Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: RTBH and Flowspec Measurements - Stop guessing when the attack will over
Hey Rich! I'm in love with this RFC... It is not an easy one, so I did not understand it completely yet. But It is almost what I was thinking... Does anyone saw any docs about deploying it? Any software that implements it? Em ter., 2 de fev. de 2021 às 15:53, Compton, Rich A < rich.comp...@charter.com> escreveu: > Hi, here is a Flowspec best practices document that I helped write that > will hopefully help folks from shooting themselves in the foot > http://m3aawg.org/flowspec-BP. As you stated, route policies can be > applied to restrict what type of flowspec rules can or can’t be accepted. > For example, only allow a rule from the Flowspec controller if it specifies > a /32 destination IP and is tagged with a particular community, reject all > else. > > Douglas, I think what you are looking for is DOTS: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8811 DOTS has a data channel which allows > the DOTS client and server to communicate telemetry about the attack. The > RFC is pretty new. I don’t think that there are any companies that have > implemented it yet. Hopefully this protocol will be adopted by DDoS > mitigation companies soon. > > > > -Rich Compton > > > > *From: *NANOG on > behalf of Douglas Fischer > *Date: *Tuesday, February 2, 2021 at 10:10 AM > *To: *Tom Beecher > *Cc: *NANOG list > *Subject: *[EXTERNAL] Re: RTBH and Flowspec Measurements - Stop guessing > when the attack will over > > > > *CAUTION:* The e-mail below is from an external source. Please exercise > caution before opening attachments, clicking links, or following guidance. > > Well... That is a point of view! > And I must respect that. > > Against this position, there are several companies, including some tier 1, > that sells this as an $extra$. > > About the "Please break me at my earliest inconvenience." part: > I believe that the same type of prefix filtering that applies to > Downstream-BGP-Routes applies to RTBH and Flowspec. > So, exactly as in common BGP Route-Filtering: > - If the network operator does it correctly, it should work correctly. > - If the network operator deals with that without the needed skills, > expertise, attention+devotion, wrong things will come up. > > > But, this still does not helps to find a solution do an organization A > that sends some flowspec our RTBH to organization B(presuming organization > B will accept that), and organization B do some reports of what is match > with that flowspec or RTBH. > > That, in my opinion, is the only way to stop guessing how long will an > attack will last, and start to define the end of a flowspec/RTBH action > based on real information related to that. > I want to close the feedback loop. > > > > > > Em ter., 2 de fev. de 2021 às 13:07, Tom Beecher > escreveu: > > Personally, I would absolutely, positively, never ever under any > circumstances provide access to a 3rd party company to push a FlowSpec rule > or trigger RTBH on my networks. No way. You would be handing over a > nuclear trigger and saying "Please break me at my earliest inconvenience." > > > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 5:56 AM Douglas Fischer > wrote: > > OK, but do you know any company the sells de Flowspec as a service, in the > way that the Attack Identifications are not made by their equipment, just > receiving de BGP-FlowSpec and applying that rules on that equipments... And > even then give back to the customer some way to access those statistics? > > I just know one or two that do that, and(sadly) they do it on fancy web > reports or PDFs. > Without any chance of using that as structured data do feedback the > anomaly detection tools to determine if already it is the time to remove > that Flowsperc rule. > > What I'm looking for is something like: > A) XML/JSON/CSV files streamed to my equipment from the Flowspec Upstream > Equipments saying "Heepend that, that, and that." Almost in real time. > B) NetFlow/IPFIX/SFlow streamed to my equipment from the Upstream > Equipment, restricted to the DST-Address that matches to the IP blocks that > were involved to the Flowspec or RTBH that I Annouced to then. > C) Any other idea that does the job of gives me the visibility of what is > happening with FlowSpec-rules, or RTBH on theyr network. > > > > > > Em seg., 1 de fev. de 2021 às 22:07, Dobbins, Roland < > roland.dobb...@netscout.com> escreveu: > > > > > > On Feb 2, 2021, at 00:34, Douglas Fischer > wrote: > > > > Or even know if already there is a solution to that and I'm trying to > invent the wheel. > > > > Many flow telemetry export implementations on routers/layer3 switches >
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: RTBH and Flowspec Measurements - Stop guessing when the attack will over
Hi, here is a Flowspec best practices document that I helped write that will hopefully help folks from shooting themselves in the foot http://m3aawg.org/flowspec-BP. As you stated, route policies can be applied to restrict what type of flowspec rules can or can’t be accepted. For example, only allow a rule from the Flowspec controller if it specifies a /32 destination IP and is tagged with a particular community, reject all else. Douglas, I think what you are looking for is DOTS: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8811 DOTS has a data channel which allows the DOTS client and server to communicate telemetry about the attack. The RFC is pretty new. I don’t think that there are any companies that have implemented it yet. Hopefully this protocol will be adopted by DDoS mitigation companies soon. -Rich Compton From: NANOG on behalf of Douglas Fischer Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 at 10:10 AM To: Tom Beecher Cc: NANOG list Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: RTBH and Flowspec Measurements - Stop guessing when the attack will over CAUTION: The e-mail below is from an external source. Please exercise caution before opening attachments, clicking links, or following guidance. Well... That is a point of view! And I must respect that. Against this position, there are several companies, including some tier 1, that sells this as an $extra$. About the "Please break me at my earliest inconvenience." part: I believe that the same type of prefix filtering that applies to Downstream-BGP-Routes applies to RTBH and Flowspec. So, exactly as in common BGP Route-Filtering: - If the network operator does it correctly, it should work correctly. - If the network operator deals with that without the needed skills, expertise, attention+devotion, wrong things will come up. But, this still does not helps to find a solution do an organization A that sends some flowspec our RTBH to organization B(presuming organization B will accept that), and organization B do some reports of what is match with that flowspec or RTBH. That, in my opinion, is the only way to stop guessing how long will an attack will last, and start to define the end of a flowspec/RTBH action based on real information related to that. I want to close the feedback loop. Em ter., 2 de fev. de 2021 às 13:07, Tom Beecher escreveu: Personally, I would absolutely, positively, never ever under any circumstances provide access to a 3rd party company to push a FlowSpec rule or trigger RTBH on my networks. No way. You would be handing over a nuclear trigger and saying "Please break me at my earliest inconvenience." On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 5:56 AM Douglas Fischer mailto:fischerdoug...@gmail.com>> wrote: OK, but do you know any company the sells de Flowspec as a service, in the way that the Attack Identifications are not made by their equipment, just receiving de BGP-FlowSpec and applying that rules on that equipments... And even then give back to the customer some way to access those statistics? I just know one or two that do that, and(sadly) they do it on fancy web reports or PDFs. Without any chance of using that as structured data do feedback the anomaly detection tools to determine if already it is the time to remove that Flowsperc rule. What I'm looking for is something like: A) XML/JSON/CSV files streamed to my equipment from the Flowspec Upstream Equipments saying "Heepend that, that, and that." Almost in real time. B) NetFlow/IPFIX/SFlow streamed to my equipment from the Upstream Equipment, restricted to the DST-Address that matches to the IP blocks that were involved to the Flowspec or RTBH that I Annouced to then. C) Any other idea that does the job of gives me the visibility of what is happening with FlowSpec-rules, or RTBH on theyr network. Em seg., 1 de fev. de 2021 às 22:07, Dobbins, Roland mailto:roland.dobb...@netscout.com>> escreveu: On Feb 2, 2021, at 00:34, Douglas Fischer mailto:fischerdoug...@gmail.com>> wrote: Or even know if already there is a solution to that and I'm trying to invent the wheel. Many flow telemetry export implementations on routers/layer3 switches report both passed & dropped traffic on a continuous basis for DDoS detection/classification/traceback. It's also possible to combine the detection/classification/traceback & flowspec trigger functions. [Full disclosure: I work for a vendor of such systems.] Roland Dobbins mailto:roland.dobb...@netscout.com>> -- Douglas Fernando Fischer Engº de Controle e Automação -- Douglas Fernando Fischer Engº de Controle e Automação E-MAIL CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if this message has been addressed t
