Re: from Dave Farber's list: Ireland to regulate peering
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sean Donelan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes If I think a grocery store in Ireland is charging too much for potatoes, can I ask the Irish government to order the grocery store to change its price on potatoes? If the grocery store had a monopoly on selling potatoes in Ireland, and after an investigation into the costs of supplying potatoes to the retail market it was shown that they were profiteering, you might find they'd say "yes". Although such mechanisms are normally reserved for utilities, and the Internet just came of age in as much as governments now regard it as an essential utility. Another recent example being: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-714188,00.html -- Roland Perry
Re: from Dave Farber's list: Ireland to regulate peering
Sean Donelan wrote: > If I'm willing to pay list price, I can get "peering" or an > interconnection with almost any ISP in the world. I can call the > sales offices of any provider, and on request most of them will sell > me a connection to their network. That isn't peering. That's transit or 'paid peering'. To me peering has always been an equitable exchange of traffic on a shared cost basis. UUNET and others have exploited their SMP over the last ten years to force foreign ISPs to pay them both ways to get to their content and access customers. That should be regulated (IMHO) - globally. I think we all know how much fun NDA based peering agreements have been and continue to be. "You are a net contene provider - pay to get to our access customers." "You are a net content consumer - pay to get to out content providers." "Our customers all pay us." Hmm. Never liked the abuse/misuse of a 'captive' customer base. > Ireland appears to be saying, if I don't like the price I can ask the > Irish government to order ISPs in Ireland to charge less. If I think > a grocery store in Ireland is charging too much for potatoes, can I > ask the Irish government to order the grocery store to change its > price > on potatoes? Actually, yes. At least AFAIK. In the UK you certainly can, but Eire has similar regulations as a result of the EU. From recent UK experience, the supermarkets were recently investigated if any had SMP on a regional basis, and if so should controls be imposed on both pricing (under as well as over) and also costs - what they pay to suppliers. Sadly, lobbying killed this issue - this time. Peter
Re: from Dave Farber's list: Ireland to regulate peering
On Sun, 15 Jun 2003, Steve Bellovin wrote: >ComReg is planning to apply the principles of voice interconnect to all >network types; this means that "operators of public communications >networks shall have a right, and when requested by other [operators], an >obligation to negotiate interconnection with each other for the purpose of >providing publicly available electronic communications services." In >effect, IP networks will have to peer with each other on request. > >Even worse, the "interconnect" (i.e. peering) prices will be subject to >review by the Irish regulator if either party feels that they're not being >offered a fair deal. This doesn't look like Ireland is regulating peering. They are regulating the price of Internet service. If I'm willing to pay list price, I can get "peering" or an interconnection with almost any ISP in the world. I can call the sales offices of any provider, and on request most of them will sell me a connection to their network. Ireland appears to be saying, if I don't like the price I can ask the Irish government to order ISPs in Ireland to charge less. If I think a grocery store in Ireland is charging too much for potatoes, can I ask the Irish government to order the grocery store to change its price on potatoes?
Re: from Dave Farber's list: Ireland to regulate peering
Roland Perry wrote: In practice, regulators will only intervene at all, if one of the ISPs has SMP. This is now almost impossible to achieve (tests of "dominance" apply) especially with the diversity of transit providers. An SMP ISP would have to dominate the *entire* market for wholesale transit in a country. Ireland differs significantly from the UK and many other european countries in that the number of ISPs and wholesale transit providers operating on the island is much smaller. While none of the ISPs has SMP designation, it is conceivable that it could happen, given the relative sizes of some of them. That said, though, it is extremely unlikely that the regulation engine is going to jump in and start dictating to the ISP's what they should or shouldn't do wrt IP peering. There has been an industry-run IX (INEX - http://www.inex.ie/) running for several years, and there have been remarkably few squabbles about peering during its lifetime. For this reason, if for no other, it is unlikely that SMP designation would serve any useful purpose in this instance. The ComReg directive is simply an implementation of directive 2002/19/EC, which will be applied in one form or another across all EU member states. These are personal opinions only. I do various work for the INEX, but do not speak for them. Nick
Re: from Dave Farber's list: Ireland to regulate peering
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Steve Bellovin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes In brief: New rules being put in place by the Irish telecoms regulator will regulate IP peering between ISPs as if it were a voice interconnect. I'd love to hear from any other IPers who know if this is being proposed anywhere else in Europe. As far as I know, this is unprecedented. This regime has probably been the case throughout Europe for ISPs that were locally licenced telcos, for four years [under the Interconnect Directive]. Not that many countries actually believed it or did anything. But there are now specific new Directives about this. The Irish telecoms regulator (ComReg) has announced a new set of licensing rules for telcos. The bad part is that the rules have been greatly expanded to include regulation of "all electronic communications networks", including (apparently) ISP networks and VPN operators. Indeed, this is just one instance of implementation of the new European Telecoms Directives across Europe, due this July. To see a FAQ on the UK's version (interconnection in section 5): http://www.oftel.gov.uk/publications/eu_directives/2003/ispfaq0303.htm The cherry on the cake is that ISPs can be designated as having "Significant Market Power" (this used to be defined as having 25% of a market, but the criteria are now more nebulous). In practice, regulators will only intervene at all, if one of the ISPs has SMP. This is now almost impossible to achieve (tests of "dominance" apply) especially with the diversity of transit providers. An SMP ISP would have to dominate the *entire* market for wholesale transit in a country. -- Roland Perry, Director of Public Policy, LINX.
Re: from Dave Farber's list: Ireland to regulate peering
The Australian regulator is also examining Internet Interconnection. See http://www.accc.gov.au/telco/int_intercon_280403.doc>. Mark.
from Dave Farber's list: Ireland to regulate peering
(apologies if this appears twice) >From: Alex French <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Ireland to regulate peering >In brief: New rules being put in place by the Irish telecoms regulator >will regulate IP peering between ISPs as if it were a voice interconnect. >I'd love to hear from any other IPers who know if this is being proposed >anywhere else in Europe. As far as I know, this is unprecedented. > >The Irish telecoms regulator (ComReg) has announced a new set of licensing >rules for telcos. The bad part is that the rules have been greatly >expanded to include regulation of "all electronic communications >networks", including (apparently) ISP networks and VPN operators. > >ComReg is planning to apply the principles of voice interconnect to all >network types; this means that "operators of public communications >networks shall have a right, and when requested by other [operators], an >obligation to negotiate interconnection with each other for the purpose of >providing publicly available electronic communications services." In >effect, IP networks will have to peer with each other on request. > >Even worse, the "interconnect" (i.e. peering) prices will be subject to >review by the Irish regulator if either party feels that they're not being >offered a fair deal. > >The cherry on the cake is that ISPs can be designated as having >"Significant Market Power" (this used to be defined as having 25% of a >market, but the criteria are now more nebulous). If you have SMP, you must >publish your network cost accounting as prove that the peering prices you >charge are cost-oriented (cost + a reasonable ROI) > >As I see it, this will lead to the collapse of the current peering/transit >negotiation process that ISPs have successfully used all over the world >for years. I don't even see how this would benefit smaller ISPs, since the >new rules are likely to discourage larger companies from entering this >market at all. At the very least, the regulation of peering rates has got >to hurt competition. > >The relevant documents are available at http://www.comreg.ie. Specific >links are > >http://www.comreg.ie/whats_new/default.asp?ctype=5&nid=101003 >http://www.comreg.ie/whats_new/default.asp?ctype=5&nid=100998 > --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb (me) http://www.wilyhacker.com (2nd edition of "Firewalls" book)
