Re: How our young colleagues are being educated....
On 14-12-22 04:13, Javier J wrote: > Not only are they skimming over new technologies such as BGP, MPLS and the > fundamentals of TCP/IP that run the internet and the networks of the world, > they were focusing on ATM , Frame Relay and other technologies that are on > their way out My first reaction: teacher is former telco/bell labs/lucent worker and thus his own experience slanted with the old tech telcos were swayed to by telco vendors to make them incompatible with the new competition called Cisco (back then).
Re: How our young colleagues are being educated....
All networking courses SHOULD have some version of binary in them. Too many things rely on it to be skipped. Yes, in the real world we have shortcuts. But when those shortcuts become the only thing everyone knows, bad things may be left to happen. Besides, if one can¹t do binary, how can they be expected to understand hex? Anyway Good these things are here, but one thing I will point out is that there is a distinct difference with people glazing over because they don¹t understand something versus the fact that something is truly boring. There¹s nothing sexy about binary. But that doesn¹t mean it can¹t be fun! So if the classes are Death by Powerpoint (which is very typical in academia it seems), then I can certainly understand the aversion that students would have to that. Amazingly enough, for a skill that everyone SHOULD understand, I find a tremendous number of people who don¹t. And for something that¹s boring and nobody wants to learn, I have LOTS of people sign up for various sessions I do at certain vendor¹s trade shows on that very subject. So someplace there¹s a disparity in there. Now, as a side, one problem that I often have with various academic-based courses is that the people who teach them often don¹t have enough real-world experience (or not current anyway) in order to pass along any benefit in that matter. There are many things that need to be addressed at this level within the higher-education arena, and I¹m sure it¹s not just related to networking subjects! Scott -Original Message- From: Dennis Bohn Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 at 2:40 PM To: Ken Chase Cc: Subject: Re: How our young colleagues are being educated >On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Ken Chase wrote: > >> Learning how to do CIDR math is a major core component of the >>coursework? >> Im >> thinking that this is about a 30 minute module in the material, once you >> know >> binary, powers of 2 and some addition and subtraction (all of which is >> taught >> in most schools by when, first year highschool?) you should be done with >> it. > > >So... just finished up teaching a network course because the Math/Comp Sci >dept had lost professors I can tell you it was really tough getting >across >the idea of four bytes of dotted decimal from binary and THEN subnet >masks >and getting the students THEN to convert to CIDR. Many glazed eyeballs. > >We asked some of the students who had taken the network class in prior >years and it was true that they learned very little of the things we >consider basic, as Javier mentioned. The profs seemed to have been >focusing on programming more than neworking per se, even tho the book they >were using covered the technology as well as socket programming. We >covered all of the things in Javier's initial rant and more, like the >principles of TCP congestion control and the history of packet switching. > >It was fun being able to let them in on some real world things, like say >the sinking feeling of making a change in a network and then the phone >starts ringing off the hook :-)Unfortunately, this was likely a >one-time deal that the students got to really learn a couple of things >about networking. > > >Dennis Bohn >> Adelphi University >>
Time Warner Caching Issue
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Could someone at Time Warner flush the cache for callutheran.edu. It looks like one of your servers is holding the cache... > outlook.callutheran.edu Server: dns-cac-lb-01.rr.com Address: 209.18.47.61 Non-authoritative answer: Name:outlook.callutheran.edu Address: 199.107.196.194 > outlook.callutheran.edu Server: dns-cac-lb-01.rr.com Address: 209.18.47.61 Non-authoritative answer: Name:outlook.callutheran.edu Address: 199.107.196.41 > outlook.callutheran.edu Server: dns-cac-lb-01.rr.com Address: 209.18.47.61 Non-authoritative answer: Name:outlook.callutheran.edu Address: 199.107.196.194 Thanks in advance for any help you can render. Stu Stuart Sheldon ACT USA -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUmvfoAAoJEFKVLITDJSGSRnAP+wbfXga8gQ73yurhz188M5JD qKkaVf/4h5uUEMFiJ1lDHbw7mKaHKkYJvPwIk9XuJ1jofXUXakKF1fnbeuYx90ya f+1yjU17z7urIbfQsSZBYJaHbhSu73tDq8VUnAg8cXYcc2PHXE8NbSoYrVEnpqlO qSq1g7fWTr1SHvtAXziFLmbSWuUk5vg/DDXn/6GhfZREXxAKXRQmqZRngMSGmWwu ABg4Kdsoj8SBTVKygADCmQ58mz38fo5BrYXj6B+TPkp1j9LjOyavEhlIzg23NQds zbxH/EdrFig0r6eai4LSxUgePJMAdaYdFPeIMfVYfCsQLvFmDGDszwsp1otK7y7e HWLM8JNH0xKJdqxstwsKN/nsCsTiFExP9ZIskDW875jCteDAKNIdOy69s3uN8Xou f36pCFc2QuTEw+7t8Sk8zJwscr83/JEKBCXWpGmSox4/NpaQOcvrpcmSDqEashUN owgQ+ii9nW/5OKoRKWrAS44yPMIKKwHCcRHGUc2RSFgIDbDnFLubhNjbaAslYXWh yNImUWTzvCjKji16QXmICX9lLzXfRdUGkm2eE8hRsOd+fbi4g8ezkc07tDzolnDp iTfOySpP8vW10IQlCOjNx1JC+RBrfnkSFg9MmBo3t9I5B8tNAAmKKNH3Av75LPiN GGVucS/CXt1BlznEtzIg =Laer -END PGP SIGNATURE-
merry xmas
(mtr|lft|traceroute) xmas.futile.net /kc -- Ken Chase - Toronto Canada
Re: merry xmas
On 12/24/14 11:27 AM, Ken Chase wrote: (mtr|lft|traceroute) xmas.futile.net It's a good thing we don't have an IPv4 address shortage going on, gotta use all that extra IP space for something! But honestly, cute and a nice touch. I just get this twitch in my neck when I see stuff like that - same twitch I get when I rdns scan a subnet used for IRC vanity host names. Force of habit I guess. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org/ http://www.ahbl.org
Re: merry xmas
On 2014-12-24 19:27, Ken Chase wrote: > (mtr|lft|traceroute) xmas.futile.net Welcome to the end of 2014. If you are going to do a silly traceroute thing that has been done thousands of times before, at least use this new fangled thing called: IPv6 Here is the Wikipedia page for you to get started on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6 Thank you for wasting IPv4 space btw, that way IPv6 has to be there earlier, and as you don't have IPv6 yet, good luck with your business ;) Greets, Jeroen
Re: merry xmas
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 9:27 AM, Ken Chase wrote: > > (mtr|lft|traceroute) xmas.futile.net And be sure to crank up the max hops a little higher than 100. Royce
Re: merry xmas
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Jeroen Massar wrote: > > On 2014-12-24 19:27, Ken Chase wrote: > > (mtr|lft|traceroute) xmas.futile.net > > Welcome to the end of 2014. > > If you are going to do a silly traceroute thing that has been done > thousands of times before, at least use this new fangled thing called: > > IPv6 > > Here is the Wikipedia page for you to get started on it: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6 > > Thank you for wasting IPv4 space btw, that way IPv6 has to be there > earlier, and as you don't have IPv6 yet, good luck with your business ;) > Maybe it's conspicuous consumption. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_principle Royce
Re: merry xmas
On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 19:38:18 +0100, Jeroen Massar said: > Thank you for wasting IPv4 space btw, that way IPv6 has to be there > earlier, and as you don't have IPv6 yet, good luck with your business ;) Feeling a tad grinchly, are we? :) 'whois 82.133.91.0' reports this: % Information related to '82.133.0.0/17AS9105' route: 82.133.0.0/17 descr: Tiscali UK Limited Feel free to explain how we can *sanely* reclaim a single /24 from a /17 without it looking like a hijacking. Now, *that* would be a really nice holiday gift to the net. pgpMN9jDAtop_.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: merry xmas
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 07:38:18PM +0100, Jeroen Massar said: >Welcome to the end of 2014. Yes, I know, fakeroute has been around a while (so has das blinkenlights, but I still find both cute. Though it has been a longwhile since anyone forwarded me DECWARS... /* fakeroute (c) 1996 Julian Assange */ /kc -- Ken Chase - Toronto CANADA
Re: North Korean internet goes dark (yes, they had one)
You have listened Fox news for too long, being convinced that US are the good, and any others are evil. Dont you? > Le 23 déc. 2014 à 21:00, Landon Stewart a écrit : > > For the few elite that do have Internet in DPRK it would be 1) a big > inconvenience which would annoy them a lot and 2) they have to transmit what > they want attacked to the outsourced crew (whoever they might be) somehow. I > doubt the outsourced group has a fax#.
Re: merry xmas
> On 24 Dec 2014, at 12:38, Jeroen Massar wrote: > > On 2014-12-24 19:27, Ken Chase wrote: >> (mtr|lft|traceroute) xmas.futile.net > > Welcome to the end of 2014. > > If you are going to do a silly traceroute thing that has been done > thousands of times before, at least use this new fangled thing called: > > IPv6 > > Here is the Wikipedia page for you to get started on it: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6 > > Thank you for wasting IPv4 space btw, that way IPv6 has to be there > earlier, and as you don't have IPv6 yet, good luck with your business ;) > > Greets, > Jeroen > For anyone who wishes to implement a Holiday Message for us IPv6 folks, Job Snijders has this code online: https://github.com/job/ipv6-traceroute-faker Just needs Linux, Python, and a /64 routed to it. -- Theo Baschak BOFH excuse #411: Traffic jam on the Information Superhighway.
Re: How our young colleagues are being educated....
As a student I feel particularly concerned about this. Le 22/12/2014 10:13, Javier J a écrit : > Not only are they skimming over new technologies such as BGP, MPLS and the > fundamentals of TCP/IP that run the internet and the networks of the world, > they were focusing on ATM , Frame Relay and other technologies that are on > their way out the door and will probably be extinct by the time this > student graduates. They are teaching classful routing and skimming over > CIDR. Is this indicative of the state of our education system as a whole? > How is it this student doesn't know about OSPF and has never heard of RIP? On the point about learning "ancient" technologies like X.25, I strongly believe it's not useless when put in comparison with newer ones . The purpose of some protocols depends on their environment at a specific time. IMHO, the evolution that resulted SPDY shows how TCP *was* relevant when you had lots of noise on the line (back-off algorithms). Furthermore, getting to know the past is the best way to avoid perpetrating the same mistakes all over. Eventually providing bases and theory of a simple communication (channeling, OSI model, error-correction, etc.). The administration's opinion is not to get hands on the latest technology (mostly pushed by companies) since it can be valueless tomorrow. On the other hand, people have to be very careful not keeping the rusty engine working. I never knew if one of my teacher was aware of the existence of CIDR notation, meanwhile he taught us about IPv6 (sadly not as a turning point with IPv4 exhaustion but more like a fancy feature). On other courses, it ended with VxLAN, LTE and multicast. I agree that SDN is becoming inevitable and is showing the tip of its nose. In my experience, I've never waited courses to understand DNS or BGP (yet they gave me strong roots thereafter). I'm also one of the few to attend networking conferences. I get a glance at a more political than technical view of what will be the future Internet, not taught in class. I believe lots students aren't aware of theses events, of the resources, and would be very interested : they just need a little boost. Some others, as anywhere, won't be very implicated going deeper than the courses. So, even if they had the latest knowledge, I don't think it would be so much more beneficial. In lab we get the opportunity to configure on high-end material. Our subjects are sometimes very restrictive, not helping to see past the few commands, not involving "creative" things like seeing everyone a an independent network, routing through some... One of my disappointments is we only work on a unique brand. I don't think we should go over a cheaper manufacturer (removing a somewhat "precious" experience on the famous one) but we should be given alternatives, the equivalent of pseudo-code : the router is only a mean to achieve : how does a Linux construct the BGP command comparing to Cisco...
Re: merry xmas
On 2014-12-24 20:06, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: > On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 19:38:18 +0100, Jeroen Massar said: > >> Thank you for wasting IPv4 space btw, that way IPv6 has to be there >> earlier, and as you don't have IPv6 yet, good luck with your business ;) > > Feeling a tad grinchly, are we? :) > > 'whois 82.133.91.0' reports this: > > % Information related to '82.133.0.0/17AS9105' > > route: 82.133.0.0/17 > descr: Tiscali UK Limited > > Feel free to explain how we can *sanely* reclaim a single /24 from a /17 > without it looking like a hijacking. Why would one bother with IPv4? Just start using IPv6, that IPv4 stuff will disappear over the next few decades by itself. > Now, *that* would be a really nice holiday gift to the net. A /17 would only last a few moments, not worth the effort of recovering it. Though indeed the reason why CGNs are being deployed is so that the business parts of the same company can charge extra for public IPv4s. On 2014-12-24 20:21, Ken Chase wrote: > On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 07:38:18PM +0100, Jeroen Massar said: > > >Welcome to the end of 2014. > > Yes, I know, fakeroute has been around a while (so has das > blinkenlights, but I still find both cute. the BOFH jadedness> > > Though it has been a longwhile since anyone forwarded me DECWARS... > > /* fakeroute (c) 1996 Julian Assange */ Interesting, I did remember rotorouter[1] and check the below url for what the reply to that was, the above one. Funny, seems that mr.Assange did something semi-useful with computers back then *wink* ;) That trick does not help in setting the reverses though as one does not control them; though one could possibly find all the 'sentences' in reverses around the net and reorder them into something coherent... Greets, Jeroen [1] http://www.shmoo.com/mail/bugtraq/aug98/msg00110.html
Re: merry xmas
On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 21:35:30 +0100, Jeroen Massar said: > On 2014-12-24 20:06, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: > > Feel free to explain how we can *sanely* reclaim a single /24 from a /17 > > without it looking like a hijacking. > > Why would one bother with IPv4? Well then, the waste of a /24 doesn't *actually* matter then, does it? :) > Just start using IPv6, that IPv4 stuff will disappear over the next few > decades by itself. (And I *did* "just start using IPv6" - I helped my employer put it in production *last century*. Glad to see the rest of the world finally catch up. :) pgp83RNgJT1_j.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: merry xmas
*grumble grumble bah humbug grumble grumble splat* On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Jeroen Massar wrote: > On 2014-12-24 20:06, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: >> On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 19:38:18 +0100, Jeroen Massar said: >> >>> Thank you for wasting IPv4 space btw, that way IPv6 has to be there >>> earlier, and as you don't have IPv6 yet, good luck with your business ;) >> >> Feeling a tad grinchly, are we? :) >> >> 'whois 82.133.91.0' reports this: >> >> % Information related to '82.133.0.0/17AS9105' >> >> route: 82.133.0.0/17 >> descr: Tiscali UK Limited >> >> Feel free to explain how we can *sanely* reclaim a single /24 from a /17 >> without it looking like a hijacking. > > Why would one bother with IPv4? > > Just start using IPv6, that IPv4 stuff will disappear over the next few > decades by itself. > >> Now, *that* would be a really nice holiday gift to the net. > > A /17 would only last a few moments, not worth the effort of recovering > it. Though indeed the reason why CGNs are being deployed is so that the > business parts of the same company can charge extra for public IPv4s. > > > On 2014-12-24 20:21, Ken Chase wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 07:38:18PM +0100, Jeroen Massar said: >> >> >Welcome to the end of 2014. >> >> Yes, I know, fakeroute has been around a while (so has das >> blinkenlights, but I still find both cute. > the BOFH jadedness> >> >> Though it has been a longwhile since anyone forwarded me DECWARS... >> >> /* fakeroute (c) 1996 Julian Assange */ > > Interesting, I did remember rotorouter[1] and check the below url for > what the reply to that was, the above one. Funny, seems that mr.Assange > did something semi-useful with computers back then *wink* ;) > > That trick does not help in setting the reverses though as one does not > control them; though one could possibly find all the 'sentences' in > reverses around the net and reorder them into something coherent... > > Greets, > Jeroen > > [1] http://www.shmoo.com/mail/bugtraq/aug98/msg00110.html > -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
RE: merry xmas
Merry Christmas to everyone and happy New Year!! -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Jeroen Massar Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 1:36 PM To: valdis.kletni...@vt.edu Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: merry xmas On 2014-12-24 20:06, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: > On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 19:38:18 +0100, Jeroen Massar said: > >> Thank you for wasting IPv4 space btw, that way IPv6 has to be there >> earlier, and as you don't have IPv6 yet, good luck with your business >> ;) > > Feeling a tad grinchly, are we? :) > > 'whois 82.133.91.0' reports this: > > % Information related to '82.133.0.0/17AS9105' > > route: 82.133.0.0/17 > descr: Tiscali UK Limited > > Feel free to explain how we can *sanely* reclaim a single /24 from a > /17 without it looking like a hijacking. Why would one bother with IPv4? Just start using IPv6, that IPv4 stuff will disappear over the next few decades by itself. > Now, *that* would be a really nice holiday gift to the net. A /17 would only last a few moments, not worth the effort of recovering it. Though indeed the reason why CGNs are being deployed is so that the business parts of the same company can charge extra for public IPv4s. On 2014-12-24 20:21, Ken Chase wrote: > On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 07:38:18PM +0100, Jeroen Massar said: > > >Welcome to the end of 2014. > > Yes, I know, fakeroute has been around a while (so has das > blinkenlights, but I still find both cute. jadedness> > > Though it has been a longwhile since anyone forwarded me DECWARS... > > /* fakeroute (c) 1996 Julian Assange */ Interesting, I did remember rotorouter[1] and check the below url for what the reply to that was, the above one. Funny, seems that mr.Assange did something semi-useful with computers back then *wink* ;) That trick does not help in setting the reverses though as one does not control them; though one could possibly find all the 'sentences' in reverses around the net and reorder them into something coherent... Greets, Jeroen [1] http://www.shmoo.com/mail/bugtraq/aug98/msg00110.html
Re: merry xmas
On 14-12-24 13:27, Ken Chase wrote: > (mtr|lft|traceroute) xmas.futile.net This one uses only 1 IPv4, so can't be accused of wasting half of internet address space :-) http://http://www.vaxination.ca/temp/train.gif This is an old 1980s ASCII art from VMS that ran on VT220s, digitally restored to animated Gif. (script to slowly dump content to xterm, while quicktime is recording the screen, then off to Adobe Premiere for cropping, scaling, and of course, giving it the CRT look by making it amber text of black background :-) A flash version was also created by twitter: https://twitter.com/jfmezei/status/547300803779002368/photo/1
Re: North Korean internet goes dark (yes, they had one)
On 12/22/14 20:16, Javier J wrote: > But I can ping them. > > https://nknetobserver.github.io/ > > And what would it matter if its offline, they already block their > population. What exactly is offline? I seem to recall that they also had some space on a Japanese network. I can't hit the Naenara website, which is the DPRK intranet-- that might be what they're talking about. -Sam
RE: North Korean internet goes dark (yes, they had one)
>> What would be the point in blocking them? They don't even have >> electricity in the country, what would I worry about coming out >> of their IP block that wouldn't be more interesting than dangerous. >> Pretty obvious if it was really them behind the Sony hack, it >> was outsourced. >For the few elite that do have Internet in DPRK it would be 1) a big >inconvenience which would annoy them a lot and 2) they have to transmit >what they want attacked to the outsourced crew (whoever they might be) >somehow. I doubt the outsourced group has a fax#. I am pretty sure that they have fax machines in Washington Dee Cee. --- Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. Sometimes theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why.
Re: merry xmas
On 12/24/2014 14:40, Theodore Baschak wrote: > For anyone who wishes to implement a Holiday Message for us IPv6 folks, > Job Snijders has this code online: > https://github.com/job/ipv6-traceroute-faker > > Just needs Linux, Python, and a /64 routed to it. > Been trying to get this running but I get this error: TypeError: do_callback() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given) Not sure where it is getting the second argument. Any ideas? -- Sadiq Saif https://staticsafe.ca
Re: merry xmas
On 12/24/2014 20:01, Sadiq Saif wrote: > Been trying to get this running but I get this error: > TypeError: do_callback() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given) > > Not sure where it is getting the second argument. Any ideas? > To clarify, I am running Python 2.7.6 (default, Mar 22 2014, 22:59:56) on Ubuntu 14.04. -- Sadiq Saif https://staticsafe.ca
Re: merry xmas
At least you’re only having problems with the IPv6 version, I’ve spent about an hour trying to get the IPv4 version of fakeroute working and I just can’t. I even tried a few different ones. Does anyone have a version that works? I have some fun things I’d like to do with it ;) Ammar. > On Dec 25, 2014, at 5:01 AM, Sadiq Saif wrote: > > On 12/24/2014 14:40, Theodore Baschak wrote: >> For anyone who wishes to implement a Holiday Message for us IPv6 folks, >> Job Snijders has this code online: >> https://github.com/job/ipv6-traceroute-faker >> >> Just needs Linux, Python, and a /64 routed to it. >> > > Been trying to get this running but I get this error: > TypeError: do_callback() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given) > > Not sure where it is getting the second argument. Any ideas? > > -- > Sadiq Saif > https://staticsafe.ca
Re: merry xmas
On 12/24/2014 13:27, Ken Chase wrote: > (mtr|lft|traceroute) xmas.futile.net > > /kc > -- > Ken Chase - Toronto Canada > Here is the IPv6 version: mtr xmas.asininetech.org Thanks to all the people who helped with the bit of python debugging. :) -- Sadiq Saif https://staticsafe.ca
Re: merry xmas
On 12/24/2014 20:52, Sadiq Saif wrote: > > Here is the IPv6 version: > mtr xmas.asininetech.org > > Thanks to all the people who helped with the bit of python debugging. > :) > For those using traceroute6, try with the -I flag. -- Sadiq Saif https://staticsafe.ca
