Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/29/20 21:44, James R Cutler wrote:

Supplying any configurable residential CPE would not necessarily be 
cheaper. The tracking and accounting for the hardware and qualifying 
said hardware, not to mention truck rolls for hardware updates, could 
well be more costly than fielding support calls (which would likely 
not decrease anyway).


Probably why the free plan doesn't include a router :-).

Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/29/20 19:00, Mike Hammett wrote:

People love throwing their own router behind whatever Internet 
connection they have. It almost never fails to cause a problem.


I'd only do it if I could guarantee the ISP's CPE will run in Bridge 
mode, or if I can get access to their router to fiddle with.


Router upon router is just bad news.

Google's OnHub (and by extension, their new wi-fi routers) treat Bridge 
mode as evil. At least, it's there.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/29/20 18:50, Aaron Wendel wrote:

The majority of our customers are still on Brocade MLXs.  We're in the 
process of upgrading all our equipment to Arista switches to 
accommodate the increased demand for 40G and 100G ports as well as 
implement 400G ports.


Unfortunately, switch pricing hasn't kept up with trends in the FTTx space.

You'd think major switch vendors would want to corner this market, but 
it seems the data centre business is just too sweet.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/29/20 18:42, Aaron Wendel wrote:

Oh, we still get calls about speed issues. It's always wonderful when 
someone puts their own 10 year old Linksys WRT54G and double NATs 
behind our CPE then sends in a speed test wondering why they're only 
getting 10Mbits on their Gbit line.  We get those ALL the time. :)


I'd be keen to know if they are a large proportion of your support 
calls, on the whole.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/29/20 15:42, Darin Steffl wrote:

Oh they'll get plenty of support calls still, almost all about wifi 
issues. They'll be connected to 2.4ghz on an old device, run a 
speedtest and only get 30 mbps and complain they're not getting 950 
mbps on their free connection.


WiFi issues will always cause support calls no matter what isp. The 
denser the area, the more wifi interference that exists and will drive 
more calls.


I didn't say those won't come in, I meant that I don't expect them to be 
the majority.



Again, it seems nice to be able to do this but most companies don't 
have idle resources sitting around to give away things for free. We 
have zero extra time to work for free.


Didn't know you had joined KC Fiber.

Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Owen DeLong]

> On Dec 25, 2020, at 09:45 , Bryan Fields  wrote:
> 
> On 12/25/20 4:52 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>> For the home, if you're looking at shipping 10Gbps-based CPE's for under 
>> US$200, I can't think of anything other than the Tik:
>> 
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_rm
> 
> That has 1 10g port.  How can that be a 10g CPE?
> 
> 
>> They claim:
>> 
>> - 2.6Gbps forwarding for 64-byte packets.
>> - 7.8Gbps forwarding for 512-byte packets.
>> - 9.7Gbps forwarding for 1,518-byte packets.
> 
> so, not 10g :)
> 
> Add in some services and I bet it goes down from there.
> 
> The bigger question in all this if you're doing 10g to the residential user,
> what are they going to use for their home router/NAT device?  Even 60 ghz wifi
> routers top out at like 5 gbit/s, and NAT at this speed means a powerful CPU.

Sounds like a great reason not to do NAT… If you run IPv6, who needs NAT?

For the rest, there are relatively cheap 2x10G+rest 1G switches coming 
available and there’s this weirdness with 2G/5G RJ ports now appearing to try 
and eke out additional wifi performance over cat5e I guess.

Owen

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Matthew Petach]

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 4:26 PM Niels Bakker  wrote:

> * mpet...@netflight.com (Matthew Petach) [Tue 29 Dec 2020, 01:08 CET]:
> >But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter into
> >petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than the conversion
> >of hydrogen into helium in the sun.
>
> It's not. Where did Mr Metcalf think the energy comes from that is
> necessary for that process? You know, the energy that we can now
> extract by burning it?
>

The same place that provides the energy that gets
water back to the top of the mountains to make
hydroelectric energy "renewable".  The same place
that provides the energy that heats air masses to
different temperatures around the planet, creating
wind currents that move wind turbines to generate
"renewable" electricity.

It's just that water and wind energy cycles work on
shorter time cycles; those cycles are measured in
months and weeks, not in millenia the way the
absorption of solar energy by plants and then
eventual breakdown into petrochemicals underground
takes.

We have short-term renewables, like wind and
hydro; we have longer-term renewables like
oil and coal that take longer than the course
of human history to renew; and then we have
a completely consumable resource called the
sun which powers all the rest, but is itself on a
one-way trip to eventual extinction, albeit on a
much longer time scale.

I'm a huge fan of solar power, of wind power,
and pumped hydro energy storage.  But from
a long enough time horizon, it all depends on
a single, non-renewable energy source--the sun.

We just have the luxury of punting that concern
a few billion years down the road.   ;)

Coming back slightly more on topic--multiple
diverse power sources are always good to have,
but I'm mindful of the fried rodent incident at
Forsythe Hall from the mid-90s.  BARRnet
and SUNet were both impacted when the
datacenter there was taken completely offline
from a power perspective, in spite of having
two different off-campus power providers, plus
a local cogeneration plant and a generator out
in the parking lot.  One rodent in the heart of
the transfer switch made all the different power
feeds completely moot.  From a "single point of
failure" perspective, the transfer switch tends to
be the weakest link in the chain.  Has anyone
developed a distributed transfer switch, split
into different locations in a building, fed at different
entry points, that can withstand one portion of the
transfer system being knocked out?

Thanks!

Matt
(yes, Earth *is* a single point of failure...for now)

Re: 10g residential CPE

[James R Cutler]

On Dec 29, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Michael Thomas  wrote:
> 
> On 12/29/20 8:42 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote:
>> Oh, we still get calls about speed issues. It's always wonderful when 
>> someone puts their own 10 year old Linksys WRT54G and double NATs behind our 
>> CPE then sends in a speed test wondering why they're only getting 10Mbits on 
>> their Gbit line.  We get those ALL the time. :)
>> 
> Does your CPE not have wireless? If it's double NAT'ing it's at least a 
> router. If it doesn't have wireless, wouldn't it be cheaper to add it so you 
> don't get the support calls?
> 
> Mike
> 
Supplying any configurable residential CPE would not necessarily be cheaper. 
The tracking and accounting for the hardware and qualifying said hardware, not 
to mention truck rolls for hardware updates, could well be more costly than 
fielding support calls (which would likely not decrease anyway).

An intangible benefit of ‘free residential service’ is creation of good will 
far exceeding that received by many other ISPs.  
-
James R. Cutler
james.cut...@consultant.com
GPG keys: hkps://hkps.pool.sks-keyservers.net

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/29/20 10:36 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote:
It does have wireless.  That doesn't prevent people from trying to use 
their old equipment in addition. ("My dad's uncle's cousin's former 
roommate works in IT and told me I just needed to plug my old router 
into your new router.")




Yes, but does your CPE buffer bloat avoidance? Latency is still an issue 
when you have a big long packet queue...


Mike

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

It does have wireless.  That doesn't prevent people from trying to use 
their old equipment in addition. ("My dad's uncle's cousin's former 
roommate works in IT and told me I just needed to plug my old router 
into your new router.")


On 12/29/2020 10:53 AM, Michael Thomas wrote:


On 12/29/20 8:42 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote:
Oh, we still get calls about speed issues. It's always wonderful when 
someone puts their own 10 year old Linksys WRT54G and double NATs 
behind our CPE then sends in a speed test wondering why they're only 
getting 10Mbits on their Gbit line.  We get those ALL the time. :)


Does your CPE not have wireless? If it's double NAT'ing it's at least 
a router. If it doesn't have wireless, wouldn't it be cheaper to add 
it so you don't get the support calls?


Mike



--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Peter E . Fry]

From: Ben Cannon 
To: Darin Steffl 
[...]





Again, it seems nice to be able to do this but most companies don't 
have idle resources sitting around to give away things for free. We 
have zero extra time to work for free.
We’re a tiny company and I already have a department dedicated to 
giving [...]



It's all in resource allocation, particularly as applied to a small 
company.  I can't imagine 6x7 or Wholesale Internet have dedicated 
departments of bean counters (apparently no button-pushing monkeys as 
well, even if they work for bananas).  The disadvantage is that 
particular individual personnel tend to be even less replaceable than 
in larger companies.



Peter E. Fry

[Hm: 6by7.net web page? That's even a bit sadder than mine...]

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/29/20 9:00 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
People love throwing their own router behind whatever Internet 
connection they have. It almost never fails to cause a problem.



Well *some* of us know what we're doing. And in my case, it's both 
because it doesn't deal with buffer bloat, but more importantly doesn't 
have wifi. I did get them to put it in bridge mode so it doesn't double nat.



Mike

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mike Hammett]

People love throwing their own router behind whatever Internet connection they 
have. It almost never fails to cause a problem. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Thomas"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 10:53:39 AM 
Subject: Re: 10g residential CPE 


On 12/29/20 8:42 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote: 
> Oh, we still get calls about speed issues. It's always wonderful when 
> someone puts their own 10 year old Linksys WRT54G and double NATs 
> behind our CPE then sends in a speed test wondering why they're only 
> getting 10Mbits on their Gbit line. We get those ALL the time. :) 
> 
Does your CPE not have wireless? If it's double NAT'ing it's at least a 
router. If it doesn't have wireless, wouldn't it be cheaper to add it so 
you don't get the support calls? 

Mike 

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/29/20 8:42 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote:
Oh, we still get calls about speed issues. It's always wonderful when 
someone puts their own 10 year old Linksys WRT54G and double NATs 
behind our CPE then sends in a speed test wondering why they're only 
getting 10Mbits on their Gbit line.  We get those ALL the time. :)


Does your CPE not have wireless? If it's double NAT'ing it's at least a 
router. If it doesn't have wireless, wouldn't it be cheaper to add it so 
you don't get the support calls?


Mike

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

The majority of our customers are still on Brocade MLXs.  We're in the 
process of upgrading all our equipment to Arista switches to accommodate 
the increased demand for 40G and 100G ports as well as implement 400G ports.


Aaron


On 12/29/2020 3:33 AM, Jonathon Exley wrote:

Hi Aaron,

Just out of interest, what switch gear are you using? You must have a 
pretty good cost per port.


Jonathon.

On 29/12/2020 9:38 AM, Aaron Wendel  wrote:
We prioritize calls based on severity.  If both Google and Grandma call
and say they have a cut then we have people to service both at the same
time.  If Google, Century Link, Verizon, AT&T and Grandma all call then
Grandma gets to wait a day.  That being the case, it's not dependent on
revenue. Emergency Services (911 and Police radio feeds) gets #1
priority even though they're non-paying.

But yes, in extreme situations the residential customers would be
delayed to service the paying customers.  We do have people cross
trained from other parts of our businesses so we can allocate internally
in emergencies.  In almost a decade though I can't think of a situation
where someone had to wait for service because we didn't have the
resources to service them.

Aaron


On 12/28/2020 2:02 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
> Darin,
>
> Surely you at least give the paying customers priority over the
> non-paying? It’s one thing to say “I have to write paychecks no matter
> what”. It’s another to say “I’ll give away my support to free
> customers AND degrade support for paying customers as a result.” Your
> tech support guy “walking Grandma through getting her email” is
> necessarily not accessible for the duration to paying customers.
>
> This means your staffing must be large enough to never have any
> queuing, or you’re giving away your paying customers' time to
> non-paying customers. Neither approach is scalable in a competitive
> business environment, because SOMEBODY is paying for all those
> resources, and if it’s your customers, they will buy elsewhere. Your
> approach only work until you run out of other people’s money.
>
>   -mel
>
>> On Dec 28, 2020, at 11:50 AM, Baldur Norddahl
>> mailto:baldur.nordd...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want
>> to point out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody
>> could build out a FTTH network and make it free as a business case.
>> But there are plenty of people that made a network for their
>> neighbors and provided that for free. Maybe a person had a commercial
>> fiber to his home and thought he could just as well share it. This
>> might be on a bigger scale but it is the same.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Baldur
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel
>> mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> 
wrote:

>>
>> Darin,
>>
>> Our business support and residential support is the same
>> department.  I
>> have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it
>> doesn't
>> cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes,
>> walking
>> Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
>> person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or
>> sitting
>> there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the
>> residential
>> customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.
>>
>> Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point.  I've
>> never
>> been one to really do what I "should" anyway.
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>>
>> On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
>> > Aaron,
>> >
>> > The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is
>> much
>> > higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
>> > customers call at least 15x more often compared to business
>> customers
>> > compared on a 1:1 ratio.
>> >
>> > I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service
>> because we
>> > make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
>> > charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
>> > > 
>> > >> wrote:
>> >
>> >     The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone
>> out to a
>> >     house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
>> >     installments
>> >     of $25.
>> >
>> >     The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>> >
>> >     Aaron
>> >
>> >
>> >     On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>> >     >
>> >     >
>> >     > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
>> >     >
>> >     >> Aaron,
>> >     >>
>> >     >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free
>> internet
>> >     >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical
>> for free
>> >     when
>> >     >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>> >     >
>> >     > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment
>> of US$300.
>> >     >
>> >     > Considering

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

Oh, we still get calls about speed issues. It's always wonderful when 
someone puts their own 10 year old Linksys WRT54G and double NATs behind 
our CPE then sends in a speed test wondering why they're only getting 
10Mbits on their Gbit line.  We get those ALL the time. :)


On 12/29/2020 1:28 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/29/20 04:41, Keith Medcalf wrote:

Are you sure that is not related to "residential services" being of a 
generally lower quality than business services?  It has been my 
experience that shoddy service generates higher need for "support" 
than does "non-shoddy" service.  In this regard, the price for 
"business" services should be less than "residential service" by a 
couple of orders of magnitude since it costs orders of magnitude more 
money to "support" shoddy services than non-shoddy services.


Considering that Aaron said 98% of their residential customers are on 
the free plan, and that they use Active-E with every 1Gbps customer 
getting a proper switch port, I'd hazard the bulk of their support 
queries to be non-techie customers needing software support (grandma, 
et al), or fibres being cut.


It wouldn't seem like they'd be getting calls about "speed" issues, 
which are most annoying ones :-).


Mark.


--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Ben Cannon]

> Again, it seems nice to be able to do this but most companies don't have idle 
> resources sitting around to give away things for free. We have zero extra 
> time to work for free. 

We’re a tiny company and I already have a department dedicated to giving - 
really we do have some often highly specific embarrassments of riches as 
telecom companies - and honestly reading between the lines here, Big Telco has 
already paid for the fiber and the trucks have rolled and the guys have half a 
day left, the entire spool’s paid for so why tf not...

It’s easy for the same activity to cost one entity 6 figures, and another, 
literally zero (or more realistically, some extra fuel and a switch and 48 
optics etc.).

Then again it can also cost us $1,000/ft to trench in some downtown metros.

Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE
6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC 
CEO 
b...@6by7.net
"The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the 
world.”

FCC License KJ6FJJ

Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.

> On Dec 29, 2020, at 5:42 AM, Darin Steffl  wrote:
> 
> 
> Oh they'll get plenty of support calls still, almost all about wifi issues. 
> They'll be connected to 2.4ghz on an old device, run a speedtest and only get 
> 30 mbps and complain they're not getting 950 mbps on their free connection.
> 
> WiFi issues will always cause support calls no matter what isp. The denser 
> the area, the more wifi interference that exists and will drive more calls. 
> 
> I understand wanting to offer free internet to a small number of entities and 
> residential areas, particularly hotspots. What I don't agree with is free 
> service for every residential home or apartment. It absolutely hurts your 
> business to do this. It's a charity, not a business then. You say it doesn't 
> take any additional resources to support but it absolutely does. You have way 
> more than $300 into an install. You'll also have to hire additional staff 
> sooner because of additional tech support calls from the res side. 
> 
>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 1:28 AM Mark Tinka  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 12/29/20 04:41, Keith Medcalf wrote:
>> 
>> > Are you sure that is not related to "residential services" being of a 
>> > generally lower quality than business services?  It has been my experience 
>> > that shoddy service generates higher need for "support" than does 
>> > "non-shoddy" service.  In this regard, the price for "business" services 
>> > should be less than "residential service" by a couple of orders of 
>> > magnitude since it costs orders of magnitude more money to "support" 
>> > shoddy services than non-shoddy services.
>> 
>> Considering that Aaron said 98% of their residential customers are on 
>> the free plan, and that they use Active-E with every 1Gbps customer 
>> getting a proper switch port, I'd hazard the bulk of their support 
>> queries to be non-techie customers needing software support (grandma, et 
>> al), or fibres being cut.
>> 
>> It wouldn't seem like they'd be getting calls about "speed" issues, 
>> which are most annoying ones :-).
>> 
>> Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Darin Steffl]

Oh they'll get plenty of support calls still, almost all about wifi issues.
They'll be connected to 2.4ghz on an old device, run a speedtest and only
get 30 mbps and complain they're not getting 950 mbps on their free
connection.

WiFi issues will always cause support calls no matter what isp. The denser
the area, the more wifi interference that exists and will drive more calls.

I understand wanting to offer free internet to a small number of entities
and residential areas, particularly hotspots. What I don't agree with is
free service for every residential home or apartment. It absolutely hurts
your business to do this. It's a charity, not a business then. You say it
doesn't take any additional resources to support but it absolutely does.
You have way more than $300 into an install. You'll also have to hire
additional staff sooner because of additional tech support calls from the
res side.

Again, it seems nice to be able to do this but most companies don't have
idle resources sitting around to give away things for free. We have zero
extra time to work for free.

On Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 1:28 AM Mark Tinka  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/29/20 04:41, Keith Medcalf wrote:
>
> > Are you sure that is not related to "residential services" being of a
> generally lower quality than business services?  It has been my experience
> that shoddy service generates higher need for "support" than does
> "non-shoddy" service.  In this regard, the price for "business" services
> should be less than "residential service" by a couple of orders of
> magnitude since it costs orders of magnitude more money to "support" shoddy
> services than non-shoddy services.
>
> Considering that Aaron said 98% of their residential customers are on
> the free plan, and that they use Active-E with every 1Gbps customer
> getting a proper switch port, I'd hazard the bulk of their support
> queries to be non-techie customers needing software support (grandma, et
> al), or fibres being cut.
>
> It wouldn't seem like they'd be getting calls about "speed" issues,
> which are most annoying ones :-).
>
> Mark.
>

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/29/20 04:41, Keith Medcalf wrote:


Are you sure that is not related to "residential services" being of a generally lower quality than business services?  It has 
been my experience that shoddy service generates higher need for "support" than does "non-shoddy" service.  In this 
regard, the price for "business" services should be less than "residential service" by a couple of orders of magnitude 
since it costs orders of magnitude more money to "support" shoddy services than non-shoddy services.


Considering that Aaron said 98% of their residential customers are on 
the free plan, and that they use Active-E with every 1Gbps customer 
getting a proper switch port, I'd hazard the bulk of their support 
queries to be non-techie customers needing software support (grandma, et 
al), or fibres being cut.


It wouldn't seem like they'd be getting calls about "speed" issues, 
which are most annoying ones :-).


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/29/20 02:06, Matthew Petach wrote:



Mark,

I think you may have misunderstood Keith's comment about
it being "all a matter of time-frame."

He's right--when the sun consumes all the hydrogen in
the hydrogen-to-helium fusion process and begins to
expand into a red dwarf, that's it; there's no going
backwards, no putting the genie back into the bottle,
no "renewing" the sun.  It's purely a one-way trip.

Now, as far as humans go, we're far more likely to be
extinct due to other reasons before we come anywhere
near to that point.

But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter
into petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than
the conversion of hydrogen into helium in the sun.

It's just that we're far more likely to hit the near-term
shortage crunch of petrochemicals in the ground than
we are the longer-term exhaustion of hydrogen in the
core of the sun.   ;)


You're right - I misunderstood Keith's comment about that.

I try to keep it real :-).

Mark.

RE: 10g residential CPE

[Keith Medcalf]

On Monday, 28 December, 2020 10:48. Darin Steffl wrote:

>The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much
>higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
>customers call at least 15x more often compared to business customers
>compared on a 1:1 ratio.

Are you sure that is not related to "residential services" being of a generally 
lower quality than business services?  It has been my experience that shoddy 
service generates higher need for "support" than does "non-shoddy" service.  In 
this regard, the price for "business" services should be less than "residential 
service" by a couple of orders of magnitude since it costs orders of magnitude 
more money to "support" shoddy services than non-shoddy services.

--
Be decisive.  Make a decision, right or wrong.  The road of life is paved with 
flat squirrels who could not make a decision.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Ben Cannon]

We are doing a similar project in Marin county - regardless of ability to pay.  
If I can make it pencil, not only why not, but shouldn’t we all?

Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE
6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC 
CEO 
b...@6by7.net
"The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the 
world.”

FCC License KJ6FJJ

Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.

> On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:24 PM, Aaron Wendel  
> wrote:
> 
> We still build when needed. We're in the process of building to 700 new 
> apartments so we can provide them with free service.  We're actually pulling 
> 576 strands into the basement of one building to backhaul each apartment to 
> it's own switch port in the new hut we just deployed to service that new 
> development.  (we don't use a PON system.  Everyone has a dedicated switch 
> port.)  Also, keep in mind that this isn't all we do.  This is a very small 
> part of a much bigger pie.  So I agree with you.  If this was it then it 
> would make no sense.  When you look at all the pieces together it makes 
> perfect sense.
> 
> Aaron
> 
> 
>> On 12/28/2020 1:50 PM, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
>> I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want to 
>> point out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody could 
>> build out a FTTH network and make it free as a business case. But there are 
>> plenty of people that made a network for their neighbors and provided that 
>> for free. Maybe a person had a commercial fiber to his home and thought he 
>> could just as well share it. This might be on a bigger scale but it is the 
>> same.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Baldur
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel > > wrote:
>> 
>>Darin,
>> 
>>Our business support and residential support is the same
>>department.  I
>>have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it doesn't
>>cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes,
>>walking
>>Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
>>person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or sitting
>>there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the
>>residential
>>customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.
>> 
>>Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point. I've never
>>been one to really do what I "should" anyway.
>> 
>>Aaron
>> 
>> 
>>On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
>>> Aaron,
>>>
>>> The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much
>>> higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
>>> customers call at least 15x more often compared to business
>>customers
>>> compared on a 1:1 ratio.
>>>
>>> I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service
>>because we
>>> make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
>>> charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
>>> >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone
>>out to a
>>> house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
>>> installments
>>> of $25.
>>>
>>> The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>>>
>>> Aaron
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Aaron,
>>> >>
>>> >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free
>>internet
>>> >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical
>>for free
>>> when
>>> >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>>> >
>>> > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of
>>US$300.
>>> >
>>> > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess
>>they'd
>>> value
>>> > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
>>> >
>>> > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year,
>>in which
>>> > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
>>> >
>>> > Mark.
>>>
>>> --
>>>  
>>> Aaron Wendel
>>> Chief Technical Officer
>>> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
>>> (816)550-9030
>>> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com
>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Darin Steffl
>> 

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Niels Bakker]

* mpet...@netflight.com (Matthew Petach) [Tue 29 Dec 2020, 01:08 CET]:
But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter into 
petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than the conversion 
of hydrogen into helium in the sun.


It's not. Where did Mr Metcalf think the energy comes from that is 
necessary for that process? You know, the energy that we can now 
extract by burning it?



-- Niels.

--
"It's amazing what people will do to get their name on the internet, 
 which is odd, because all you really need is a Blogspot account."

-- roy edroso, alicublog.blogspot.com

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/28/20 4:06 PM, Matthew Petach wrote:


I think you may have misunderstood Keith's comment about
it being "all a matter of time-frame."

He's right--when the sun consumes all the hydrogen in
the hydrogen-to-helium fusion process and begins to
expand into a red dwarf, that's it; there's no going
backwards, no putting the genie back into the bottle,
no "renewing" the sun.  It's purely a one-way trip.

Now, as far as humans go, we're far more likely to be
extinct due to other reasons before we come anywhere
near to that point.

But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter
into petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than
the conversion of hydrogen into helium in the sun.

It's just that we're far more likely to hit the near-term
shortage crunch of petrochemicals in the ground than
we are the longer-term exhaustion of hydrogen in the
core of the sun.   ;)


2020: Hawking Radiation, take me away.

Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Matthew Petach]

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 12:28 PM Mark Tinka  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/27/20 21:56, Keith Medcalf wrote:
>
> > Me too.  On top of that, diesel and gasoline are pretty reliable.
> Though some people may argue about "renewables" the fact is that it is all
> a matter of time-frame.  Solar power, for example, is not renewable.  Once
> it is all used up, it will not "renew" itself -- and this "using up"
> process is quite independent of our usage of it, as it happens.  The time
> to depletion may be somewhat long, but it still has a time to depletion.
> Oil and Gas, however, is a "renewable" resource and as a mere physical and
> chemical process it is occurring at this very moment.
>
> Well, the sun can't be "used up". You just have to wait 12hrs - 15hrs
> before you can see it again :-).
>


Mark,

I think you may have misunderstood Keith's comment about
it being "all a matter of time-frame."

He's right--when the sun consumes all the hydrogen in
the hydrogen-to-helium fusion process and begins to
expand into a red dwarf, that's it; there's no going
backwards, no putting the genie back into the bottle,
no "renewing" the sun.  It's purely a one-way trip.

Now, as far as humans go, we're far more likely to be
extinct due to other reasons before we come anywhere
near to that point.

But as far as the physics goes, the conversion of biomatter
into petrochemicals in the ground is more "renewable" than
the conversion of hydrogen into helium in the sun.

It's just that we're far more likely to hit the near-term
shortage crunch of petrochemicals in the ground than
we are the longer-term exhaustion of hydrogen in the
core of the sun.   ;)

Matt

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Jay R. Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Mark Tinka" 

> The MUA many (if not all) of us are using to read this has been obtained
> for free, and with ongoing support, no less. I'd like to see someone
> dish out cash for a commercial alternative.

Zimbra?

K9?

...

Mutt?

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 22:02, Mel Beckman wrote:


Darin,

Surely you at least give the paying customers priority over the 
non-paying? It’s one thing to say “I have to write paychecks no matter 
what”. It’s another to say “I’ll give away my support to free 
customers AND degrade support for paying customers as a result.” Your 
tech support guy “walking Grandma through getting her email” is 
necessarily not accessible for the duration to paying customers.


This means your staffing must be large enough to never have any 
queuing, or you’re giving away your paying customers' time to 
non-paying customers. Neither approach is scalable in a competitive 
business environment, because SOMEBODY is paying for all those 
resources, and if it’s your customers, they will buy elsewhere. Your 
approach only work until you run out of other people’s money.


It's quite fascinating to me how some folk are trying their darnedest to 
fit someone else's creativity into their own mold, so it's more 
understandable to them :-). We live in an age of curiousity, which has 
quickly replaced the age of expertise. If you don't know, ask...


The MUA many (if not all) of us are using to read this has been obtained 
for free, and with ongoing support, no less. I'd like to see someone 
dish out cash for a commercial alternative.


As are a ton of apps and services we use in our daily lives.

Pretty sure someone in the infrastructure space figuring out some 
creativity that actually improves someone else's life with minimal 
burden either way is right up there with, "That's alright with us"...


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 22:24, Aaron Wendel wrote:

We still build when needed. We're in the process of building to 700 
new apartments so we can provide them with free service.  We're 
actually pulling 576 strands into the basement of one building to 
backhaul each apartment to it's own switch port in the new hut we just 
deployed to service that new development.  (we don't use a PON 
system.  Everyone has a dedicated switch port.)  Also, keep in mind 
that this isn't all we do.  This is a very small part of a much bigger 
pie.  So I agree with you.  If this was it then it would make no 
sense.  When you look at all the pieces together it makes perfect sense.


* Drops mic *

Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

We prioritize calls based on severity.  If both Google and Grandma call 
and say they have a cut then we have people to service both at the same 
time.  If Google, Century Link, Verizon, AT&T and Grandma all call then 
Grandma gets to wait a day.  That being the case, it's not dependent on 
revenue. Emergency Services (911 and Police radio feeds) gets #1 
priority even though they're non-paying.


But yes, in extreme situations the residential customers would be 
delayed to service the paying customers.  We do have people cross 
trained from other parts of our businesses so we can allocate internally 
in emergencies.  In almost a decade though I can't think of a situation 
where someone had to wait for service because we didn't have the 
resources to service them.


Aaron


On 12/28/2020 2:02 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:

Darin,

Surely you at least give the paying customers priority over the 
non-paying? It’s one thing to say “I have to write paychecks no matter 
what”. It’s another to say “I’ll give away my support to free 
customers AND degrade support for paying customers as a result.” Your 
tech support guy “walking Grandma through getting her email” is 
necessarily not accessible for the duration to paying customers.


This means your staffing must be large enough to never have any 
queuing, or you’re giving away your paying customers' time to 
non-paying customers. Neither approach is scalable in a competitive 
business environment, because SOMEBODY is paying for all those 
resources, and if it’s your customers, they will buy elsewhere. Your 
approach only work until you run out of other people’s money.


  -mel

On Dec 28, 2020, at 11:50 AM, Baldur Norddahl 
mailto:baldur.nordd...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want 
to point out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody 
could build out a FTTH network and make it free as a business case. 
But there are plenty of people that made a network for their 
neighbors and provided that for free. Maybe a person had a commercial 
fiber to his home and thought he could just as well share it. This 
might be on a bigger scale but it is the same.


Regards,

Baldur


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:


Darin,

Our business support and residential support is the same
department.  I
have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it
doesn't
cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes,
walking
Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or
sitting
there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the
residential
customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.

Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point.  I've
never
been one to really do what I "should" anyway.

Aaron


On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is
much
> higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
> customers call at least 15x more often compared to business
customers
> compared on a 1:1 ratio.
>
> I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service
because we
> make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
> charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
> mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>
>> wrote:
>
>     The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone
out to a
>     house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
>     installments
>     of $25.
>
>     The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>
>     Aaron
>
>
>     On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
>     >
>     >> Aaron,
>     >>
>     >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free
internet
>     >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical
for free
>     when
>     >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>     >
>     > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment
of US$300.
>     >
>     > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess
they'd
>     value
>     > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
>     >
>     > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1
year, in which
>     > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
>     >
>     > Mark.
>
>     --
>  
>     Aaron Wendel
   

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Valdis Klētnieks]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 20:02:36 +, Mel Beckman said:
> This means your staffing must be large enough to never have any queuing, or
> you’re giving away your paying customers' time to non-paying customers. 
> Neither
> approach is scalable in a competitive business environment, because SOMEBODY 
> is
> paying for all those resources, and if it’s your customers, they will buy
> elsewhere. Your approach only work until you run out of other people’s 
> money.

I dunno.  He's been doing it for 7 years, it sounds like it's sustainable in 
his environment.


pgpihFY6TOwD8.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

We still build when needed. We're in the process of building to 700 new 
apartments so we can provide them with free service.  We're actually 
pulling 576 strands into the basement of one building to backhaul each 
apartment to it's own switch port in the new hut we just deployed to 
service that new development.  (we don't use a PON system.  Everyone has 
a dedicated switch port.)  Also, keep in mind that this isn't all we 
do.  This is a very small part of a much bigger pie.  So I agree with 
you.  If this was it then it would make no sense.  When you look at all 
the pieces together it makes perfect sense.


Aaron


On 12/28/2020 1:50 PM, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want 
to point out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody 
could build out a FTTH network and make it free as a business case. 
But there are plenty of people that made a network for their neighbors 
and provided that for free. Maybe a person had a commercial fiber to 
his home and thought he could just as well share it. This might be on 
a bigger scale but it is the same.


Regards,

Baldur


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:


Darin,

Our business support and residential support is the same
department.  I
have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it doesn't
cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes,
walking
Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or sitting
there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the
residential
customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.

Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point. I've never
been one to really do what I "should" anyway.

Aaron


On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much
> higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
> customers call at least 15x more often compared to business
customers
> compared on a 1:1 ratio.
>
> I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service
because we
> make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
> charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
> mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>
>> wrote:
>
>     The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone
out to a
>     house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
>     installments
>     of $25.
>
>     The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>
>     Aaron
>
>
>     On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
>     >
>     >> Aaron,
>     >>
>     >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free
internet
>     >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical
for free
>     when
>     >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>     >
>     > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of
US$300.
>     >
>     > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess
they'd
>     value
>     > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
>     >
>     > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year,
in which
>     > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
>     >
>     > Mark.
>
>     --
>  
>     Aaron Wendel
>     Chief Technical Officer
>     Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
>     (816)550-9030
> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

>
>  
>
>
>
> --
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com  >
> 507-634-WiFi
> Like us on Facebook >

-- 


Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com 




--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mel Beckman]

Darin,

Surely you at least give the paying customers priority over the non-paying? 
It’s one thing to say “I have to write paychecks no matter what”. It’s another 
to say “I’ll give away my support to free customers AND degrade support for 
paying customers as a result.” Your tech support guy “walking Grandma through 
getting her email” is necessarily not accessible for the duration to paying 
customers.

This means your staffing must be large enough to never have any queuing, or 
you’re giving away your paying customers' time to non-paying customers. Neither 
approach is scalable in a competitive business environment, because SOMEBODY is 
paying for all those resources, and if it’s your customers, they will buy 
elsewhere. Your approach only work until you run out of other people’s money.

  -mel

On Dec 28, 2020, at 11:50 AM, Baldur Norddahl 
mailto:baldur.nordd...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want to point 
out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody could build out a 
FTTH network and make it free as a business case. But there are plenty of 
people that made a network for their neighbors and provided that for free. 
Maybe a person had a commercial fiber to his home and thought he could just as 
well share it. This might be on a bigger scale but it is the same.

Regards,

Baldur


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:
Darin,

Our business support and residential support is the same department.  I
have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it doesn't
cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes, walking
Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or sitting
there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the residential
customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.

Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point.  I've never
been one to really do what I "should" anyway.

Aaron


On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much
> higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
> customers call at least 15x more often compared to business customers
> compared on a 1:1 ratio.
>
> I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service because we
> make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
> charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
> mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net> 
> >> 
> wrote:
>
> The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a
> house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
> installments
> of $25.
>
> The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>
> Aaron
>
>
> On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
> >
> >> Aaron,
> >>
> >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet
> >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free
> when
> >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
> >
> > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.
> >
> > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd
> value
> > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
> >
> > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which
> > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
> >
> > Mark.
>
> --
> 
> Aaron Wendel
> Chief Technical Officer
> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
> (816)550-9030
> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com 
> >
> 
>
>
>
> --
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com 
> 507-634-WiFi
> Like us on Facebook 

--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Baldur Norddahl]

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:48 PM Seth Mattinen  wrote:

> On 12/28/20 9:11 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote:
> > Actually our free service doesn't have limitations, has an SLA, no
> > time/term restrictions, a CPE, support, etc.
>
>
> How do SLA refunds work on free service? Do you just pay them some cash
> value instead of credits?
>

I find SLA refunds are meaningless anyway. The SLA is more about stating
what level of service is expected. Then we can tell if we succeeded or
failed in delivering what was expected. In the case of failure nothing can
fix that other than a plan for how it can be improved going forward.
Getting money back will usually not do much to fix the hardship poor
service put you through.

Regards,

Baldur

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Jared Mauch]

> On Dec 26, 2020, at 10:35 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG  
> wrote:
> 
> Here the "truth" is that if you game, you need to have a wired connection to 
> your gaming computer. All gamers "know" this.

My sons switch is hard wired, he gets considerable advantage (apparently) due 
to using the USB adapter vs wifi when playing online.

- Jared

Re: [External] 10g residential CPE

[Jared Mauch]

> On Dec 25, 2020, at 5:32 PM, John Levine  wrote:
> 
> I agree it is odd to make 100/100 the top speed. The fiber service I
> have from my local non-Bell telco offers 100/100, 500/500, and
> 1000/1000. FiOS where you can get it goes to 940/880.
> 
> The obvious guess is that their upstream bandwidth is
> underprovisioned, or maybe they figure 100/100 is all they need to
> compete in that particular market.

My TV (wired) pulls at higher bitrates when doing the initial fetches of the 
buffering.  Not unusual to see it pulling more than 150Mb/s at the start of a 
(non-4K) show.

I think the extent that end-users are impacted by these slower speeds while 
buffering is under appreciated in the experience.

At $dayjob many servers are 10G or 100G so the limiting factor is most likely 
the CPE or ISP.  I was hearing last night about someone with a device that 
didn’t appear to be hitting the line-rate but was dropping 0.5% of packets when 
running at 3Gb/s until they upgraded to one of the major networking vendors we 
all know here.

In my small FTTH network the slowest link is at the customer home and all the 
devices are hardware ASIC forwarded vs offload as you find in some of the 
low/mid-tier devices (eg: Tik/UBNT).

Many streaming things do 8 second waits between chunks, so if you’re pulling a 
video stream at 6Mb/s you really are pulling 6*8 (lets say 50) then idle for 7 
seconds.  If you’re on a 25Mb/s service or even a 50Mb/s service it won’t work 
the way you expect if there’s any other activity.

- Jared

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Baldur Norddahl]

I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want to
point out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody could
build out a FTTH network and make it free as a business case. But there are
plenty of people that made a network for their neighbors and provided that
for free. Maybe a person had a commercial fiber to his home and thought he
could just as well share it. This might be on a bigger scale but it is the
same.

Regards,

Baldur


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel 
wrote:

> Darin,
>
> Our business support and residential support is the same department.  I
> have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it doesn't
> cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes, walking
> Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that
> person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or sitting
> there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the residential
> customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.
>
> Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point.  I've never
> been one to really do what I "should" anyway.
>
> Aaron
>
>
> On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
> > Aaron,
> >
> > The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much
> > higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential
> > customers call at least 15x more often compared to business customers
> > compared on a 1:1 ratio.
> >
> > I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service because we
> > make enough money on the business side of things. You should be
> > charging something, at least $20-30 per month.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel
> > mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>>
> wrote:
> >
> > The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a
> > house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
> > installments
> > of $25.
> >
> > The TIK alone costs us about $250.
> >
> > Aaron
> >
> >
> > On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
> > >
> > >> Aaron,
> > >>
> > >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet
> > >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free
> > when
> > >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
> > >
> > > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.
> > >
> > > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd
> > value
> > > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
> > >
> > > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which
> > > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
> > >
> > > Mark.
> >
> > --
> > 
> > Aaron Wendel
> > Chief Technical Officer
> > Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
> > (816)550-9030
> > http://www.wholesaleinternet.com 
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Darin Steffl
> > Minnesota WiFi
> > www.mnwifi.com 
> > 507-634-WiFi
> > Like us on Facebook 
>
> --
> 
> Aaron Wendel
> Chief Technical Officer
> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
> (816)550-9030
> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com
> 
>
>

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Seth Mattinen]

On 12/28/20 9:11 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote:
Actually our free service doesn't have limitations, has an SLA, no 
time/term restrictions, a CPE, support, etc.



How do SLA refunds work on free service? Do you just pay them some cash 
value instead of credits?

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 20:47, Allen McKinley Kitchen (gmail) wrote:

A company doing what you describe is one I’d really love to work for.

May that philosophy of business be richly blessed.


Couldn't have said it better myself!

Needless to say, when you work with passion and authenticity, somehow, 
the millions follow. You can't keep them away.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 19:48, Darin Steffl wrote:


Aaron,

The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much 
higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential 
customers call at least 15x more often compared to business customers 
compared on a 1:1 ratio.


I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service because we 
make enough money on the business side of things. You should be 
charging something, at least $20-30 per month.


Why "should" they be doing anything?

If their Metro fibre business allows them some change to prop the rest 
of their community up in a way that does not put them out, who are we to 
say they need to conform to what our "gold standard" of economics is?


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 19:15, Aaron Wendel wrote:

The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a 
house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12 
installments of $25.


The TIK alone costs us about $250.


Still love it :-)!

Thanks for sharing.

Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 19:11, Aaron Wendel wrote:

Actually our free service doesn't have limitations, has an SLA, no 
time/term restrictions, a CPE, support, etc.  I explained the "why" in 
a different post so I won't go over it again.  98% of our residential 
customers are on the free plan.


Guess my conjecturbation was not shy to show up :-).

Thanks for clearing up. It's great to see that you are relying on your 
cash-cow to be able to extend this free service to the less fortunate!


That's purpose!

Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 19:01, Aaron Wendel wrote:


Darin,

We charge a $300 one time install charge to cover our costs on the 1G 
service (which can be paid out at $25/mo if you can't afford $300 all 
at once).


The area we serve is mainly lower and lower-middle-class income with 
an 80% transient population.  Seven years ago, when "digital divide" 
and "digital literacy" were the buzz words, we instituted our "free" 
1G service in an effort to level the playing field for the population 
who, otherwise, can't afford internet at all, let alone at that 
speed.  Until recently we didn't charge for residential service at any 
tier.  Rather than putting in "income tiers", making people fill out 
applications for assistance, etc. we just made it free for everyone.  
We also provide free 100G service to the local school district as well 
as free service to local government, police, fire stations (Firemen 
(and women) had to pay for their own internet to use while they were 
on duty before us), library, churches and other non-profits.


That's the why.  The how is that we control a LOT of fiber in the 
metro area that is in use by a lot of very large providers that 
everyone's heard of.  We make enough money doing that so we don't feel 
the need to charge the residences for a basic level of service.


I love it!

Well done, and really creative!

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 16:57, Mel Beckman wrote:

It’s not just the lithium load in the environment that is of concern. 
As early as 2018 the US EPA had collected data on the incidence of 
so-called “hot fires” caused by lithium batteries in the waste stream. 
So far, nobody has been killed. But it’s only a matter of time before 
someone is, given that there are no thermal protection measures built 
into the cells themselves, only into a functioning product. But the 
industry has dismissed self-extinguishing batteries as too impactful 
on weight/performance ratio.


https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2018-03/documents/timpane_epa_li_slides312_ll_1.pdf 



Certainly, poor handling as part of disposal of spent Li-Ion batteries 
is likely not well appreciated. Worse when you are dealing with 
stationery storage like residential, commercial and utility applications.


It's a terrible idea to handle Li-Ion battery disposal without 
expertise, understanding and training. The fact is that for the 
pervasiveness and proliferation of Li-Ion technology,  its safety is not 
a very well understood in many respects, with physical handling being, 
perhaps, the least appreciated.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

Darin,

Our business support and residential support is the same department.  I 
have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it doesn't 
cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes, walking 
Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that 
person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or sitting 
there chatting with his/her co-worker.  If we dumped all the residential 
customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now.


Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point.  I've never 
been one to really do what I "should" anyway.


Aaron


On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:

Aaron,

The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much 
higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential 
customers call at least 15x more often compared to business customers 
compared on a 1:1 ratio.


I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service because we 
make enough money on the business side of things. You should be 
charging something, at least $20-30 per month.


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:


The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a
house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12
installments
of $25.

The TIK alone costs us about $250.

Aaron


On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>
>
> On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
>
>> Aaron,
>>
>> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet
>> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free
when
>> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>
> They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.
>
> Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd
value
> the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
>
> So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which
> time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
>
> Mark.

-- 


Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com 




--
Darin Steffl
Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com 
507-634-WiFi
Like us on Facebook 


--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Allen McKinley Kitchen (gmail)]

A company doing what you describe is one I’d really love to work for.

May that philosophy of business be richly blessed.

..Allen

> On Dec 28, 2020, at 12:03, Aaron Wendel  wrote:
> 
> Darin,
> 
> We charge a $300 one time install charge to cover our costs on the 1G service 
> (which can be paid out at $25/mo if you can't afford $300 all at once).
> 
> The area we serve is mainly lower and lower-middle-class income with an 80% 
> transient population.  Seven years ago, when "digital divide" and "digital 
> literacy" were the buzz words, we instituted our "free" 1G service in an 
> effort to level the playing field for the population who, otherwise, can't 
> afford internet at all, let alone at that speed.  Until recently we didn't 
> charge for residential service at any tier.  Rather than putting in "income 
> tiers", making people fill out applications for assistance, etc. we just made 
> it free for everyone.  We also provide free 100G service to the local school 
> district as well as free service to local government, police, fire stations 
> (Firemen (and women) had to pay for their own internet to use while they were 
> on duty before us), library, churches and other non-profits.
> 
> That's the why.  The how is that we control a LOT of fiber in the metro area 
> that is in use by a lot of very large providers that everyone's heard of.  We 
> make enough money doing that so we don't feel the need to charge the 
> residences for a basic level of service.
> 
> Aaron
> 
> 
>> On 12/26/2020 12:48 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:
>> Aaron,
>> 
>> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet service? How 
>> and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when you should be a 
>> minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
>> 
>> On Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 12:31 PM Aaron Wendel > > wrote:
>> 
>>We run MikroTik RB4011s for residential speeds between 1G and 10G
>>or just supply a media converter.  For residential 40G and 100G we
>>just drop in Arista or Extreme switches.  SMBs are normally just a
>>media converter or direct fiber handoff.
>> 
>>https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in
>>
>> 
>>There are not a lot of options for good, off the shelf 10G CPE
>>equipment.  The handful of 10G residential customers we have seem
>>to be happy with the tik.  The couple that don’t use it have
>>rolled their own solution.
>> 
>>Like anything, I’m sure once the major home broadband providers
>>start to catch up with us smaller guys the vendors will catch up
>>as well.
>> 
>>https://www.kcfiber.com/residential
>>
>> 
>>Aaron
>> 
>> 
>>>On Dec 26, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mel Beckman >>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>
i really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being
deliberately obtuse.
>>> 
>>>Michael,
>>> 
>>>If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously
>>>they don’t see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build
>>>their hobby horse see that? It’s like they’re being deliberately
>>>obtuse :)
>>> 
>>>-mel via cell
>>> 
On Dec 26, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Michael Thomas >>>> wrote:
 

>On 12/26/20 8:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
> 
>Anybody got a feel for what percent of the third-party gear
>currently sold to
>consumers has sane bufferbloat support in 2020, when we've
>*known* that
>de-bufferbloated gear is a viable differentiatior if marketed
>right (consider the
>percent of families that have at least one gamer who cares)?
> 
I don't know percentages, but just trying to find cpe that
support it in their specs is depressingly small. considering
that they're all using linux and queuing discipline software is
ages old, i really don't get what the problem is. it's like
they're being deliberately obtuse. given all of the zoom'ing
happening now you think that somebody would hit them with the
clue-bat that this is a marketing opportunity.
 
Mike
 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Aaron Wendel
> Chief Technical Officer
> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
> (816)550-9030
> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com
> 
> 

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Darin Steffl]

Aaron,

The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is much higher
for residential than any business customer. Our residential customers call
at least 15x more often compared to business customers compared on a 1:1
ratio.

I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service because we make
enough money on the business side of things. You should be charging
something, at least $20-30 per month.

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel 
wrote:

> The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a
> house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12 installments
> of $25.
>
> The TIK alone costs us about $250.
>
> Aaron
>
>
> On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:
> >
> >> Aaron,
> >>
> >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet
> >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when
> >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.
> >
> > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.
> >
> > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd value
> > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.
> >
> > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which
> > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.
> >
> > Mark.
>
> --
> 
> Aaron Wendel
> Chief Technical Officer
> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
> (816)550-9030
> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com
> 
>
>

-- 
Darin Steffl
Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com
507-634-WiFi
Like us on Facebook 

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone out to a 
house to install it.  If $300 is too much you can pay in 12 installments 
of $25.


The TIK alone costs us about $250.

Aaron


On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:


Aaron,

One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet 
service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when 
you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.


They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.

Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd value 
the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.


So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which 
time they'd have likely upgraded the customer.


Mark.


--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

Actually our free service doesn't have limitations, has an SLA, no 
time/term restrictions, a CPE, support, etc.  I explained the "why" in a 
different post so I won't go over it again.  98% of our residential 
customers are on the free plan.


Aaron


On 12/27/2020 4:38 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:


Aaron,

One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet 
service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when 
you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.




For me, looks like a loss-leader to reel customers in, perhaps with 
some limitations, no guarantees, time/term restrictions, no CPE, no 
support, e.t.c., that make a "smooth" upgrade to 2Gbps or 3Gbps more 
sensible.


My theory would be that getting customers on to the platform is the 
hardest step. Once they're on, pivoting them isn't difficult, 
particularly if you nabbed them from a competitor that was charging 
them some $$ for 10Mbps.


Think about it, they don't offer a "Multi-Gigabit Wireless Router" 
with the 1Gbps service. Chances are the customers who choose this 
package either have a crappy device, or will likely buy a crappy 
device on their own. They'd never trouble the 1Gbps product, probably 
call KC Fiber for to complain about not getting 1Gbps, upon which KC 
Fiber recommend their own CPE, a more guaranteed package, e.t.c., and 
in comes the 2Gbps or higher, revenue-generating service.


One the network side, it's just the same port, different (cheap) 
optic. A cheap port in use for free is better than an unused port, if 
the switch and fibre are already installed, and at less than 60% take-up.


It's creative, I like it!



Mark.



--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

No.  Google still operates their plant in the KC area.

Aaron


On 12/27/2020 4:06 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/26/20 20:30, Aaron Wendel wrote:



https://www.kcfiber.com/residential 



Curious, any chance you took over Google's fibre project :-)?

Mark.


--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

One.  For an employee.  Primarily just to say we had done it. :)

Aaron


On 12/26/2020 4:15 PM, Lady Benjamin PD Cannon wrote:

Have you done any 100g Residential connections?

—L.B.

Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE
6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC
CEO
b...@6by7.net 
"The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company 
in the world.”

FCC License KJ6FJJ


On Dec 26, 2020, at 10:30 AM, Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:


We run MikroTik RB4011s for residential speeds between 1G and 10G or 
just supply a media converter.  For residential 40G and 100G we just 
drop in Arista or Extreme switches.  SMBs are normally just a media 
converter or direct fiber handoff.


https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in 



There are not a lot of options for good, off the shelf 10G CPE 
equipment.  The handful of 10G residential customers we have seem to 
be happy with the tik.  The couple that don’t use it have rolled 
their own solution.


Like anything, I’m sure once the major home broadband providers start 
to catch up with us smaller guys the vendors will catch up as well.


https://www.kcfiber.com/residential 

Aaron


On Dec 26, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mel Beckman > wrote:



i really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being 
deliberately obtuse.


Michael,

If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously 
they don’t see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build 
their hobby horse see that? It’s like they’re being deliberately 
obtuse :)


-mel via cell

On Dec 26, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Michael Thomas > wrote:




On 12/26/20 8:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:

Anybody got a feel for what percent of the third-party gear 
currently sold to
consumers has sane bufferbloat support in 2020, when we've *known* 
that
de-bufferbloated gear is a viable differentiatior if marketed 
right (consider the

percent of families that have at least one gamer who cares)?

I don't know percentages, but just trying to find cpe that support 
it in their specs is depressingly small. considering that they're 
all using linux and queuing discipline software is ages old, i 
really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being 
deliberately obtuse. given all of the zoom'ing happening now you 
think that somebody would hit them with the clue-bat that this is a 
marketing opportunity.


Mike





--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

Darin,

We charge a $300 one time install charge to cover our costs on the 1G 
service (which can be paid out at $25/mo if you can't afford $300 all at 
once).


The area we serve is mainly lower and lower-middle-class income with an 
80% transient population.  Seven years ago, when "digital divide" and 
"digital literacy" were the buzz words, we instituted our "free" 1G 
service in an effort to level the playing field for the population who, 
otherwise, can't afford internet at all, let alone at that speed.  Until 
recently we didn't charge for residential service at any tier.  Rather 
than putting in "income tiers", making people fill out applications for 
assistance, etc. we just made it free for everyone.  We also provide 
free 100G service to the local school district as well as free service 
to local government, police, fire stations (Firemen (and women) had to 
pay for their own internet to use while they were on duty before us), 
library, churches and other non-profits.


That's the why.  The how is that we control a LOT of fiber in the metro 
area that is in use by a lot of very large providers that everyone's 
heard of.  We make enough money doing that so we don't feel the need to 
charge the residences for a basic level of service.


Aaron


On 12/26/2020 12:48 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:

Aaron,

One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet 
service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when 
you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.


On Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 12:31 PM Aaron Wendel 
mailto:aa...@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote:


We run MikroTik RB4011s for residential speeds between 1G and 10G
or just supply a media converter.  For residential 40G and 100G we
just drop in Arista or Extreme switches.  SMBs are normally just a
media converter or direct fiber handoff.

https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in


There are not a lot of options for good, off the shelf 10G CPE
equipment.  The handful of 10G residential customers we have seem
to be happy with the tik.  The couple that don’t use it have
rolled their own solution.

Like anything, I’m sure once the major home broadband providers
start to catch up with us smaller guys the vendors will catch up
as well.

https://www.kcfiber.com/residential


Aaron



On Dec 26, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mel Beckman mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:



i really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being
deliberately obtuse.


Michael,

If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously
they don’t see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build
their hobby horse see that? It’s like they’re being deliberately
obtuse :)

-mel via cell


On Dec 26, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Michael Thomas mailto:m...@mtcc.com>> wrote:



On 12/26/20 8:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:

Anybody got a feel for what percent of the third-party gear
currently sold to
consumers has sane bufferbloat support in 2020, when we've
*known* that
de-bufferbloated gear is a viable differentiatior if marketed
right (consider the
percent of families that have at least one gamer who cares)?


I don't know percentages, but just trying to find cpe that
support it in their specs is depressingly small. considering
that they're all using linux and queuing discipline software is
ages old, i really don't get what the problem is. it's like
they're being deliberately obtuse. given all of the zoom'ing
happening now you think that somebody would hit them with the
clue-bat that this is a marketing opportunity.

Mike



--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mel Beckman]

It’s not just the lithium load in the environment that is of concern. As early 
as 2018 the US EPA had collected data on the incidence of so-called “hot fires” 
caused by lithium batteries in the waste stream. So far, nobody has been 
killed. But it’s only a matter of time before someone is, given that there are 
no thermal protection measures built into the cells themselves, only into a 
functioning product. But the industry has dismissed self-extinguishing 
batteries as too impactful on weight/performance ratio.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2018-03/documents/timpane_epa_li_slides312_ll_1.pdf

 -mel beckman

On Dec 27, 2020, at 10:23 PM, Mark Tinka  wrote:



On 12/28/20 05:29, Brandon Martin wrote:


Interestingly, the Lithium content is the, in theory, valuable part of it. 
There's not actually much Li in a typical Li-Ion rechargeable battery (much 
less than a Li metal primary cell), but my understanding is that it's enough to 
have people interested considering that we're already basically consuming the 
world's Lithium supply just about as fast as we can economically mine and 
refine it.  However, that may account for the apparently low recyleable content 
of a given battery. By mass and volume, it's mostly electrodes, which are 
common metals, and paper separator which is worthless.

I would imagine that, as "dead" Li-Ion cells become more available and demand 
presumably continues to rise (absent a better battery tech), folks will get 
more serious about recycling the electrolyte.

A lot of the development of Li-Ion batteries has gone into cost reduction. Very 
little of that has been spent on recyclablity. The lack of regulation around 
this hasn't helped either.

However, there are a number of initiatives afoot that may see this improve in 
the next decade. Moreover, the theory is that the nickel, cobalt, manganese and 
lithium available in spent batteries is not unlike highly-enriched ore. If 
these metals can be recycled at scale, it lowers the environmental impact (less 
need to mine natural ores), as well reduce the cost of the new batteries.

It's one area to watch.

For the moment, Li-Ion batteries are not terribly clean from a recyclability 
standpoint. But as renewable storage goes, it's the least of all evils that has 
great potential to be cleaner from ongoing development.

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/20 05:29, Brandon Martin wrote:



Interestingly, the Lithium content is the, in theory, valuable part of 
it. There's not actually much Li in a typical Li-Ion rechargeable 
battery (much less than a Li metal primary cell), but my understanding 
is that it's enough to have people interested considering that we're 
already basically consuming the world's Lithium supply just about as 
fast as we can economically mine and refine it.  However, that may 
account for the apparently low recyleable content of a given battery. 
By mass and volume, it's mostly electrodes, which are common metals, 
and paper separator which is worthless.


I would imagine that, as "dead" Li-Ion cells become more available and 
demand presumably continues to rise (absent a better battery tech), 
folks will get more serious about recycling the electrolyte.


A lot of the development of Li-Ion batteries has gone into cost 
reduction. Very little of that has been spent on recyclablity. The lack 
of regulation around this hasn't helped either.


However, there are a number of initiatives afoot that may see this 
improve in the next decade. Moreover, the theory is that the nickel, 
cobalt, manganese and lithium available in spent batteries is not unlike 
highly-enriched ore. If these metals can be recycled at scale, it lowers 
the environmental impact (less need to mine natural ores), as well 
reduce the cost of the new batteries.


It's one area to watch.

For the moment, Li-Ion batteries are not terribly clean from a 
recyclability standpoint. But as renewable storage goes, it's the least 
of all evils that has great potential to be cleaner from ongoing 
development.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Brandon Martin]

On 12/27/20 5:26 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
I'm just not sure where all that Li-Ion will go after 15 - 20 years of 
use, though...


One European manufacturer (the one whose battery I bought) says that as 
of now, they can only recycle 20% of each battery they sell. To me, that 
sounds like just the metal case enclosure, and the plastic facia.


Ah well, maybe disposal tech. for Li-Ion storage will have improved by 2040. 


Interestingly, the Lithium content is the, in theory, valuable part of 
it. There's not actually much Li in a typical Li-Ion rechargeable 
battery (much less than a Li metal primary cell), but my understanding 
is that it's enough to have people interested considering that we're 
already basically consuming the world's Lithium supply just about as 
fast as we can economically mine and refine it.  However, that may 
account for the apparently low recyleable content of a given battery. 
By mass and volume, it's mostly electrodes, which are common metals, and 
paper separator which is worthless.


I would imagine that, as "dead" Li-Ion cells become more available and 
demand presumably continues to rise (absent a better battery tech), 
folks will get more serious about recycling the electrolyte.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/27/20 21:56, Keith Medcalf wrote:


Me too.  On top of that, diesel and gasoline are pretty reliable.  Though some people may argue about 
"renewables" the fact is that it is all a matter of time-frame.  Solar power, for example, is not renewable.  
Once it is all used up, it will not "renew" itself -- and this "using up" process is quite 
independent of our usage of it, as it happens.  The time to depletion may be somewhat long, but it still has a time to 
depletion.  Oil and Gas, however, is a "renewable" resource and as a mere physical and chemical process it is 
occurring at this very moment.


Well, the sun can't be "used up". You just have to wait 12hrs - 15hrs 
before you can see it again :-).


Seriously, though, solar != storage. You can have solar (power) without 
storage. It's not very useful when you have a grid outage, or on days 
with low irradiation, but for what it's worth, it will do its thing.


Renewables is not about lasting forever, but about lasting for as long 
as they can with minimal impact to the environment. Economically and/or 
physically.


Having spent some time on this, for me, it's about comfort, and quality 
of life. If you look at renewables as pure cost-benefit analysis (to the 
Economics majors, that's RoI), you'll be sorely disappointed.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/27/20 21:51, Sabri Berisha wrote:


Netflix has a documentary on it, "Fire In Paradise". Gives me the chills
every time I watch it.


I'll have a sniff. Thanks!

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/27/20 19:49, Michael Thomas wrote:

We can't get enough solar panels on the roof to charge a battery big 
enough to handle a multi-day outage, and the battery as quoted is only 
charged from the panels, not from the mains. It's easy enough to get a 
transfer switch though for the battery subpanel to hook the generator 
up to. If I really wanted to get fancy, I could supply the generator 
from our house propane tank, but it's not that hard to just use the 
normal 5 gallon type tanks.


Fair enough.

Naturally, if you're looking at multi-day outages, then you'll likely 
reduce your load quite substantially for the period, allowing you to 
keep the battery running until the following morning when the sun comes up.


But yes, in your situation, a multi-day outage would not be that 
different from an off-grid self-generation scenario; in which case, a 
generator is necessary to recharge batteries, particularly on cloudy days.


Mark.

RE: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Keith Medcalf]

On: Sunday, 27 December, 2020 03:26, Mark Tinka wrote:

>In the end, and for various reasons, I settled on renewables.

Me too.  On top of that, diesel and gasoline are pretty reliable.  Though some 
people may argue about "renewables" the fact is that it is all a matter of 
time-frame.  Solar power, for example, is not renewable.  Once it is all used 
up, it will not "renew" itself -- and this "using up" process is quite 
independent of our usage of it, as it happens.  The time to depletion may be 
somewhat long, but it still has a time to depletion.  Oil and Gas, however, is 
a "renewable" resource and as a mere physical and chemical process it is 
occurring at this very moment.

The "greenies" simply have bad colloquial language usage.  This is probably as 
a result of a failure to understand even rudimentary physics and chemistry and 
operating on miniscule time-scales.

On the other hand, the aliens could be quite pissed when they return to 
retrieve their fuel stash and discover that we have used it all.

--
Be decisive.  Make a decision, right or wrong.  The road of life is paved with 
flat squirrels who could not make a decision.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Sabri Berisha]

- On Dec 27, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Michael Thomas m...@mtcc.com wrote:

Hi,

> Right and here in California, it was precisely those lines that
> incinerated Paradise.

And for those lurkers outside of CA, or even the U.S., the small town
named "Paradise" was completely wiped off the map a few years ago due 
to horrific wildfires. 

The smoke was so bad that here in the Bay Area we were wearing N95 masks
because of it. The masks I bought back then were useful again when the
pandemic started.

Netflix has a documentary on it, "Fire In Paradise". Gives me the chills
every time I watch it.

Thanks,

Sabri

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/27/20 10:26 AM, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
All of the 400V and 10 kV is buried. That means no wires along 
streets, anywhere.


The long haul transmission network consists mostly of 150 kV and 400 
kV lines. That has been partly buried, especially near and in cities. 
There was a project to have it all buried but was abandoned halfway 
due to cost.


But then it is all fully redundant, so they will just power it down if 
it needs maintenance. My company is digging for FTTH and in the few 
cases we need to cross one of these bad guys, they will shut it for us 
while we are working. Nobody looses power of course.


The 10 kV network is redundant too. We managed to hit those a few 
times.  That will cause a power interruption for 10 to 20 minutes 
until they reroute the power. I believe mostly for safety, they need 
to be sure that the damaged line will not become energized again.


It's hard to build in redundancy when the entirety of lower Manhattan 
was under water though. Dealing with that must have been a hellacious job.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Baldur Norddahl]

søn. 27. dec. 2020 19.00 skrev Valdis Klētnieks :

> On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:57:17 +0100, Baldur Norddahl said:
>
> > Here in the civilised world we bury the wires ;-)
>
> Even the long-haul 765kv and up connections across the power grid?
>
> In the US, they're out on towers for a reason - you can fly along them
> in a helicopter and easily spot parts of cable that are degrading and need
> repair because they glow brighter on an infrared scope...
>
> (Plus, as Hurricane Sandy taught Manhattan, buried wires have their
> own rather nasty failure modes)
>

All of the 400V and 10 kV is buried. That means no wires along streets,
anywhere.

The long haul transmission network consists mostly of 150 kV and 400 kV
lines. That has been partly buried, especially near and in cities. There
was a project to have it all buried but was abandoned halfway due to cost.

But then it is all fully redundant, so they will just power it down if it
needs maintenance. My company is digging for FTTH and in the few cases we
need to cross one of these bad guys, they will shut it for us while we are
working. Nobody looses power of course.

The 10 kV network is redundant too. We managed to hit those a few times.
That will cause a power interruption for 10 to 20 minutes until they
reroute the power. I believe mostly for safety, they need to be sure that
the damaged line will not become energized again.

Regards

Baldur

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/27/20 10:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:

On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:57:17 +0100, Baldur Norddahl said:


Here in the civilised world we bury the wires ;-)

Even the long-haul 765kv and up connections across the power grid?

In the US, they're out on towers for a reason - you can fly along them
in a helicopter and easily spot parts of cable that are degrading and need
repair because they glow brighter on an infrared scope...

(Plus, as Hurricane Sandy taught Manhattan, buried wires have their
own rather nasty failure modes)


Right and here in California, it was precisely those lines that 
incinerated Paradise. The problem with PG&E is that they couldn't be 
bothered to maintain anything since it got in the way of cushy estaff 
salaries and investor dividends. The tower that caused Paradise was a 
century old.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Valdis Klētnieks]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:57:17 +0100, Baldur Norddahl said:

> Here in the civilised world we bury the wires ;-)

Even the long-haul 765kv and up connections across the power grid?

In the US, they're out on towers for a reason - you can fly along them
in a helicopter and easily spot parts of cable that are degrading and need
repair because they glow brighter on an infrared scope...

(Plus, as Hurricane Sandy taught Manhattan, buried wires have their
own rather nasty failure modes)


pgpaNvJePUX6d.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/27/20 9:38 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/27/20 18:14, Michael Thomas wrote:

We have both, and are going to get a battery. But the battery would 
probably only be good for about a day which is not enough, especially 
with these planned shutoffs because they have to inspect their wire 
plant in daylight.


If you can add some solar panels to that, you would be in a better 
position to prolong the battery's utility.


I'd say dump the generator, and invest that money in solar panels, 
rather. Batteries are way more costly than panels, and if you can have 
both, you're going to be better off in the long run.


We can't get enough solar panels on the roof to charge a battery big 
enough to handle a multi-day outage, and the battery as quoted is only 
charged from the panels, not from the mains. It's easy enough to get a 
transfer switch though for the battery subpanel to hook the generator up 
to. If I really wanted to get fancy, I could supply the generator from 
our house propane tank, but it's not that hard to just use the normal 5 
gallon type tanks.


Mike, it's sunday so i guess it's ok to be off topic :)

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/27/20 18:57, Baldur Norddahl wrote:



Here in the civilised world we bury the wires ;-)


I'm certain every country has a combination of both... one of those more 
than the other in some places, but a combo nonetheless.


Ultimately, it's most unlikely that any utility company is going to 
serve the growing needs of the world, as a going concern. If there is a 
chance you can self-produce, to some extent, that'd be worth looking into.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/27/20 18:14, Michael Thomas wrote:

We have both, and are going to get a battery. But the battery would 
probably only be good for about a day which is not enough, especially 
with these planned shutoffs because they have to inspect their wire 
plant in daylight.


If you can add some solar panels to that, you would be in a better 
position to prolong the battery's utility.


I'd say dump the generator, and invest that money in solar panels, 
rather. Batteries are way more costly than panels, and if you can have 
both, you're going to be better off in the long run.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Baldur Norddahl]

søn. 27. dec. 2020 17.14 skrev Michael Thomas :

>
>
> We have both, and are going to get a battery. But the battery would
> probably only be good for about a day which is not enough, especially
> with these planned shutoffs because they have to inspect their wire
> plant in daylight. There has to be a better technical solution for this
> beyond just burying the wires. A properly trained AI could probably
> figure out what's naught and nice.
>

Here in the civilised world we bury the wires ;-)

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/27/20 2:26 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/26/20 23:57, Michael Thomas wrote:



Yeah, it burned somebody's house to a crisp here last year around 
here. It certainly makes the case why leaving professionals in charge 
of power issues is the better idea. although with pg&e it's a tough 
call, my telco not so much.


I considered a generator at some point, for home back up.

In the end, and for various reasons, I settled on renewables.

I'm just not sure where all that Li-Ion will go after 15 - 20 years of 
use, though...


One European manufacturer (the one whose battery I bought) says that 
as of now, they can only recycle 20% of each battery they sell. To me, 
that sounds like just the metal case enclosure, and the plastic facia.


Ah well, maybe disposal tech. for Li-Ion storage will have improved by 
2040.




We have both, and are going to get a battery. But the battery would 
probably only be good for about a day which is not enough, especially 
with these planned shutoffs because they have to inspect their wire 
plant in daylight. There has to be a better technical solution for this 
beyond just burying the wires. A properly trained AI could probably 
figure out what's naught and nice.


Mike

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:


Aaron,

One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet 
service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when 
you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.


They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment of US$300.

Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess they'd value 
the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take.


So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 year, in which time 
they'd have likely upgraded the customer.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote:


Aaron,

One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet 
service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when 
you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.




For me, looks like a loss-leader to reel customers in, perhaps with some 
limitations, no guarantees, time/term restrictions, no CPE, no support, 
e.t.c., that make a "smooth" upgrade to 2Gbps or 3Gbps more sensible.


My theory would be that getting customers on to the platform is the 
hardest step. Once they're on, pivoting them isn't difficult, 
particularly if you nabbed them from a competitor that was charging them 
some $$ for 10Mbps.


Think about it, they don't offer a "Multi-Gigabit Wireless Router" with 
the 1Gbps service. Chances are the customers who choose this package 
either have a crappy device, or will likely buy a crappy device on their 
own. They'd never trouble the 1Gbps product, probably call KC Fiber for 
to complain about not getting 1Gbps, upon which KC Fiber recommend their 
own CPE, a more guaranteed package, e.t.c., and in comes the 2Gbps or 
higher, revenue-generating service.


One the network side, it's just the same port, different (cheap) optic. 
A cheap port in use for free is better than an unused port, if the 
switch and fibre are already installed, and at less than 60% take-up.


It's creative, I like it!



Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/26/20 23:57, Michael Thomas wrote:



Yeah, it burned somebody's house to a crisp here last year around 
here. It certainly makes the case why leaving professionals in charge 
of power issues is the better idea. although with pg&e it's a tough 
call, my telco not so much.


I considered a generator at some point, for home back up.

In the end, and for various reasons, I settled on renewables.

I'm just not sure where all that Li-Ion will go after 15 - 20 years of 
use, though...


One European manufacturer (the one whose battery I bought) says that as 
of now, they can only recycle 20% of each battery they sell. To me, that 
sounds like just the metal case enclosure, and the plastic facia.


Ah well, maybe disposal tech. for Li-Ion storage will have improved by 2040.

Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/26/20 22:58, Michael Thomas wrote:



Here in California the new reality is that multi-day outages are now 
common. The first few planned outages were 3-4 days, so that would be 
on the edge, especially if it's for gabby granny on the phone for 
hours.This all depends on the weather, and for snow related outages 
they can go on for days. We have a generator because of this, but 
everybody getting a generator in the middle of the Berkeley Hills 
would be something of its own horror show, but it will probably come 
down to that.


I know someone who will sell you a Powerwall :-), not that I'd recommend 
it...


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/26/20 20:30, Aaron Wendel wrote:



https://www.kcfiber.com/residential 


Curious, any chance you took over Google's fibre project :-)?

Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/26/20 20:30, Aaron Wendel wrote:


We run MikroTik RB4011s for residential speeds between 1G and 10G or 
just supply a media converter.  For residential 40G and 100G we just 
drop in Arista or Extreme switches.  SMBs are normally just a media 
converter or direct fiber handoff.


https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in 



There are not a lot of options for good, off the shelf 10G CPE 
equipment.  The handful of 10G residential customers we have seem to 
be happy with the tik.  The couple that don’t use it have rolled their 
own solution.


Like anything, I’m sure once the major home broadband providers start 
to catch up with us smaller guys the vendors will catch up as well.


I like the Tik for a home CPE because it will keep getting updates for 
as long as you have it.


That is unlike typical home CPE that need to be swapped out every year 
to pick up a new feature.


It does not surprise me, one bit, that the Tik is just about the only 
half-decent 10Gbps-capable CPE out there that won't break the bank. The 
fact that you can get software updates for it every few weeks/months 
makes it a lot more compelling than your usual CPE suspects.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/26/20 20:00, Tony Wicks wrote:


Actually the equipment vendor's build in this sort of situation is normally 
directly related to the availability of affordable chipsets from the likes of 
Broadcom. For example the chipset in my XGSPON router is a BCM6858. No vendor 
is going to spend money to produce a CPE that no one will buy. Once the likes 
of Broadcom produce an affordable solution then all the main vendors will roll 
out CPE in short order.


So by your logic, the chipset is the problem, otherwise, people will 
just keep buying more bandwidth for its own sake, even when they don't 
need it :-)?


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/26/20 19:58, Michael Thomas wrote:



The thing is that the pandemic has changed the game on the ground: 
there is an actual feature differentiator to be had. But having dealt 
with the Linksys folks in the past I don't put out much hope that 
they'll take advantage of it. The software development side was a vast 
black hole where time stands still. It seems the entire industry is 
like that.


A jump from 10Mbps to 100Mbps is a differentiator.

A jump from 100Mbps to 1Gbps, even though more difficult, is also a 
differentiator.


A jump from 1Gbps to 10Gbps... yeah, as my Ugandan friend would say, 
"That's a hard paper".


One would ask, "What happened to all the Gbps in between :-)?"

Again, your issue isn't the bandwidth itself. Your issue is how people 
use devices, as well as the limitations of those devices themselves.


You can, pretty much, forget about much of the world using a wired 
device, going forward.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/26/20 17:55, Baldur Norddahl wrote:



Since a lot of ISP equipment only has tiny buffers you will generally 
be unable to get great downloads from sources far away.


This is true for any application, in general.

500ms vs. 1ms for download efficiency will always show you what they are 
made of, regardless of how ridiculous the buffers are.


The solution has always been to get content as close to the eyeballs as 
possible. The positive side-effect with this, also, is that downloads 
complete sooner, freeing up the line quicker.


Mark.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/26/20 17:35, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:



Perhaps there are some issues at other parts of the network that 
limits their speeds? I'm in Stockholm, Sweden, with plenty of local 
CDNs located just 1-3ms away from me.


The Swedish model (Stokab) is one to envy. If only other gubbermints had 
the political will to copy this. But alas.



Here the "truth" is that if you game, you need to have a wired 
connection to your gaming computer. All gamers "know" this.


I don't have experience with PS5 and perhaps what you're saying is 
true for that customer base. I'd say it's not true for Xbox or Steam 
customers as they see speed prominently displayed on the screen.


https://support.xbox.com/en-US/help/games-apps/troubleshooting/troubleshoot-slow-game-or-app-downloads-on-xbox-one 



"Go to My games & apps > Manage > Queue and note the download speed 
shown on the game or app that’s being installed. "


Very handy.

Never owned an Xbox, so didn't know this.

That said, as popular as gaming is, I'm not sure it represents the 
global FTTH demographic. Also, for day-to-day gaming, I believe the 
worry will mostly be about latency and packet loss, than raw throughput. 
Raw throughput will be key when you're downloading new games or updating 
old ones, and chances are this will happen less frequently than just 
regular playing.


Mark.

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Jared Geiger]

Are there 1G home routers that can do fq_codel in hardware versus the
general purpose CPU on the device? The only devices that I have that will
do a full 1G with it have active cooling fans.

It seems manufacturers need to meet that goal before we ask for 10G CPEs.

~Jared

On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> *nods* That leave delivering a better quality product to the rest of us.
>
> Ya know, peered well with whatever other networks may exist.  :-)
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> ------
> *From: *"Mark Tinka" 
> *To: *nanog@nanog.org
> *Sent: *Friday, December 25, 2020 11:44:00 PM
>
> *Subject: *Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
>
>
>
> On 12/25/20 23:04, Michael Thomas wrote:
>
> >
> > I mean, i understand the arm's race, but now it seems to be an arms
> > race for its own sake.
>
> It is, because it is hard to be different when all you know is to sell
> bandwidth.
>
> The next level of differentiation is being a fibre provider, and selling
> large amounts of bandwidth for less, and less, and less.
>
> It's a total lack of creativity in the infrastructure space, where the
> only goal is to maintain customers on the books.
>
> One of the mobile operators in South Africa, just last week, launched
> new data bundles for customers below a certain age. I mean, how many
> ways can you slice the selling of data because you can't be creative in
> other ways?
>
> Mark.
>
>

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mike Hammett]

*nods* That leave delivering a better quality product to the rest of us. 


Ya know, peered well with whatever other networks may exist. :-) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Mark Tinka"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2020 11:44:00 PM 
Subject: Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE 



On 12/25/20 23:04, Michael Thomas wrote: 

> 
> I mean, i understand the arm's race, but now it seems to be an arms 
> race for its own sake. 

It is, because it is hard to be different when all you know is to sell 
bandwidth. 

The next level of differentiation is being a fibre provider, and selling 
large amounts of bandwidth for less, and less, and less. 

It's a total lack of creativity in the infrastructure space, where the 
only goal is to maintain customers on the books. 

One of the mobile operators in South Africa, just last week, launched 
new data bundles for customers below a certain age. I mean, how many 
ways can you slice the selling of data because you can't be creative in 
other ways? 

Mark. 

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/26/20 3:28 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
Use a router with FQ_CODEL and be amazed at how much you can get onto 
a pipe without any perceptible difference in the experience.




I did that, after a meltdown and yes it made a huge difference. I don't 
understand why CPE don't implement it by default.



Mike





-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
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*From: *"Michael Thomas" 
*To: *nanog@nanog.org
*Sent: *Friday, December 25, 2020 1:27:39 PM
*Subject: *Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE


On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote:


It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people
could use 1G of service at a time. I think it is interesting
to distinguish “>1G CPE” from “true 10G CPE” and I suspect
many / most customers are looking for the former.


Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the
downstream.



Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know 
this sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household 
possibly need a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut 
the cord so all tv, etc is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 
4k I could probably upgrade to a 50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly 
it's just the two of us here, but throw in a couple of kids and I 
still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let alone 1 or 10G. Am I 
missing something really stupid?


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mike Hammett]

Use a router with FQ_CODEL and be amazed at how much you can get onto a pipe 
without any perceptible difference in the experience. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Thomas"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2020 1:27:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE 




On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: 





On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote: 








It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of 
service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from 
“true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the former. 



Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream. 







Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this 
sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly need 
a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all tv, etc 
is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably upgrade to a 
50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us here, but throw 
in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let 
alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid? 

Mike 

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mike Hammett]

Some WISPs I know moved customers from 20 megabit/s wireless to 500 megabit 
fiber. Total usage in that subdivision changed about 5%. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Thomas"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2020 1:27:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE 




On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: 





On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote: 








It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of 
service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from 
“true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the former. 



Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream. 







Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this 
sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly need 
a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all tv, etc 
is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably upgrade to a 
50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us here, but throw 
in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let 
alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid? 

Mike 

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mike Hammett]

Ego. 
Ignorance. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Thomas"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2020 1:27:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE 




On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: 





On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote: 








It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of 
service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from 
“true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the former. 



Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream. 







Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this 
sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly need 
a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all tv, etc 
is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably upgrade to a 
50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us here, but throw 
in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let 
alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid? 

Mike 

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/26/20 1:13 PM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:

On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 12:58:42 -0800, Michael Thomas said:

can go on for days. We have a generator because of this, but everybody
getting a generator in the middle of the Berkeley Hills would be
something of its own horror show, but it will probably come down to that.

Egads.

Especially if a lot of those generators are just bought at Home Depot and
hooked up to the house wiring without a proper cutover switch for the mains.




Yeah, it burned somebody's house to a crisp here last year around here. 
It certainly makes the case why leaving professionals in charge of power 
issues is the better idea. although with pg&e it's a tough call, my 
telco not so much.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Valdis Klētnieks]

On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 12:58:42 -0800, Michael Thomas said:
> can go on for days. We have a generator because of this, but everybody
> getting a generator in the middle of the Berkeley Hills would be
> something of its own horror show, but it will probably come down to that.

Egads.

Especially if a lot of those generators are just bought at Home Depot and
hooked up to the house wiring without a proper cutover switch for the mains.




pgp3KpLpZtF4M.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/26/20 12:44 PM, John Levine wrote:


In the 25 years since I've lived here the power has never been out as
long as a day so I think a four day battery will give me pretty good
reliability. I know my fiber is a straight shot to the CO since I'm
only four blocks away but as far as I can tell, unlike the HFC cable
plant next to it on the poles, their fiber system doesn't use any
powered repeaters.

Here in California the new reality is that multi-day outages are now 
common. The first few planned outages were 3-4 days, so that would be on 
the edge, especially if it's for gabby granny on the phone for 
hours.This all depends on the weather, and for snow related outages they 
can go on for days. We have a generator because of this, but everybody 
getting a generator in the middle of the Berkeley Hills would be 
something of its own horror show, but it will probably come down to that.


Mike

Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE

[John Levine]

In article <653758700.2275.1608968920711.javamail.zim...@baylink.com>,
Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>- Original Message -
>> From: "John Levine" 
>
>> They sure seem ready to take down the oopper. The installer was sad
>> when I told him to leave my six-pair copper cable alone even though
>> nothing is using it now.
>
>Sure; ILECs would *love* to deprovision their copper end networks.
>
>But that's not necessarily a great idea, societally; always-on dialtone
>(or, at least, dialtone with a much higher reliability than VoN) can be
>pretty important.  My LECs in Florida seem to manage five 9s pretty handily
>at the station set; betting FiOS isn't managing that. ...

My telco is a family run rural LEC with some quaint ideas. I asked the
installer who replaces the backup battery when it wears out.  "We do,
of course."  He seemed to think it was a silly question, was surprised
when I told him Verizon felt otherwise.

In the 25 years since I've lived here the power has never been out as
long as a day so I think a four day battery will give me pretty good
reliability. I know my fiber is a straight shot to the CO since I'm
only four blocks away but as far as I can tell, unlike the HFC cable
plant next to it on the poles, their fiber system doesn't use any
powered repeaters.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/26/20 11:49 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:
The thing is that the pandemic has changed the game on the ground: 
there is an actual feature differentiator to be had. But having dealt 
with the Linksys folks in the past I don't put out much hope that 
they'll take advantage of it. The software development side was a 
vast black hole where time stands still. It seems the entire industry 
is like that.


Michael,

Even 100 Mbps Internet is fine for Zoom, as long as the uplink speed 
is at least 10 Mbps. The average zoom session requires 2 Mbps up and 
down, and even for the lavish six-screen executive sessions, 6 Mbps is 
plenty good. So arguing that 10 GbE is necessary because “pandemic has 
changed the game on the ground” is silly.


https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/204003179-System-requirements-for-Zoom-Rooms#h_b48c2bfd-7da0-4290-aae8-784270d3ab3f 



So, sorry, 10 GbE is a hobbyists fantasy, not a marketable product. If 
hobbyists want 10GbE, let them pay for it like the rest of us, and let 
them play CoD from inside  freezing data center :)


I'm not saying anything about 10G, other than my initial query as to 
whether any residence could possibly need that much bandwidth. But 
buffer bloat is a problem with a lot of us still stuck on DSL with no 
prospect of anything better. It's not the bandwidth per se, it is how 
the bandwidth is consumed at home. Better queuing disciplines than tail 
drop with a gigantic queue could help zoom meetings a lot where 
bandwidth is more constrained. And regardless of bandwidth, huge queues 
are not good for real time traffic for anything. You'd think that gamers 
would be acutely aware of this and create a market for routers that 
cater to their hunger for less latency.


Mike

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mel Beckman]

The thing is that the pandemic has changed the game on the ground: there is an 
actual feature differentiator to be had. But having dealt with the Linksys 
folks in the past I don't put out much hope that they'll take advantage of it. 
The software development side was a vast black hole where time stands still. It 
seems the entire industry is like that.

Michael,

Even 100 Mbps Internet is fine for Zoom, as long as the uplink speed is at 
least 10 Mbps. The average zoom session requires 2 Mbps up and down, and even 
for the lavish six-screen executive sessions, 6 Mbps is plenty good. So arguing 
that 10 GbE is necessary because “pandemic has changed the game on the ground” 
is silly.

https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/204003179-System-requirements-for-Zoom-Rooms#h_b48c2bfd-7da0-4290-aae8-784270d3ab3f

So, sorry, 10 GbE is a hobbyists fantasy, not a marketable product. If 
hobbyists want 10GbE, let them pay for it like the rest of us, and let them 
play CoD from inside  freezing data center :)

 -mel

On Dec 26, 2020, at 11:12 AM, Filip Hruska  wrote:

 I wouldn't rely on these numbers too much, your testing methodology is flawed.
People don't expect RING nodes to be used as speedtest servers and so they are 
usually not connected to high speed networks.

Using a classical speedtest.net (Web or CLI) application would make much more 
sense, given the servers are actually connected to high speed Internet and are 
tuned to achieve such speeds - which is much more akin to how the most 
bandwidth demanding stuff (streaming, game downloads, system updates from CDNs) 
behaves.

It's certainly possible to get 1G+ over >10ms RTT connections single stream - 
the buffers are certainly not THAT small for it to be a problem - not to 
mention game distribution platforms do usually open multiple connections to 
maximise the bandwidth utilisation.

Re 85KB: that's just the initial window size, which will grow given tcp window 
scaling is enabled (default on modern Linux).

Filip


On 26 December 2020 19:14:13 CET, Baldur Norddahl  
wrote:


lør. 26. dec. 2020 18.55 skrev Mikael Abrahamsson 
mailto:swm...@swm.pp.se>>:
On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, Baldur Norddahl wrote:

> It is true there have been TCP improvements but you can very easily verify
> for yourself that it is very hard to get anywhere near 1 Gbps of actual
> transfer speed to destinations just 10 ms away. Try the nlnog ring network
> like this:
>
> gigabit@gigabit01:~$ iperf -c 
> netnod01.ring.nlnog.net
> 
> Client connecting to netnod01.ring.nlnog.net, 
> TCP port 5001
> TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
> 
> [  3] local 185.24.168.23 port 50632 connected with 185.42.136.5 port 5001
> [ ID] Interval   Transfer Bandwidth
> [  3]  0.0-10.0 sec   452 MBytes   379 Mbits/sec

Why would you just use 85KB of TCP window size?

That's not the problem of buffering (or lack thereof) along the path, that
just not enough TCP window size for long-RTT high speed transfers.

That is just the starting window size. Also it is the default and I am not 
going to tune the connection because no such tuning will occur when you do your 
next far away download and wonder why it is so slow.

If you do the math you will realise that 379 Mbps at 10 ms is impossible with 
85 K window.

I demonstrated that it is about buffers by showing the same download from a 
server that paces the traffic indeed gets the full 930 Mbps with exactly the 
same settings, including starting window size, and the same path (Copenhagen to 
Stockholm).

Regards

Baldur




--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Baldur Norddahl]

It was not meant to be a test as such, just a demonstration. Netnod to
Bahnhof is full speed and the third server is mine, so all three servers
can deliver at least 1G.

Finding a speedtest.net server at least 1000 km away that will show full
speed at 1G is hard. Namely because most such servers have at least 10G NIC
and that is not an advantage.

It is possible to get 1G at 10 ms, I did demonstrate that myself with the
test to Bahnhof. It is also possible to be limited at 30%. As the test to
Netnod shows.


lør. 26. dec. 2020 20.10 skrev Filip Hruska :

> I wouldn't rely on these numbers too much, your testing methodology is
> flawed.
> People don't expect RING nodes to be used as speedtest servers and so they
> are usually not connected to high speed networks.
>
> Using a classical speedtest.net (Web or CLI) application would make much
> more sense, given the servers are actually connected to high speed Internet
> and are tuned to achieve such speeds - which is much more akin to how the
> most bandwidth demanding stuff (streaming, game downloads, system updates
> from CDNs) behaves.
>
> It's certainly possible to get 1G+ over >10ms RTT connections single
> stream - the buffers are certainly not THAT small for it to be a problem -
> not to mention game distribution platforms do usually open multiple
> connections to maximise the bandwidth utilisation.
>
> Re 85KB: that's just the initial window size, which will grow given tcp
> window scaling is enabled (default on modern Linux).
>
> Filip
>
>
> On 26 December 2020 19:14:13 CET, Baldur Norddahl <
> baldur.nordd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> lør. 26. dec. 2020 18.55 skrev Mikael Abrahamsson :
>>
>>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
>>>
>>> > It is true there have been TCP improvements but you can very easily
>>> verify
>>> > for yourself that it is very hard to get anywhere near 1 Gbps of actual
>>> > transfer speed to destinations just 10 ms away. Try the nlnog ring
>>> network
>>> > like this:
>>> >
>>> > gigabit@gigabit01:~$ iperf -c netnod01.ring.nlnog.net
>>> > 
>>> > Client connecting to netnod01.ring.nlnog.net, TCP port 5001
>>> > TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
>>> > 
>>> > [  3] local 185.24.168.23 port 50632 connected with 185.42.136.5 port
>>> 5001
>>> > [ ID] Interval   Transfer Bandwidth
>>> > [  3]  0.0-10.0 sec   452 MBytes   379 Mbits/sec
>>>
>>> Why would you just use 85KB of TCP window size?
>>>
>>> That's not the problem of buffering (or lack thereof) along the path,
>>> that
>>> just not enough TCP window size for long-RTT high speed transfers.
>>>
>>
>> That is just the starting window size. Also it is the default and I am
>> not going to tune the connection because no such tuning will occur when you
>> do your next far away download and wonder why it is so slow.
>>
>> If you do the math you will realise that 379 Mbps at 10 ms is impossible
>> with 85 K window.
>>
>> I demonstrated that it is about buffers by showing the same download from
>> a server that paces the traffic indeed gets the full 930 Mbps with exactly
>> the same settings, including starting window size, and the same path
>> (Copenhagen to Stockholm).
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Baldur
>>
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Filip Hruska]

I wouldn't rely on these numbers too much, your testing methodology is flawed.
People don't expect RING nodes to be used as speedtest servers and so they are 
usually not connected to high speed networks. 

Using a classical speedtest.net (Web or CLI) application would make much more 
sense, given the servers are actually connected to high speed Internet and are 
tuned to achieve such speeds - which is much more akin to how the most 
bandwidth demanding stuff (streaming, game downloads, system updates from CDNs) 
behaves. 

It's certainly possible to get 1G+ over >10ms RTT connections single stream - 
the buffers are certainly not THAT small for it to be a problem - not to 
mention game distribution platforms do usually open multiple connections to 
maximise the bandwidth utilisation. 

Re 85KB: that's just the initial window size, which will grow given tcp window 
scaling is enabled (default on modern Linux). 

Filip


On 26 December 2020 19:14:13 CET, Baldur Norddahl  
wrote:
>lør. 26. dec. 2020 18.55 skrev Mikael Abrahamsson :
>
>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
>>
>> > It is true there have been TCP improvements but you can very easily
>> verify
>> > for yourself that it is very hard to get anywhere near 1 Gbps of
>actual
>> > transfer speed to destinations just 10 ms away. Try the nlnog ring
>> network
>> > like this:
>> >
>> > gigabit@gigabit01:~$ iperf -c netnod01.ring.nlnog.net
>> > 
>> > Client connecting to netnod01.ring.nlnog.net, TCP port 5001
>> > TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
>> > 
>> > [  3] local 185.24.168.23 port 50632 connected with 185.42.136.5
>port
>> 5001
>> > [ ID] Interval   Transfer Bandwidth
>> > [  3]  0.0-10.0 sec   452 MBytes   379 Mbits/sec
>>
>> Why would you just use 85KB of TCP window size?
>>
>> That's not the problem of buffering (or lack thereof) along the path,
>that
>> just not enough TCP window size for long-RTT high speed transfers.
>>
>
>That is just the starting window size. Also it is the default and I am
>not
>going to tune the connection because no such tuning will occur when you
>do
>your next far away download and wonder why it is so slow.
>
>If you do the math you will realise that 379 Mbps at 10 ms is
>impossible
>with 85 K window.
>
>I demonstrated that it is about buffers by showing the same download
>from a
>server that paces the traffic indeed gets the full 930 Mbps with
>exactly
>the same settings, including starting window size, and the same path
>(Copenhagen to Stockholm).
>
>Regards
>
>Baldur

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Baldur Norddahl]

On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 7:28 PM Mikael Abrahamsson  wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
>
> > I demonstrated that it is about buffers by showing the same download
> > from a server that paces the traffic indeed gets the full 930 Mbps with
> > exactly the same settings, including starting window size, and the same
> > path (Copenhagen to Stockholm).
>
> You demonstrated that it's about which TCP algorithm they use, probably.
>
>
All (virtual) machines used in the experiment are the same. Those are NLNOG
RING network managed machines all running the exact same Ubuntu 16.04.7 LTS.

If you have access to NLNOG RING or equivalent you should try the
experiment for yourself. You will find that as latency increases TCP speeds
goes down and it can not be explained by congestion. And you will find that
some servers have this effect much less than others and that those servers
usually have 1G network speed. The effect is the same no matter what time
of day you try it (ie. it is not congestion related).

Before you panic I will say I am not trying to advocate that we need more
buffers. We need smart buffers. Buffer bloat is bad but no buffers is also
bad. Your home made debloat solution will probably not be able to recover
the missing TCP performance that I am describing here. But if you could
have FQ Codel in the ISP switch that would probably do a lot.

Or we could have TCP with pacing and that will be widely deployed around
the same time as IPv6.

Regards

Baldur

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Darin Steffl]

Aaron,

One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free internet service?
How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical for free when you should be a
minimum of $65 per month to be competitive.

On Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 12:31 PM Aaron Wendel 
wrote:

> We run MikroTik RB4011s for residential speeds between 1G and 10G or just
> supply a media converter.  For residential 40G and 100G we just drop in
> Arista or Extreme switches.  SMBs are normally just a media converter or
> direct fiber handoff.
>
> https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in
>
> There are not a lot of options for good, off the shelf 10G CPE equipment.
> The handful of 10G residential customers we have seem to be happy with the
> tik.  The couple that don’t use it have rolled their own solution.
>
> Like anything, I’m sure once the major home broadband providers start to
> catch up with us smaller guys the vendors will catch up as well.
>
> https://www.kcfiber.com/residential
>
> Aaron
>
>
> On Dec 26, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mel Beckman  wrote:
>
> 
>
> i really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being
> deliberately obtuse.
>
>
> Michael,
>
> If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously they
> don’t see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build their hobby
> horse see that? It’s like they’re being deliberately obtuse :)
>
> -mel via cell
>
> On Dec 26, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Michael Thomas  wrote:
>
>
> 
>
> On 12/26/20 8:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
>
>
> Anybody got a feel for what percent of the third-party gear currently sold
> to
>
> consumers has sane bufferbloat support in 2020, when we've *known* that
>
> de-bufferbloated gear is a viable differentiatior if marketed right
> (consider the
>
> percent of families that have at least one gamer who cares)?
>
>
> I don't know percentages, but just trying to find cpe that support it in
> their specs is depressingly small. considering that they're all using linux
> and queuing discipline software is ages old, i really don't get what the
> problem is. it's like they're being deliberately obtuse. given all of the
> zoom'ing happening now you think that somebody would hit them with the
> clue-bat that this is a marketing opportunity.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Aaron Wendel]

We run MikroTik RB4011s for residential speeds between 1G and 10G or just 
supply a media converter.  For residential 40G and 100G we just drop in Arista 
or Extreme switches.  SMBs are normally just a media converter or direct fiber 
handoff.

https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in

There are not a lot of options for good, off the shelf 10G CPE equipment.  The 
handful of 10G residential customers we have seem to be happy with the tik.  
The couple that don’t use it have rolled their own solution.

Like anything, I’m sure once the major home broadband providers start to catch 
up with us smaller guys the vendors will catch up as well.

https://www.kcfiber.com/residential

Aaron


> On Dec 26, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mel Beckman  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> i really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being deliberately 
>> obtuse. 
> 
> Michael,
> 
> If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously they don’t 
> see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build their hobby horse see 
> that? It’s like they’re being deliberately obtuse :)
> 
> -mel via cell
> 
>> On Dec 26, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Michael Thomas  wrote:
>> 
>> 
 On 12/26/20 8:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
>>> 
>>> Anybody got a feel for what percent of the third-party gear currently sold 
>>> to
>>> consumers has sane bufferbloat support in 2020, when we've *known* that
>>> de-bufferbloated gear is a viable differentiatior if marketed right 
>>> (consider the
>>> percent of families that have at least one gamer who cares)?
>>> 
>> I don't know percentages, but just trying to find cpe that support it in 
>> their specs is depressingly small. considering that they're all using linux 
>> and queuing discipline software is ages old, i really don't get what the 
>> problem is. it's like they're being deliberately obtuse. given all of the 
>> zoom'ing happening now you think that somebody would hit them with the 
>> clue-bat that this is a marketing opportunity.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG]

On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, Baldur Norddahl wrote:

I demonstrated that it is about buffers by showing the same download 
from a server that paces the traffic indeed gets the full 930 Mbps with 
exactly the same settings, including starting window size, and the same 
path (Copenhagen to Stockholm).


You demonstrated that it's about which TCP algorithm they use, probably.

They all respond very differently to increase in RTT vs loss.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1903.03852.pdf

Generally the Internet doesn't need more buffers, it needs less. If you 
have only FIFO available, configure it to tail-drop at 10ms or so, to help 
your customers with what they really care about, interactive performance.


I debloat my 1000/1000 with bidir 900/900 FQ_CODEL to avoid my downloads 
affecting my interactive performance.


--
Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/26/20 10:09 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:

On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 17:50:28 +, Mel Beckman said:

If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously they don’t
see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build their hobby horse see
that? It’s like they’re being deliberately obtuse :)

The number of people that want a router that does 10GbE is vastly
outnumbered by the number of people that want a router that
makes their Zoom sessions not suck.

Admittedly, many of them don't realize they want that router, mostly
because most of them don't realize it's not difficult at all to build one
that does that.  But that's why companies have an advertising and marketing
team. :)


The marketing writes itself:

"Do you have to kick your kids of the network for company Zoom calls? 
You need this brand spanking new router!"


I've been trying to explain to friends that are now saddled with video 
calls all the time what the problem is, but it's really hard to point 
and say "buy this router". There are a few out there that feature it, 
but they're about $200 which is pretty spendy. Considering that this is 
just a OS module, your basic $50 router should be able to support it 
without any problem too.


Mike

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Baldur Norddahl]

lør. 26. dec. 2020 18.55 skrev Mikael Abrahamsson :

> On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
>
> > It is true there have been TCP improvements but you can very easily
> verify
> > for yourself that it is very hard to get anywhere near 1 Gbps of actual
> > transfer speed to destinations just 10 ms away. Try the nlnog ring
> network
> > like this:
> >
> > gigabit@gigabit01:~$ iperf -c netnod01.ring.nlnog.net
> > 
> > Client connecting to netnod01.ring.nlnog.net, TCP port 5001
> > TCP window size: 85.0 KByte (default)
> > 
> > [  3] local 185.24.168.23 port 50632 connected with 185.42.136.5 port
> 5001
> > [ ID] Interval   Transfer Bandwidth
> > [  3]  0.0-10.0 sec   452 MBytes   379 Mbits/sec
>
> Why would you just use 85KB of TCP window size?
>
> That's not the problem of buffering (or lack thereof) along the path, that
> just not enough TCP window size for long-RTT high speed transfers.
>

That is just the starting window size. Also it is the default and I am not
going to tune the connection because no such tuning will occur when you do
your next far away download and wonder why it is so slow.

If you do the math you will realise that 379 Mbps at 10 ms is impossible
with 85 K window.

I demonstrated that it is about buffers by showing the same download from a
server that paces the traffic indeed gets the full 930 Mbps with exactly
the same settings, including starting window size, and the same path
(Copenhagen to Stockholm).

Regards

Baldur

Re: 10g residential CPE

[Valdis Klētnieks]

On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 17:50:28 +, Mel Beckman said:
> If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously they don’t
> see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build their hobby horse see
> that? It’s like they’re being deliberately obtuse :)

The number of people that want a router that does 10GbE is vastly
outnumbered by the number of people that want a router that
makes their Zoom sessions not suck.

Admittedly, many of them don't realize they want that router, mostly
because most of them don't realize it's not difficult at all to build one
that does that.  But that's why companies have an advertising and marketing
team. :)


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Re: 10g residential CPE

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/26/20 10:00 AM, Tony Wicks wrote:

Actually the equipment vendor's build in this sort of situation is normally 
directly related to the availability of affordable chipsets from the likes of 
Broadcom. For example the chipset in my XGSPON router is a BCM6858. No vendor 
is going to spend money to produce a CPE that no one will buy. Once the likes 
of Broadcom produce an affordable solution then all the main vendors will roll 
out CPE in short order.


Do they have no control of the linux kernel? This is purely OS kernel 
work and has nothing to do with underlying hardware.


Mike