Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On 2/4/23 08:11, William Herrin wrote: Not for more than a decade now, at least not in the U.S. When you're up to whole-house generator prices everyone expects electric start. Half the portables have electric start. Most lawnmowers have electric start. Once you have that, the cost to make the switch automatic instead of manual is trivial. And the mass-produced consumer-grade switches are quite reliable. Fair point, but it is not uncommon (YMMV) for backup solutions to not be whole-home, and this includes generators. I have not lived in the U.S. on any meaningfully extended basis, so I can't speak to the degree to which folk that install backup power choose their cost/value matrix. But in many other places I've lived, especially where the power is frequently out, splitting the house loads into different panels a generator or small solar/battery system can support is commonplace; mainly for convenience but also to reduce the chances of a fire or electrical shock from having to run wires ad hoc. The same would also apply to renewables, especially where budget is limited and folk can't afford to backup the entire home. This is often cheaper than investing in large backup solutions, while still providing some degree of convenience to power what one would consider critical items, whatever that means to them. I've been helping quite a number of folk wire small inverters with limited power and backup battery time into DB boards that feed only lights and plugs to specifically drive wi-fi, TV, an IP phone and a fridge. The inverters and accompanying battery aren't terribly expensive here (US$500 - US$800 for a Lead Acid system, and up to US$1,400 for a Li-Ion one), and labour in Africa is dirt cheap (less than US$100 for an installation), so it's budget-friendly, and keeps basics going. One could even charge a laptop. In general, the main things folk will not backup are electric stoves, electric ovens, electric water heaters, electric space heaters and air conditioners. Obviously, in places with winter periods, serious plans have to be made to avoid death from cold. Mark.
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 10:01 PM Mark Tinka wrote: > What I mean by "pre-wired" is that, perhaps, the generator is pre-setup > and wired into the house, but is not in standby mode to manage costs, > and perhaps, to be reliable since ATS's are often dodgy. > > Maybe a manual start is required. Maybe a changeover switch has to be > flipped. That sort of thing. Not for more than a decade now, at least not in the U.S. When you're up to whole-house generator prices everyone expects electric start. Half the portables have electric start. Most lawnmowers have electric start. Once you have that, the cost to make the switch automatic instead of manual is trivial. And the mass-produced consumer-grade switches are quite reliable. Regards, Bill Herrin -- For hire. https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On 2/4/23 07:48, William Herrin wrote: Pre-wired makes it a standby generator, which 9 times out of 10 is automatic start with an automatic transfer switch. It's running within seconds whether you're home or not. Electricians cost too much and 20kva natural gas / propane generators with an ATS don't cost enough more than the portables. Compare: https://www.costco.com/honeywell-18kw-home-standby-generator-with-transfer-switch.product.4000106705.html and: https://www.amazon.com/Honda-2200-Watt-120-Volt-Portable-Generator/dp/B079YF1HF6 understanding that an electrician will cost you $2000-$3000 for the labor with any genset modification to the house wiring. Aware of all this - I operate one or two submarine cable landing stations... What I mean by "pre-wired" is that, perhaps, the generator is pre-setup and wired into the house, but is not in standby mode to manage costs, and perhaps, to be reliable since ATS's are often dodgy. Maybe a manual start is required. Maybe a changeover switch has to be flipped. That sort of thing. Of course, we are speculating, and Sabri can answer best. Mark.
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 9:36 PM Mark Tinka wrote: > On 2/4/23 07:29, William Herrin wrote: > > If it's just a little gasoline generator, 30 minutes is about right. > > It takes 10 minutes to decide the power isn't coming back soon and > > another 10 to drag the generator out of the shed, hook up the wires > > and get it going even though it's cold, wet, and hasn't been run for > > several months. That leaves 10 minutes to spare figuring out how to > > convince the UPS that the generator power is good enough to retransfer > > and stay. > > Indeed - I was guessing given how reliable PG have been for Sabri, a > lot is probably pre-wired. I may be wrong. Pre-wired makes it a standby generator, which 9 times out of 10 is automatic start with an automatic transfer switch. It's running within seconds whether you're home or not. Electricians cost too much and 20kva natural gas / propane generators with an ATS don't cost enough more than the portables. Compare: https://www.costco.com/honeywell-18kw-home-standby-generator-with-transfer-switch.product.4000106705.html and: https://www.amazon.com/Honda-2200-Watt-120-Volt-Portable-Generator/dp/B079YF1HF6 understanding that an electrician will cost you $2000-$3000 for the labor with any genset modification to the house wiring. Regards, Bill Herrin -- For hire. https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On 2/4/23 07:29, William Herrin wrote: If it's just a little gasoline generator, 30 minutes is about right. It takes 10 minutes to decide the power isn't coming back soon and another 10 to drag the generator out of the shed, hook up the wires and get it going even though it's cold, wet, and hasn't been run for several months. That leaves 10 minutes to spare figuring out how to convince the UPS that the generator power is good enough to retransfer and stay. Indeed - I was guessing given how reliable PG have been for Sabri, a lot is probably pre-wired. I may be wrong. Mark.
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 9:05 PM Mark Tinka wrote: > On 2/3/23 21:11, Sabri Berisha wrote: > > Living in an area served by PG, I've had my share of power cuts. At home > > I have a 600va UPS that protects my cable modem, RPI router, and POE switch > > which serves 2 APs. That lasts about 30 minutes, which gives me enough time > > to fire up my generator. > > I'd assume it doesn't take you that long to fire up the genie, if you > are home when the power goes out :-). If it's just a little gasoline generator, 30 minutes is about right. It takes 10 minutes to decide the power isn't coming back soon and another 10 to drag the generator out of the shed, hook up the wires and get it going even though it's cold, wet, and hasn't been run for several months. That leaves 10 minutes to spare figuring out how to convince the UPS that the generator power is good enough to retransfer and stay. Regards, Bill Herrin -- For hire. https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On 2/3/23 21:11, Sabri Berisha wrote: Living in an area served by PG, I've had my share of power cuts. At home I have a 600va UPS that protects my cable modem, RPI router, and POE switch which serves 2 APs. That lasts about 30 minutes, which gives me enough time to fire up my generator. I'd assume it doesn't take you that long to fire up the genie, if you are home when the power goes out :-). Out of interest, depending on how long you've had the UPS, how many times have you changed the battery? Tip of the day: I also have a 1000va UPS that protects my garage door opener. This makes it a lot easier to a. get a car out if needed, and b. get my generator out of the garage. In South Africa, garage door motors historically come standard with a 12V 7Ah Lead Acid battery. What most people don't realize is that within 1.5 to 2 years, those batteries are dead, and since there was power most of the time, they never noticed, until the power went out and the battery did not have sufficient energy to drive the motor. It is not uncommon to see folk here moving to Li-Ion batteries with the same capacity to drive garage and gate motors. Personally, I try to only use Li-Ion packs in well ventilated, not-too-tight spaces, that come with a BMS and a charger that is predictable :-). So I avoid these little ones, and feel safer with Lead Acid batteries for garage and gate motors. Lastly, in the spirit of happy wife, happy life, I have another 600va UPS that covers my tankless water heater. It heats using natural gas, but the control panel still needs power. That thing lasts pretty long. There are tankless water heaters that can take standard AA batteries to spark the igniter as well, but yes, if yours is electric, makes sense to put a UPS on it. At my place, I use both a PV-based controller to heat traditional water tanks, and also have just as many tankless water heaters. The former is for end-of-day showers and dish washing once the sun has done its thing, the latter is for the morning jobs for the same things, or if it's cloudy/rainy outside. Even though I have whole-home backup, I did place a UPS on the PV-based controller, because even if it is connected to solar panels, it is still, in essence, an inverter, meaning it requires a grid before it can generate solar power. That is what the UPS does for it. It was my first deployment of renewable energy, so I needed the UPS before I backed up the entire home. YMMV, of course, but I went through numerous outages recently. And by numerous, I mean enough for our City leadership to get pissed off at PG and demand explanations. Judging by our situation, I'd take the city leadership demanding explanations any day :-). We are way past that, down here. It's so bad, folk are deploying self-generation and self-storage by the truck loads. It's the gold rush for solar and battery installers right now. People have all but given up on the power company (Eskom) ever going back to its glory days. So far, my current ISP (Spectrum cable) has had 0 outages as a result of power loss. Which is pretty impressive, given the instability of the grid in this area. Not bad. Mark.
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On 2/3/23 19:53, Saku Ytti wrote: In practice I would default to expecting 0 min availability during power outage, regardless of how resilient my CPE is. We can scarcely make the Internet work at the best of times. Agreed, this is a good place to start. It's a bit doom & gloom, but most people underestimate just how much work it takes power companies to generate and distribute energy. Consequently, they never have to think about generation and/or load management, if they had to do it on their own, meaning they will usually consider the cheapest solution possible, which for electricity, usually ends in tears. Mark.
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On 2/3/23 19:25, Brian Turnbow via NANOG wrote: They have been discussing it here in Italy as well. The isp/telecommunication industry here is tryng to get Cos/pops/cabinets listed as critical infra and removed from rolling power cuts. I would say plan for the worst, because there will always be some other department or governmental function that says they are more critical than the next one. And even if they may designate certain functions as critical, electrical distribution grids are not always built to that degree of granularity, and those critical functions are often caught in the crossfire as other non-critical loads are shed from the network. And even after all that, if the blackouts need to intensify, all bets are off, since the main purpose then becomes preventing grid frequency drop, rather than servicing loads. Here this is mainly ran from pops that have ups and generator systems so several hours to days of uptime depending on site. If major data centres need to spend more on fuel than they planned for, I'd suggest making a generous allocation for an increase in co-lo costs for your next budget cycle, as the data centres will, invariably, pass those costs on the longer the city has to shed power from the grid. OTOH I have seen providers daisy chain customer sites in a ring that crash miserably when 2 customers loose power isolating all in between sites. But that is not the norm... This is one of the reasons we refuse to turn customer sites into Metro-E PoP's, or PoP's of any kind. Street cabinets for fttc services here have low times if any. Same thing for mini dslams mounted on poles in the middle of nowhere. 0 to 2 hours for these. Most have batteries/capacitors in the cabinet but not all and they are not designed for extended power outages 2 hours max. Some are remotely powered from the CO, but that does not seem to be a thing anymore. Too costly DSL ran from COs are protected as for fiber above. A lot of this will be driven by what competitors do. If there is no competition that can keep their street cabinets going, the others won't. It's a great opportunity for anyone willing to make lemonade out of the situation. Don't operate a 4g network, so take this info accordingly , but here it depends on the tower from what I have seen. All towers I have seen have battery backup , a lot have generators too. I would say they have higher times than the fttc times above. In dense metro's, mobile sites will be well invested. It starts to get tricky when you go out into the sticks. Also, when the power goes out, so does the wi-fi. That means everybody moves their traffic away from the home wi-fi and on to the nearest cell tower. While radio bandwidth and signal coverage does not suffer that much, it hits the backhaul hard, between the tower and the mobile carrier's core. So nice flashing LTE/4G/5G signals on your phone translates to GPRS-esque performance. In some cases, we have seen mobile operators downgrade radio coverage to 3G, in order to manage this. Who knew 3G performed a bad as GPRS or EDGE, in 2023 :-)? In the most extreme of case, the cell site could run out of power as well, as there isn't enough time for the batteries to recharge between outage cycles, or the field teams can't replenish fuel for the generators in time. In the absolutely extreme cases (as we see here in South Africa, for example), cell sites can be raided and batteries stolen, especially if there is darkness all around. I would not expect this to be the case in the UK, especially if power outages are not the norm and people live a fairly middle-class life, but if I were Vodafone, for example, I'd have my risk department planning for such an eventuality already. Mark.
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On 2/3/23 16:11, Israel G. Lugo wrote: Hi folks, At $day_job, I have a team of engineers who are oncall for critical services in the United Kingdom. For $reasons, the national power grid is announcing the possibility of rolling power cuts over the coming months. Right now it's "unlikely", but possible. If cuts do happen, it'll be 3+ hours, possibly several times/day. I'm looking at the cost/benefit of deploying small UPSes at people's homes, to protect their network access when oncall. Just to power the home router (+ONT if FTTP), and keep a charged laptop. I figure anything smallish should be enough for a few hours. Question is, how much battery runtime can I typically expect from ISPs' last mile infra. People will have a random mix of DSL, FTTP, DOCSIS. Another alternative is tethering with 4G. - For FTTP, I *think* (but am not sure) that the UK mostly uses PON, so guess it would be runtime of OLT and onwards - For DSL: runtime of DSLAM cabinet and onwards - For CATV: CMTS and onwards, maybe any active equipments in the HFC to the CPE? - For 4G: BSS and onwards Could anyone with last mile experience help with some ballpark figures? I.e. 15 min vs 8h or 8 days. Living in South Africa where load shedding is the order of the day since the end of last year (and to continue for the next 2 years, at least, if not more), I can tell you that until network operators have had to deal with this, they are ill-prepared. For equipment inside major data centres, you will be fine. But for equipment in commercial buildings, street cabinets, e.t.c., uptime will be directly related to how much faith operators have put into the national grid, which translates to some UPS, and whether the building or cabinet is serviced by a well maintained generator. As for the home, a UPS is not a terribly good idea to keep the "wi-fi" going... typical UPS's use Lead Acid batteries which are shallow-cycle batteries that are not meant to be discharged below 50%. It's the usual disclaimer - UPS's are meant to give you time to save your work and shutdown, not provide extended backup. If customers expect the power to be out for 3+ hours at a time, multiple times a day, I'd recommend getting a cheap 1.6kW inverter that can power a 24V 100Ah Li-Ion battery (either 1x 24V or 2x 12V in series). It's not a lot of energy, but if you are powering the CPE + ONU + IP phone, it's more than enough (you can easily squeeze 9hrs of continuous run-time on a single charge, maybe even more). While these inverters are slow to charge Li-Ion batteries (about 10A of charge current), the load is so minimal that the battery is being discharged even slower. So it works out, even with extended, multiple outages in a 24-hour cycle. Operators running gear outside of major data centres will want to invest in large Li-Ion packs designed for the load and frequency of grid outages. Investing in Lead Acid batteries, while cheaper initially, will become operationally expensive, as they don't do well with high-cycle counts, even the deep discharge ones. Not to mention, the rather poor energy density they possess for the amount of weight they carry. Depending on the importance of the site, some solar power may be necessary, even though the UK is not the most well-lit country in the world. For such cases, you can augment the solar plant with a generator, mainly to recharge the batteries, rather than to power the load. Mark.
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On 2/3/23 06:11, Israel G. Lugo wrote: Question is, how much battery runtime can I typically expect from ISPs' last mile infra. See comments inline, this is my experience in the US. UK may be substantially different. People will have a random mix of DSL, FTTP, DOCSIS. Another alternative is tethering with 4G. - For FTTP, I *think* (but am not sure) that the UK mostly uses PON, so guess it would be runtime of OLT and onwards This is likely to run indefinitely. OLTs are for the most part going to be in telco central offices and datacenters with reliable generator backup. PON outside plant covers long distances passively, not requiring any local power. - For DSL: runtime of DSLAM cabinet and onwards If fed directly from the central office, indefinite. If fed from a remote terminal, maybe a couple of hours assuming that there are batteries installed at the terminal (and that the batteries are maintained). - For CATV: CMTS and onwards, maybe any active equipments in the HFC to the CPE? DOCSIS/CATV is likely to go dark pretty much instantaneously on loss of local power unless your customer is very close to the HFC head-end. Outside cable plant is fed with AC power injected locally at power poles or at pedestals into the center conductor of the coaxial trunk line. This powers the trunk amplifiers and fiber-to-coax media converters. This isn't typically backed up at all. Cable companies figure that if the power is out nobody is watching TV or using the Internet. Sometimes there may be a small UPS but I wouldn't expect more than a few minutes runtime. In the case of prolonged outages I've occasionally seen a small Honda generator chained to a pole feeding one of the power injectors but this was very obviously a manual process done a while after the outage started where the power outage was localized and there were probably some VIP customers unaffected by the power outage. - For 4G: BSS and onwards Cell sites typically have generator backup. Figure at least a day. A prolonged outage requiring refueling with weather making it difficult to get fuel to the site(s) could be a problem. -- Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
Contact for androidpolice.com
Any contacts available that are responsible for androidpolice.com website hosting? Some of our IP space is not able to access their website. Other IP addresses of ours are working just fine. This appears to be some kind HTTP protocol layer issue but only affecting certain IP addresses. I am guessing it is some kind of web application firewall using outdated IP list data. Yes I know it is hosted at Amazon but every time I have tried to go through Amazon for support with websites they are hosting, they have 100% of the time told me they can't and/or won't help me with website hosting issues on their web platform; I have to go through their customer... which I don't have any good contact info for. I've tried reaching them on twitter, I've tried blindly emailing people listed on their website guessing their email addresses, etc. I have had zero response. Thanks! Justin
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
- On Feb 3, 2023, at 6:11 AM, Israel G. Lugo israel.l...@lugosys.com wrote: Hi, > I'm looking at the cost/benefit of deploying small UPSes at people's > homes, to protect their network access when oncall. Just to power the > home router (+ONT if FTTP), and keep a charged laptop. I figure anything > smallish should be enough for a few hours. Living in an area served by PG, I've had my share of power cuts. At home I have a 600va UPS that protects my cable modem, RPI router, and POE switch which serves 2 APs. That lasts about 30 minutes, which gives me enough time to fire up my generator. Tip of the day: I also have a 1000va UPS that protects my garage door opener. This makes it a lot easier to a. get a car out if needed, and b. get my generator out of the garage. Lastly, in the spirit of happy wife, happy life, I have another 600va UPS that covers my tankless water heater. It heats using natural gas, but the control panel still needs power. That thing lasts pretty long. > Question is, how much battery runtime can I typically expect from ISPs' > last mile infra. YMMV, of course, but I went through numerous outages recently. And by numerous, I mean enough for our City leadership to get pissed off at PG and demand explanations. So far, my current ISP (Spectrum cable) has had 0 outages as a result of power loss. Which is pretty impressive, given the instability of the grid in this area. Thanks, Sabri
Weekly Global IPv4 Routing Table Report
This is an automated weekly mailing describing the state of the Global IPv4 Routing Table as seen from APNIC's router in Japan. The posting is sent to APOPS, NANOG, AfNOG, SANOG, PacNOG, SAFNOG TZNOG, MENOG, BJNOG, SDNOG, CMNOG, LACNOG and the RIPE Routing WG. Daily listings are sent to bgp-st...@lists.apnic.net. For historical data, please see https://thyme.apnic.net. If you have any comments please contact Philip Smith . IPv4 Routing Table Report 04:00 +10GMT Sat 04 Feb, 2023 BGP Table (Global) as seen in Japan. Report Website: https://thyme.apnic.net Detailed Analysis: https://thyme.apnic.net/current/ Analysis Summary BGP routing table entries examined: 919404 Prefixes after maximum aggregation (per Origin AS): 347822 Deaggregation factor: 2.64 Unique aggregates announced (without unneeded subnets): 445727 Total ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 74078 Prefixes per ASN: 12.41 Origin-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 63572 Origin ASes announcing only one prefix: 26134 Transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 10506 Transit-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:438 Average AS path length visible in the Internet Routing Table: 4.2 Max AS path length visible: 55 Max AS path prepend of ASN (265020) 50 Prefixes from unregistered ASNs in the Routing Table: 951 Number of instances of unregistered ASNs: 961 Number of 32-bit ASNs allocated by the RIRs: 41183 Number of 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table: 34103 Prefixes from 32-bit ASNs in the Routing Table: 166598 Number of bogon 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table:31 Special use prefixes present in the Routing Table:1 Prefixes being announced from unallocated address space:521 Number of addresses announced to Internet: 3062699648 Equivalent to 182 /8s, 141 /16s and 22 /24s Percentage of available address space announced: 82.7 Percentage of allocated address space announced: 82.7 Percentage of available address space allocated: 100.0 Percentage of address space in use by end-sites: 99.6 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 312179 APNIC Region Analysis Summary - Prefixes being announced by APNIC Region ASes: 240580 Total APNIC prefixes after maximum aggregation: 68793 APNIC Deaggregation factor:3.50 Prefixes being announced from the APNIC address blocks: 235600 Unique aggregates announced from the APNIC address blocks:97865 APNIC Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 13261 APNIC Prefixes per ASN: 17.77 APNIC Region origin ASes announcing only one prefix: 3847 APNIC Region transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 1771 Average APNIC Region AS path length visible:4.4 Max APNIC Region AS path length visible: 26 Number of APNIC region 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table: 8531 Number of APNIC addresses announced to Internet: 773543680 Equivalent to 46 /8s, 27 /16s and 87 /24s APNIC AS Blocks4608-4864, 7467-7722, 9216-10239, 17408-18431 (pre-ERX allocations) 23552-24575, 37888-38911, 45056-46079, 55296-56319, 58368-59391, 63488-64098, 64297-64395, 131072-151865 APNIC Address Blocks 1/8, 14/8, 27/8, 36/8, 39/8, 42/8, 43/8, 49/8, 58/8, 59/8, 60/8, 61/8, 101/8, 103/8, 106/8, 110/8, 111/8, 112/8, 113/8, 114/8, 115/8, 116/8, 117/8, 118/8, 119/8, 120/8, 121/8, 122/8, 123/8, 124/8, 125/8, 126/8, 133/8, 150/8, 153/8, 163/8, 171/8, 175/8, 180/8, 182/8, 183/8, 202/8, 203/8, 210/8, 211/8, 218/8, 219/8, 220/8, 221/8, 222/8, 223/8, ARIN Region Analysis Summary Prefixes being announced by ARIN Region ASes:267075 Total ARIN prefixes after maximum aggregation: 121357 ARIN Deaggregation factor: 2.20 Prefixes being announced from the ARIN address blocks: 269014 Unique aggregates announced from the ARIN address blocks:130096 ARIN Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:19068 ARIN Prefixes per ASN:
Re: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 at 16:15, Israel G. Lugo wrote: > Could anyone with last mile experience help with some ballpark figures? > I.e. 15 min vs 8h or 8 days. This would be highly market specific. In many cases, probably most cases, there is no regulatory requirement for availability for internet service whatsoever. One specific case where it is regulated, Finland, the regulation is available in Finnish, Swedish and English, the English document is available at: https://www.finlex.fi/data/normit/47143/05_Regulation_on_resilience_of_communications_networks_and_services_and_of_synchronisation_of_communications_networks.pdf It classifies service to five priorities with different availability requirements. From your ballpark, 8h would be the closest fit, but in theory the higher priorities have indefinite availability before the system is exhausted by means of generation. In practice I would default to expecting 0 min availability during power outage, regardless of how resilient my CPE is. We can scarcely make the Internet work at the best of times. -- ++ytti
RE: Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
Hi, > At $day_job, I have a team of engineers who are oncall for critical services > in > the United Kingdom. For $reasons, the national power grid is announcing the > possibility of rolling power cuts over the coming months. > Right now it's "unlikely", but possible. If cuts do happen, it'll be 3+ hours, > possibly several times/day. They have been discussing it here in Italy as well. The isp/telecommunication industry here is tryng to get Cos/pops/cabinets listed as critical infra and removed from rolling power cuts. > Question is, how much battery runtime can I typically expect from ISPs' > last mile infra. > > - For FTTP, I *think* (but am not sure) that the UK mostly uses PON, so guess > it would be runtime of OLT and onwards Here this is mainly ran from pops that have ups and generator systems so several hours to days of uptime depending on site. OTOH I have seen providers daisy chain customer sites in a ring that crash miserably when 2 customers loose power isolating all in between sites. But that is not the norm... > - For DSL: runtime of DSLAM cabinet and onwards Street cabinets for fttc services here have low times if any. Same thing for mini dslams mounted on poles in the middle of nowhere. 0 to 2 hours for these. Most have batteries/capacitors in the cabinet but not all and they are not designed for extended power outages 2 hours max. Some are remotely powered from the CO, but that does not seem to be a thing anymore. Too costly DSL ran from COs are protected as for fiber above. > - For CATV: CMTS and onwards, maybe any active equipments in the HFC to > the CPE? > - For 4G: BSS and onwards Don't operate a 4g network, so take this info accordingly , but here it depends on the tower from what I have seen. All towers I have seen have battery backup , a lot have generators too. I would say they have higher times than the fttc times above. HTH Brian
Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List (Patrick Garner)
I think the bright orange is so you don't run over it with your lawn mower, especially since it's going to be there for 3 years. You'd think in the 3 years in the US South it would be grown over and buried itself. From: NANOG on behalf of Patrick Garner Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 10:16 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List (Patrick Garner) We have the same issue here in suburban Atlanta but with Comcast. The Comcast ped in my front yard has no cover... it's exposed to the elements. There's a bright orange cable running from there to my neighbor's house, it's been there for at least 3 years. At the least, it doesn't touch my property. There's other spots in my neighborhood where Comcast's bright orange coax just runs on the ground, along the road, in the gutter. Not saying AT is the greatest but at the very least their peds(they are so old they still say Bellsouth) have covers and they come within 3 days of install to bury DSL lines. I don't understand why Comcast has to choose the absolute ugliest bright orange cables to leave everywhere. If you're going to leave it, at least use a black cable. Yay duopoly! -- Patrick Garner Owner Cherokee Communications LLC 404-406-9864 patrick@cherokee.network
Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List (Patrick Garner)
We have the same issue here in suburban Atlanta but with Comcast. The Comcast ped in my front yard has no cover... it's exposed to the elements. There's a bright orange cable running from there to my neighbor's house, it's been there for at least 3 years. At the least, it doesn't touch my property. There's other spots in my neighborhood where Comcast's bright orange coax just runs on the ground, along the road, in the gutter. Not saying AT is the greatest but at the very least their peds(they are so old they still say Bellsouth) have covers and they come within 3 days of install to bury DSL lines. I don't understand why Comcast has to choose the absolute ugliest bright orange cables to leave everywhere. If you're going to leave it, at least use a black cable. Yay duopoly! -- Patrick Garner Owner Cherokee Communications LLC 404-406-9864 patrick@cherokee.network
Typical last mile battery runtime (protecting against power cuts)
Hi folks, At $day_job, I have a team of engineers who are oncall for critical services in the United Kingdom. For $reasons, the national power grid is announcing the possibility of rolling power cuts over the coming months. Right now it's "unlikely", but possible. If cuts do happen, it'll be 3+ hours, possibly several times/day. I'm looking at the cost/benefit of deploying small UPSes at people's homes, to protect their network access when oncall. Just to power the home router (+ONT if FTTP), and keep a charged laptop. I figure anything smallish should be enough for a few hours. Question is, how much battery runtime can I typically expect from ISPs' last mile infra. People will have a random mix of DSL, FTTP, DOCSIS. Another alternative is tethering with 4G. - For FTTP, I *think* (but am not sure) that the UK mostly uses PON, so guess it would be runtime of OLT and onwards - For DSL: runtime of DSLAM cabinet and onwards - For CATV: CMTS and onwards, maybe any active equipments in the HFC to the CPE? - For 4G: BSS and onwards Could anyone with last mile experience help with some ballpark figures? I.e. 15 min vs 8h or 8 days. Thank you, Israel
Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List
Yet the independents are doing it anyway. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP - Original Message - From: "Eric Kuhnke" To: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" Cc: "nanog list" Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 6:46:01 PM Subject: Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List It might look low cost until you look at a post-1980s suburb in the USA or Canada where 100% of the utilities are underground. There may be no fiber or duct routes. Just old coax used for DOCSIS3 owned/run by the local cable incumbent and copper POTS wiring belonging to the ILEC. The cost to retrofit such a neighborhood and reach every house with a fiber architecture can be quite high in construction and labor. On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 9:14 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) < li...@packetflux.com > wrote: The cost to build physical layer in much of the suburban and somewhat rural US is low enough anymore that lots of smaller, independent, ISPs are overbuilding the incumbent with fiber and taking a big chunk of their customer base because they are local and care. And making money while doing it. On Thu, Feb 2, 2023, 8:22 AM Masataka Ohta < mo...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp > wrote: Mike Hammett wrote: > I selfishly hope they don't because that's where independent > operators will succeed. ;-) Because of natural regional monopoly at physical layer (cabling cost for a certain region is same between competitors but their revenues are proportional to their regional market shares), they can't succeed unless the physical layer is regulated to be unbundled, which is hard with PON. But, in US where regional telephone network has been operated by, unlike Europe/Japan, a private company enjoying natural regional monopoly, economic situation today should be no worse than that at that time. Masataka Ohta
Re: Spectrum (legacy TWC) Infrastructure - Contact Off List
At 08:43 PM 02/02/2023, Eric Kuhnke wrote: There is "microtrenching" and then there is microtrenching. Very different things are sometimes described by the same name. Some of what Google tried to go was exceedingly shallow, like 4 inches down. Cheap microtrenching done too quick and too shallow has given the concept a bad name. The local ILEC is doing that here - they use a spade to make a little slot in the customer's lawn and shove the cable in. If they have to cross a driveway or sidewalk, they dig out the expansion joint, shove the cable in and dump some cold patch in the gap. If they have to run multiple cables, they use a concrete saw to make the gap a bit wider. There is microtrenched fiber in Vancouver BC that is close to 20 years old now throughout the downtown core that is nearly problem-free. The difference is that it is 12+ inches down and was installed using large, noisy, water cooled diamond-grit concrete saws cutting deep slits into the joints between streets and curbs, or concrete curbs and sidewalks, duct inserted, then backfilled with grouting. It's deep enough where it crosses roads that re-paving the road by first grinding off the top several inches of surface is extremely unlikely to disturb the duct. I'm familiar with the slightly more robust technique deployed by companies like Teraspan. I'm sure it works much better in the milder climate in BC. There are microtrench/VIF networks in Toronto and Ottawa as well. A few years ago, they were re-building one of the roads in the downtown core in Toronto, and the entire microtrenched network (mini handholes and all) had been lifted out of the street area and laid on the sidewalk, and protected with barriers and safety cones, etc.I just shook my head... -- Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E Windsor, Ontario N8W 1H4 tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409
