the chance of aiding me willingly, but you have elected the way of pain! -- Saruman, speaking for sysadmins everywhere pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: MS is vulnerable
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:26:05 -0500 (EST) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is because your mom doesn't want to have to hire a technical consultant to manage her IT infrastructure when all she wants to do is get email pictures of her grandkids. Problem: 1. Even so-called easy systems are often too complex for $non_technical_person 2. When insecure software is exploited, $non_technical_person must hire a technical consultant anyway to backup data, reinstall the OS, and restore the data. Windows can boot to safe mode. Would an admin mode be that much more difficult? Just don't allow switches to admin mode to be automated by software... Eddy -- Brotsman Dreger, Inc. - EverQuick Internet Division Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building Phone: +1 785 865 5885 Lawrence and [inter]national Phone: +1 316 794 8922 Wichita _ DO NOT send mail to the following addresses : [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sending mail to spambait addresses is a great way to get blocked.
Re: MS is vulnerable
On Jan 29, 2004, at 9:26 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Microsoft software is inherently less safe than Linux/*BSD software. This is because Microsoft has favored usability over security. This is because the market has responded better to that tradeoff. This is because your mom doesn't want to have to hire a technical consultant to manage her IT infrastructure when all she wants to do is get email pictures of her grandkids. Then yer mom should get a Mac. doug
Subject: Re: MS is vulnerable
Microsoft software is inherently less safe than Linux/*BSD software. This is because Microsoft has favored usability over security. This is because the market has responded better to that tradeoff. This is because your mom doesn't want to have to hire a technical consultant to manage her IT infrastructure when all she wants to do is get email pictures of her grandkids. // /Let me see, have I got this right? /Apple software is inherently less safe than Linux/*BSD software. /This is because Apple has favored usability over security. /This is because the market has responded better to that tradeoff. /This is because your mom doesn't want to have to hire a technical /consultant to manage her IT infrastructure when all she wants to do is get /email pictures of her grandkids. / /Hmmm... / /The last three statements make perfect sense but that first /one just doesn't seem right. Could it be that ease-of-use /has nothing whatsoever to do with security? / /--Michael Dillon What I gathered was TSR80's are making a comback for their ease of use This is because Tandy/Radio Shack is the last bastion of hope This is perhaps because people like that retro feeling This is because your ex girlfriend suggested you buy this (TSR80) so she won't have to hire a technical consultant to have her pictures removed from www.revengeworld.com or www.mobog.com being webcams and TSR's are a no no. J. Oquendo =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Juvenal J. Oquendo GPG Key ID 0x51F9D78D Fingerprint 2A48 BA18 1851 4C99 CA22 0619 DB63 F2F7 51F9 D78D http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x51F9D78D sil @ politrix . orghttp://www.politrix.org sil @ infiltrated . net http://www.infiltrated.net
RE: MS is vulnerable
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Lixfeld Sent: January 29, 2004 10:58 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Vivien M.; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MS is vulnerable This is because your mom doesn't want to have to hire a technical consultant to manage her IT infrastructure when all she wants to do is get email pictures of her grandkids. Then yer mom should get a Mac. And if she's like my mom, she'll be in the aisle in the computer store (well, the big box electronics store, more realistically) and be like Why should I pay $2000 for this one when I can get 'a computer' for $500? [1] You can't expect people's mothers to actually know the differences between the different platforms, just like I'm sure that when most people's mothers shop for cars, they can't tell you the advantage of a particular engine type over another. They just end up picking based on price and ability to meet need, and for most mothers old-enough-to-have-NANOG-posting-kids out there, your $500 eMachines or whatever is more than enough. Expecting them to spend additional money to address a problem they don't understand is an unrealistic expectation. Vivien -- Vivien M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assistant System Administrator Dynamic Network Services, Inc. http://www.dyndns.org/
Control. (was Re: MS is vulnerable)
While acknowledging that I am falling for a troll does not excuse the act itself, I would like to float an idea I think is useful. If you look at security as control, then you can measure it as the ratio of controls to features. That is, for N in/egress points there are X active policy enforcement gateways. Similarly, for all functions in a peice of software, there are X configurable controls of their inputs and outputs and en/disabled-state. The reason we have security vulnerabilities is that we are building (or evolving) systems that lack adequate controls relative to the sheer volume of their features. While access to source-code does not guarantee that the user will exercise their control over the software, it does provide more granular control than say, a config file, or a clickity-click-configurator. The idea behind commercial software is that it is a service in which responsibility for control is maintained by the vendor, with a few options available to the user to customize. Open source provides total control to the user, limited only by their skills or access to information. Now, whether this control I am talking about is applicable to security as we understand it, I will leave that to the reader, but I would speculate that this simile could allow for something like cybernetics to be applied to evaluating the security of complex systems, and possibly offer more practical solutions than the political economy of security that characterizes alot of research in the field. Best, -j -- Jamie.Reid, CISSP, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Security Specialist, Information Protection Centre Corporate Security, MBS 416 327 2324 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/29/04 09:26am Microsoft software is inherently less safe than Linux/*BSD software. This is because Microsoft has favored usability over security. This is because the market has responded better to that tradeoff. This is because your mom doesn't want to have to hire a technical consultant to manage her IT infrastructure when all she wants to do is get email pictures of her grandkids. doug !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN HTMLHEAD META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=windows-1252 META content=MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226 name=GENERATOR/HEAD BODY style=MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt Tahoma; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1While acknowledging that I am falling for a troll does not excuse the act/FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1itself, I wouldnbsp;like to float an idea I think is useful. /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1If you look at security as control, then you can measure it as the ratio of /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1controlsnbsp;to features. That is, for N in/egress points there are X active policy /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1enforcement /FONTFONT size=1gateways. Similarly, fornbsp;all functions in a peice of software, /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1there are X configurable controls of their inputs and outputs and /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1en/disabled-state. /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1The reason we have security vulnerabilities is that we are building (or evolving)/FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1systems that lack adequate controls relative to the sheernbsp;volume of their features. /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1While access to source-code does not guarantee that the user will exercise theirnbsp;/FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1control /FONTFONT size=1over the software, it does provide more granular control than say, a config /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1file, or /FONTFONT size=1a clickity-click-configurator. The idea behind commercial software is that it /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1is a servicenbsp;in whichnbsp;responsibility fornbsp;control is maintained by the vendor, with /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1a few options available to the user to customize. Open source provides total/FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1control to the user, limited only by their skills or access to information. /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1Now, whether this control I am talking about is applicable to security as we /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1understand it, I will leave that to the reader, but I would speculate that this /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1similenbsp;could allow for something like cybernetics to be applied to evaluating /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1the security of complex systems, and possibly offernbsp;morenbsp;practical solutionsnbsp;/FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1than the political economy /FONTFONT size=1of security /FONTFONT size=1that characterizes alot of research in /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1the field. /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1Best, /FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1-j/FONT/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVFONT size=1/FONTnbsp;/DIV DIVBRnbsp;/DIV DIVnbsp;/DIV DIV--BRJamie.Reid, CISSP, A href=mailto:[EMAIL
Re: MS is vulnerable
On Jan 29, 2004, at 11:10 AM, Vivien M. wrote: Then yer mom should get a Mac. And if she's like my mom, she'll be in the aisle in the computer store (well, the big box electronics store, more realistically) and be like Why should I pay $2000 for this one when I can get 'a computer' for $500? [1] Agreed. That's where you educate your mom on why Macs are godly, PCs running windows are evil and Linux is a little to complex still for the end user, and bluntly doesn't look as pretty out of the box. If she squaks at the price, you tell her that you get what you pay for. How many times has her printer stopped working or she's been unable to download her pics or watch some video or a dvd or something else that XP touts as super easy, and integrated? Actually, since I got my first Mac last year, I've been barking up and down about how amazing it is. I told everyone I sold every PC I ever owned because I could do it all on my powerbook. They are all jealous. I had XP for my email, visio and word, *nix for my geek router perl stuff, another PC for my audio production stuff. All gone. All I have now is a 17 Powerbook. It's all I'll ever need. Well, no -- it's not. When I need something for music, I'll get a G5. Plain and simple, I will never own a PC again. It's funny, I went out of town for thanksgiving with my family. When we got to where we were going, my mom was complaining that her digital camera flash was full and she didn't have another one. I told her that I could download the pictures to my powerbook and email them to her later. As I was connecting the camera, she asked Well, don't you need to download and install the softw she stopped mid-sentence as the Mac found the PowerShot, opened iphoto and proceeded to download the pictures -- no software needed. She looked Jealous. When the last big MS virus/worm caused it's major shitstorm, my mom asked me if I ever get infected with viruses. I said no, I run a Mac. They are immune to these viruses. She looked jealous. Needless to say, a year after she bought herself her Dell with her 19 flat panel monitor, in a couple months, she'll be picking up her new 20 iMac. Now I'm jealous. I've got a couple other friends who are going to shitcan their PCs in favor of Macs. I agree, price is a big thing and it will continue to be. Until people can convince others to look beyond that, they are all going to be stuck in the MS world, plagued by all this badness wondering Is there something else better out there? All this, while us non-MS folks sit back with a big satisfying grin. You can't expect people's mothers to actually know the differences between the different platforms, just like I'm sure that when most people's mothers shop for cars, they can't tell you the advantage of a particular engine type over another. They just end up picking based on price and ability to meet need, and for most mothers old-enough-to-have-NANOG-posting-kids out there, your $500 eMachines or whatever is more than enough. Expecting them to spend additional money to address a problem they don't understand is an unrealistic expectation. Of course you can't expect them to know. That's where we come in; the free and the saved :) It's all about educating the less fortunate :) There is a very fine line between pay now, save later and save now, pay later. The latter almost always works out to cost a hell of a lot more than the former ever would have. (hypothetical) Buy the $12,000.00 (CDN) KIA with no snow tires, no ABS, no nothing. Drive somewhere in a snow storm, get stuck going up a hill, try to back down the hill, get sideswiped by the guy in the Touareg because he can't see your tiny little $12,000.00 KIA soap box, get flung over the guardrail, down the hill and into the valley. Pay the tow truck to come bail your ass out, pay your insurance deductible and the extra rates you are going to ensue because you just wrote off your car. Add all that up and compare that to the price of a brand new Touareg over 10 years. Guess what, your analogy just lost ground :) Vivien -- Vivien M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assistant System Administrator Dynamic Network Services, Inc. http://www.dyndns.org/
RE: MS is vulnerable
Hello, This MS v Unix debate is a very interesting discussion. However, I'd like to take a moment to inject my observations. Thank you for your time. 1. Microsoft's business plan (pre anti-trust) was in many ways similar to the Cuban socialist economic model. In Cuba, the means of production belong to the state. In Microsoft, the means of production belong to Microsoft. The economic power is not in the hands of the workers. Microsoft's users were slaves to Microsoft. Cuba's working class are slaves to the state. 2. In our beautiful democratic capitalist model Microsoft's business plan failed. The State injected themselves between Microsoft and the working class when it became apparent that Microsoft tried to control the means of production and enslave the user directly. Anti-trust is a nice insurance policy. Understand it well and beat it into the head of the nearest commie. 3. The Microsoft anti-trust action (In both the US and EU) and subsequent penalties help to preserve a basic and fundamental right; that is, the right to choose our own destiny. 4. Right now, at this very moment, you can place a Linux CD in your CD-ROM drive, reboot, and install Linux over the top of Windows. 5. The freedom of choice issue is substantial when we look at it in an IT consulting or IT management context. Our job is to analyze the situation, define the need, identify the resources, and propose a solution. The IT consultant/manager must objectively present the costs and benefits to the decision maker (customer, boss) and help them make the decision. If you are a Windows zealot and bias your observation based on your love/familiarity with Windows you will fail. If you are a Linux zealot and bias your observation based on your love/familiarity with Linux you will fail. Present the costs and benefits associated with each option objectively and help your organization or client grow. The whole windows/linux bashing mentality only creates more controversy rather than exposing the facts. Windows is still considered a sure thing by many/most organizations. In this economy, businesses are looking to preserve the status quo or gain an advantage, not create more risk or controversy. If you inject Linux into the situations that it is best suited to handle you will be an asset to the community. If you create more controversy you will be shunned by the community. Your mileage may vary. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MS is vulnerable Microsoft software is inherently less safe than Linux/*BSD software. This is because Microsoft has favored usability over security. This is because the market has responded better to that tradeoff. This is because your mom doesn't want to have to hire a technical consultant to manage her IT infrastructure when all she wants to do is get email pictures of her grandkids. Let me see, have I got this right? Apple software is inherently less safe than Linux/*BSD software. This is because Apple has favored usability over security. This is because the market has responded better to that tradeoff. This is because your mom doesn't want to have to hire a technical consultant to manage her IT infrastructure when all she wants to do is get email pictures of her grandkids. Hmmm... The last three statements make perfect sense but that first one just doesn't seem right. Could it be that ease-of-use has nothing whatsoever to do with security? --Michael Dillon
Re: MS is vulnerable
Actually, since I got my first Mac last year, I've been barking up and down about how amazing it is. I told everyone I sold every PC I ever owned because I could do it all on my powerbook. They are all jealous. I had XP for my email, visio and word, *nix for my geek router perl stuff, another PC for my audio production stuff. All gone. All I have now is a 17 Powerbook. It's all I'll ever need. Well, no -- it's not. When I need something for music, I'll get a G5. Plain and simple, I will never own a PC again. Of course the Powerbook will do all music stuff as well (unless you need the PCI based add in cards for protools!). Got a colleague who swapped hi twin 1GHZ PC for a 17 powerbook to do his video editing side business. Guess wot - the powerbook works much much better than his w2k based system!! -- Martin Hepworth Snr Systems Administrator Solid State Logic Tel: +44 (0)1865 842300 ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses and is believed to be clean. **
RE: MS is vulnerable
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Lixfeld Sent: January 29, 2004 11:55 AM To: Vivien M. Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MS is vulnerable Agreed. That's where you educate your mom on why Macs are godly, PCs running windows are evil and Linux is a little to complex still for the end user, and bluntly doesn't look as pretty out of the box. And when she asks why it can't be as simple as buying a microwave or a washing machine, what do I do? If she squaks at the price, you tell her that you get what you pay for. How many times has her printer stopped working or she's been unable to download her pics or watch some video or a dvd or something else that XP touts as super easy, and integrated? My mom still uses Windows Me (yes, I know... I wouldn't recommend 95/98/98SE/Me to anyone, but good luck convincing her to upgrade), and it works fine for her. She even manages to make it stay up for more than a few days, which is more than what I've ever managed to do with the 9X family. You're making the assumption here that there are real non-security, usability benefits to switching to a Mac/OS X. That's not what we're discussing here, we're talking about security. How can I argue to my mom that getting a Mac (which would prevent her from running the Windoze-only software she needs for work, FWIW) would let her printer keep working when the only printing problem she's had was caused by clogged print heads? You know, I don't want her to commit me to a mental hospital... Actually, since I got my first Mac last year, I've been barking up and down about how amazing it is. I told everyone I sold every PC I ever owned because I could do it all on my powerbook. They are all jealous. I had XP for my email, visio and word, *nix for my geek router perl stuff, another PC for my audio production stuff. All gone. All I have now is a 17 Powerbook. It's all I'll ever need. Well, no -- it's not. When I need something for music, I'll get a G5. Plain and simple, I will never own a PC again. Great. I'm glad that you have the ca$h to make the switch. Some of us, though, have too much invested in a platform to write it off and start over with another platform... especially when the current one meets our needs. It's funny, I went out of town for thanksgiving with my family. When we got to where we were going, my mom was complaining that her digital camera flash was full and she didn't have another one. I told her that I could download the pictures to my powerbook and email them to her later. As I was connecting the camera, she asked Well, don't you need to download and install the softw she stopped mid-sentence as the Mac found the PowerShot, opened iphoto and proceeded to download the pictures -- no software needed. She looked Jealous. WinXP will download pictures from cameras without the software, too. Most camera manufacturers downplay that ability to push their own software, though. When the last big MS virus/worm caused it's major shitstorm, my mom asked me if I ever get infected with viruses. I said no, I run a Mac. They are immune to these viruses. She looked jealous. Remember, Apple only has 3% market share. If that goes up to 20%, we'll see what happens to their 'secure' reputation... It's all about educating the less fortunate :) There is a very fine line between pay now, save later and save now, pay later. The latter almost always works out to cost a hell of a lot more than the former ever would have. (hypothetical) Buy the $12,000.00 (CDN) KIA with no snow tires, no ABS, no nothing. Drive somewhere in a snow storm, get stuck going up a hill, try to back down the hill, get sideswiped by the guy in the Touareg because he can't see your tiny little $12,000.00 KIA soap box, get flung over the guardrail, down the hill and into the valley. Pay the tow truck to come bail your ass out, pay your insurance deductible and the extra rates you are going to ensue because you just wrote off your car. Add all that up and compare that to the price of a brand new Touareg over 10 years. Guess what, your analogy just lost ground :) And guess what, many people can't afford Touaregs. You came up with an extreme example... And the fact that KIA dealers aren't out of business suggests that real life isn't that extreme. For many people who need a car to go to work and shop for groceries (which the $12K KIA will do just as well as a $170K Mercedes S class), they won't see what the advantage of a more expensive car is. I don't APPROVE of such attitude, believe me, and I think anyone who sees a KIA Rio as functionally equivalent to a Mercedes S class ought to go to a mental hospital, but it is a COMMON attitude among people lacking an interest in cars. And, honestly, if the purpose of a car is to go to work
Re: MS is vulnerable
On Jan 29, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Martin Hepworth wrote: Actually, since I got my first Mac last year, I've been barking up and down about how amazing it is. I told everyone I sold every PC I ever owned because I could do it all on my powerbook. They are all jealous. I had XP for my email, visio and word, *nix for my geek router perl stuff, another PC for my audio production stuff. All gone. All I have now is a 17 Powerbook. It's all I'll ever need. Well, no -- it's not. When I need something for music, I'll get a G5. Plain and simple, I will never own a PC again. Of course the Powerbook will do all music stuff as well (unless you need the PCI based add in cards for protools!). True, it will do all the audio stuff, to a point. It will do well for basic, intermediate and advanced production techniques, however when you start doing pro stuff with lots of filtering and effects, that's when it'll turn ugly and the 1Ghz bus on the G5 with the SATA drives will come in real handy! :) Got a colleague who swapped hi twin 1GHZ PC for a 17 powerbook to do his video editing side business. Guess wot - the powerbook works much much better than his w2k based system!! Funny that, eh? :) -- Martin Hepworth Snr Systems Administrator Solid State Logic Tel: +44 (0)1865 842300 ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses and is believed to be clean. **
RE: MS is vulnerable
Jason Lixfeld wrote: When we got to where we were going, my mom was complaining that her digital camera flash was full and she didn't have another one. I told her that I could download the pictures to my powerbook and email them to her later. As I was connecting the camera, she asked Well, don't you need to download and install the softw she stopped mid-sentence as the Mac found the PowerShot, opened iphoto and proceeded to download the pictures -- no software needed. She looked Jealous. If the Powershot was designed as a Mac-only camera, it's Canon's stupidity. I never used one, but when I plug my Sony cybershot to any PC it comes up right away without any software. Since Macs are available in stores, how do you explain that they don't get the lion's share of the market if they're so superior to the PeeCee as you claim? I have had an Apple computer for 25 years (1979 that is, and I still have my II plus). In the early eighties Apple dominated the personal computer market (yes there were TRS-80s and Commodore 64s, but Apple was the leader). Then they released the Apple ///, then the Lisa, then the Mac. At the same time, IBM released the PC, which was an overpriced piece of crud. Guess what: the Wintel platform became standard, over the established leader (Apple). Because IBM and Microsoft managed to produced what the market wanted to buy, instead of what a few gurus in an ivory tower in Cupertino thought what the ultimate PC would be. When the last big MS virus/worm caused it's major shitstorm, my mom asked me if I ever get infected with viruses. I said no, I run a Mac. They are immune to these viruses. Complete BS. There are Mac viruses allright, and the reason these worms target the Windows platform is simply because there are much more of them and therefore an Outlook worm is much more likely to succeed than a Mac worm. If Apple is still around with 3% of the market, it's because Bill Gates bailed them out as he wanted to keep a competitor alive when they were in the feds cross-hairs because of that monopoly thing. I'll tell you what: if you know how to make the Mac the dominant platform, go see Steve Jobs and ask for 100 million bucks in cash in exchange for the tip. And if you're not happy with Windows, you're free to write a competitive product to replace it. That's what Microsoft did to Apple 20 years ago, BTW. It's called market economy. Michel.
RE: MS is vulnerable
This MS v Unix debate is a very interesting discussion. To some of you. To others of us, it is a long-dead horse. However, I'd like to take a moment to inject my observations. I'd like the NANOG list to be restricted to Network Operations issues, or at the very least, Network Operations plus the politics and ranting thereof. Matthew Kaufman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MS is vulnerable
When the last big MS virus/worm caused it's major shitstorm, my mom asked me if I ever get infected with viruses. I said no, I run a Mac. They are immune to these viruses. Complete BS. There are Mac viruses allright, and the reason these worms target the Windows platform is simply because there are much more of them and therefore an Outlook worm is much more likely to succeed than a Mac worm. unlurk I'm sorry, but this is a very common misconception. There hasn't been one single Mac virus in several years, and I believe that one was a Microsoft Word macro virus. Or, maybe Autostart 9805 - but that was discovered in May, 1998. How many Windows viruses have shown up in the past few years? Apache powers far more websites than IIS, yet IIS has suffered a much larger number of exploits. The reason there aren't any Mac viruses most certainly is *not* because there are not as many of them. One could even go so far as to say that the Mac would be a more likely target because of Apple's security claims. It's a much more high-profile target. Imagine the boasting rights one would have if they could get a Mac virus to spread in these modern days! lurks once again -Jonathan
RE: [Nanog] RE: MS is vulnerable
-Original Message- From: Remko Lodder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: January 29, 2004 12:43 PM To: Vivien M.; 'Jason Lixfeld' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Nanog] RE: MS is vulnerable It's better to educate your mum how she keeps windows secure. It can be done, there are a lot of Windows machine in the wild out there that are actually almost up to date, (everyone should be that far), I've managed to educate my dad on the critical updates. He's better at it than me, actually - when the little icon shows up in the taskbar, he knows that he's supposed to click on it and do what it tells him to do. Then again, my dad also takes his car to the dealer the day after he gets a recall letter, so perhaps he's just more responsible than many... My mom's, though, tends to have the little icon staying in the tray, unless I'm visiting... but I'm still working on educating her :) Much easier to convince her to click that icon than to make her hand over her American Express for a shiny new iBook, anyways. let her run antivirus software, update it frequently, learn her how to handle unknown email, how to handle weird attachments, delete mails who look suspicious, install a decent windows firewall that allows you to select what should be openend and what should be closed (windows own firewall might be in help her) Antivirus software, these days, updates itself. If you run the home/SOHO Norton line, I believe that was added in the 2002 version - the 2001 reminded you to run LiveUpdate, but you actually had to go through the wizards and stuff each time. No more, now it updates itself and just pops up a little thingy saying it did so. The big problem with weird attachments is that they seem to come from a trusted sender. The usual excuse is but Joe wouldn't send me a virus, and it's very hard to make people understand that some computer out there, not even necessarily Joe's, is sending a virus in Joe's name without Joe knowing about it. At least these days, viruses aren't MS Word documents, which helps... No need for firewalls - I continue to maintain a FreeBSD firewall system at my parents' house, and I trust it a lot more than I'd trust a personal firewall. I'm weary about personal firewalls, though, because sometimes their interface causes problems (and a _properly_ locked down box shouldn't need one): eg, one relative who somehow got Norton's firewall to block outbound IE. Not easy to fix over the phone... Vivien -- Vivien M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assistant System Administrator Dynamic Network Services, Inc. http://www.dyndns.org/
RE: MS is vulnerable
Martin Hepworth wrote: Got a colleague who swapped hi twin 1GHZ PC for a 17 powerbook to do his video editing side business. Guess wot - the powerbook works much much better than his w2k based system!! Hmmm maybe you can show me where the Macintosh version for Adobe Premiere Pro is? (Adobe sales pitch: Adobe Premiere Pro software delivers real-time editing tools for professional video production). Michel.
RE: MS is vulnerable
Jonathan Nichols wrote: There hasn't been one single Mac virus in several years That's probably why there's a product called Norton Anti-virus for Mac? http://www.symantec.com/nav/nav_mac/index.html Michel.
RE: MS is vulnerable
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Nichols Sent: January 29, 2004 12:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MS is vulnerable The reason there aren't any Mac viruses most certainly is *not* because there are not as many of them. One could even go so far as to say that the Mac would be a more likely target because of Apple's security claims. It's a much more high-profile target. Imagine the boasting rights one would have if they could get a Mac virus to spread in these modern days! I'm sure boasting about writing a Mac virus will make you the big man on the block in your wing at Club Fed :) Seriously, boasting about writing damaging viruses is downright stupid... So the only way to make headlines is to write a really damaging virus that gets lots of publicity. Compare the following scenarios. Scenario A: Person writes damaging Mac virus. 1-3% of computers out there are infected. Network operators barely notice a blip on their MRTG Media doesn't pick up on the story, except for slashdot (and is /. really media?). Person feels his genius is underappreciated. Person posts to bugtraq to boast of his achievement. FBI shows up and takes him to Club Fed. Scenario B: Person writes damaging Windows virus/worm. 20% of computers out there are infected Network operators scramble on this mailing list to figure out the right ACL in vendor C, J, and others' syntax to slow down the thing. CNN makes it one of the top ten headlines on their web site TV news makes it the second story, right after the latest accusations that Bush lied about something in Iraq. Virus author quietly sits in the background smirking while he watches the TV news. Isn't B more fun for a virus author (and network operators' cardiologists)? Vivien -- Vivien M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assistant System Administrator Dynamic Network Services, Inc. http://www.dyndns.org/
Re: MS is vulnerable
On Jan 29, 2004, at 12:31 PM, Michel Py wrote: If the Powershot was designed as a Mac-only camera, it's Canon's stupidity. I never used one, but when I plug my Sony cybershot to any PC it comes up right away without any software. I should withdraw this comment. After I sent the message, I realized that my comment was unfounded. Sorry. Since Macs are available in stores, how do you explain that they don't get the lion's share of the market if they're so superior to the PeeCee as you claim? ... Guess what: the Wintel platform became standard, over the established leader (Apple). Because IBM and Microsoft managed to produced what the market wanted to buy, instead of what a few gurus in an ivory tower in Cupertino thought what the ultimate PC would be. Yes, and the guys in the white ivory tower realized that they err'd. I'm glad they have only 3% market share. I doubt they will ever get past 5-10% market share and that's not a bad thing, it's a good thing (tm) because that will mean they will never be plagued with the problems MS has. They (Apple) make a great product, IMO far superior to anything that can be found in PC land. To that end, I'm happy being one of the 3% watching the masses of the 97% struggle. When the last big MS virus/worm caused it's major shitstorm, my mom asked me if I ever get infected with viruses. I said no, I run a Mac. They are immune to these viruses. Complete BS. There are Mac viruses allright, and the reason these worms target the Windows platform is simply because there are much more of them and therefore an Outlook worm is much more likely to succeed than a Mac worm. They are immune to these viruses actually meant these viruses/works specifically causing the havoc in the last year or so. Sorry for not being more clear. If Apple is still around with 3% of the market, it's because Bill Gates bailed them out as he wanted to keep a competitor alive when they were in the feds cross-hairs because of that monopoly thing. I'll tell you what: if you know how to make the Mac the dominant platform, go see Steve Jobs and ask for 100 million bucks in cash in exchange for the tip. Jobs is hardly a competitor for Gates. 3% to what? 90%? I hardly call that competition. And if you're not happy with Windows, you're free to write a competitive product to replace it. That's what Microsoft did to Apple 20 years ago, BTW. It's called market economy. I don't need to write anything, I have it already, it runs on my powerbook. Like I said, if things hadn't happened the way they did, we would all be stuck using MS with even less alternatives. I say again, IMO Apple builds a superior product. It's because they only have 3% market share that product exists. I'm happy paying the premium because I get what I pay for. Michel.
Re: MS is vulnerable
Michel Py wrote: Jonathan Nichols wrote: There hasn't been one single Mac virus in several years That's probably why there's a product called Norton Anti-virus for Mac? http://www.symantec.com/nav/nav_mac/index.html Michel. Of course. Something needs to try and stop the flood of viruses hitting the PCs on the LAN. Symantec AV for the Mac is a great product in cross-platform environments and can prevent Windows viruses from accidentally being copied to a network volume or from being forwarded on via email. Macs are quite capable of integrating into a Windows network. Users can access their Macs via SMB. A Mac can still download a virus, but it's not going to affect it. It *can* affect the PC connecting to the share. It's just another line of defense, really.. (But someone is right.. we're all OT now..)
Re: MS is vulnerable
Your analogies suck for two reasons: 1: take a look at the huge problems apple is having with quality control and returns on the ibooks. They've finally started admitting there's a problem (after months and months of consumer outrage) http://www.apple.com/support/ibook/faq/ 2: VW build quality control and reliability sucks as well. Theres a long list of problems every Jetta owner will eventually see. Most are not covered by a recall or other warranty replacement. I can only imagine the problems the Toureg owners will be seeing in a brand new platform. Not to mention that most VW dealers are raging crooks, and VWOA does nothing to stop or discourage their theft and fraud. http://matt.ethereal.net/ggvw/ As an iBook owner, and a VW owner, I can say with authority that I'd think twice before making another Apple or VW purchase. The moral of the story is that theres always a downside, and you should take any evangelist's schpiel with a giant salt lick. matto On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Jason Lixfeld wrote: Agreed. That's where you educate your mom on why Macs are godly, PCs running windows are evil and Linux is a little to complex still for the end user, and bluntly doesn't look as pretty out of the box. [...] (hypothetical) Buy the $12,000.00 (CDN) KIA with no snow tires, no ABS, no nothing. Drive somewhere in a snow storm, get stuck going up a hill, try to back down the hill, get sideswiped by the guy in the Touareg because he can't see your tiny little $12,000.00 KIA soap box, get flung over the guardrail, down the hill and into the valley. Pay the tow truck to come bail your ass out, pay your insurance deductible and the extra rates you are going to ensue because you just wrote off your car. Add all that up and compare that to the price of a brand new Touareg over 10 years. Guess what, your analogy just lost ground :) [EMAIL PROTECTED]darwin Flowers on the razor wire/I know you're here/We are few/And far between/I was thinking about her skin/Love is a many splintered thing/Don't be afraid now/Just walk on in. #include disclaim.h
Re: MS is vulnerable
Vivien M. wrote: And when she asks why it can't be as simple as buying a microwave or a washing machine, what do I do? What does she do when she is buying a microve or a washing machine?
Re: MS is vulnerable
On Jan 29, 2004, at 1:29 PM, just me wrote: Your analogies suck for two reasons: 1: take a look at the huge problems apple is having with quality control and returns on the ibooks. They've finally started admitting there's a problem (after months and months of consumer outrage) http://www.apple.com/support/ibook/faq/ Try again. They are having quality control issues, grated. The thing is, the issue isn't huge. I read an article about this yesterday. Out of the 837,000 ibooks sold in 2003, 0.2% of all ibooks were affected. 2: VW build quality control and reliability sucks as well. Theres a long list of problems every Jetta owner will eventually see. Most are not covered by a recall or other warranty replacement. I can only imagine the problems the Toureg owners will be seeing in a brand new platform. Sure, no company goes without having a glitch in their production or something at some point -- that's life. Apple acknowledges their problems with their hardware, fixes it and makes sure it doesn't happen again. VW fixes their problems and makes sure they don't happen again. Microsoft acknowledges their problems and says F**k you, we're Microsoft. Deal with it. Not to mention that most VW dealers are raging crooks, and VWOA does nothing to stop or discourage their theft and fraud. *shrug* sorry about your luck. I've had nothing but good luck with my Rabbit that went 15 years on it's original clutch (and I drove like Andretti in those days). Aside from some body work on my GTI now, there aren't any crippling mechanical issues. You must just have really bad luck. http://matt.ethereal.net/ggvw/ As an iBook owner, and a VW owner, I can say with authority that I'd think twice before making another Apple or VW purchase. Too bad. The moral of the story is that theres always a downside, and you should take any evangelist's schpiel with a giant salt lick. As we have done here.. Now, then, I'm done. Back to on-topic stuff. matto On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Jason Lixfeld wrote: Agreed. That's where you educate your mom on why Macs are godly, PCs running windows are evil and Linux is a little to complex still for the end user, and bluntly doesn't look as pretty out of the box. [...] (hypothetical) Buy the $12,000.00 (CDN) KIA with no snow tires, no ABS, no nothing. Drive somewhere in a snow storm, get stuck going up a hill, try to back down the hill, get sideswiped by the guy in the Touareg because he can't see your tiny little $12,000.00 KIA soap box, get flung over the guardrail, down the hill and into the valley. Pay the tow truck to come bail your ass out, pay your insurance deductible and the extra rates you are going to ensue because you just wrote off your car. Add all that up and compare that to the price of a brand new Touareg over 10 years. Guess what, your analogy just lost ground :) [EMAIL PROTECTED]darwin Flowers on the razor wire/I know you're here/We are few/And far between/I was thinking about her skin/Love is a many splintered thing/Don't be afraid now/Just walk on in. #include disclaim.h
Re: MS is vulnerable
On 1/29/04 1:04 PM, Michel Py [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's probably why there's a product called Norton Anti-virus for Mac? http://www.symantec.com/nav/nav_mac/index.html Yep, and for the same type of people that buy rust protection on their new car. -- Robert Blayzor, BOFH INOC, LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP: http://www.inoc.net/~dev/ Key fingerprint = 1E02 DABE F989 BC03 3DF5 0E93 8D02 9D0B CB1A A7B0 Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers. - Leonard Brandwein
RE: MS is vulnerable
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr. Sent: January 29, 2004 1:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MS is vulnerable Vivien M. wrote: And when she asks why it can't be as simple as buying a microwave or a washing machine, what do I do? What does she do when she is buying a microve or a washing machine? Look for the one that provides the desired functionality for the lowest price? Without worrying about whether one brand's washing machine will somehow spew anthrax into the neighbourhood's water network, or into her clothes? Vivien -- Vivien M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assistant System Administrator Dynamic Network Services, Inc. http://www.dyndns.org/
