Re: Fiber Plant Tracking Database

[Brad Kollmyer]

You could also look at OSPInSight:
http://ospinsight.com/osp/

Brad.

Why no SIDR for 174.128.31.0/24

[bmanning]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 07:29:55PM -0500, Leo Bicknell wrote:
> In a message written on Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 08:20:28AM +0900, Randy Bush 
> wrote:
> > of course, we're sorry we set off folk's broken alarm systems :-)  [ 
> > sense of humor required, leo ]
> 
> Ah, I get the smiley this time.  That's the indication you're not
> serious about the sentence you just wrote!  Ah ha!  So you're not
> sorry you've wasted a whole bunch of people's time today.
> 
> You really should make some friends Randy.  You know, the type of
> people who might have a network, and an ASN, and be ok with you
> injecting their ASN in wierd places and reporting back to you what
> happens.  You might even be able to then get them to provide data
> on what sensors alerted, why they alerted, and other useful things.
> That seems both a lot more useful and respectful than dragging
> random third parties into your research project by force and having
> them turn to 10,000 of their closest friends to figure out what's
> going on.
> 
> And no, I don't have a sense of humor about it.  44 messages of
> (mostly bad) haiku, and another 42 messages about the collateral
> damage of Randy's research project and how it pulls network engineers
> out of funerals.  Even at only 10 seconds per message to see there
> is no operationally useful content that's 14 minutes of my life
> wasted today I will never get back.
> 
> The S/N ratio of the list day has been 0.  I guess the up side is that
> is only down slightly from normal.
> 
> -- 
>Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org - CCIE 3440
> PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/


there is some indication that this prefix was assigned for 
a specific experiment, the experiment ran, results published,
and then the prefix was not properly reclaimed...   and so was
reused for something else.

sounds like a poster child for SIDR.


--bill

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Paul Wall]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Leo Bicknell  wrote:
> You really should make some friends Randy.

He is, on Second Life.

Seriously though... I've not seen any discussion of the application of
"allowas-in", a valid neighbor configuration under certain
topologies/scenarios, as relates to impact today.  Also, I'd agree
announcing other peoples' ASNs, without their permission, is in bad
form.  It's okay he's doing it to you, but I bet Randy would be a lot
less smiley if you were to announce random paths with 3130.

Drive Slow,
Paul Wall

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Jack Bates]

Nathan Ward wrote:
A suggestion I made to Randy at APRICOT in early 2007 when he was 
presenting his BGP beacon bogon filter detection stuff[1] was that he 
could use AS_PATH poisoning to detect broken filters and topology 
between two ASes, not just the best route back to him from each AS.


I think a lot of the work done actually provided good results. AS_PATH 
poisoning might have provided a few more clues on the return path.


One thing I didn't see in the interpretation was that while some AS's 
were inconsistent with outbound probes, this leads one to believe that 
the IPs selected for the probes were most likely firewalls providing 
bogon filtering, and not bogon-filtering at an AS level.


Having dealt with quite a few reachability issues in 69/8, I got to talk 
to some really redneck organizations that barely knew a thing about 
their firewall.


This promises to be a much more interesting study, though I suspect it's 
heavily scoped due to the time it takes to run tests without being 
dampened. I presume there's at least one route acting as an anchor to 
detect dampening. If not, we can send Randy off to do it again. ;)



Jack

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Leo Bicknell]

In a message written on Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 08:20:28AM +0900, Randy Bush wrote:
> of course, we're sorry we set off folk's broken alarm systems :-)  [ 
> sense of humor required, leo ]

Ah, I get the smiley this time.  That's the indication you're not
serious about the sentence you just wrote!  Ah ha!  So you're not
sorry you've wasted a whole bunch of people's time today.

You really should make some friends Randy.  You know, the type of
people who might have a network, and an ASN, and be ok with you
injecting their ASN in wierd places and reporting back to you what
happens.  You might even be able to then get them to provide data
on what sensors alerted, why they alerted, and other useful things.
That seems both a lot more useful and respectful than dragging
random third parties into your research project by force and having
them turn to 10,000 of their closest friends to figure out what's
going on.

And no, I don't have a sense of humor about it.  44 messages of
(mostly bad) haiku, and another 42 messages about the collateral
damage of Randy's research project and how it pulls network engineers
out of funerals.  Even at only 10 seconds per message to see there
is no operationally useful content that's 14 minutes of my life
wasted today I will never get back.

The S/N ratio of the list day has been 0.  I guess the up side is that
is only down slightly from normal.

-- 
   Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org - CCIE 3440
PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/


pgpd4oGLGpmvh.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Nathan Ward]

On 13/01/2009, at 12:32 PM, Jack Bates wrote:

I suspect part of this test is to determine if there are enough  
defaults to allow traffic through even though the route isn't being  
processed by certain networks (ie, it does not good to poison  
AS_PATH if defaults in general will allow DOS traffic to continue).



A suggestion I made to Randy at APRICOT in early 2007 when he was  
presenting his BGP beacon bogon filter detection stuff[1] was that he  
could use AS_PATH poisoning to detect broken filters and topology  
between two ASes, not just the best route back to him from each AS.


I think he thought it was a silly idea at the time, probably because  
of the massive amount of BGP updates that it would need. Maybe he  
changed his mind?


But yes, your suggestion seems reasonable as well - detect the  
existence of access lists, as opposed to prefix lists. The  
announcement is required to all the intermediary ASNs because of uRPF.


--
Nathan Ward

[1] 
http://www.apricot.net/apricot2007/presentation/conference/plenary3-randy-bogon.pdf

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Michael Hallgren]

Le lundi 12 janvier 2009 à 18:23 -0500, Joe Provo a écrit :
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 05:13:10PM -0600, Michienne Dixon wrote:
> [snip]
> > Easy - Refer all anomalies that do not the result of a direct outage to
> > Randy.  :D
> 
> ...if he's the contact or expressly mentioned in the registration, that
> makes sense.  Oh look, he is.

Should be sufficient, yes.

mh 

> 
> %whonum 174.128.31.0
> 
> OrgName:American Registry for Internet Numbers
> OrgID:  ARIN
> Address:3635 Concorde Parkway
> Address:Suite 200
> City:   Chantilly
> StateProv:  VA
> PostalCode: 20151
> Country:US
> 
> NetRange:   174.128.0.0 - 174.128.255.255
> CIDR:   174.128.0.0/16
> NetName:ARIN-REACHABILITY-TESTING
> NetHandle:  NET-174-128-0-0-1
> Parent: NET-174-0-0-0-0
> NetType:Direct Assignment
> NameServer: RIP.PSG.COM
> NameServer: NS0.REM.COM
> Comment:This IP address block is being used by ARIN to conduct
> reachability testing in networks 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8. Please
> contact ra...@psg.com with feedback or questions on the testing.
> RegDate:2008-02-27
> Updated:2008-02-27
> 
> OrgNOCHandle: ARINN-ARIN
> OrgNOCName:   ARIN NOC
> OrgNOCPhone:  +1-703-227-9840
> OrgNOCEmail:  n...@arin.net
> 
> OrgTechHandle: ARIN-HOSTMASTER
> OrgTechName:   Registration Services Department
> OrgTechPhone:  +1-703-227-0660
> OrgTechEmail:  hostmas...@arin.net
> 
> # ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2009-01-11 19:10
> # Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.
> %
> 
-- 
michael hallgren, mh2198-ripe


signature.asc
Description: Ceci est une partie de message	numériquement signée

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Jack Bates]

Paul Stewart wrote:

The alerts we got were because our AS number was showing up somewhere
else in the world.  Whether it's "legit" IP space or not - it still
warrants investigation on a high priority from my perspective.



Given the use of the ASN, I'm surprised that you place high priority of 
it showing up in other AS Paths. Of course, I can understand the issue 
of it indicates that a network has definitely isolated itself on purpose 
from your network (if your network runs without a default).


I suspect part of this test is to determine if there are enough defaults 
to allow traffic through even though the route isn't being processed by 
certain networks (ie, it does not good to poison AS_PATH if defaults in 
general will allow DOS traffic to continue).


Path poisoning has been around awhile and is even taught in classes of 
some router vendors as a way to alter traffic patterns. Of course, your 
AS may never have come up in such a situation. What Randy is doing, I 
suspect, is seeing if it does have any applicable uses, or if their 
assumptions are wrong.



I have nothing against Randy or anyone else involved with this project
.. to be quite honest I'd be interesting in seeing/hearing the results
... but I believe a more careful approach is in order with consideration
for the folks effected.  



What you request would probably cost more money and time than the 
project can afford. Not saying that such time and money shouldn't be 
spent, but it is what it is. For you, an email to nanog might suffice, 
but I doubt that every ASN which is being path poisoned is going to have 
representatives on nanog, or even reading mail at their whois contacts.



Jack

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Joe Provo]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 05:13:10PM -0600, Michienne Dixon wrote:
[snip]
> Easy - Refer all anomalies that do not the result of a direct outage to
> Randy.  :D

...if he's the contact or expressly mentioned in the registration, that
makes sense.  Oh look, he is.

%whonum 174.128.31.0

OrgName:American Registry for Internet Numbers
OrgID:  ARIN
Address:3635 Concorde Parkway
Address:Suite 200
City:   Chantilly
StateProv:  VA
PostalCode: 20151
Country:US

NetRange:   174.128.0.0 - 174.128.255.255
CIDR:   174.128.0.0/16
NetName:ARIN-REACHABILITY-TESTING
NetHandle:  NET-174-128-0-0-1
Parent: NET-174-0-0-0-0
NetType:Direct Assignment
NameServer: RIP.PSG.COM
NameServer: NS0.REM.COM
Comment:This IP address block is being used by ARIN to conduct
reachability testing in networks 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8. Please
contact ra...@psg.com with feedback or questions on the testing.
RegDate:2008-02-27
Updated:2008-02-27

OrgNOCHandle: ARINN-ARIN
OrgNOCName:   ARIN NOC
OrgNOCPhone:  +1-703-227-9840
OrgNOCEmail:  n...@arin.net

OrgTechHandle: ARIN-HOSTMASTER
OrgTechName:   Registration Services Department
OrgTechPhone:  +1-703-227-0660
OrgTechEmail:  hostmas...@arin.net

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2009-01-11 19:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.
%

-- 
 RSUC / GweepNet / Spunk / FnB / Usenix / SAGE

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Randy Bush]

Now that doesn't mean other operators can't put in a lightning talk
about the impact or 'event' this triggered in their own NOC environments
along with what they recommend operators do to reduce the spun cycles 


great idea!

as i was about to send to someone else with a thinner skin than you :)

path poisoning is used operationally, though we suspect somewhat 
ill-advisedly.  but the proof of the latter will be in the pudding.


imiho, alarm systems that raise a real alert about my asn being in the 
as path of *someone else's prefix* are systems i would repair.  at most, 
it's a "when you're bored, take a look at this strangeness."


of course, we're sorry we set off folk's broken alarm systems :-)  [ 
sense of humor required, leo ]


and, fwiw, i liked the haiku!

randy

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Paul Stewart]

The alerts we got were because our AS number was showing up somewhere
else in the world.  Whether it's "legit" IP space or not - it still
warrants investigation on a high priority from my perspective.

I have nothing against Randy or anyone else involved with this project
.. to be quite honest I'd be interesting in seeing/hearing the results
... but I believe a more careful approach is in order with consideration
for the folks effected.

Paul


-Original Message-
From: deles...@gmail.com [mailto:deles...@gmail.com]
Sent: January 12, 2009 6:00 PM
To: Michienne Dixon; NANOG list
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

This was a test using unassigned IP block, unless I'm reading it wrong.
If a noc alerted on this it should have still be a low priority issue.
I don't see any issues with the way this was carried out at all.

-jim
--Original Message--
From: Michienne Dixon
To: NANOG list
Subject: RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24
Sent: Jan 12, 2009 6:55 PM


But isn't this method kind of related to how an network from the
Mediterranean/Mid-east went about blocking what they felt was
undesirable/offensive content from entering their network?

-
Michienne Dixon
Network Administrator
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org
(816) 412-7990

-Original Message-
From: Randy Bush [mailto:ra...@psg.com]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 4:47 PM
To: Paul Stewart
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

On 09.01.13 07:42, Paul Stewart wrote:
> For us, it was annoying - we look for prefix hijackings or what appear

> to be.

i think herein lies the rub.  it is not prefix hijacking and in no way
should it appear that way to you.  i suggest tuning your detectors.  i
am told that path poisoning is used (futilely, we hope to show) in day
to day ops by folk to try to avert dos attacks.

randy




Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network






"The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which 
it is addressed and contains confidential and/or privileged material. If you 
received this in error, please contact the sender immediately and then destroy 
this transmission, including all attachments, without copying, distributing or 
disclosing same. Thank you."

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Michienne Dixon]

Now that doesn't mean other operators can't put in a lightning talk
about the impact or 'event' this triggered in their own NOC environments
along with what they recommend operators do to reduce the spun cycles



Easy - Refer all anomalies that do not the result of a direct outage to
Randy.  :D

-
Michienne Dixon
Network Administrator
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org
(816) 412-7990

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Ren Provo]

Fair enough.  Unfortunate, and I'll miss you in .DR, but understood.

Now that doesn't mean other operators can't put in a lightning talk about
the impact or 'event' this triggered in their own NOC environments along
with what they recommend operators do to reduce the spun cycles 

Cheers, -ren

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Randy Bush  wrote:

>  Could you please put in a lightning talk for this experiment? It would
>> be great to hear more about this in .DR. We're accepting submissions now
>> for lightning talks on Monday the 26th of January.
>>
>
> a - i will not be in dr.  i really wanted to support the dr meeting,
>but it's hard to justify after four years of service.  maybe i'll
>make the next one.
>
> b - we can not present results before papers are submitted.
>
> c - we hope to present results at ops fora, nanog included, if they
>are good enough to warrant as opposed to just good sensationalist
>blah blah.
>
> randy
>

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Michienne Dixon]

I sit corrected.  I thought they had started announcing someone else's
AS and network range. 


-
Michienne Dixon
Network Administrator
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org
(816) 412-7990

-Original Message-
From: Patrick W. Gilmore [mailto:patr...@ianai.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 5:00 PM
To: NANOG list
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

On Jan 12, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Michienne Dixon wrote:

> But isn't this method kind of related to how an network from the 
> Mediterranean/Mid-east went about blocking what they felt was 
> undesirable/offensive content from entering their network?

No.

-- 

TTFN,
patrick

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[deleskie]

This was a test using unassigned IP block, unless I'm reading it wrong.  If a 
noc alerted on this it should have still be a low priority issue.  I don't see 
any issues with the way this was carried out at all.

-jim
--Original Message--
From: Michienne Dixon
To: NANOG list
Subject: RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24
Sent: Jan 12, 2009 6:55 PM

 
But isn't this method kind of related to how an network from the
Mediterranean/Mid-east went about blocking what they felt was
undesirable/offensive content from entering their network? 

-
Michienne Dixon
Network Administrator
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org
(816) 412-7990

-Original Message-
From: Randy Bush [mailto:ra...@psg.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 4:47 PM
To: Paul Stewart
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

On 09.01.13 07:42, Paul Stewart wrote:
> For us, it was annoying - we look for prefix hijackings or what appear

> to be.

i think herein lies the rub.  it is not prefix hijacking and in no way
should it appear that way to you.  i suggest tuning your detectors.  i
am told that path poisoning is used (futilely, we hope to show) in day
to day ops by folk to try to avert dos attacks.

randy




Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

On Jan 12, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Michienne Dixon wrote:


But isn't this method kind of related to how an network from the
Mediterranean/Mid-east went about blocking what they felt was
undesirable/offensive content from entering their network?


No.

--
TTFN,
patrick

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Randy Bush]

Could you please put in a lightning talk for this experiment? It would
be great to hear more about this in .DR. We're accepting submissions now
for lightning talks on Monday the 26th of January.


a - i will not be in dr.  i really wanted to support the dr meeting,
but it's hard to justify after four years of service.  maybe i'll
make the next one.

b - we can not present results before papers are submitted.

c - we hope to present results at ops fora, nanog included, if they
are good enough to warrant as opposed to just good sensationalist
blah blah.

randy

Re: Cogent (was the poetry thread)

[Jeffrey Lyon]

Patrick,

I'd contend that using Cogent is a good way to reduce your cost of
doing business while maintaining an acceptable level of service, not
to necessarily improve reach. If your network absolutely must have the
best routes you may be better off adding some other providers
regardless.

Best regards, Jeff

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore  wrote:
> On Jan 12, 2009, at 2:53 PM, Martin List-Petersen wrote:
>>
>> Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jan 12, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:

 Jeffrey Lyon wrote:
>
> Mike,
> Aside from the occasional peering wars i've never had or witnessed any
> serious issues with Cogent. If you want some redundancy you might also
> try some other similarly priced providers like WBS Connect, HE, or
> BtN.

 (resend due to subject filter)

 Plus if you had direct connectivity to Cogent, their peering status with
 others wouldn't affect you anymore. Personally, I've seriously
 considered this as a reason to get a connection from Cogent.
>>>
>>> If you are not single-homed, you have no issues reaching Cogent even
>>> during a "peering war" - unless Cogent depeers / gets depeered from
>>> -both- (all) of your upstreams at the same time.  So what value is there
>>> to add Cogent?
>>
>> The value is, that Cogent pretty much is the cheapest transit you can
>> get out there vs. paying a premium for carriers that have less clue and
>> more outages.
>
> Sorry for being imprecise.  I meant that adding Cogent does not
> significantly improve your reachability.  Choosing to buy from Cogent
> because they depeer / get depeered occasionally is silly, IMHO.
>
> To be clear, I am making no comment on Cogent's overall performance.  If you
> find value in adding a provider for other reasons (cost, performance, etc.),
> I would not argue against it.
>
> --
> TTFN,
> patrick
>
>
>



-- 
Jeffrey Lyon, Leadership Team
jeffrey.l...@blacklotus.net | http://www.blacklotus.net
Black Lotus Communications of The IRC Company, Inc.

Look for us at HostingCon 2009 in Washington, DC on August 10th - 12th
at Booth #401.

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Michienne Dixon]

 
But isn't this method kind of related to how an network from the
Mediterranean/Mid-east went about blocking what they felt was
undesirable/offensive content from entering their network? 

-
Michienne Dixon
Network Administrator
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org
(816) 412-7990

-Original Message-
From: Randy Bush [mailto:ra...@psg.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 4:47 PM
To: Paul Stewart
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

On 09.01.13 07:42, Paul Stewart wrote:
> For us, it was annoying - we look for prefix hijackings or what appear

> to be.

i think herein lies the rub.  it is not prefix hijacking and in no way
should it appear that way to you.  i suggest tuning your detectors.  i
am told that path poisoning is used (futilely, we hope to show) in day
to day ops by folk to try to avert dos attacks.

randy

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Ren Provo]

Hi Randy (and the cast of characters on this thread),

Could you please put in a lightning talk for this experiment?  It would be
great to hear more about this in .DR.  We're accepting submissions now for
lightning talks on Monday the 26th of January.  http://www.nanogpc.org is
the best place.  Cheers, -ren

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Randy Bush  wrote:

> On 09.01.13 07:42, Paul Stewart wrote:
>
>> For us, it was annoying - we look for prefix hijackings or what appear
>> to be.
>>
>
> i think herein lies the rub.  it is not prefix hijacking and in no way
> should it appear that way to you.  i suggest tuning your detectors.  i am
> told that path poisoning is used (futilely, we hope to show) in day to day
> ops by folk to try to avert dos attacks.
>
> randy
>
>

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Michienne Dixon]

The only exception I took with this morning's exercise is that had I
known that Mr. Bush was doing legitimate testing I would have allocated
my time differently.
I would consider this analogous to a customer testing their home alarm
system and not letting the alarm company know about the test.  The alarm
company is going to investigate and I would hope even attempt to call
the customer.  Upon not being able to reach the customer they decide to
err on the side of caution and dispatch someone to investigate.  

As Mr. Bush said, tools can be used for good or bad.  If someone was
using my AS to hijack IP space that belonged someone else, I would want
to know about it. Would that not be akin to using a stolen identity to
commit a crime?

Mr. Bush - I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here.  (Un)fortunately,
you have given a lot of us something to discuss today.  ;)


-
Michienne Dixon
Network Administrator
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org
(816) 412-7990

-Original Message-
From: Joe Abley [mailto:jab...@hopcount.ca] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 3:52 PM
To: Patrick W. Gilmore
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24


On 2009-01-12, at 16:16, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:

> People have been doing it forever.  However, it has been considered 
> sketchy at best.

This all seems highly subjective. Considered that way by some, sure
(including you, it seems).

In my experience prepending someone else's AS to a prefix has only been
useful operationally only as a short-term, emergency measure (e.g. when
trying to avoid a black-hole between two remote ASes, neither of whom
shows any signs of fixing the problem).

Randy's application, and Lorenzo's before him also seem like short- term
applications designed to explore answering operational questions.

Just because something is generally not used, or even if it's only worth
using in an emergency, doesn't make it "sketchy".

Most knee-jerk reactions to AS_PATH manipulation sound to me like fear
of the unusual.


Joe

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Randy Bush]

On 09.01.13 07:42, Paul Stewart wrote:

For us, it was annoying - we look for prefix hijackings or what appear
to be.


i think herein lies the rub.  it is not prefix hijacking and in no way 
should it appear that way to you.  i suggest tuning your detectors.  i 
am told that path poisoning is used (futilely, we hope to show) in day 
to day ops by folk to try to avert dos attacks.


randy

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Paul Stewart]

For us, it was annoying - we look for prefix hijackings or what appear
to be.  In this case it was a false alarm but one that consumed NOC
resources to troubleshoot and resolve... later to find out it was an
"academic test" and nothing was really going on.

Paul


-Original Message-
From: Christian Koch [mailto:christ...@broknrobot.com]
Sent: January 12, 2009 5:34 PM
To: NANOG list
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24


>
> ] part of the experiment is to measure the difference between the
amount
> ] of nanog mail lorenzo drew in 2005 by pre-announcing with the amount
we
> ] get in 2009 while not pre-announcing.  :)
>
> This statement is an admission that he set out to annoy people,
> annoy them enough they would complain on a  public mailing list.
> More over, I can't see how any researcher could use "the amount of
> nanog mail" as a valid indicator of anything.  It has as much to
> do with how many engineers are bored on a given day as it does with
> the severity of the problem.
>
> So the goal of this research seemed to be to see how many people
> the researchers could panic, and then see how 10,000 people reacted
> to the panic.  Sounds a lot like yelling "fire" in a crowded movie
> house just to "research" what the results might be, and then measuring
> success by the number of words in the article on the front page of
> the paper, or perhaps the number of people trampled to death, or
> both.
>

maybe not so much annoy people, rather see how many people actually
noticed
the announcements and were aware that their AS was being used as an
origin in the path







"The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which 
it is addressed and contains confidential and/or privileged material. If you 
received this in error, please contact the sender immediately and then destroy 
this transmission, including all attachments, without copying, distributing or 
disclosing same. Thank you."

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Christian Koch]

>
> ] part of the experiment is to measure the difference between the amount
> ] of nanog mail lorenzo drew in 2005 by pre-announcing with the amount we
> ] get in 2009 while not pre-announcing.  :)
>
> This statement is an admission that he set out to annoy people,
> annoy them enough they would complain on a  public mailing list.
> More over, I can't see how any researcher could use "the amount of
> nanog mail" as a valid indicator of anything.  It has as much to
> do with how many engineers are bored on a given day as it does with
> the severity of the problem.
>
> So the goal of this research seemed to be to see how many people
> the researchers could panic, and then see how 10,000 people reacted
> to the panic.  Sounds a lot like yelling "fire" in a crowded movie
> house just to "research" what the results might be, and then measuring
> success by the number of words in the article on the front page of
> the paper, or perhaps the number of people trampled to death, or
> both.
>

maybe not so much annoy people, rather see how many people actually noticed
the announcements and were aware that their AS was being used as an
origin in the path

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Randy Bush]

] part of the experiment is to measure the difference between the amount
] of nanog mail lorenzo drew in 2005 by pre-announcing with the amount we
] get in 2009 while not pre-announcing.  :)

This statement is an admission that he set out to annoy people,
annoy them enough they would complain on a  public mailing list.


while you managed to quote the smiley, you somehow did not manage to 
parse it.  do not leave your sense of humor at the door with your guns.


randy

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Leo Bicknell]

In a message written on Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 04:51:36PM -0500, Joe Abley wrote:
> Randy's application, and Lorenzo's before him also seem like short- 
> term applications designed to explore answering operational questions.
> 
> Just because something is generally not used, or even if it's only  
> worth using in an emergency, doesn't make it "sketchy".
> 
> Most knee-jerk reactions to AS_PATH manipulation sound to me like fear  
> of the unusual.

I have no issues with people doing research and reporting on the
findings, however I think this statement by Randy is where I believe
it went over the line:

] part of the experiment is to measure the difference between the amount
] of nanog mail lorenzo drew in 2005 by pre-announcing with the amount we
] get in 2009 while not pre-announcing.  :)

This statement is an admission that he set out to annoy people,
annoy them enough they would complain on a  public mailing list.
More over, I can't see how any researcher could use "the amount of
nanog mail" as a valid indicator of anything.  It has as much to
do with how many engineers are bored on a given day as it does with
the severity of the problem.

So the goal of this research seemed to be to see how many people
the researchers could panic, and then see how 10,000 people reacted
to the panic.  Sounds a lot like yelling "fire" in a crowded movie
house just to "research" what the results might be, and then measuring
success by the number of words in the article on the front page of
the paper, or perhaps the number of people trampled to death, or
both.

-- 
   Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org - CCIE 3440
PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/


pgpbtL25XWNMU.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Joe Provo]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 04:51:36PM -0500, Joe Abley wrote:
[snip]
> In my experience prepending someone else's AS to a prefix has only  
> been useful operationally only as a short-term, emergency measure  
> (e.g. when trying to avoid a black-hole between two remote ASes,  
> neither of whom shows any signs of fixing the problem).
> 
> Randy's application, and Lorenzo's before him also seem like short- 
> term applications designed to explore answering operational questions.

Nit, weird paths (this one) and long paths (Lorenzo's) are different.
There were known BGP implementations which choked and died on long
as-paths, which (w|c)ould trigger outages. Weird paths which appear
to involve your network triggers -at least- work.

> Just because something is generally not used, or even if it's only  
> worth using in an emergency, doesn't make it "sketchy".

Given the prevalence of BGP community-based remote control over your
direct neighbor's neighbors, it has seemed to (to me) to decrease. 
Using a label allocated to someone else does indeed seem sketchy to 
many of us; while the injector knows they are doing it and the injectee
can figure it out, there's a heck of a lot of other parties (and 
archives) without context. Encouraging the use of such approaches, 
rather than encouraging providers to provision customers without the 
ability to forge AS paths, is a step in the wrong direction. 

> Most knee-jerk reactions to AS_PATH manipulation sound to me like fear  
> of the unusual.
 
Less fear and more annoyance; the waters are muddied and the unusual 
requires investigation, and in some cases explanation internally &
externally.  Propagating bad table hygiene doesn't promote network 
use, increase stability/robustness, or anything that could be viewed 
as best practice.

All IMO, of course.

Cheers,

Joe
-- 
 RSUC / GweepNet / Spunk / FnB / Usenix / SAGE

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Joe Abley]

On 2009-01-12, at 16:16, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:

People have been doing it forever.  However, it has been considered  
sketchy at best.


This all seems highly subjective. Considered that way by some, sure  
(including you, it seems).


In my experience prepending someone else's AS to a prefix has only  
been useful operationally only as a short-term, emergency measure  
(e.g. when trying to avoid a black-hole between two remote ASes,  
neither of whom shows any signs of fixing the problem).


Randy's application, and Lorenzo's before him also seem like short- 
term applications designed to explore answering operational questions.


Just because something is generally not used, or even if it's only  
worth using in an emergency, doesn't make it "sketchy".


Most knee-jerk reactions to AS_PATH manipulation sound to me like fear  
of the unusual.



Joe

Re: Fiber Plant Tracking Database

[Justin M. Streiner]

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009, Soucy, Ray wrote:


Does anyone know of any software offerings to track your fiber plant
(inside and outdoor) besides the OptiCon Systems offering (formerly
Corning)?


Mapcom came in awhile back to give us a presentation on their platform. 
It looked decent, but we ended up not buying it.


jms

Re: recommendation for SIP integration

[Andrey Gordon]

Does anyone have any opinion on bandwidth.com as a SIP trunk provider by any
chance?

-
Andrey Gordon [andrey.gor...@gmail.com]

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Randy Bush]

Might be helpful to update the WHOIS data:


arin's good folk say it will be updated in tonight's (stateside night) run.

randy

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Martin Hannigan]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Randy Bush  wrote:

> On 09.01.13 05:32, Michienne Dixon wrote:
>
>> guy's gotta sleep some time.  it's 04:40 here.
>>>
>> My apologizes for jumping the gun.
>>
>
> i demand a full refund!  :)
>
> but that's about the best use for guns i can think of.
>
> randy
>
>
Might be helpful to update the WHOIS data:

NetRange:   174.128.0.0
 - 174.128.255.255

CIDR:   174.128.0.0/16
NetName:ARIN-REACHABILITY-TESTING

NetHandle:  NET-174-128-0-0-1

Parent: NET-174-0-0-0-0

NetType:Direct Assignment
NameServer: RIP.PSG.COM
NameServer: NS0.REM.COM
Comment:This IP address block is being used by ARIN to conduct
reachability testing in networks 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8. Please
contact ra...@psg.com with feedback or questions on the testing.
RegDate:2008-02-27
Updated:2008-02-27





-- 
Martin Hannigan   mar...@theicelandguy.com
p: +16178216079

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Randy Bush]

If this were not Randy doing a research project, but, say, Cogent
prepending the ASN of $LATEST_DEPEERED_NETWORK on announcements to
Verio, how different would the tone of this thread have been?


yep, tools can be used for both good and bad.

randy

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Florian Weimer]

* Jack Bates:

> Florian Weimer wrote:
>> I think this is over the line.  You can't put other people's IDs into
>> routing data on production networks.  (Well, technically you can,
>> obviously, but you shouldn't.)
>
> Actually, the placement of the ASN is exactly what they need to do the
> test, as it is treated as a routing loop and discarded.

Sorry, I fail to see how apparent necessity justifies anything,
especially in an academic context.

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Joe Abley wrote:

On 2009-01-12, at 15:39, Florian Weimer wrote:


So does "academic" mean "unethical" these days?

I think this is over the line.  You can't put other people's IDs into
routing data on production networks.  (Well, technically you can,
obviously, but you shouldn't.)


The AS_PATH attribute is a loop-avoidance mechanism, not a signature  
on a cheque.


AS_PATH prepending with your own and with others' AS numbers (the  
latter intended to effect "don't let this prefix leak into that AS")  
has been sitting in the inter-domain traffic engineering toolbox for  
years.


I see no lack of ethics in the simple act of the as-path prepend as  
part of a route export policy.


People have been doing it forever.  However, it has been considered  
sketchy at best.


If this were not Randy doing a research project, but, say, Cogent  
prepending the ASN of $LATEST_DEPEERED_NETWORK on announcements to  
Verio, how different would the tone of this thread have been?


If A cannot / should not do it, then the same should go for B.

--
TTFN,
patrick

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Joe Abley]

On 2009-01-12, at 15:39, Florian Weimer wrote:


So does "academic" mean "unethical" these days?

I think this is over the line.  You can't put other people's IDs into
routing data on production networks.  (Well, technically you can,
obviously, but you shouldn't.)


The AS_PATH attribute is a loop-avoidance mechanism, not a signature  
on a cheque.


AS_PATH prepending with your own and with others' AS numbers (the  
latter intended to effect "don't let this prefix leak into that AS")  
has been sitting in the inter-domain traffic engineering toolbox for  
years.


I see no lack of ethics in the simple act of the as-path prepend as  
part of a route export policy.



Joe

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Jack Bates]

Florian Weimer wrote:

I think this is over the line.  You can't put other people's IDs into
routing data on production networks.  (Well, technically you can,
obviously, but you shouldn't.)


Actually, the placement of the ASN is exactly what they need to do the 
test, as it is treated as a routing loop and discarded. This allows for 
fancy reachability tests while a portion of the network cannot see the 
route in question.


Of course, people track their ASN usage these days and get red alarms 
when their ASN shows up in ways unexpected. I'm not completely sure why 
the ASN matters, except it's probably just a bonus service to route 
hijacking detection (since ASN hijacking doesn't exactly serve a purpose 
except to limit the route being advertised and perhaps leave someone 
complaining to the wrong person if the hijacker is doing bad things).



Jack

Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[kris foster]

Hi everyone

The Mailing List Committee would like to remind everyone that threads  
of this sort are not operationally relevant and go against the spirit  
of the AUP [1]. Haikus, one line jokes, and "me too" replies simply do  
not provide enough information for each of NANOG's 10,000 subscribers  
to determine if there is something operational they should be acting on.


The MLC will be contacting the majority of participants in this thread  
to remind them of this.


Please respect the inboxes of others.

Kris Foster
MLC Chair

[1]  #2: Postings of issues inconsistent with the charter are
prohibited.
Mailing list AUP: http://www.nanog.org/mailinglist/
NANOG Charter: http://www.nanog.org/governance/charter/

Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Jack Bates]

Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:

On Jan 12, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Soucy, Ray wrote:


We peer with Cogent.  They are very competitive in terms of pricing.
To be honest, Cogent has been pretty good to us.  As long as you have a
2nd peer (which it sounds like you do) for backup I'd say they're a
pretty safe bet.


I think you mean s/peer/transit.



Perhaps he is running PPP, and meant peer. :P

http://www.freesoft.org/CIE/RFC/1661/3.htm

Obviously he's paying for transit with his peer, which is still 
technically a peering agreement; just not a free one. ;)

Re: Fiber Plant Tracking Database

[Tim Jackson]

Lots of companies offer stuff like this...

http://www.mapcom.con/
http://www.sapience360.com/
http://www.innovsys.com/
http://www.telecom-america.com/


--
Tim


On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Soucy, Ray  wrote:

> Does anyone know of any software offerings to track your fiber plant
> (inside and outdoor) besides the OptiCon Systems offering (formerly
> Corning)?
>
>
>
> Ray Soucy
>
> Communications Specialist
>
>
>
> +1 (207) 561-3526
>
>
>
> Communications and Network Services
>
>
>
> University of Maine System
>
> http://www.maine.edu/
>
>
>
>

RE: Fiber Plant Tracking Database

[Frank Bulk]

We use the Innovative Systems mapping product:
http://www.innovsys.com/Products/eLation/Features.html

It may be too comprehensive/expensive for your needs.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Soucy, Ray [mailto:r...@maine.edu] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:36 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Fiber Plant Tracking Database

Does anyone know of any software offerings to track your fiber plant
(inside and outdoor) besides the OptiCon Systems offering (formerly
Corning)?

Ray Soucy
Communications Specialist

+1 (207) 561-3526
Communications and Network Services
University of Maine System
http://www.maine.edu/

RE:

[Blake Pfankuch]

Laughing at me.  You make me cry on the inside.

-Original Message-
From: Aaron Imbrock [mailto:aimbr...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:12 PM
To: NANOG@nanog.org
Subject:

Stop

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Florian Weimer]

* Randy Bush:

> On 09.01.13 03:40, Michienne Dixon wrote:
>> I'm not entirely certain what is going on but has anyone noticed some
>> strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24?
>
> see http://psg.com/173-174/

So does "academic" mean "unethical" these days?

I think this is over the line.  You can't put other people's IDs into
routing data on production networks.  (Well, technically you can,
obviously, but you shouldn't.)

Fiber Plant Tracking Database

[Soucy, Ray]

Does anyone know of any software offerings to track your fiber plant
(inside and outdoor) besides the OptiCon Systems offering (formerly
Corning)? 

 

Ray Soucy

Communications Specialist

 

+1 (207) 561-3526

 

Communications and Network Services

 

University of Maine System

http://www.maine.edu/

 

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Randy Bush]

On 09.01.13 05:32, Michienne Dixon wrote:

guy's gotta sleep some time.  it's 04:40 here.

My apologizes for jumping the gun.


i demand a full refund!  :)

but that's about the best use for guns i can think of.

randy

Re: recommendation for SIP integration

[Marcus Marinelli]

I have used the CallWithUs guys (http://callwithus.com) and they seem to
very reasonable.

They have an emphasis on keeping things simple, and are happy to chat with
you on a technical level if needed.



On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Michael Holstein <
michael.holst...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>
>  Hi, I am looking for a solution where I can tie a US number to a SIP
>> solution. Has anyone had experience with this and if so can you make some
>> recommendations?
>>
>
> I use Flowroute myself (www.flowroute.com) .. you can do single DIDs tied
> to a SIP peer, virtual PRIs, and a number of other things. You can even get
> a free account to test your setup. Here's the list of area codes they offer
> them in : http://www.flowroute.com/services/dids/
>
> I'm just using it for my personal Asterisk setup, so I'm not sure how they
> scale out. They claim to support thousands of simultaneous calls to most
> international destinations.
>
> Here's a link to a bunch of others :
> http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/DID+Service+Providers
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michael Holstein
> Cleveland State University
>
>

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Josh Fiske]

I agree with Paul and Michienne, having the courtesy to notify next time
would be very much appreciated.  I was headed into a family member's
funeral when I received the hijack notification.  I took the 15 minutes
to do some quick investigation, fire off a few emails informing my
colleagues of the issue and "arrived" at the funeral a bit late. 

Perhaps in the future it would be better not to play with my toys
without asking my permission first?

- - - -
Joshua Fiske '03, '04
Network and Security Engineer
Clarkson University, Office of Information Technology
(315) 268-6722 -- Fax:  (315) 268-6570
I route, therefore you are.

  Think before you print.

CONFIDENTIALITY:  This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain
confidential, proprietary and privileged information, and unauthorized
disclosure or use is prohibited.  If you received this e-mail in error,
please notify the sender and delete this e-mail from your system.


-Original Message-
From: Paul Stewart [mailto:pstew...@nexicomgroup.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:29 PM
To: Michienne Dixon; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

Absolutely - according to their website " No real or production prefixes
or data packets are being harmed in this experiment. If you become aware
that this experiment causes any actual real operational problem, please
write to us immediately. "

I have asked them to have some courtesy next time before wasting a lot
of people's time...

Paul


-Original Message-
From: Michienne Dixon [mailto:mdi...@nkc.org] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:20 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

The IAR was the source of my notice as well and is what started me down
this path of cat herding.
I would think that it would only be polite to notify people about what
is going on so that other people do not waste their time looking for
phantom issues.
 
 
-
Michienne Dixon
Network Administrator
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org  
(816) 412-7990
 



From: karli...@gmail.com [mailto:karli...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Josh
Karlin
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:57 PM
To: Paul Stewart
Cc: Majdi S. Abbas; Michienne Dixon; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24


At some point 3130 announced these prefixes, and is now prepending other
ASes to them.  Pretty Good BGP (and hence the IAR) sees them as prefix
hijacks.  If you'd like to see the entire list of prefixes, check out:
http://iar.cs.unm.edu/search.php and enter in 3130 as the "Victim AS"

Josh


On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Paul Stewart
 wrote:


Same here.. got a notice this morning and while it's false, I
still have
no response from Randy neither on this matter...

If they are going to involve our AS numbers and trigger alarms
it would
be nice to notify us first... especially on something as major
as a
prefix hijacking (potentially)

Paul



 




"The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity
to which it is addressed and contains confidential and/or privileged
material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender
immediately and then destroy this transmission, including all
attachments, without copying, distributing or disclosing same. Thank
you."

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Michienne Dixon]

My apologizes for jumping the gun.


-
Michienne Dixon
Network Administrator
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org
(816) 412-7990

-Original Message-
From: Randy Bush [mailto:ra...@psg.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:42 PM
To: Paul Stewart
Cc: Majdi S. Abbas; Michienne Dixon; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

On 09.01.13 03:52, Paul Stewart wrote:
> Same here.. got a notice this morning and while it's false, I still 
> have no response from Randy neither on this matter..

guy's gotta sleep some time.  it's 04:40 here.

if you wrote me directly, you would have a response by now.  almost to
the bottom of my mailbox.

part of the experiment is to measure the difference between the amount
of nanog mail lorenzo drew in 2005 by pre-announcing with the amount we
get in 2009 while not pre-announcing.  :)

randy

Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

On Jan 12, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Soucy, Ray wrote:


We peer with Cogent.  They are very competitive in terms of pricing.
To be honest, Cogent has been pretty good to us.  As long as you  
have a

2nd peer (which it sounds like you do) for backup I'd say they're a
pretty safe bet.


I think you mean s/peer/transit.

--
TTFN,
patrick


The only problem I've had with Cogent is that they're still not  
ready to

route IPv6.

The whole "you get what you pay for" talk is nonsense in my book,  
you're
paying top dollar with places like Sprint because they use the  
income to

subsidize their other efforts that are taking a loss.

Ray Soucy
Communications Specialist

+1 (207) 561-3526

Communications and Network Services

University of Maine System
http://www.maine.edu/


-Original Message-
From: Mike Bartz [mailto:m...@bartzfamily.net]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:54 PM
To: neal rauhauser
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

I like the haiku!  On a serious note, we are considering getting a
connection from Cogent.  We currently have connections to at&t, Level
3 and TW Telecom.  The low cost and high number of peer AS number's
seems appealing to us.  Every carrier has its issues, so I don't know
what to make of the apparent negativity that I am seeing in these
haiku threads.  I am looking for some first hand experiences to help
me make this decision.

Thanks for any assistance!

Mike


On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 9:59 PM, neal rauhauser 
wrote:

Cogent makes a mess
My phone rings and rings
Unfornicate this!





--
Mike Bartz
m...@bartzfamily.net

Re: Cogent (was the poetry thread)

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

On Jan 12, 2009, at 2:53 PM, Martin List-Petersen wrote:

Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:

On Jan 12, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:

Jeffrey Lyon wrote:

Mike,
Aside from the occasional peering wars i've never had or  
witnessed any
serious issues with Cogent. If you want some redundancy you might  
also

try some other similarly priced providers like WBS Connect, HE, or
BtN.


(resend due to subject filter)

Plus if you had direct connectivity to Cogent, their peering  
status with

others wouldn't affect you anymore. Personally, I've seriously
considered this as a reason to get a connection from Cogent.


If you are not single-homed, you have no issues reaching Cogent even
during a "peering war" - unless Cogent depeers / gets depeered from
-both- (all) of your upstreams at the same time.  So what value is  
there

to add Cogent?


The value is, that Cogent pretty much is the cheapest transit you can
get out there vs. paying a premium for carriers that have less clue  
and

more outages.


Sorry for being imprecise.  I meant that adding Cogent does not  
significantly improve your reachability.  Choosing to buy from Cogent  
because they depeer / get depeered occasionally is silly, IMHO.


To be clear, I am making no comment on Cogent's overall performance.   
If you find value in adding a provider for other reasons (cost,  
performance, etc.), I would not argue against it.


--
TTFN,
patrick

Re: recommendation for SIP integration

[Michael Holstein]

Hi, I am looking for a solution where I can tie a US number to a SIP solution. Has anyone had experience with this and if so can you make some recommendations? 
  


I use Flowroute myself (www.flowroute.com) .. you can do single DIDs 
tied to a SIP peer, virtual PRIs, and a number of other things. You can 
even get a free account to test your setup. Here's the list of area 
codes they offer them in : http://www.flowroute.com/services/dids/


I'm just using it for my personal Asterisk setup, so I'm not sure how 
they scale out. They claim to support thousands of simultaneous calls to 
most international destinations.


Here's a link to a bunch of others : 
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/DID+Service+Providers


Cheers,

Michael Holstein
Cleveland State University

Re:

[Jeremy L. Gaddis]

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009, Reese wrote:
> I once had a legitimate difficulty and posted to this list as a
> direct result. As I was moderated at the time, my post was denied
> with the provided reason that it was not appropriate for this
> list. An attempt to identify the source ISP of a troublesome IP
> was not "appropriate" but the below (and etc.) is?
> 
> Still, still, exercising undue discipline - unlike others.

http://tinyurl.com/6q7g3m ?

-- 
Jeremy L. Gaddis
http://evilrouters.net

Re: Cogent (was the poetry thread)

[Martin List-Petersen]

Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
> On Jan 12, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
>> Jeffrey Lyon wrote:
>>> Mike,
>>> Aside from the occasional peering wars i've never had or witnessed any
>>> serious issues with Cogent. If you want some redundancy you might also
>>> try some other similarly priced providers like WBS Connect, HE, or
>>> BtN.
>>
>> (resend due to subject filter)
>>
>> Plus if you had direct connectivity to Cogent, their peering status with
>> others wouldn't affect you anymore. Personally, I've seriously
>> considered this as a reason to get a connection from Cogent.
> 
> 
> If you are not single-homed, you have no issues reaching Cogent even
> during a "peering war" - unless Cogent depeers / gets depeered from
> -both- (all) of your upstreams at the same time.  So what value is there
> to add Cogent?

The value is, that Cogent pretty much is the cheapest transit you can
get out there vs. paying a premium for carriers that have less clue and
more outages.

And if you do that in a multi-homed scenario you shouldn't have issues,
having Cogent or not having it, correct.

Kind regards,
Martin List-Petersen
-- 
Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobal an Iarthar
http://www.airwire.ie
Phone: 091-865 968

Re: Cogent (was the poetry thread)

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

On Jan 12, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:

On Jan 12, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:

Jeffrey Lyon wrote:

Mike,
Aside from the occasional peering wars i've never had or witnessed  
any
serious issues with Cogent. If you want some redundancy you might  
also

try some other similarly priced providers like WBS Connect, HE, or
BtN.


(resend due to subject filter)

Plus if you had direct connectivity to Cogent, their peering status  
with

others wouldn't affect you anymore. Personally, I've seriously
considered this as a reason to get a connection from Cogent.



If you are not single-homed, you have no issues reaching Cogent even  
during a "peering war" - unless Cogent depeers / gets depeered from - 
both- (all) of your upstreams at the same time.  So what value is  
there to add Cogent?


If you are not single-homed, then reaching Cogent is not even close  
to your only problem.


s/not//

Sorry for confusion.

--
TTFN,
patrick

Re: Cogent (was the poetry thread)

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

On Jan 12, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:

Jeffrey Lyon wrote:

Mike,
Aside from the occasional peering wars i've never had or witnessed  
any
serious issues with Cogent. If you want some redundancy you might  
also

try some other similarly priced providers like WBS Connect, HE, or
BtN.


(resend due to subject filter)

Plus if you had direct connectivity to Cogent, their peering status  
with

others wouldn't affect you anymore. Personally, I've seriously
considered this as a reason to get a connection from Cogent.



If you are not single-homed, you have no issues reaching Cogent even  
during a "peering war" - unless Cogent depeers / gets depeered from - 
both- (all) of your upstreams at the same time.  So what value is  
there to add Cogent?


If you are not single-homed, then reaching Cogent is not even close to  
your only problem.


--
TTFN,
patrick

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Randy Bush]

On 09.01.13 03:52, Paul Stewart wrote:

Same here.. got a notice this morning and while it's false, I still have
no response from Randy neither on this matter..


guy's gotta sleep some time.  it's 04:40 here.

if you wrote me directly, you would have a response by now.  almost to 
the bottom of my mailbox.


part of the experiment is to measure the difference between the amount 
of nanog mail lorenzo drew in 2005 by pre-announcing with the amount we 
get in 2009 while not pre-announcing.  :)


randy

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Randy Bush]

On 09.01.13 03:40, Michienne Dixon wrote:

I'm not entirely certain what is going on but has anyone noticed some
strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24?


see http://psg.com/173-174/

randy

Re:

[Reese]

I once had a legitimate difficulty and posted to this list as a
direct result. As I was moderated at the time, my post was denied
with the provided reason that it was not appropriate for this
list. An attempt to identify the source ISP of a troublesome IP
was not "appropriate" but the below (and etc.) is?

Still, still, exercising undue discipline - unlike others.

--

Scott Berkman wrote:

, drop, and roll?

-Original Message-
From: Aaron Imbrock [mailto:aimbr...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:12 AM

To: NANOG@nanog.org
Subject: 


Stop

Re: Cogent (was the poetry thread)

[Seth Mattinen]

joe mcguckin wrote:

So, you're essentially getting paid peering from Cogent then ?




I guess you could do that. Normally I'd just throw it in the mix with 
the rest and let BGP figure it out if there's another depeering.


~Seth

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Paul Stewart]

Absolutely - according to their website " No real or production prefixes
or data packets are being harmed in this experiment. If you become aware
that this experiment causes any actual real operational problem, please
write to us immediately. "

I have asked them to have some courtesy next time before wasting a lot
of people's time...

Paul


-Original Message-
From: Michienne Dixon [mailto:mdi...@nkc.org]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:20 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

The IAR was the source of my notice as well and is what started me down
this path of cat herding.
I would think that it would only be polite to notify people about what
is going on so that other people do not waste their time looking for
phantom issues.


-
Michienne Dixon
Network Administrator
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org 
(816) 412-7990




From: karli...@gmail.com [mailto:karli...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Josh
Karlin
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:57 PM
To: Paul Stewart
Cc: Majdi S. Abbas; Michienne Dixon; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24


At some point 3130 announced these prefixes, and is now prepending other
ASes to them.  Pretty Good BGP (and hence the IAR) sees them as prefix
hijacks.  If you'd like to see the entire list of prefixes, check out:
http://iar.cs.unm.edu/search.php and enter in 3130 as the "Victim AS"

Josh


On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Paul Stewart
 wrote:


Same here.. got a notice this morning and while it's false, I
still have
no response from Randy neither on this matter...

If they are going to involve our AS numbers and trigger alarms
it would
be nice to notify us first... especially on something as major
as a
prefix hijacking (potentially)

Paul







"The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which 
it is addressed and contains confidential and/or privileged material. If you 
received this in error, please contact the sender immediately and then destroy 
this transmission, including all attachments, without copying, distributing or 
disclosing same. Thank you."

RE: recommendation for SIP integration

[Express Web Systems]

> I've used broadvoice before for personal telephony, and they were
> competent and asterisk-friendly, and seemed to have DIDs in many US
> LCAs. 

Just to throw another name into the arena http://voicepulse.com/ 

Pros: 
SIP and IAX termination
Many US NPP/NXX exchanges and 800 numbers
Config examples for many PBXs
POPs on both coasts
Good knowledgeable customer support

Cons:
Not all NPP/NXX offer LNP (Local Number Portability)
Credit card verification process is annoying, but I understand why

We have used them for several customers as well as our own SIP termination.

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with them in anyway, just a satisfied
customer.

Tom Walsh

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Edward B. DREGER]

MSA> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:48:42 +
MSA> From: Majdi S. Abbas

MSA> More seriously, this is indeed reachability research.  Try emailing
MSA> the AS 3130 contacts although I'd imagine Randy will see this.

Why not do this in a lab instead?

;-)


Eddy
--
Everquick Internet - http://www.everquick.net/
A division of Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. - http://www.brotsman.com/
Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building
Phone: +1 785 865 5885 Lawrence and [inter]national
Phone: +1 316 794 8922 Wichita

DO NOT send mail to the following addresses:
dav...@brics.com -*- jfconmaa...@intc.net -*- s...@everquick.net
Sending mail to spambait addresses is a great way to get blocked.
Ditto for broken OOO autoresponders and foolish AV software backscatter.

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Michienne Dixon]

The IAR was the source of my notice as well and is what started me down
this path of cat herding.
I would think that it would only be polite to notify people about what
is going on so that other people do not waste their time looking for
phantom issues.
 
 
-
Michienne Dixon
Network Administrator
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org  
(816) 412-7990
 



From: karli...@gmail.com [mailto:karli...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Josh
Karlin
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:57 PM
To: Paul Stewart
Cc: Majdi S. Abbas; Michienne Dixon; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24


At some point 3130 announced these prefixes, and is now prepending other
ASes to them.  Pretty Good BGP (and hence the IAR) sees them as prefix
hijacks.  If you'd like to see the entire list of prefixes, check out:
http://iar.cs.unm.edu/search.php and enter in 3130 as the "Victim AS"

Josh


On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Paul Stewart
 wrote:


Same here.. got a notice this morning and while it's false, I
still have
no response from Randy neither on this matter...

If they are going to involve our AS numbers and trigger alarms
it would
be nice to notify us first... especially on something as major
as a
prefix hijacking (potentially)

Paul

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Kevin Oberman]

> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:52:17 -0500
> From: "Paul Stewart" 
> 
> Same here.. got a notice this morning and while it's false, I still have
> no response from Randy neither on this matter...
> 
> If they are going to involve our AS numbers and trigger alarms it would
> be nice to notify us first... especially on something as major as a
> prefix hijacking (potentially)
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Majdi S. Abbas [mailto:m...@latt.net] 
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:49 PM
> To: Michienne Dixon
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24
> 
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:40:42PM -0600, Michienne Dixon wrote:
> > I'm not entirely certain what is going on but has anyone noticed some
> > strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24? 
> > 
> > I received a hijack notice that my AS (AS11708) was announcing the
> above
> > IP range.  I verified that I was not when I started noticing some
> > strange announcements for that range.  Around 10 Am CST AS11911 was
> > announcing it  (AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 11911) then around 11:30 AM
> CST
> > I observed AS12083 announcing it (AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 12083). 
> > 
> > Interestingly enough, ARIN indicates this is a part of range they have
> > assigned for reachability testing. 
> > http://ws.arin.net/whois/?queryinput=174.128.31.0
> 
>   randy lied but
>   no packets died
>   enough now
> 
>   More seriously, this is indeed reachability research.  Try
> emailing
> the AS 3130 contacts although I'd imagine Randy will see this.

http://psg.com/173-174/ explains what is going on.
-- 
R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer
Energy Sciences Network (ESnet)
Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab)
E-mail: ober...@es.net  Phone: +1 510 486-8634
Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4  EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751


pgpjlh8B9x05V.pgp
Description: PGP signature

RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Soucy, Ray]

We peer with Cogent.  They are very competitive in terms of pricing.  
To be honest, Cogent has been pretty good to us.  As long as you have a
2nd peer (which it sounds like you do) for backup I'd say they're a
pretty safe bet.

The only problem I've had with Cogent is that they're still not ready to
route IPv6.

The whole "you get what you pay for" talk is nonsense in my book, you're
paying top dollar with places like Sprint because they use the income to
subsidize their other efforts that are taking a loss.

Ray Soucy
Communications Specialist

+1 (207) 561-3526

Communications and Network Services

University of Maine System
http://www.maine.edu/


-Original Message-
From: Mike Bartz [mailto:m...@bartzfamily.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:54 PM
To: neal rauhauser
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

I like the haiku!  On a serious note, we are considering getting a
connection from Cogent.  We currently have connections to at&t, Level
3 and TW Telecom.  The low cost and high number of peer AS number's
seems appealing to us.  Every carrier has its issues, so I don't know
what to make of the apparent negativity that I am seeing in these
haiku threads.  I am looking for some first hand experiences to help
me make this decision.

Thanks for any assistance!

Mike


On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 9:59 PM, neal rauhauser 
wrote:
> Cogent makes a mess
> My phone rings and rings
> Unfornicate this!
>



-- 
Mike Bartz
m...@bartzfamily.net

Re: Cogent Considerations [was: Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0]

[Brandon Galbraith]

On 1/12/09, Jim Shankland  wrote:
>
> Adam Young wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't take my word for it but truthfully, you get what you pay for.
>>  Given you have other, more reliable transit, adding Cogent may be ok.
>> I wouldn't rely on it for anything serious though.
>>
>
> That has not been my experience.  Peering wars have been an issue, but
> aside from that, they've been fine.  (This is transit in San Francisco
> at the gigabit-plus level.)
>
> Jim Shankland
>
>
Seconded. We also have Cogent for gigabit transit. I had far more problems
in the short time we used Level3 for transit than I've had with Cogent.

-brandon

-- 
Brandon Galbraith
Voice: 630.400.6992
Email: brandon.galbra...@gmail.com

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Josh Karlin]

At some point 3130 announced these prefixes, and is now prepending other
ASes to them.  Pretty Good BGP (and hence the IAR) sees them as prefix
hijacks.  If you'd like to see the entire list of prefixes, check out:
http://iar.cs.unm.edu/search.php and enter in 3130 as the "Victim AS"

Josh

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Paul Stewart wrote:

> Same here.. got a notice this morning and while it's false, I still have
> no response from Randy neither on this matter...
>
> If they are going to involve our AS numbers and trigger alarms it would
> be nice to notify us first... especially on something as major as a
> prefix hijacking (potentially)
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Majdi S. Abbas [mailto:m...@latt.net]
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:49 PM
> To: Michienne Dixon
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:40:42PM -0600, Michienne Dixon wrote:
> > I'm not entirely certain what is going on but has anyone noticed some
> > strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24?
> >
> > I received a hijack notice that my AS (AS11708) was announcing the
> above
> > IP range.  I verified that I was not when I started noticing some
> > strange announcements for that range.  Around 10 Am CST AS11911 was
> > announcing it  (AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 11911) then around 11:30 AM
> CST
> > I observed AS12083 announcing it (AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 12083).
> >
> > Interestingly enough, ARIN indicates this is a part of range they have
> > assigned for reachability testing.
> > http://ws.arin.net/whois/?queryinput=174.128.31.0
>
>randy lied but
>no packets died
>enough now
>
>More seriously, this is indeed reachability research.  Try
> emailing
> the AS 3130 contacts although I'd imagine Randy will see this.
>
>Thanks,
>
>--msa
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> "The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
> which it is addressed and contains confidential and/or privileged material.
> If you received this in error, please contact the sender immediately and
> then destroy this transmission, including all attachments, without copying,
> distributing or disclosing same. Thank you."
>
>

RE: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Paul Stewart]

Same here.. got a notice this morning and while it's false, I still have
no response from Randy neither on this matter...

If they are going to involve our AS numbers and trigger alarms it would
be nice to notify us first... especially on something as major as a
prefix hijacking (potentially)

Paul



-Original Message-
From: Majdi S. Abbas [mailto:m...@latt.net]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:49 PM
To: Michienne Dixon
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:40:42PM -0600, Michienne Dixon wrote:
> I'm not entirely certain what is going on but has anyone noticed some
> strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24?
>
> I received a hijack notice that my AS (AS11708) was announcing the
above
> IP range.  I verified that I was not when I started noticing some
> strange announcements for that range.  Around 10 Am CST AS11911 was
> announcing it  (AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 11911) then around 11:30 AM
CST
> I observed AS12083 announcing it (AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 12083).
>
> Interestingly enough, ARIN indicates this is a part of range they have
> assigned for reachability testing.
> http://ws.arin.net/whois/?queryinput=174.128.31.0

randy lied but
no packets died
enough now

More seriously, this is indeed reachability research.  Try
emailing
the AS 3130 contacts although I'd imagine Randy will see this.

Thanks,

--msa







"The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which 
it is addressed and contains confidential and/or privileged material. If you 
received this in error, please contact the sender immediately and then destroy 
this transmission, including all attachments, without copying, distributing or 
disclosing same. Thank you."

Re: Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Majdi S. Abbas]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:40:42PM -0600, Michienne Dixon wrote:
> I'm not entirely certain what is going on but has anyone noticed some
> strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24? 
> 
> I received a hijack notice that my AS (AS11708) was announcing the above
> IP range.  I verified that I was not when I started noticing some
> strange announcements for that range.  Around 10 Am CST AS11911 was
> announcing it  (AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 11911) then around 11:30 AM CST
> I observed AS12083 announcing it (AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 12083). 
> 
> Interestingly enough, ARIN indicates this is a part of range they have
> assigned for reachability testing. 
> http://ws.arin.net/whois/?queryinput=174.128.31.0

randy lied but
no packets died
enough now

More seriously, this is indeed reachability research.  Try emailing
the AS 3130 contacts although I'd imagine Randy will see this.

Thanks,

--msa

Re: Cogent (was the poetry thread)

[joe mcguckin]

So, you're essentially getting paid peering from Cogent then ?


Joe McGuckin
ViaNet Communications

j...@via.net
650-207-0372 cell
650-213-1302 office
650-969-2124 fax



On Jan 12, 2009, at 10:17 AM, Seth Mattinen wrote:


Jeffrey Lyon wrote:

Mike,
Aside from the occasional peering wars i've never had or witnessed  
any
serious issues with Cogent. If you want some redundancy you might  
also

try some other similarly priced providers like WBS Connect, HE, or
BtN.


(resend due to subject filter)

Plus if you had direct connectivity to Cogent, their peering status  
with

others wouldn't affect you anymore. Personally, I've seriously
considered this as a reason to get a connection from Cogent.

~Seth

Anyone notice strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24

[Michienne Dixon]

I'm not entirely certain what is going on but has anyone noticed some
strange announcements for 174.128.31.0/24? 

I received a hijack notice that my AS (AS11708) was announcing the above
IP range.  I verified that I was not when I started noticing some
strange announcements for that range.  Around 10 Am CST AS11911 was
announcing it  (AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 11911) then around 11:30 AM CST
I observed AS12083 announcing it (AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 12083). 

Interestingly enough, ARIN indicates this is a part of range they have
assigned for reachability testing. 
http://ws.arin.net/whois/?queryinput=174.128.31.0


This was from this AM around 10 AM CST:
 tel...@mlx4ap3#sho ip bgp route 174.128.31.0/24
Number of BGP Routes matching display condition : 1

   Prefix Next HopMetric LocPrf Weight
Status
1  174.128.31.0/24160.81.151.109  88 200100
BE
 AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 11911
   Last update to IP routing table: 2h24m33s, 1 path(s) installed:

This was from this AM around 11:30 AM CST:
Number of BGP Routes matching display condition : 1

   Prefix Next HopMetric LocPrf Weight
Status
1  174.128.31.0/24160.81.151.109  88 200100
BE
 AS_PATH: 1239 2914 3130 12083
   Last update to IP routing table: 0h0m43s, 1 path(s) installed:
  
 
-
Michienne Dixon
liNKCity
312 Armour Rd.
North Kansas City, MO  64116
www.linkcity.org  
(816) 412-7990

Re: Cogent Considerations [was: Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0]

[Jim Shankland]

Adam Young wrote:

I wouldn't take my word for it but truthfully, you get what you pay for.
 Given you have other, more reliable transit, adding Cogent may be ok.
I wouldn't rely on it for anything serious though.


That has not been my experience.  Peering wars have been an issue, but
aside from that, they've been fine.  (This is transit in San Francisco
at the gigabit-plus level.)

Jim Shankland

Re: recommendation for SIP integration

[Joe Abley]

On 2009-01-12, at 12:47, Zaid Ali wrote:

Hi, I am looking for a solution where I can tie a US number to a SIP  
solution. Has anyone had experience with this and if so can you make  
some recommendations?


I've used broadvoice before for personal telephony, and they were  
competent and asterisk-friendly, and seemed to have DIDs in many US  
LCAs. 



Joe

Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Seth Mattinen]

Jeffrey Lyon wrote:

Mike,

Aside from the occasional peering wars i've never had or witnessed any
serious issues with Cogent. If you want some redundancy you might also
try some other similarly priced providers like WBS Connect, HE, or
BtN.



Plus if you had direct connectivity to Cogent, their peering status with 
others wouldn't affect you anymore. Personally, I've seriously 
considered this as a reason to get a connection from Cogent.


~Seth

Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Martin List-Petersen]

Jeffrey Lyon wrote:
> Mike,
> 
> Aside from the occasional peering wars i've never had or witnessed any
> serious issues with Cogent. If you want some redundancy you might also
> try some other similarly priced providers like WBS Connect, HE, or
> BtN.


I can second that. For the amount of money they charge, you get a very
good deal and their techs are competent.

However, due to peering wars, never rely on them alone. Any decent ISP
should anyway at least have connections from n+1 carriers.

Kind regards,
Martin List-Petersen



> 
> Best regards, Jeff
> 
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Mike Bartz  wrote:
>> I like the haiku!  On a serious note, we are considering getting a
>> connection from Cogent.  We currently have connections to at&t, Level
>> 3 and TW Telecom.  The low cost and high number of peer AS number's
>> seems appealing to us.  Every carrier has its issues, so I don't know
>> what to make of the apparent negativity that I am seeing in these
>> haiku threads.  I am looking for some first hand experiences to help
>> me make this decision.
>>
>> Thanks for any assistance!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 9:59 PM, neal rauhauser  wrote:
>>> Cogent makes a mess
>>> My phone rings and rings
>>> Unfornicate this!
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mike Bartz
>> m...@bartzfamily.net
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobal an Iarthar
http://www.airwire.ie
Phone: 091-865 968

Cogent (was the poetry thread)

[Seth Mattinen]

Jeffrey Lyon wrote:

Mike,

Aside from the occasional peering wars i've never had or witnessed any
serious issues with Cogent. If you want some redundancy you might also
try some other similarly priced providers like WBS Connect, HE, or
BtN.



(resend due to subject filter)

Plus if you had direct connectivity to Cogent, their peering status with
others wouldn't affect you anymore. Personally, I've seriously
considered this as a reason to get a connection from Cogent.

~Seth

Cogent Considerations [was: Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0]

[Adam Young]

Mike Bartz wrote:
> I like the haiku!  On a serious note, we are considering getting a
> connection from Cogent.  We currently have connections to at&t, Level
> 3 and TW Telecom.  The low cost and high number of peer AS number's
> seems appealing to us.  Every carrier has its issues, so I don't know
> what to make of the apparent negativity that I am seeing in these
> haiku threads.  I am looking for some first hand experiences to help
> me make this decision.
> 
> Thanks for any assistance!

Hey Mike,

I wouldn't take my word for it but truthfully, you get what you pay for.
 Given you have other, more reliable transit, adding Cogent may be ok.
I wouldn't rely on it for anything serious though.

Hope this helps,

-- 
Adam Young

RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Aaron Wendel]

NANOG has admins
They waste a lot of time now
Maybe paid to much


-Original Message-
From: Murphy, Jay, DOH [mailto:jay.mur...@state.nm.us] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 11:57 AM
To: Mike Bartz; neal rauhauser
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

Level 3 has gear.
Bleeding edge technology.
Get huge pipes right now.


Jay Murphy 
IP Network Specialist 
NM Department of Health 
ITSD - IP Network Operations 
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502 
Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851

"We move the information that moves your world." 






-Original Message-
From: Mike Bartz [mailto:m...@bartzfamily.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:54 AM
To: neal rauhauser
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

I like the haiku!  On a serious note, we are considering getting a
connection from Cogent.  We currently have connections to at&t, Level
3 and TW Telecom.  The low cost and high number of peer AS number's
seems appealing to us.  Every carrier has its issues, so I don't know
what to make of the apparent negativity that I am seeing in these
haiku threads.  I am looking for some first hand experiences to help
me make this decision.

Thanks for any assistance!

Mike


On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 9:59 PM, neal rauhauser 
wrote:
> Cogent makes a mess
> My phone rings and rings
> Unfornicate this!
>



-- 
Mike Bartz
m...@bartzfamily.net


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Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Jeffrey Lyon]

Mike,

Aside from the occasional peering wars i've never had or witnessed any
serious issues with Cogent. If you want some redundancy you might also
try some other similarly priced providers like WBS Connect, HE, or
BtN.

Best regards, Jeff

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Mike Bartz  wrote:
> I like the haiku!  On a serious note, we are considering getting a
> connection from Cogent.  We currently have connections to at&t, Level
> 3 and TW Telecom.  The low cost and high number of peer AS number's
> seems appealing to us.  Every carrier has its issues, so I don't know
> what to make of the apparent negativity that I am seeing in these
> haiku threads.  I am looking for some first hand experiences to help
> me make this decision.
>
> Thanks for any assistance!
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 9:59 PM, neal rauhauser  wrote:
>> Cogent makes a mess
>> My phone rings and rings
>> Unfornicate this!
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Mike Bartz
> m...@bartzfamily.net
>
>



-- 
Jeffrey Lyon, Leadership Team
jeffrey.l...@blacklotus.net | http://www.blacklotus.net
Black Lotus Communications of The IRC Company, Inc.

Look for us at HostingCon 2009 in Washington, DC on August 10th - 12th
at Booth #401.

Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Ken Simpson]

Cisco 7k nodes
Cascading VIP card failures
Reload the router


McColo shuts down
Spammers enjoy holiday
.. and then recommence

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Darryl Dunkin   
wrote:



Customers thank me
I will not stoop much lower
Pay dirt for transit

-Original Message-
From: Murphy, Jay, DOH [mailto:jay.mur...@state.nm.us]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 09:41
To: neal rauhauser; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

NANOG is too cool.
Rhyming with net engineers.
Poet don't know it.


Jay Murphy
IP Network Specialist
NM Department of Health
ITSD - IP Network Operations
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502
Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851

"We move the information that moves your world."






-Original Message-
From: neal rauhauser [mailto:nrauhau...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:59 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Cogent Haiku v2.0

Cogent makes a mess
My phone rings and rings
Unfornicate this!

__
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--
Josh Potter


--
Ken Simpson
CEO

MailChannels - Reliable Email Delivery
http://mailchannels.com
604 685 7488 tel

Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Randy Whitney]

All... Please stop this off-topic WOB.
--
Randy.

Josh Potter wrote:

Cisco 7k nodes
Cascading VIP card failures
Reload the router

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Darryl Dunkin  wrote:


Customers thank me
I will not stoop much lower
Pay dirt for transit

-Original Message-
From: Murphy, Jay, DOH [mailto:jay.mur...@state.nm.us]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 09:41
To: neal rauhauser; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

NANOG is too cool.
Rhyming with net engineers.
Poet don't know it.


Jay Murphy
IP Network Specialist
NM Department of Health
ITSD - IP Network Operations
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502
Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851

"We move the information that moves your world."






-Original Message-
From: neal rauhauser [mailto:nrauhau...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:59 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Cogent Haiku v2.0

Cogent makes a mess
My phone rings and rings
Unfornicate this!

__
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message. -- This email has been scanned by the Sybari - Antigen Email
System.

RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Murphy, Jay, DOH]

Level 3 has gear.
Bleeding edge technology.
Get huge pipes right now.


Jay Murphy 
IP Network Specialist 
NM Department of Health 
ITSD - IP Network Operations 
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502 
Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851

"We move the information that moves your world." 






-Original Message-
From: Mike Bartz [mailto:m...@bartzfamily.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:54 AM
To: neal rauhauser
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

I like the haiku!  On a serious note, we are considering getting a
connection from Cogent.  We currently have connections to at&t, Level
3 and TW Telecom.  The low cost and high number of peer AS number's
seems appealing to us.  Every carrier has its issues, so I don't know
what to make of the apparent negativity that I am seeing in these
haiku threads.  I am looking for some first hand experiences to help
me make this decision.

Thanks for any assistance!

Mike


On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 9:59 PM, neal rauhauser 
wrote:
> Cogent makes a mess
> My phone rings and rings
> Unfornicate this!
>



-- 
Mike Bartz
m...@bartzfamily.net


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RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Ray Corbin]

Net admins are bored
Nanog lists run wild
Useless spam blows up phone

:)

-r

-Original Message-
From: Jeffrey Lyon [mailto:jeffrey.l...@blacklotus.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:48 PM
To: Murphy, Jay, DOH
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

The XO version:

XO is low cost
The cabinets had no power
Service was useless

Jeff

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Murphy, Jay, DOH
 wrote:
> NANOG is too cool.
> Rhyming with net engineers.
> Poet don't know it.
>
>
> Jay Murphy
> IP Network Specialist
> NM Department of Health
> ITSD - IP Network Operations
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502
> Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851
>
> "We move the information that moves your world."
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: neal rauhauser [mailto:nrauhau...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:59 PM
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Cogent Haiku v2.0
>
> Cogent makes a mess
> My phone rings and rings
> Unfornicate this!
>
> __
> This inbound email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> System.
> __
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including all attachments is for the 
> sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and 
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or 
> distribution is prohibited unless specifically provided under the New Mexico 
> Inspection of Public Records Act. If you are not the intended recipient, 
> please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this message. -- This 
> email has been scanned by the Sybari - Antigen Email System.
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
Jeffrey Lyon, Leadership Team
jeffrey.l...@blacklotus.net | http://www.blacklotus.net
Black Lotus Communications of The IRC Company, Inc.

Look for us at HostingCon 2009 in Washington, DC on August 10th - 12th
at Booth #401.

Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Josh Potter]

Cisco 7k nodes
Cascading VIP card failures
Reload the router

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Darryl Dunkin  wrote:

> Customers thank me
> I will not stoop much lower
> Pay dirt for transit
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Murphy, Jay, DOH [mailto:jay.mur...@state.nm.us]
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 09:41
> To: neal rauhauser; nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0
>
> NANOG is too cool.
> Rhyming with net engineers.
> Poet don't know it.
>
>
> Jay Murphy
> IP Network Specialist
> NM Department of Health
> ITSD - IP Network Operations
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502
> Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851
>
> "We move the information that moves your world."
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: neal rauhauser [mailto:nrauhau...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:59 PM
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Cogent Haiku v2.0
>
> Cogent makes a mess
> My phone rings and rings
> Unfornicate this!
>
> __
> This inbound email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> System.
> __
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including all attachments is for
> the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
> and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited unless specifically provided under the New
> Mexico Inspection of Public Records Act. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this
> message. -- This email has been scanned by the Sybari - Antigen Email
> System.
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Josh Potter

Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Mike Bartz]

I like the haiku!  On a serious note, we are considering getting a
connection from Cogent.  We currently have connections to at&t, Level
3 and TW Telecom.  The low cost and high number of peer AS number's
seems appealing to us.  Every carrier has its issues, so I don't know
what to make of the apparent negativity that I am seeing in these
haiku threads.  I am looking for some first hand experiences to help
me make this decision.

Thanks for any assistance!

Mike


On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 9:59 PM, neal rauhauser  wrote:
> Cogent makes a mess
> My phone rings and rings
> Unfornicate this!
>



-- 
Mike Bartz
m...@bartzfamily.net

RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Murphy, Jay, DOH]

good stuff



Jay Murphy 
IP Network Specialist 
NM Department of Health 
ITSD - IP Network Operations 
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502 
Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851

"We move the information that moves your world." 






-Original Message-
From: Darryl Dunkin [mailto:ddun...@netos.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:50 AM
To: Murphy, Jay, DOH; neal rauhauser; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

Customers thank me
I will not stoop much lower
Pay dirt for transit

-Original Message-
From: Murphy, Jay, DOH [mailto:jay.mur...@state.nm.us] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 09:41
To: neal rauhauser; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

NANOG is too cool.
Rhyming with net engineers.
Poet don't know it.


Jay Murphy 
IP Network Specialist 
NM Department of Health 
ITSD - IP Network Operations 
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502 
Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851

"We move the information that moves your world." 






-Original Message-
From: neal rauhauser [mailto:nrauhau...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:59 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Cogent Haiku v2.0

Cogent makes a mess
My phone rings and rings
Unfornicate this!

__
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message. -- This email has been scanned by the Sybari - Antigen Email
System. 





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sender and destroy all copies of this message. -- This email has been scanned 
by the Sybari - Antigen Email System. 

RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Darryl Dunkin]

Customers thank me
I will not stoop much lower
Pay dirt for transit

-Original Message-
From: Murphy, Jay, DOH [mailto:jay.mur...@state.nm.us] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 09:41
To: neal rauhauser; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

NANOG is too cool.
Rhyming with net engineers.
Poet don't know it.


Jay Murphy 
IP Network Specialist 
NM Department of Health 
ITSD - IP Network Operations 
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502 
Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851

"We move the information that moves your world." 






-Original Message-
From: neal rauhauser [mailto:nrauhau...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:59 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Cogent Haiku v2.0

Cogent makes a mess
My phone rings and rings
Unfornicate this!

__
This inbound email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
System.
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recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this
message. -- This email has been scanned by the Sybari - Antigen Email
System. 

Re: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Jeffrey Lyon]

The XO version:

XO is low cost
The cabinets had no power
Service was useless

Jeff

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Murphy, Jay, DOH
 wrote:
> NANOG is too cool.
> Rhyming with net engineers.
> Poet don't know it.
>
>
> Jay Murphy
> IP Network Specialist
> NM Department of Health
> ITSD - IP Network Operations
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502
> Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851
>
> "We move the information that moves your world."
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: neal rauhauser [mailto:nrauhau...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:59 PM
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Cogent Haiku v2.0
>
> Cogent makes a mess
> My phone rings and rings
> Unfornicate this!
>
> __
> This inbound email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> System.
> __
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including all attachments is for the 
> sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and 
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or 
> distribution is prohibited unless specifically provided under the New Mexico 
> Inspection of Public Records Act. If you are not the intended recipient, 
> please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this message. -- This 
> email has been scanned by the Sybari - Antigen Email System.
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
Jeffrey Lyon, Leadership Team
jeffrey.l...@blacklotus.net | http://www.blacklotus.net
Black Lotus Communications of The IRC Company, Inc.

Look for us at HostingCon 2009 in Washington, DC on August 10th - 12th
at Booth #401.

recommendation for SIP integration

[Zaid Ali]

Hi, I am looking for a solution where I can tie a US number to a SIP solution. 
Has anyone had experience with this and if so can you make some 
recommendations? 

Zaid

RE: Cogent Haiku v2.0

[Murphy, Jay, DOH]

NANOG is too cool.
Rhyming with net engineers.
Poet don't know it.


Jay Murphy 
IP Network Specialist 
NM Department of Health 
ITSD - IP Network Operations 
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502 
Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851

"We move the information that moves your world." 






-Original Message-
From: neal rauhauser [mailto:nrauhau...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:59 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Cogent Haiku v2.0

Cogent makes a mess
My phone rings and rings
Unfornicate this!

__
This inbound email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
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Public Records Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the 
sender and destroy all copies of this message. -- This email has been scanned 
by the Sybari - Antigen Email System. 

RE: RE:

[Murphy, Jay, DOH]

around the world in 80 days...


Jay Murphy 
IP Network Specialist 
NM Department of Health 
ITSD - IP Network Operations 
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502 
Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851

"We move the information that moves your world." 






-Original Message-
From: Ray Sanders [mailto:ray.sand...@villagevoicemedia.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:46 AM
To: NANOG@nanog.org
Subject: Re: RE:

Draggin my heart around.

> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Aaron Imbrock [mailto:aimbr...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:12 AM
> To: NANOG@nanog.org
> Subject: 
> 
> Stop
> 
>  
> 
> 
-- 
"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr
--
Ray Sanders
Linux Administrator
Village Voice Media
Office: 602-744-6547
Cell: 602-300-4344



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Re: Re: RE:

[Ken Simpson]

On 12-Jan-09, at 6:45 AM, Ray Sanders wrote:


Draggin my heart around.



-Original Message-
From: Aaron Imbrock [mailto:aimbr...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:12 AM
To: NANOG@nanog.org
Subject:

Stop




--  
"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels  
Bohr

--
Ray Sanders
Linux Administrator
Village Voice Media
Office: 602-744-6547
Cell: 602-300-4344




--
Ken Simpson
CEO

MailChannels - Reliable Email Delivery
http://mailchannels.com
604 685 7488 tel

Re: RE:

[Ray Sanders]

Draggin my heart around.

> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Aaron Imbrock [mailto:aimbr...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:12 AM
> To: NANOG@nanog.org
> Subject: 
> 
> Stop
> 
>  
> 
> 
-- 
"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr
--
Ray Sanders
Linux Administrator
Village Voice Media
Office: 602-744-6547
Cell: 602-300-4344

Re:

[Jim Popovitch]

> Stop

the insanity.


(please)

Re:

[Alexander Harrowell]

> Stop


Making sense?

RE:

[Scott Berkman]

, drop, and roll?

-Original Message-
From: Aaron Imbrock [mailto:aimbr...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:12 AM
To: NANOG@nanog.org
Subject: 

Stop

 

Re:

[Stephen Kratzer]

On Monday 12 January 2009 01:11:50 Aaron Imbrock wrote:
> Stop

in the name of love

Re:

[David Barak]

Collaborate & Listen

http://xkcd.com/210/

David Barak
Need Geek Rock?  Try The Franchise: 
http://www.listentothefranchise.com


--- On Mon, 1/12/09, Nathan Malynn  wrote:

> From: Nathan Malynn 
> Subject: Re:
> To: "Aaron Imbrock" 
> Cc: NANOG@nanog.org
> Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 1:12 AM
> Hammertime.
> 
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 1:11 AM, Aaron Imbrock
>  wrote:
> > Stop
> >
> >
> >
> >


  

Re:

[Suresh Ramasubramanian]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Aaron Imbrock  wrote:
> Stop

Do not pass Go.
Do not collect $200.

-- 
Suresh Ramasubramanian (ops.li...@gmail.com)