RE: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement ConcerningComcast'sActions
Hi,
I am all up for any service that is compelling enough to inspire end user to
spend their $s to use it. Where I get super pissy is when then content
provider blame us for impairing their product innovation and how the network
operators are the bad guys and should spend the money to give the service away
for free when they launch it because they cant / wont push the value
proposition.
I do wonder who and why we are collectively upgrading our networks. At the end
of the day we are in business to make money.
-Original Message-
From: christopher.mor...@gmail.com [mailto:christopher.mor...@gmail.com] On
Behalf Of Christopher Morrow
Sent: 30 November 2010 04:46
To: Ben Butler
Cc: Patrick W. Gilmore; NANOG list
Subject: Re: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement ConcerningComcast'sActions
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:23 PM, Ben Butler wrote:
> Ok, you have a point with SD vs HD which is encoded at 8 rather than 2 on our
> digital terrestrial and satellite broadcasters in the UK.
>
> So why 24mb or 50mb access speeds, what is it actually being used for, I do
> not believe that streamed video is the culprit here with most codecs doing
> about ~700 kbits.
why NOT 24mb or 50mb or 500mb? what applications/innovations/ideas are
being left on the table because folk can't do them in a reasonable
period of time with <2mbps and longer queue times on their home
network? If you could provision, cheaply, more bandwidth to the
end-users in a community (or really several communities) do you think
there would be new applications or new services provided to these
folks?
Video HD or SD is just one application/service... they get lots of
hype today, but tomorrow what things may be possible?
-chris
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Ben Butler
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C2 Business Networking Ltd
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RE: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement Concerning Comcast'sActions
Same hymn sheet, if they pay enough the cost averaging model works again and we
don't have to worry about latency critical or transfer volume. The problem is
that they wont pay for it.
-Original Message-
From: wher...@gmail.com [mailto:wher...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of William Herrin
Sent: 30 November 2010 04:17
To: Ben Butler
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement Concerning Comcast'sActions
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Ben Butler wrote:
> Then consumer broadband came along, the subs went
> down, the headline speeds went up, service delivery
> becomes impossible in the face of the marketing BS
> and here we are.
Hi Ben,
So you're saying: treat it like electrical service. I have a 200 amp
electrical service at my house. But I don't pay for a 200 amp service,
I pay for kilowatt-hours of usage.
There are several problems transplanting that billing model to
Internet service. The first you've already noticed - marketing
activity has rendered it unsalable. But that's not the only problem.
Another problem is that the price of electricity has been very stable
for a very long time, as has the general character of devices which
consume it. Consumers have a gut understanding of the cost of leaving
the light on. But what is a byte? How much to load that web page?
Watch that movie? And doesn't Moore's Law mean that 18 months from now
it should cost half as much? If I can't tell whether or not I'm being
ripped off, I'm probably being ripped off.
A third problem is the whole regulated monopoly thing. The electric
company had to be slapped down hard by the government to make its
billing process fair. Anything we can do to avoid that fate is money
in the bank, even if it means allowing the occasional customer to get
more than he paid for.
So if we can't bill you by usage, and at a consumer level we can't,
then we have to find another way. Statistics and prayer isn't working
out as well as we'd hoped so we're looking at double-billing schemes.
Bad plan!
Regards,
Bill Herrin
--
William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us
3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
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C2 Business Networking Ltd
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RE: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement ConcerningComcast'sActions
Ok, you have a point with SD vs HD which is encoded at 8 rather than 2 on our
digital terrestrial and satellite broadcasters in the UK.
So why 24mb or 50mb access speeds, what is it actually being used for, I do not
believe that streamed video is the culprit here with most codecs doing about
~700 kbits.
Part of the problem is the content providers do not encode properly, we have
seen this all along with images on webs sties as access speeds have increased.
There is no penalty on the content provider for lazy programming, cpu cycles or
codec licensing to stop them making the access network carry larger streams
than nessacery.
And before we get too much into HD vs Codecs vs 720P vs 1080p vs "true HD"
marketing BS, I capture out of my camera's HDMI port at 3Gbit/s and I am not
running 4:4:4 color. So what is HD and what it the allowable compression for
it still to be considered as such.
-Original Message-
From: Patrick W. Gilmore [mailto:patr...@ianai.net]
Sent: 30 November 2010 04:04
To: NANOG list
Subject: Re: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement ConcerningComcast'sActions
On Nov 29, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Ben Butler wrote:
> In the Uk, we used to have 2MB DSL, and business providers like myself would
> happily provide it on the basis of CBR 2Mbit and we did'nt care what you did
> with it. 2Mbit is more than enough for streaming and I challenge anyone
> otherwise.
I say otherwise.
So do many customers who want 720 or 1080 lines on their TV.
So do many content providers who want to satisfy their customers.
But it is your network, your rules. If your customers do not want "HD
quality", and are happy with 1.5 Mbps streams per DSL line, that's between you
& your customers. Of course, if your customers want more, that's between your
customers and your competitors
--
TTFN,
patrick
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RE: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement Concerning Comcast'sActions
In the Uk, we used to have 2MB DSL, and business providers like myself would
happily provide it on the basis of CBR 2Mbit and we did'nt care what you did
with it. 2Mbit is more than enough for streaming and I challenge anyone
otherwise.
Then consumer broadband came along, the subs went down, the headline speeds
went up, service delivery becomes impossible in the face of the marketing BS
and here we are.
If the subs pay £30 to £45 rather than £10 to £15 then this entire issue
disappears. I don't give a frig what my hosted clients do or my access clients
do, they can run at line rate, I want then to get every paid for bit in the
best fashion it can be delivered. The problem is the access industry has
allowed their sales and marketing people to put them in a point of no return.
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Ben Butler
Director Tel: 0333 666 3332
Fax: 0333 666 3331
C2 Business Networking Ltd
The Paddock, London Road, Nantwich, Cheshire, CW5 7JL
http://www.c2internet.net/
Part of the Atlas Business Group of Companies plc
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RE: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement Concerning Comcast'sActions
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Ben Butler
Director Tel: 0333 666 3332
Fax: 0333 666 3331
C2 Business Networking Ltd
The Paddock, London Road, Nantwich, Cheshire, CW5 7JL
http://www.c2internet.net/
Part of the Atlas Business Group of Companies plc
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RE: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement Concerning Comcast'sActions
And what happens when the content providers have multicast to the BGP edge and
the access provider has to carry it from there on in their network.
This is solely about money and the brokenness of the current ISP / access /
carrier / content provider commercial model. This has been coming for years
once access speed (long since) got upto a sufficient speed to sustain 1 to 2
Mbit and they sorted out their copyright issues on the content.
Now all the access providers who spoke big in marketing and delivered little in
service are being exposed and trying to fudge the issue. This has been coming
for at least five years with video, and the next one is SIP with call revenues.
Show me the money!
-Original Message-
From: Steven Fischer [mailto:sfischer1...@gmail.com]
Sent: 30 November 2010 02:03
To: Marshall Eubanks
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement Concerning Comcast'sActions
Trying to follow this - so, if I have followed it correctly, L3 hosts
high-bandwitdh services (namely NetFlix) to which an abundance of Comcast
users subscribe? And Comcast is crying foul, and claiming a portion of L3's
revenue is rightfully theirs, for being "last mile" to a significant portion
of the CDN/NetFlix customer base? Does L3 even service a home user market,
in the same vein as Comcast or Verizon?
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
>
> On Nov 29, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Phil Bedard wrote:
>
> > Is L3 hosting content for Netflix?
>
> You bet.
>
>
> http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2010/11/11/level-3-signs-deal-to-be-a-primary-netflix-cdn-shares-rally/
>
> * NOVEMBER 11, 2010, 9:13 AM ET
>
> Level 3 Signs Deal To Be A Primary Netflix CDN; Shares Rally
>
> Regards
> Marshall
>
> > Netflix has become a large source of
> > traffic going to end users. L3 likely could have held out on this one if
> > the content they were hosting is valuable enough to Comcast's customers,
> > but maybe what Comcast was asking for wasn't much in the grand scheme of
> > things.
> >
> > Obviously someone has to pay for the access infrastructure and Comcast
> > would much rather get the content provider to pay for it versus passing
> it
> > along to their customers. I think they probably just took a stab and L3
> > complied.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/29/10 5:28 PM, "Patrick W. Gilmore" wrote:
> >
> >> <
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/level-3-communications-issues-statement-
> >> concerning-comcasts-actions-2010-11-29?reflink=MW_news_stmp>
> >>
> >> I understand that politics is off-topic, but this policy affects
> >> operational aspects of the 'Net.
> >>
> >> Just to be clear, L3 is saying content providers should not have to pay
> >> to deliver content to broadband providers who have their own product
> >> which has content as well. I am certain all the content providers on
> >> this list are happy to hear L3's change of heart and will be applying
> for
> >> settlement free peering tomorrow. (L3 wouldn't want other providers to
> >> claim the Vyvx or CDN or other content services provided by L3 are
> >> competing and L3 is putting up a "toll booth" on the Internet, would
> >> they?)
> >>
> >> --
> >> TTFN,
> >> patrick
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Ben Butler
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C2 Business Networking Ltd
The Paddock, London Road, Nantwich, Cheshire, CW5 7JL
http://www.c2internet.net/
RE: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement Concerning Comcast'sActions
Hi,
This is nothing to do with technology, it never is, it is about cap-ex, money,
sales, market share, dominance, internal products, hurting the competition.
While I have delusions about technical people putting agenda aside to work in a
co-ordinate fashion on IPv6 I have no such delusions the second a commercial
interest enters the fray.
Cogent made Level3 bend over years ago, it will be interesting to see if
Comcast can do the same or if Level3 will grow a pair and refuse to be bullied
despite the commercial loss.
Ben
-Original Message-
From: Seth Mattinen [mailto:se...@rollernet.us]
Sent: 30 November 2010 01:47
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Level 3 Communications Issues Statement Concerning Comcast'sActions
On 11/29/10 3:59 PM, Leo Bicknell wrote:
>
> But this isn't a technology problem, or a ratio problem.
Comcast's blog specifically mentions unbalanced ratios as an issue.
~Seth
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Ben Butler
Director Tel: 0333 666 3332
Fax: 0333 666 3331
C2 Business Networking Ltd
The Paddock, London Road, Nantwich, Cheshire, CW5 7JL
http://www.c2internet.net/
Part of the Atlas Business Group of Companies plc
Registered in England: 07102986 Registered Address: Datum House, Electra Way,
Crewe CW1 6ZF Vat Registration No: 712 9503 48
This message is confidential and intended for the use only of the person to
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RE: Only 5x IPv4 /8 remaining at IANA
" see a potential result of huge swathes of v4 resources reusable by these
companies, probably dwarfing the reclaimable resources most any other provider
without a similar customer profile will have."
See this is at the hub of it as well, is it a reusable resource, or is it an
obsolete one? Should it be getting resused for multi-homeing or content
providers, or should it be retired by the ISP that has migrated their subs onto
v6?
I think if we continue with a mind set that v4 is a previous resource and once
I have freed it up by moving to v6 I must hang onto it and of course if I have
got some free I best deploy it again for a new customer - this seems completely
circular to me. I think the question is:
1> Are we attempting to migrate from IPv4 to IPv6 and end up at a place
ultimately where IPv4 is fully intended to be retired.
Or
2> Are we simply intending to extend the address space with IPv6 and continue
to pretty much carry on business as normal with existing IPv4 deployments in
any meaningly foreseeable time frame and run a dual stack network. Further
more that it is ok to reutilize any free up IPv4 space along the way as we are
never planning on retiring it anyway.
I personally think it should be the first of those, but my opinion doesn't
really count for squat. Ultimately I would rather we be clear about what we
are wishing / aspiring / trying to achieve and then set about achieving it
collectively. If the collective view is that it is not a migration but a
co-existence that we are aiming for then ok, lets stop pretending otherwise, if
however the collective direction is migration then can we please collectively
do our best to facilitate and encourage the migration. As opposed to having
various tactics to drag out the migration as long as possible as some think
that if they drag their feet in perpetuity that the v4 to v6 bridging magic
will become the duty of the service provider to make it work for content
providers and subscribers that don't want to update CPE routers or rewrite code
where nessacery.
If we, as a community of operators are going to get on and deploy IPv6 and we
agree it's a migration the lets get doing and set some targets dates / BCP for
when it is reasonably expected that net/sys admins will have completed the
rollout and by whatever contractual or commercial / technical means migrated
their customers. If, however, we as a community don't want migration but
cohabitation then lets do that. Which one do we ultimately want?
Ben
-Original Message-
From: Joe Maimon [mailto:jmai...@ttec.com]
Sent: 22 October 2010 14:25
To: Matthew Petach
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: Only 5x IPv4 /8 remaining at IANA
--
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Ben Butler
Director Tel: 0333 666 3332
Fax: 0333 666 3331
C2 Business Networking Ltd
The Paddock, London Road, Nantwich, Cheshire, CW5 7JL
http://www.c2internet.net/
Part of the Atlas Business Group of Companies plc
Registered in England: 07102986 Registered Address: Datum House, Electra Way,
Crewe CW1 6ZF Vat Registration No: 712 9503 48
This message is confidential and intended for the use only of the person to
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are in the office.Calls to and from any of the Atlas Business Group of
Companies may be recorded for the purposes of training, monitoring of quality
and customer services.
RE: Only 5x IPv4 /8 remaining at IANA
Hi, What is the consequence of not managing to transition the v4 network and having to maintain it indefinitely. I think if the cost / limitations that this may place on things is great enough then the "how" will reveal itself with the interested parties. Is there a downside to being stuck with both address spaces rather than just 6, idk, you tell me, but there seems to be from what I can tell. I am not suggesting any form of timeframe in the exact number of years / decades, just that a timeframe should exist where after a certain date - whatever that is - we can say ok, now we are turning off v4. In the absence of any form of timeframe what is the operational benefit of any existing v4 user migrating to v6 if the service provider is going to make magic happen that enables them to talk to v6 only host via some mysterious bridging box. I can see none, which tells me they are not going to bother spending there time and money renumbering and deploying v6 - ever! There needs to be a technical, commercial or operational reason for them to want to go through the change. Ben -Original Message- From: Marshall Eubanks [mailto:t...@americafree.tv] Sent: 21 October 2010 18:09 To: Ben Butler Cc: 'Dan White'; NANOG Subject: Re: Only 5x IPv4 /8 remaining at IANA On Oct 21, 2010, at 12:34 PM, Ben Butler wrote: > Hi, > > I can live with running dual stack for a number of years as long as IPv4 has > a turn off date, much like analogue TV services, thus putting onus of And how would you propose to achieve that ? Regards Marshall > responsibility onto the customer to also have a vested interest in migrating > from v4 to v6. If there is no end data - then all the service providers are > going to get stuck running dual stack and providing 4to6 and 6to4 gateways to > bridge traffic to the pool of established v4 only customers. Presumably the > evil that is NAT will have to be run on these gateways meaning we have to > endure yet more decades of many applications being undeployable for practical > purposes as stun cant fix everything in the mish mash of different NAT > implementations. > > The problem is there is no commercial incentive for the v4 customer to want > to move to v6 and there is no way for the ISP to force them to without > loosing the customer. However, if the RIRs or IANA turned around and said as > of date we are revoking all ipv4 allocations. Then we might be able to > transition to a v6 only network in some decent timeframe without ending up > going down the road of a broken dual level 4/6 half way in between broken > internet for the next 25 years. > > You either cross the bridge and get to the other side, or you tell all the > people waiting to cross they are too late and tough luck but we have run out > and you cant join the party, but the last thing we want to do is get half way > across the bridge and need to straddle both sides of the river. > > My 2c. > > Ben > > -----Original Message- > From: Dan White [mailto:dwh...@olp.net] > Sent: 21 October 2010 16:30 > To: Ben Butler > Cc: 'Patrick Giagnocavo'; Owen DeLong; NANOG > Subject: Re: Only 5x IPv4 /8 remaining at IANA > > On 21/10/10 16:07 +0100, Ben Butler wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Showing my ignorance here, but this is one of the things I have wondered, >> given that we run both v4 and v6 for a period of time on the Internet, >> presumably at one time or another a particular resource may only be able >> in v4 land, then v4 and v6, then finally v6 only. >> >> I have never been particularly clear how an end network that exists only >> in v4 or v6 address space is able to access a resource that only exists in >> the other. Is can sort of see some freaking huge NAT box type thing that >> summarizes v6 in a v4 address scope or contains the v4 address range at >> some point inside the v6 address space - but how can a v4 host get to a >> hot in v6 world that sits outside this without going through some form of >> proxy / nat gateway between the two. >> >> Or are the two simply not inter-communicable? > > I think that's the $64K question. Do you wait to roll out v6 until you > start seeing v6-only hosts start popping up? From an accounting and cost > recovery stand point, that probably makes sense in some environments. > > However, consider the fact that there will be v6 only hosts popping up > after IANA/RIR/ISP exhaustion. There will be new entrants in the public > internet space that cannot obtain v4 addresses and will be reachable via v6 > only. That date is starting to become a bit more predictable too. Those v6 > only sites won't be Google or Yahoo, but they will be entrepreneurs with > good ideas
RE: Only 5x IPv4 /8 remaining at IANA
Hi,
I can live with running dual stack for a number of years as long as IPv4 has a
turn off date, much like analogue TV services, thus putting onus of
responsibility onto the customer to also have a vested interest in migrating
from v4 to v6. If there is no end data - then all the service providers are
going to get stuck running dual stack and providing 4to6 and 6to4 gateways to
bridge traffic to the pool of established v4 only customers. Presumably the
evil that is NAT will have to be run on these gateways meaning we have to
endure yet more decades of many applications being undeployable for practical
purposes as stun cant fix everything in the mish mash of different NAT
implementations.
The problem is there is no commercial incentive for the v4 customer to want to
move to v6 and there is no way for the ISP to force them to without loosing the
customer. However, if the RIRs or IANA turned around and said as of date
we are revoking all ipv4 allocations. Then we might be able to transition to a
v6 only network in some decent timeframe without ending up going down the road
of a broken dual level 4/6 half way in between broken internet for the next 25
years.
You either cross the bridge and get to the other side, or you tell all the
people waiting to cross they are too late and tough luck but we have run out
and you cant join the party, but the last thing we want to do is get half way
across the bridge and need to straddle both sides of the river.
My 2c.
Ben
-Original Message-
From: Dan White [mailto:dwh...@olp.net]
Sent: 21 October 2010 16:30
To: Ben Butler
Cc: 'Patrick Giagnocavo'; Owen DeLong; NANOG
Subject: Re: Only 5x IPv4 /8 remaining at IANA
On 21/10/10 16:07 +0100, Ben Butler wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Showing my ignorance here, but this is one of the things I have wondered,
>given that we run both v4 and v6 for a period of time on the Internet,
>presumably at one time or another a particular resource may only be able
>in v4 land, then v4 and v6, then finally v6 only.
>
>I have never been particularly clear how an end network that exists only
>in v4 or v6 address space is able to access a resource that only exists in
>the other. Is can sort of see some freaking huge NAT box type thing that
>summarizes v6 in a v4 address scope or contains the v4 address range at
>some point inside the v6 address space - but how can a v4 host get to a
>hot in v6 world that sits outside this without going through some form of
>proxy / nat gateway between the two.
>
>Or are the two simply not inter-communicable?
I think that's the $64K question. Do you wait to roll out v6 until you
start seeing v6-only hosts start popping up? From an accounting and cost
recovery stand point, that probably makes sense in some environments.
However, consider the fact that there will be v6 only hosts popping up
after IANA/RIR/ISP exhaustion. There will be new entrants in the public
internet space that cannot obtain v4 addresses and will be reachable via v6
only. That date is starting to become a bit more predictable too. Those v6
only sites won't be Google or Yahoo, but they will be entrepreneurs with
good ideas and new services that your customers will be asking to get
access to.
We're pursuing a dual stacking model today because we anticipate that
the dual-stacking process itself will take a while to deploy, and we want
to anticipate customer demand for access to v6 only sites. We could hold
off on that deployment, and then spend money on work at the moment of
truth, but that approach is not very appealing to us.
--
Dan White
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Ben Butler
Director Tel: 0333 666 3332
Fax: 0333 666 3331
C2 Business Networking Ltd
The Paddock, London Road, Nantwich, Cheshire, CW5 7JL
http://www.c2internet.net/
Part of the Atlas Business Group of Companies plc
Registered in England: 07102986 Registered Address: Datum House, Electra Way,
Crewe CW1 6ZF Vat Registration No: 712
RE: Only 5x IPv4 /8 remaining at IANA
Hi,
Showing my ignorance here, but this is one of the things I have wondered, given
that we run both v4 and v6 for a period of time on the Internet, presumably at
one time or another a particular resource may only be able in v4 land, then v4
and v6, then finally v6 only.
I have never been particularly clear how an end network that exists only in v4
or v6 address space is able to access a resource that only exists in the other.
Is can sort of see some freaking huge NAT box type thing that summarizes v6 in
a v4 address scope or contains the v4 address range at some point inside the v6
address space - but how can a v4 host get to a hot in v6 world that sits
outside this without going through some form of proxy / nat gateway between the
two.
Or are the two simply not inter-communicable?
Ben
-Original Message-
From: Patrick Giagnocavo [mailto:patr...@zill.net]
Sent: 21 October 2010 15:59
To: Owen DeLong; NANOG
Subject: Re: Only 5x IPv4 /8 remaining at IANA
On 10/21/2010 4:28 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> Actually for those of my clients in one location, it served as an
>> impetus to extend a contract with Level3 for another 3 years - with
>> their existing allocation of a /24 of IPv4 addresses included.
>
> All well and good until some of their customers are on IPv6...
> Then what?
I'm sorry, can you expand on exactly what you mean by this?
Are IPv6 connected machines unable to access IPv4 addresses?
Or is this more IPV6 fanboi-ism?
--Patrick
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Ben Butler
Director Tel: 0333 666 3332
Fax: 0333 666 3331
C2 Business Networking Ltd
The Paddock, London Road, Nantwich, Cheshire, CW5 7JL
http://www.c2internet.net/
Part of the Atlas Business Group of Companies plc
Registered in England: 07102986 Registered Address: Datum House, Electra Way,
Crewe CW1 6ZF Vat Registration No: 712 9503 48
This message is confidential and intended for the use only of the person to
whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient you are strictly
prohibited from reading, disseminating, copying, printing, re-transmitting or
using this message or its contents in any way. Opinions, conclusions and other
information expressed in this message are not given or authorised by the
Company unless otherwise indicated by an authorised representative independent
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interception or amendment to any e-mail or the consequences thereof.Emails
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are in the office.Calls to and from any of the Atlas Business Group of
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RE: Definitive Guide to IPv6 adoption
Hi,
Maybe we should reserve the first couple of bits to serve as a planet
identifier, so that once we have colonized the heavens Star Trek Federation
style we can route to all of those Billions of life forms.
Routing convergence times shouldn’t be too much of an issue even with light
version 1 (while we wait for FTL transport mechanisms) as I suspect there wont
be too many interplanetary transit providers to have worry about in the routing
mesh.
But again in all seriousness - surely this is a problem for the distant future
(sadly and Stephen Hawking would agree about our species' need for colonization
to ensure survival) and in the meantime we just get on as quickly as possible
with getting IPv6 rolled out and adhering to standards of how we do it so we
don't create yet another inconsistent mess with everyone following different
"standard" best practices.
Ben
-Original Message-----
From: Ben Butler [mailto:ben.but...@c2internet.net]
Sent: 19 October 2010 12:26
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Definitive Guide to IPv6 adoption
Hi,
Another way of looking at it would be what would the world population need to
be in order to exhaust all of the space v6 based on /48s /56s or /64s per head
/ household - and is this population number ever going to happen in what time
conceivable time frame.
Another interesting calculation would be to divide the land mass area by that
population figure - let alone the habital area.
2 to 48 = 281,474,976,710,658 or 280K Billion separate /48s assignments.
(Current world population 6.7 Billion forecast 14 Billion in 2100)
World Landmass (Total All Areas): 148.94 million sq km
So Each Person at the point of IPv6 exhaustion will have 0.53 sq meters to
stand on while using all their IPv6 devices.
I think it is safe to say that the world will be facing other more significant
problems long long long before we get anywhere near having to worry about
running out of IPv6 space because we are assigning each individual a /48.
There are surely technical benefits from a routing perspective if all the end
user assignments are the same size - therefore should the technical
considerations here not override any argument about conservation of space
seeing as the above hopefully proves the fallacy of needing to conserve IPv6
address space
Ben
-Original Message-
From: Robert E. Seastrom [mailto:r...@seastrom.com]
Sent: 19 October 2010 11:53
To: George Bonser
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Definitive Guide to IPv6 adoption
"George Bonser" writes:
>> You are to be commended for your leadership in conserving space. Our
>> children will surely be grateful that thanks to your efforts they have
>> 99.9% of IPv6 space left to work with rather than the paltry
>> 99.9975% that might have been their inheritance were it not for your
>> efforts. Bravo!
>
> I have a feeling that IP addresses will now be used in ways that people
> have not envisioned them being used before. Given a surplus of any
> resource, people find creative ways of using it.
Which just reinforces the argument that we ought to give people /48s
rather than /56es, /60s, or /64s even though those with a failure of
imagination may not be able to figure out a reason anyone would need
that much space.
-r
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Ben Butler
Director Tel: 0333 666 3332
Fax: 0333 666 3331
C2 Business Networking Ltd
The Paddock, London Road, Nantwich, Cheshire, CW5 7JL
http://www.c2internet.net/
Part of the Atlas Business Group of Companies plc
Registered in England: 07102986 Registered Address: Datum House, Electra Way,
Crewe CW1 6ZF Vat Registration No: 712 9503 48
This message is confidential and intended for the use only of the person to
whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient you are strictly
prohibited from reading, disseminating, copying, printing, re-transmitting or
using this message or its contents in any way. Opinions, concl
RE: Definitive Guide to IPv6 adoption
Hi,
Another way of looking at it would be what would the world population need to
be in order to exhaust all of the space v6 based on /48s /56s or /64s per head
/ household - and is this population number ever going to happen in what time
conceivable time frame.
Another interesting calculation would be to divide the land mass area by that
population figure - let alone the habital area.
2 to 48 = 281,474,976,710,658 or 280K Billion separate /48s assignments.
(Current world population 6.7 Billion forecast 14 Billion in 2100)
World Landmass (Total All Areas): 148.94 million sq km
So Each Person at the point of IPv6 exhaustion will have 0.53 sq meters to
stand on while using all their IPv6 devices.
I think it is safe to say that the world will be facing other more significant
problems long long long before we get anywhere near having to worry about
running out of IPv6 space because we are assigning each individual a /48.
There are surely technical benefits from a routing perspective if all the end
user assignments are the same size - therefore should the technical
considerations here not override any argument about conservation of space
seeing as the above hopefully proves the fallacy of needing to conserve IPv6
address space
Ben
-Original Message-
From: Robert E. Seastrom [mailto:r...@seastrom.com]
Sent: 19 October 2010 11:53
To: George Bonser
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Definitive Guide to IPv6 adoption
"George Bonser" writes:
>> You are to be commended for your leadership in conserving space. Our
>> children will surely be grateful that thanks to your efforts they have
>> 99.9% of IPv6 space left to work with rather than the paltry
>> 99.9975% that might have been their inheritance were it not for your
>> efforts. Bravo!
>
> I have a feeling that IP addresses will now be used in ways that people
> have not envisioned them being used before. Given a surplus of any
> resource, people find creative ways of using it.
Which just reinforces the argument that we ought to give people /48s
rather than /56es, /60s, or /64s even though those with a failure of
imagination may not be able to figure out a reason anyone would need
that much space.
-r
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Ben Butler
Director Tel: 0333 666 3332
Fax: 0333 666 3331
C2 Business Networking Ltd
The Paddock, London Road, Nantwich, Cheshire, CW5 7JL
http://www.c2internet.net/
Part of the Atlas Business Group of Companies plc
Registered in England: 07102986 Registered Address: Datum House, Electra Way,
Crewe CW1 6ZF Vat Registration No: 712 9503 48
This message is confidential and intended for the use only of the person to
whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient you are strictly
prohibited from reading, disseminating, copying, printing, re-transmitting or
using this message or its contents in any way. Opinions, conclusions and other
information expressed in this message are not given or authorised by the
Company unless otherwise indicated by an authorised representative independent
of this message. The Company does not accept liability for any data corruption,
interception or amendment to any e-mail or the consequences thereof.Emails
addressed to individuals may not necessarily be read by that person unless they
are in the office.Calls to and from any of the Atlas Business Group of
Companies may be recorded for the purposes of training, monitoring of quality
and customer services.
RE: Splitting ARIN assignment
Hi, I do appreciate real life is often more complex than high flying ideals. But aggregation and general good practice would mean in an ideal world you would invest in the internal infrastructure to connect your data centres together with a network and run an IGP+iBGP plus advertise the /21 eBGP at both sites to upstreams. It could be argued that the cost of building the network to run your AS is part and parcel of the expense of opening new datacenter - rather than this ever increasing route table growth. Plus if you de-aggregate as intended you can not announce a covering route for the /21 due to no internal connectivity and if this puts the /22 under the minimum allocation size for the RIR block your IP space comes from then don't be surprised when it gets filtered out and people end up having to accept no routing to your network at all or, sum optimal via a default. But life is rarely as simple as ideals. My 2e Ben -Original Message- From: Scott Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 22 May 2008 17:49 To: 'James Kelty'; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Splitting ARIN assignment As long as your upstreams/partners are cool with that, there is no related designation between how addresses are allocated versus how they are announced. In other words, TECHNICALLY you could advertise a whole bunch of /30's You just run the risk of being filtered and/or ridiculed along the way. :) But splitting the /22's from the same announcing AS shouldn't cause any problems as long as you design your connectivity ok. Scott -Original Message- From: James Kelty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 12:39 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Splitting ARIN assignment Hey all, I'm looking for an opinion from the group. I have an ARIN /21 assignment and a new requirement for a second data center. Rather than ask for another assignment, I would like to advertise one /22 from one location and the other /22 from the second location both with the same asn. My apps will work that way, so I don't have an issue internally, but I'm looking for a broader base opinion on that. Thanks a lot! -James
