RE: Speed Test Results
Re: A New TransAtlantic Cable System
Hi All. It appears we're discussing theoretical limits of silica-based glass here. The Press Release assertion talks about what a trader might experience. Hm. I would ask Rob Beck to clarify this point and inform whether the stated objective in the release accounts for the many o-e and e-o conversions on the overland part of the end-to-end trader connection, including the handoffs that occur in the NY and London metros. I know that terrestrially, i.e., here in the US, some brokerage firms and large banks (is there any longer a distinction between those two today?:) have used their clout to secure links that are virtually entirely optical in nature on routes that are under a thousand miles, but this is not an option on a submarine system that's intrinsically populated with electronics, never mind the tail sections that assume multiple service providers getting into the act. Rob? Anyone? FAC --- valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: From: valdis.kletni...@vt.edu To: Heath Jones Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: A New TransAtlantic Cable System Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 10:08:50 -0400 On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:01:25 BST, Heath Jones said: > > http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Hibernia-Atlantic-to-bw-3184701710.html ?x=0&.v=1 > Sales spam - but still - very close to minimum possible latency! > 3471 miles @ 186,282 miles/s * 1.5 in glass * 2 round trip = 55.9ms. My first thought is that they've found a way to cheat on the 1.5. If you can make it work at 1.4, you get down to 52.2ms - but get it *too* low and all your photons leak out the sides. Hmm.. Unless you have a magic core that runs at 1.1 and a *cladding* that's up around 2.0?
Re: Looking for Fiber Plant Management software
CableProject USA offers a free trial and a YT demo video. I can't vouch for it, never having witnessed it in operation personally, but it looks interesting. [1]http://www.cableprojectusa.com/ Cable Management Software runs the full gamut, from simplistic to near-ERP in scope, while others (e.g., VPI) also perform autoconfiguration and coordinated, parametric link designs for specific types of hardware (WDM, Switches/Routers, ROADMs, etc.). One can spend anywhere from free to $29.99 to tens of thousands of dollars, so decide carefully what you need, know specifically what you're looking for, and most of all, caveat emptor. --- franc...@menards.ca wrote: From: Francois Menard To: Jim Devane Cc: Jason Lixfeld , "nanog@nanog.org" Subject: Re: Looking for Fiber Plant Management software Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:53:04 -0400 We use Fiberworks from Enghouse. Its built atop ArcObjects and all data is stored in an ARCGIS geodatabase, providing good flexibility to get the data brought up on ArcGIS Server (Web) for web-based editing. The good thing about this system is that it can also be used for design of FTTH as well, and makes it possible to produce for-construction as well as as-built drawings (with cut sheets & etc.) http://www.enghouse.com/amd/products/fiberworks.html Our sister company (Xit telecom) which does OSP engineering/consulting/GIS can help implement this system. Regards, -=Francois=- -- Francois D. Menard Director of technology Xittel telecommunications inc. 1350 Royale #800 Trois-Rivieres, QC, G9A 4J4 Canada Tel: +1 819 601-6633 Fax: +1 819 374-0395 fmen...@xittel.net On 2010-08-27, at 5:31 PM, Jim Devane wrote: > OSP Insight. Pricey but an excellent tool for OSP documentation. > > > -Original Message- > From: khatfi...@socllc.net [mailto:khatfi...@socllc.net] > Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:24 PM > To: Jason Lixfeld; Jeff Saxe > Cc: nanog@nanog.org > Subject: Re: Looking for Fiber Plant Management software > > Most of the ones I have seen (2 out of 3) were inhouse/home-grown solutions. > > I believe the other was provided by SA (Scientific Atlanta). I tried to do a quick search on it and it appears that product may now be provided by Cisco in partnership with SA. > > Best of luck > -Original Message- > From: Jason Lixfeld > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:13:35 > To: Jeff Saxe > Cc: > Subject: Re: Looking for Fiber Plant Management software > > I've got a client who uses AutoCAD. They use it exclusively and have a pretty big fibre network for someone who's not an ILEC, so I guess it works fairly well. > > On 2010-08-27, at 11:39 AM, Jeff Saxe wrote: > >> Good morning, NANOGers. My colleague at work wonders if anyone has suggestions for software to database all our fiber plant that we're constructing. We started out with paper, then Excel spreadsheets in a folder and on paper in a book, but clearly as our plant grows and we do more splicing this is not going to scale. We have started a MySQL database with a few tables, but wonder if someone has already invented this wheel. >> >> What do the "big boys" use? Homegrown solutions developed in-house and jealously guarded? Something standard? Expensive or cheap? Free open-source? He'd like to see... >> >> outside plan facilities: cables, fibers, splice points, poles; copper and fiber, preferably, but fiber is more important >> "circuit" or "DLR" that knows what elements are involved in a circuit >> GIS integration so that cables can be drawn on a map automagically >> low cost, of course >> >> Thanks in advance, everyone. >> >> -- Jeff Saxe, Network Engineer >> Blue Ridge InternetWorks, Charlottesville, VA >> 434-817-0707 ext. 2024 / js...@briworks.com >> >> >> >> > > > References 1. http://www.cableprojectusa.com/
Re: Recycling old cabling?
All of the larger telcos and power utilities have been 're-smelting' copper for decades. Verizon (nee NY Telephone) had a copper smelting plant on Staten Island at one time that recycled all of the used cross-connect wire and cables removed from underground and poles. Telco main distribution frame personnel were, and very likely still are, instructed to use "copper-scrap" bags for depositing small bits and pieces of copper wiring collected at cleanup time at the end of work shifts. Many years ago, copper, for this reason, was one of the three "C"'s that no one would mess with. Copper and Cash were two.I'll leave the third one to the reader's imagination. This subject is interesting because it's one of the cost-justifiers in business models that seek to re-engineer large office buildings and other copper-intensive venues where the objective is to replace all copper wiring with hybrid fiber-wireless alternatives. While reclamation through salvage is only a by-product of this movement, it is nonetheless one that is cash intensive, so it cannot be overlooked. Not only is the copper data cabling removed (Cat3/5e/6, in this case), but also potentially tons of power cables and racks supporting sometimes hundreds of riser telecom/LAN closets, where there are usually anywhere from two to four closets per floor, depending on the size of the floor plate, in a forty- or sixty-story building, say. Every copper penny helps these days. --- strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote: From: "Justin M. Streiner" To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Recycling old cabling? Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Just out of curiosity, is anyone here recycling old cabling and plant infrastructure for their raw materials, or engaging a recycler to handle those materials? Where I work, there is almost always a renovation project going on. This provides opportunities to rip out Cat3/Cat5/long-abandoned thicknet/thinnet/FDDI-grade fiber/etc, which we normally do. Most of the time that old cabling ends up in the dumpster, but I'm wondering if anyone is recycling it, either by their choice, or as the result of company policy or relevant laws in your area? Cat3/Cat5 can be broken down to raw materials with some effort, but I haven't seen many recyclers with an economically viable process for doing it. Coax is a bit tougher, but not impossible (same questions about economic viability still apply). Fiber can be tough, expecially if you're dealing with something like 20+ year old gel-buffered cable where the has long-since dried out. I'd be interested to hear other peoples' experiences along these lines. jms
Re: off-topic: historical query concerning the Internet bubble
re: Capacity " as measured by OC12-miles, doubles every four months..." Now that's a fascinating form of metric in itself. Distance * bit-rate equals capacity? What happened to the 'traffic' component? Likewise, what does this say regarding the various thresholds for refreshing bandwidth that individual operators have set as defaults, i.e., 20%, or 50%, or even 90%, before pulling the trigger and lighting up the next OC 'n'? Some providers tweaked 'n tuned their networks until the cows came home, others threw bandwidth 'lavishly' at the first inkling of the next plateau being reached. Even full disclosure by all Tier Ones concerning the number of OC-12 ports they were using, under these conditions, couldn't give an accurate picture of actual traffic levels being supported, IMO. --- odly...@umn.edu wrote: From: odly...@umn.edu (Andrew Odlyzko) To: ra...@psg.com Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: off-topic: historical query concerning the Internet bubble Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 08:30:44 -0500 Fascinating. Memories may be plastic (something that has been established scientifically), or else we may have yet another inconsistency to add to the pile of others. Is there any documentation about the "doubling every nine months"? I have never seen that particular claim emanating from anyone involved with WorldCom/UUNet. On the other hand, existing record shows (among others): 1. U.S. Department of Commerce white paper from April 1998, http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/ecommerce/EDEreprt.pdf on p. 8 declares that "UUNET, one of the largest Internet backbone providers, estimates that Internet traffic doubles every 100 days," with a reference to an Inktomi white paper that attributes this claim to Mike O'Dell. The Inktomi report is no longer on the Web, but I can provide a copy to anyone interested. 2. The transcript of the May 2000 presentation by O'Dell at a Stanford conference clearly has him saying that the capacity of the UUNet network, as measured by OC12-miles, doubles every four months, http://www.dtc.umn.edu/~odlyzko/isources/odell-transcript.txt As is explained in my paper, in the 1998-2000 time frame, essentially all the WorldCom/UUNet claims then seemed to be about capacity, not traffic. 3. The year-end 2000 email from O'Dell to Dave Farber's IP list, http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200011/ms g00058.html has him talking of traffic doubling each year, while capacity grows 8-fold. If some time in that period there was a claim of a "doubling every nine months," too, that would be very interesting. Andrew Randy Bush wrote: > >> my memory is that he said doubling every nine months. > > Mine too. > > mo's too. i asked. > > randy
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
Apologies for the gibberish of my previous message. Here's The URL that never made it to the list that contains the article I referenced and my footer note: [1]http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26408512 --- fr...@fttx.org wrote: From: "Frank A. Coluccio" To: "Michael Thomas" Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:10:37 -0700 re: "what is the state of voip-over-cellular as essentially the last holdout of TDM? Will the new 4G stuff be able to support latencies, etc? Has the work on handovers-over-IP matured enough that it's viable?" One of the biggest hurdles in bringing Ethernet to mobile/cellular apps has been its lack of synchronous capabilities. This is now being overcome in a variety of ways, both IETF-instigated and at IEEE, and through some proprietary solutions where vendors are re-introducing system clocking. See my footer note that addresses this subject at the bottom of [1]this message. --- m...@mtcc.com wrote: From: Michael Thomas To: Steve Meuse Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:33:38 -0700 On 03/26/2010 08:26 AM, Steve Meuse wrote: > Rick Ernst expunged (na...@shreddedmail.com): > >> I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's >> market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building >> new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM >> footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall >> trend or something local. > > You aren't imagining things. In fact, some large national networks have been designed to support solely ethernet. It comes down to cost, as always Speaking of which, what is the state of voip-over-cellular as essentially the last holdout of TDM? Will the new 4G stuff be able to support latencies, etc? Has the work on handovers-over-IP matured enough that it's viable? Mike References 1. http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26408512 References 1. http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26408512
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
re: "what is the state of voip-over-cellular as essentially the last holdout of TDM? Will the new 4G stuff be able to support latencies, etc? Has the work on handovers-over-IP matured enough that it's viable?" One of the biggest hurdles in bringing Ethernet to mobile/cellular apps has been its lack of synchronous capabilities. This is now being overcome in a variety of ways, both IETF-instigated and at IEEE, and through some proprietary solutions where vendors are re-introducing system clocking. See my footer note that addresses this subject at the bottom of [1]this message. --- m...@mtcc.com wrote: From: Michael Thomas To: Steve Meuse Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:33:38 -0700 On 03/26/2010 08:26 AM, Steve Meuse wrote: > Rick Ernst expunged (na...@shreddedmail.com): > >> I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's >> market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building >> new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM >> footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall >> trend or something local. > > You aren't imagining things. In fact, some large national networks have been designed to support solely ethernet. It comes down to cost, as always Speaking of which, what is the state of voip-over-cellular as essentially the last holdout of TDM? Will the new 4G stuff be able to support latencies, etc? Has the work on handovers-over-IP matured enough that it's viable? Mike References 1. http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26408512
Re: RE: Inside plant 10G fiber specs?
re: "The grief caused over the long run by having more installed MMF plant, especially as you try to move to 10G speeds and beyond, is IMHO not worth the relatively small short term cost optimization." A good point, which becomes particularly germane moving forward. According to a TIA presentation I attended today, a 40G link will require eight (8) strands of 8MMF. And the way things look now, a 100Gbps link will require twenty (20) strands of MMF. Neither is likely to reach beyond 100 to 150 meters max. A single pair of SMF will suffice for both and cover eminently greater distances. Until now the tradeoffs have been a no-brainer, favoring MMF. But as the number of strands begin to add bulk and handling issues and the price points continue to fall for SMF at 10G and above, it will become more trying to decide. Incidentally, there's a couple of good pieces in the March 2010 issue of Lightwave Mag on the subject of falling prices of Photonic Integrated Circuits (PICs) at 10G and above, and one on advancements being made in Planar chips as well on pp 6 and 24, respectively,' here: [1]http://online.qmags.com/LW0310/Default.aspx?sessionID=43F4572DBED1C1 526DB2E9CBB&cid=218039&eid=14800#pg1 Frank --- r...@e-gerbil.net wrote: From: Richard A Steenbergen To: Jeff Kell Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: RE: Inside plant 10G fiber specs? Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:39:39 -0500 On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:15:51PM -0400, Jeff Kell wrote: > And a follow-up to my original question... > > I'm reading the Cisco SFP GBIC-SH spec for 50u OM3 and it shows a > rating of 1000m? Really? That's better than the LH rating over the > same fiber (550m)? Hi Jeff, I don't know of any optics with a 1km reach over MMF at either 1G or 10G rates. Over OM3 fiber you can get ~260-300 meters of 10G, over older MMF you can potentially get much less, it depends on the exact signal you're trying to pass. Yes you can get 550 meters with 1G LX over MMF, but the MMF itself is ultimately what is limiting you. I recently did a NANOG presentation on some of this, you may want to take a look at: http://www.nanog.org/meetings/nanog48/presentations/Sunday/RAS_opticaln et_N48.pdf Personally my take on this particular problem is to stop doing MMF runs and standardize on SMF where possible. If you do any amount of shopping at all you can find optics for SMF which are barely any more expensive than optics for MMF, especially if you're only talking about 1GE or 10G SFP+. The grief caused over the long run by having more installed MMF plant, especially as you try to move to 10G speeds and beyond, is IMHO not worth the relatively small short term cost optimization. -- Richard A Steenbergen http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC) References 1. http://online.qmags.com/LW0310/Default.aspx?sessionID=43F4572DBED1C1526DB2E9CBB&cid=218039&eid=14800#pg1
RE: Network Naming Conventions
On-net we use law enforcement agency names, and for those off-net we use the names of reigning mafia families in NFL cities and South American drug cartels. --- madc...@hisna.com wrote: From: "Adcock, Matt [HISNA]" To: "Ravi Pina" , "Randy Bush" Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Network Naming Conventions Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:10:40 -0700 I've used a Jimmy Buffett theme in test labs before. Matt Adcock, Manager 334-481-6629 (w) / 334-312-5393 (m) / madc...@hisna.com 700 Hyundai Blvd. / Montgomery, AL 36105 P The average office worker uses 10,000 sheets of paper = 1.2 trees, per year By not printing this email, you’ve saved paper, ink and millions of trees From: Ravi Pina [mailto:r...@cow.org] Sent: Sat 3/13/2010 3:33 PM To: Randy Bush Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network Naming Conventions On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 04:58:11AM +0900, Randy Bush wrote: > > On my last network I named all the routers after simpsons characters. > > scaled well? Don't forget there were 5 Snowballs... The information in this email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of this message or attachment is strictly prohibited. We have taken precautions to minimize the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise you to carry out your own virus checks on any attachment to this message. We cannot accept liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you believe that you have received this email in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete the email and all of its attachments
Re: Inside plant 10G fiber specs?
The massive deployments of FTTH around the globe (now tens of millions of end points per quarter) have been responsible for driving price points for singlemode optics down considerably, and it's only going to get a lot cheaper over time before bottoming out. Plan to the trajectory, not the history. OM3 & OM4 MMF will provide considerably greater reach than their forebears, but if you're looking to centralize servers and avoid myriad intermediate TRs and LAN rooms due to distance constrains along the way (cascading bottlenecks), then give singlemode a closer look. You may also want to give IEEE 10GE PON (ratified last year) some consideration, or the ITU emerging variant of 10GPON for your desktop and lab areas, fwiw. BR, Frank --- jeff-k...@utc.edu wrote: From: Jeff Kell To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Inside plant 10G fiber specs? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:16:53 -0400 I am working up network specs for a new building, and trying to accomodate a 10G distribution from the start. The safe bet of running singlemode everywhere doesn't quite fit due to cost of the optics and the need for multimode for some other (non-network) devices anyway. We have a legacy 62.5u/MM campus, inside and out. The 100M to 1G transition led to some outside plant singlemode additions due to length restrictions on MM (even with conditioned LH optics), but the inside plant gig was fine with multimode (typically SH optics). 10G appears to break the inside 62.5u/MM fit, with the addition that there is no option of "LH over MM" for the little extra push beyond the SH limit that worked with 1G optics. Cisco's references give 10G SH over 62.5u/MM at 26m or 33m, depending on the "modal bandwidth" of the fiber. At those distances it is of little benefit except some limited vertical risers. 10G over 50u/MM looks better, depending on the "modal bandwidth" of the fiber (66m, 82m, 300m). So, a couple of questions... (1) Do you have a good vendor specification (or sample cables) for multistrand 50u/MM suitable for the 2000Mhz/km (300m) advertised reach? (2) Inter-operability issues with legacy equipment where we have always used 62.5? We have at least two alarm half-duplex loops over 62.5 that will have to "mate" with devices in this building... if I can avoid running both types MM that would be great. (3) Any other considerations or words of advice would be welcomed. Thanks in advance. Jeff
Re: Does Internet Speed Vary by Season?
Hi Fred. I think you are referring, in the case of hierarchical synchronous architectures (SONET/SDH), to the absolute periodicity of the timing coming from clock sources. Frame slips and overwrites can occur when too many ppm lagging or leading are exceeded, as I believe was implied in your post. In contrast, I believe the notions that are being discussed in this thread have more to do with the effects of temperature coefficients of metallic conductors during shifts in outside temperature conditions, and the ensuing changes in the nominal velocity of propagation that accompany those changes, relative to the speed of light. In any case, I have been following this discussion from its beginning with a great amount of interest, finding it a great memory jogger from times misspent in my youth. I started a parallel discussion on my forum, where today I responded to another poster with the following observations, for anyone interested. [1]http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26010089 Frank --- f...@cisco.com wrote: From: Fred Baker To: Dragos Ruiu Cc: nanog@nanog.org, Joe Greco Subject: Re: Does Internet Speed Vary by Season? Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 14:27:07 -0700 On Oct 9, 2009, at 5:38 PM, Dragos Ruiu wrote: > Well, since it's been documented that internet speed / usage varies > with > the weather (it gets faster when it's sunny, slower when it rains) > I'm sure some > seasonal correlation could be found. Could you point to the documentation? I having trouble with language that sounds like one concept and I suspect is in fact another. Take as one example the basic digital signaling hierarchy. The specifications call for a certain rate plus or minus some number of parts per million. If they are within tolerance, the amount that they would speed up or slow down is measured in a pretty small number of bits per second. So I don't think the speed of the links is materially changing. If on the other hand we are discussing the volume of traffic using that available capacity, it is absolutely clear that there are diurnal, weekly, and seasonal variations as well as growth in time. Are we talking about bit rate, which one might expect to be modified by environmental characteristics and is in fact very tightly controlled to prevent that, or traffic volume? References 1. http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26010089
