Re: 429 Too Many Requests

[Daniel Marks via NANOG]

Have you reached out to Fastly? They’re pretty quick to throttle in my experience.Sent from my iPhoneOn Jun 23, 2023, at 00:13, Joshua Pool via NANOG  wrote:Anyone ever had to deal with etsy.com returning 429 for all subnets? We have very little traffic going to etsy at any given moment but every prefix we have returns a 429 Too Many Requests error when trying to get to etsy.com. Regards,               Josh


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Mike Hammett]

I view throwing everything into NOVA as being lazy. Throwing so many at one 
place isn't good for resiliency. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Sean Donelan"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 3:02:20 PM 
Subject: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers 


Backlash to data centers prompts political upset in northern Virginia 
By MATTHEW BARAKAT 
https://apnews.com/article/virginia-election-data-centers-prince-william-229cb44d34ccf4bd1cc4e9f0d0131649
 

FALLS CHURCH, Va. (AP) — The tech industry’s drive to dot the Virginia 
landscape with data centers may have hit a glitch this week in Prince 
William County. 

[...] 
The plan, called the Prince William Digital Gateway, prompted one of the 
region’s biggest land-use disputes in decades. It was approved despite 
vocal opposition from residents concerned that the data centers are noisy, 
ugly, and consume massive amounts of electricity that require the addition 
of high-voltage transmission lines. 

[...] 
Josh Levi, president of the Data Center Coalition, an industry trade 
group, said that data centers can make a compelling argument to local 
officials about the tax benefits that accrue from hosting data centers. 

“The industry prioritizes maintaining an open, active, and collaborative 
dialogue with elected officials and candidates for office, their 
constituents, and other community stakeholders,” he said in a statement. 

[...] 

Weekly Global IPv4 Routing Table Report

[Routing Table Analysis Role Account]

This is an automated weekly mailing describing the state of the Global
IPv4 Routing Table as seen from APNIC's router in Japan.

The posting is sent to APOPS, NANOG, AfNOG, SANOG, PacNOG, SAFNOG
TZNOG, MENOG, BJNOG, SDNOG, CMNOG, LACNOG and the RIPE Routing WG.

Daily listings are sent to bgp-st...@lists.apnic.net.

For historical data, please see https://thyme.apnic.net.

If you have any comments please contact Philip Smith .

IPv4 Routing Table Report   04:00 +10GMT Sat 24 Jun, 2023

  BGP Table (Global) as seen in Japan.

Report Website: https://thyme.apnic.net
Detailed Analysis:  https://thyme.apnic.net/current/

Analysis Summary


BGP routing table entries examined:  926756
Prefixes after maximum aggregation (per Origin AS):  351055
Deaggregation factor:  2.64
Unique aggregates announced (without unneeded subnets):  451294
Total ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 74556
Prefixes per ASN: 12.43
Origin-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:   64018
Origin ASes announcing only one prefix:   26297
Transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:   10538
Transit-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:439
Average AS path length visible in the Internet Routing Table:   4.3
Max AS path length visible:  52
Max AS path prepend of ASN (265020)  50
Prefixes from unregistered ASNs in the Routing Table:  1011
Number of instances of unregistered ASNs:  1015
Number of 32-bit ASNs allocated by the RIRs:  42143
Number of 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table:   34750
Prefixes from 32-bit ASNs in the Routing Table:  173096
Number of bogon 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table:25
Special use prefixes present in the Routing Table:1
Prefixes being announced from unallocated address space:566
Number of addresses announced to Internet:   3055960832
Equivalent to 182 /8s, 38 /16s and 67 /24s
Percentage of available address space announced:   82.5
Percentage of allocated address space announced:   82.5
Percentage of available address space allocated:  100.0
Percentage of address space in use by end-sites:   99.6
Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations:  309129

APNIC Region Analysis Summary
-

Prefixes being announced by APNIC Region ASes:   246375
Total APNIC prefixes after maximum aggregation:   69688
APNIC Deaggregation factor:3.54
Prefixes being announced from the APNIC address blocks:  240356
Unique aggregates announced from the APNIC address blocks:98626
APNIC Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:   13490
APNIC Prefixes per ASN:   17.82
APNIC Region origin ASes announcing only one prefix:   3986
APNIC Region transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:   1792
Average APNIC Region AS path length visible:4.5
Max APNIC Region AS path length visible: 26
Number of APNIC region 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table:   8806
Number of APNIC addresses announced to Internet:  773910656
Equivalent to 46 /8s, 32 /16s and 240 /24s
APNIC AS Blocks4608-4864, 7467-7722, 9216-10239, 17408-18431
(pre-ERX allocations)  23552-24575, 37888-38911, 45056-46079, 55296-56319,
   58368-59391, 63488-64098, 64297-64395, 131072-153913
APNIC Address Blocks 1/8,  14/8,  27/8,  36/8,  39/8,  42/8,  43/8,
49/8,  58/8,  59/8,  60/8,  61/8, 101/8, 103/8,
   106/8, 110/8, 111/8, 112/8, 113/8, 114/8, 115/8,
   116/8, 117/8, 118/8, 119/8, 120/8, 121/8, 122/8,
   123/8, 124/8, 125/8, 126/8, 133/8, 150/8, 153/8,
   163/8, 171/8, 175/8, 180/8, 182/8, 183/8, 202/8,
   203/8, 210/8, 211/8, 218/8, 219/8, 220/8, 221/8,
   222/8, 223/8,

ARIN Region Analysis Summary


Prefixes being announced by ARIN Region ASes:271252
Total ARIN prefixes after maximum aggregation:   123431
ARIN Deaggregation factor: 2.20
Prefixes being announced from the ARIN address blocks:   273839
Unique aggregates announced from the ARIN address blocks:130833
ARIN Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:19129
ARIN Prefixes per ASN:

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Christopher Morrow]

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> I view throwing everything into NOVA as being lazy. Throwing so many at one 
> place isn't good for resiliency.

there's nyc and chicago and california :) (and dallas)
but.. :)

The discussions in local news (in nova) seem to center around:
  "but the noise!"
  "but the beautiful scenery!"
  "but the water poisoning!!"

there were, apparently, some actual problems with how
prince-william-county did their re-zoning work...
like, I think, one of the administration folks 'had a ton of money
tied up in DC company stock...' (that person may have recused
themselves, but)

If you peel back the layers a bunch of it actually looks pretty
horrible for the people protesting:
  "NIMBY problems"
  "Our 'heritage'"

i'm sure it'll work out in the end, but ... gonna be fun to watch.

>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
> 
> From: "Sean Donelan" 
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 3:02:20 PM
> Subject: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers
>
>
> Backlash to data centers prompts political upset in northern Virginia
> By MATTHEW BARAKAT
> https://apnews.com/article/virginia-election-data-centers-prince-william-229cb44d34ccf4bd1cc4e9f0d0131649
>
> FALLS CHURCH, Va. (AP) — The tech industry’s drive to dot the Virginia
> landscape with data centers may have hit a glitch this week in Prince
> William County.
>
> [...]
> The plan, called the Prince William Digital Gateway, prompted one of the
> region’s biggest land-use disputes in decades. It was approved despite
> vocal opposition from residents concerned that the data centers are noisy,
> ugly, and consume massive amounts of electricity that require the addition
> of high-voltage transmission lines.
>
> [...]
> Josh Levi, president of the Data Center Coalition, an industry trade
> group, said that data centers can make a compelling argument to local
> officials about the tax benefits that accrue from hosting data centers.
>
> “The industry prioritizes maintaining an open, active, and collaborative
> dialogue with elected officials and candidates for office, their
> constituents, and other community stakeholders,” he said in a statement.
>
> [...]
>

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[William Herrin]

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 12:19 PM Christopher Morrow
 wrote:
> The discussions in local news (in nova) seem to center around:
>   "but the noise!"
>
> i'm sure it'll work out in the end, but ... gonna be fun to watch.

There is apparently a problem in nearby West Virginia where someone
built a cryptomining facility using free air cooling and it disturbs
the neighbors. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/18/bitcoin-mining-noise-pollution-appalachia/

Even traditional data centers have not been known to be especially
considerate about scheduling their -loud- genset tests. Doesn't matter
so much in the middle of an industrial zone but when you do it near
where people live you're going to make them angry.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Delong.com via NANOG]

> On Jun 23, 2023, at 12:19, Christopher Morrow  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett  > wrote:
>> 
>> I view throwing everything into NOVA as being lazy. Throwing so many at one 
>> place isn't good for resiliency.
> 
> there's nyc and chicago and california :) (and dallas)
> but.. :)
> 
> The discussions in local news (in nova) seem to center around:
>  "but the noise!"

This is relatively silly unless the local grid is extraordinarily unreliable. 
Unless the generators are running,
you can rarely hear a datacenter beyond the bounds of its parking lot.

>  "but the beautiful scenery!"

This one might be somewhat valid if it wasn’t likely to become some other form 
of warehouse anyway.

>  "but the water poisoning!!"

??? I find it hard to believe that data centers are big emitters of water 
pollution. Someone’s going to have
to explain this one to me.

> there were, apparently, some actual problems with how
> prince-william-county did their re-zoning work...
> like, I think, one of the administration folks 'had a ton of money
> tied up in DC company stock...' (that person may have recused
> themselves, but)
> 
> If you peel back the layers a bunch of it actually looks pretty
> horrible for the people protesting:
>  "NIMBY problems"
>  "Our 'heritage'"
> 
> i'm sure it'll work out in the end, but ... gonna be fun to watch.

I’ll bring marshmallows, who wants to bring the chocolate and the graham 
crackers to this dumpster fire?

Owen

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Christopher Morrow]

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 3:57 PM William Herrin  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 12:19 PM Christopher Morrow
>  wrote:
> > The discussions in local news (in nova) seem to center around:
> >   "but the noise!"
> >
> > i'm sure it'll work out in the end, but ... gonna be fun to watch.
>
> There is apparently a problem in nearby West Virginia where someone
> built a cryptomining facility using free air cooling and it disturbs
> the neighbors. 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/18/bitcoin-mining-noise-pollution-appalachia/

arguably, people buying into the idea that blatantly flim-flamming
folks aren't going to flim-flamming them is.. not related here, at
all.
(that article is about limestone, TN, not west virginia - west nor
virginia appear in the article)

> Even traditional data centers have not been known to be especially
> considerate about scheduling their -loud- genset tests. Doesn't matter
> so much in the middle of an industrial zone but when you do it near
> where people live you're going to make them angry.

sure, I believe the various nova parts have reasonable agreements
about how/when to do these
sorts of tests though.

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Christopher Morrow]

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 5:36 PM Delong.com  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2023, at 12:19, Christopher Morrow  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>
> I view throwing everything into NOVA as being lazy. Throwing so many at one 
> place isn't good for resiliency.
>
>
> there's nyc and chicago and california :) (and dallas)
> but.. :)
>
> The discussions in local news (in nova) seem to center around:
>  "but the noise!"
>
>
> This is relatively silly unless the local grid is extraordinarily unreliable. 
> Unless the generators are running,
> you can rarely hear a datacenter beyond the bounds of its parking lot.

yes.

>  "but the beautiful scenery!"
>
>
> This one might be somewhat valid if it wasn’t likely to become some other 
> form of warehouse anyway.
>

it's their 'heritage' that they are worried about.

>  "but the water poisoning!!"
>
>
> ??? I find it hard to believe that data centers are big emitters of water 
> pollution. Someone’s going to have
> to explain this one to me.
>

there's plenty of, already available, discussion about how this is
just a trope being used instead of 'but our heritage'.
yea, it's just not at all an actual problem.

> there were, apparently, some actual problems with how
> prince-william-county did their re-zoning work...
> like, I think, one of the administration folks 'had a ton of money
> tied up in DC company stock...' (that person may have recused
> themselves, but)
>
> If you peel back the layers a bunch of it actually looks pretty
> horrible for the people protesting:
>  "NIMBY problems"
>  "Our 'heritage'"
>
> i'm sure it'll work out in the end, but ... gonna be fun to watch.
>
>
> I’ll bring marshmallows, who wants to bring the chocolate and the graham 
> crackers to this dumpster fire?

I have 1 lawn chair, you'll need to bring your own.

> Owen
>

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Sean Donelan]

Northern Virginia has about 275 data centers

The noise complaints are about HVAC fan noise (24-hour droning) from 
cooling towers or roof top farms of evaporative condensers.


The water complaints are about the one-use water cooling towers

The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making the 
entire region less stable and proposed construction of new high-voltage 
tower corridors for data centers.


And if you didn't know, some VC-funded companies can be a**-holes and 
not known for being good neighbors or anything besides making money.


And yes, I helped design & build several early data centers in NOVA :-)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/02/10/data-centers-northern-virginia-internet/

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Joel Halpern]

I will note that the grid in Loudoun county (arguably the center of the 
Northern Virginia data center boom) has actually gotten a LOT better 
than it was when I first moved here.  Some of that was rebuild started 
before the surge, due to just how bad it was.  But I am fairly sure that 
some of it is a side-effect of the build itself.


Yours,

Joel

On 6/23/2023 6:17 PM, Sean Donelan wrote:


Northern Virginia has about 275 data centers

The noise complaints are about HVAC fan noise (24-hour droning) from 
cooling towers or roof top farms of evaporative condensers.


The water complaints are about the one-use water cooling towers

The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making 
the entire region less stable and proposed construction of new 
high-voltage tower corridors for data centers.


And if you didn't know, some VC-funded companies can be a**-holes and 
not known for being good neighbors or anything besides making money.


And yes, I helped design & build several early data centers in NOVA :-)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/02/10/data-centers-northern-virginia-internet/ 

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Delong.com via NANOG]

> On Jun 23, 2023, at 15:17, Sean Donelan  wrote:
> 
> 
> Northern Virginia has about 275 data centers

There’s probably close to that number in the South Bay Area of California as 
well.

> The noise complaints are about HVAC fan noise (24-hour droning) from cooling 
> towers or roof top farms of evaporative condensers.

I get it, but reality is that at most datacenter, this noise simply disappears 
once you get much outside of the parking lot. Especially if there’s a busy 
roadway anywhere nearby.

> The water complaints are about the one-use water cooling towers

That does seem rather silly… We don’t have those in California.

> The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making the 
> entire region less stable and proposed construction of new high-voltage tower 
> corridors for data centers.

Yeah, I can kind of understand those, but as long as the grid is properly 
planned, it really shouldn’t have a destabilizing effect. In fact, many 
datacenter in California do CoGen and end up providing additional grid 
stability.

> And if you didn't know, some VC-funded companies can be a**-holes and not 
> known for being good neighbors or anything besides making money.

Oh, yeah… We have those here too.

> And yes, I helped design & build several early data centers in NOVA :-)
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/02/10/data-centers-northern-virginia-internet/

No doubt.

Owen

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Sean Donelan]

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Delong.com wrote:

Northern Virginia has about 275 data centers


There’s probably close to that number in the South Bay Area of California as 
well.


California is well-known for its state enviromental laws and zoning, so 
some of the issues with the 'wild-west' zoning of rural Virginia are 
different.


When data centers developers aren't required to add cost in NOVA, they 
don't.  No water conservation, no air-quality controls, no off-site sound 
silencers.  Stuff that may be required by California zoning.


I remember when we specified 'hospital-grade' silencers on outdoor 
equipment; and the push-back about the 'extra-cost.'


NOVA counties had zoning rules about decibel levels, but not sound 
frequencies or duration.  The fan noise from the largest data centers in 
NOVA/Maryland have been measured up to a couple of miles away.


While the noise level may be less than the legal decibel level, the 
24-hour drone (frequency) seems to penetrate standard house and building 
construction in NOVA. Its the night-time constant fan droning noises when 
people are trying to sleep which cause the most complaints.




As data centers proliferate, neighbors knock the noise
https://wtop.com/local/2022/09/as-data-centers-proliferate-neighbors-knock-the-noise/

Data center cooling fan system noise control - low cost + efficiency gains
https://invc.com/noise-control/data-center-noise-attenuation/

Science of data center noise | VERIFY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JflFFqbZ1X8

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Michael Thomas]

On 6/23/23 4:01 PM, Delong.com via NANOG wrote:
The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making 
the entire region less stable and proposed construction of new 
high-voltage tower corridors for data centers.

Yeah, I can kind of understand those, but as long as the grid is properly 
planned, it really shouldn’t have a destabilizing effect. In fact, many 
datacenter in California do CoGen and end up providing additional grid 
stability.


Uh, ::cough:: PGE ::cough::

I so wanted to schadenfreude so bad with Texas and their shitty grid, 
but then remembered where I live.


Mike