Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Mike Hughes]

I honestly wondered whether to wade in here, as I'm another person that
seems to have drifted away from the NANOG community.

But why have I drifted? Partly because I've only got so much T&E budget to
go at, and sometimes I need to be somewhere else that isn't a NANOG
meeting. NANOG has stopped being a "must attend" event for me, and become a
"nice to do", probably once a year to catch up with some people, and only
if I'm not too busy already.

I've also not renewed my NANOG membership since it lapsed last year despite
having previously been a member since NANOG memberships were first offered
in 2011.

One of the things that lost my continued membership was a recent election
where a number of candidates ran as a slate. I felt it to be cringeworthy
and unwarranted. When the opportunity to renew came, I chose not to give
NANOG any more money because members of the incumbent Board had taken an
action that had disappointed me.

I strongly believe the NANOG community is best served by candidates elected
based on their individual merit and their stated platform.

Right now, the Board is all too easily perceived as an unassailable
hegemony of powerful, successful individuals, who hold senior roles in
their (successful) parent orgs, and that's regardless of the positive and
community-spirited intentions they may have had when standing for election.

It feels as though we need to wait for people to term-out and hope one of
their powerful buddies isn't standing to continue the dynasty. Is that what
the Board really wants? It seems not, but that's how it's ended up looking.

There's also something of an "escalator" assumption about passage through
committees and eventually becoming a Board member. While I don't doubt the
experience of the other committees is useful, this "escalator" isn't
necessarily a healthy path to Board membership.

Back to the meetings themselves, I feel NANOG has become less of a
welcoming meeting of technical peers and feels more like a trade fair,
dominated by cliques, cabals, suites & private side rooms. The trade fair
mentality likely attracted the undesirable trade fair antics that have been
spoken of on this thread, perhaps unsurprisingly. Meanwhile, the governance
seems to have become rather politicised and less representative of the
community.

That said, I'm pleased to see there's some recognition of the shortcomings
and a desire to change the status quo.

How that's done? Well that's a whole different question, but I think Dan
made a few good points earlier in the thread. Maybe part of the solution is
having some proportion of Board seats appointed by some sort of nominating
process, while retaining the elections for others, to try and achieve a
more balanced Board.

Thanks,
Mike

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Robert Brockway]

On Tue, 5 Sep 2017, Dave Temkin wrote:


Hi NANOG Community,

Nominations are rapidly coming to a close - September 8th is the last day
to submit nominees.

Unfortunately, to follow up on my paragraph about diversity: So far, every
single candidate that has completed the nomination process is a white male.


What you're describing is a very coarse form of diversity based on 
physical characteristics.  A white man who has lived his entire life as a 
peasant in Ukraine may well have a very different outlook and life 
experience to a white man who grew up in Australia.  These two white men 
could bring quite diverse viewpoints to any situation even though they 
share some superficial characteristics.


I have always supported the most suitable candidates for any role, 
irrespective of their physical characteristics.  I will always continue to 
do so.


Rob

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Dave Temkin]

On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Randy Bush  wrote:

> > So how do we fix it?
>
> this is most strongly an american disease.  nanog has encouraged and
> supported a frat boy ego parade and beauty contest.  try the ietf
> nomcomm approach, but with zero white boys on the nomcomm.
>
>
Love the idea, and I agree that the elections are a popularity contest in
many cases and not a measure of who is most capable for the job. Luckily,
we've generally ended up with people who are both - but that's not always
best for the organization long term, and we generally end up with "more of
the same".

In my tenure in NANOG we've floated the idea of a nomcom a few times, but
it's generally been summarily shot down. Are you suggesting that we try and
float the idea again? I'm not 100% clear, but I believe it would require a
bylaw change.



> btw, one trick is getting more then one diverse player, so the one is
> not a martian and has peer support
>
> s/women/diversity/
>
>
Completely agree; gender is only one of various keys that are important
here. Race, age, national origin, orientation, etc. - all of these things
matter in avoiding groupthink and helping to ensure that the board is
representative of the membership that we wish to attract.


> q: how many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb
> a: one, but the light bulb has to want to change
>
>
Alternate A: Depends, are we having the conference in a union hotel?

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Randy Bush]

> So how do we fix it?

since bussing is out, you're left with affirmative action :)

ask the ripe women, a strong group, how they got women to be willing to
server on the board

ask the ietf women, a strong group, how they got women to be willing to
server in the iesg

apnic has a star woman on the execcom, ask her

this is most strongly an american disease.  nanog has encouraged and
supported a frat boy ego parade and beauty contest.  try the ietf
nomcomm approach, but with zero white boys on the nomcomm.

btw, one trick is getting more then one diverse player, so the one is
not a martian and has peer support

s/women/diversity/

q: how many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb
a: one, but the light bulb has to want to change

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Dave Temkin]

On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Bill Woodcock  wrote:

> >> On Sep 10, 2017, at 1:59 PM, Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> >> I point specifically to the opening talk at Bellevue where there were
> wackily photoshop'd pictures of NANOG star heavy-hitters.
> >> Had I been a first-time attendee, I would've felt like a high-school
> freshman being told who all the "cool seniors" were.
> >> Frankly, it was awkward and off-putting.
> >
> > On Sep 11, 2017, at 12:32 AM, Bill Woodcock  wrote:
> > Probably a safe bet that it was mostly aspirant juniors.
>
> Patrick has pointed out to me that my offhand dismissiveness painted with
> an overly broad brush and encompassed people whom I undoubtedly do not
> think so little of.  So, my sincere apologies for my tone and
> speaking-out-of-turn about a slide deck that I hadn’t actually seen.  I do
> very much miss the “cool seniors” who worked so hard to make this what it
> was, twenty-five and thirty years ago; I owe them a lot.  I’m sure the
> people who are working hard to make the organization what it is today are
> serving a similar function for people who are entering the industry today.
>

Thanks Bill. That's definitely an accurate representation from my personal
vantage point. Personally in my role within the organization I've stressed
the importance of bringing the next Paul Vixie or Sean Doran into the
industry and fostering their growth and influence. To me that's where NANOG
can add the most value for the next 70 meetings.


>
> Nostalgia was causing me to conflate two things which are unrelated  The
> frat-boy thing is a problem, not only in NANOG, but in ARIN and RIPE.  I’d
> very much like to see it fixed, so that everyone can enjoy collegial
> support, rather than just a subset of participants.
>
>
Totally agree here. I'd love to come up with more ideas on how to fix this
real issue; my personal diversity & inclusion bent is squarely aimed at
that problem.

-Dave

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Bill Woodcock]

>> On Sep 10, 2017, at 1:59 PM, Bryan Holloway  wrote:
>> I point specifically to the opening talk at Bellevue where there were 
>> wackily photoshop'd pictures of NANOG star heavy-hitters.
>> Had I been a first-time attendee, I would've felt like a high-school 
>> freshman being told who all the "cool seniors" were.
>> Frankly, it was awkward and off-putting.
> 
> On Sep 11, 2017, at 12:32 AM, Bill Woodcock  wrote:
> Probably a safe bet that it was mostly aspirant juniors.

Patrick has pointed out to me that my offhand dismissiveness painted with an 
overly broad brush and encompassed people whom I undoubtedly do not think so 
little of.  So, my sincere apologies for my tone and speaking-out-of-turn about 
a slide deck that I hadn’t actually seen.  I do very much miss the “cool 
seniors” who worked so hard to make this what it was, twenty-five and thirty 
years ago; I owe them a lot.  I’m sure the people who are working hard to make 
the organization what it is today are serving a similar function for people who 
are entering the industry today.

Nostalgia was causing me to conflate two things which are unrelated  The 
frat-boy thing is a problem, not only in NANOG, but in ARIN and RIPE.  I’d very 
much like to see it fixed, so that everyone can enjoy collegial support, rather 
than just a subset of participants.

-Bill

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Dave Temkin]

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Bill Woodcock  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:26 PM, Randy Bush  wrote:
> > my impression is that, in recent years, one has to be a white frat boy
> > who is proud of being drunk.
>
> One of those rare occasions when Randy and I are in complete agreement.
>

So how do we fix it? As usual, that part is missed. Easier to snipe, not so
easy to act.


>
> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 1:59 PM, Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> > I point specifically to the opening talk at Bellevue where there were
> wackily photoshop'd pictures of NANOG star heavy-hitters.
> > Had I been a first-time attendee, I would've felt like a high-school
> freshman being told who all the "cool seniors" were.
> > Frankly, it was awkward and off-putting.
>
> Probably a safe bet that it was mostly aspirant juniors.  To my occasional
> observation, the cool seniors don't attend anymore.  Unless Stephen Stuart
> or Sean Doran or John Hawkinson showed up.  Which would surprise me very
> much.
>
>
I didn't like that opening, at all. I disliked it slightly less than when
they had a video making fun of us. I personally and in my Board position
thank NTT for sponsoring our events, and we give them, like all other
hosts, a few minutes during the opening to do something that they think
attendees will find educational and/or entertaining. I, like you, sincerely
hate the inside jokes being tossed around from the stage and gave them my
personal feedback as such. They are far from the only sponsor to have done
so, and if you really feel that it's causing a hostile environment for
newcomers, I suggest you speak up about it on the members list so that we
can figure out the best way to fix it. With that said, newcomers may feel
this moment of awkwardness during the opening, but we go above and beyond
afterwards to make them feel welcome (newcomers lunch with a personal
shepherd, etc.) that I hope at least has made up for some of it in the
past.

I won't sit around and mourn the greybeards that choose or don't choose to
show up. We can't go chasing after people who have had vast changes in
their career responsibilities and life circumstances and assume that we can
always produce the conference that fits their aspirations. At some point we
need to hand the torch over to the next guard, and that's the root of my
diversity screed. If we try to be everything to everyone, we end up as
nothing to no one (or worse, ITW). The board has been nothing but receptive
towards ideas on how to make these meetings more valuable to long time and
first time attendees alike.

-Dave Temkin
NANOG Board Chair

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Bill Woodcock]

> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:26 PM, Randy Bush  wrote:
> my impression is that, in recent years, one has to be a white frat boy
> who is proud of being drunk.

One of those rare occasions when Randy and I are in complete agreement.

> On Sep 10, 2017, at 1:59 PM, Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> I point specifically to the opening talk at Bellevue where there were wackily 
> photoshop'd pictures of NANOG star heavy-hitters.
> Had I been a first-time attendee, I would've felt like a high-school freshman 
> being told who all the "cool seniors" were.
> Frankly, it was awkward and off-putting.

Probably a safe bet that it was mostly aspirant juniors.  To my occasional 
observation, the cool seniors don't attend anymore.  Unless Stephen Stuart or 
Sean Doran or John Hawkinson showed up.  Which would surprise me very much.

-Bill

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Ken Matlock]

Yep, I've been in this industry since.. '94 or so, and the absolute number
one reason that I do not participate in NANOG is that even going back as
far as I can remember it's been a good-old-boy's club.

Yes, there are some very smart people that speak up, but I see time and
time again the cliques and good-old-boys club mentality inherent in NANOG.
And because of this, the thinking and mindset of NANOG in general will (in
my opinion) never change.

As you mention there is definitely a 'cool kids' or Ivory tower mentality.
And I'm not sure that it really *can* be fixed and more welcoming of newer
members without risking alienating the old guard. So for the most part I
tease out the nuggets of wisdom I can, and ignore most of the mindless
arguments that we have been over time and time again about.

Ken


On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Scott Weeks  wrote:

>
> --- br...@shout.net wrote:
> From: Bryan Holloway 
>
> Had I been a first-time attendee, I would've felt like a
> high-school freshman being told who all the "cool seniors"
> were.
>
> Frankly, it was awkward and off-putting.
> ---
>
> Not only first time attendees, but also long time list
> participants are made to feel that way; me included for
> making comments about vendor spam or top posting.  I note
> that not only randy is doing what he says, but other old
> schoolers are now gone (such as vixie, li and others) who
> are folks that a person could learn a lot from.
>
> scott
>
> ps.  I always shot peas at the "cool kids" table in the
> lunch room in high school.  From time-to-time I want
> virtual peas to shoot now days...  >;-)
>

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Scott Weeks]

--- br...@shout.net wrote:
From: Bryan Holloway 

Had I been a first-time attendee, I would've felt like a 
high-school freshman being told who all the "cool seniors" 
were.

Frankly, it was awkward and off-putting.
---

Not only first time attendees, but also long time list
participants are made to feel that way; me included for 
making comments about vendor spam or top posting.  I note 
that not only randy is doing what he says, but other old 
schoolers are now gone (such as vixie, li and others) who 
are folks that a person could learn a lot from.

scott

ps.  I always shot peas at the "cool kids" table in the 
lunch room in high school.  From time-to-time I want
virtual peas to shoot now days...  >;-)

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Bryan Holloway]

This leads to a good point, and I think the point Randy was trying to make
- the Board elections should not be a popularity contest, either in terms
of who people like or who the best engineers are. It should *not* be
focused on who has the most fun at the socials or the room parties.


+1 ... and ..

... if I may expand candidly on this, I'd like to see a little less of 
an -- to use the term loosely -- "Old Boys Network" mentality at meetings.


I point specifically to the opening talk at Bellevue where there were 
wackily photoshop'd pictures of NANOG star heavy-hitters.


I consider myself a relative newcomer to the community, and I find the 
meetings invaluable, but I've been to enough of them to know who the 
folks pictured were. Had I been a first-time attendee, I would've felt 
like a high-school freshman being told who all the "cool seniors" were.


Frankly, it was awkward and off-putting.

Just my $0.02 worth.



On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 2:28 AM Randy Bush  wrote:


my impression is that, in recent years, one has to be a white frat boy
who is proud of being drunk.

randy, who stopped attending

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Daniel Golding]

I think you would have to work very hard to find a more sober group of
individuals than the current and past members of the NANOG Board.  I don't
disagree with Randy that there is too much drinking and too much white frat
boy nonsense in our industry. That being said, if you look at the past
members of the NANOG board - folks like Sylvie, Dave, Ryan, Greg, Steve F,
Mike Smith, Steve Gibbard, Duane, Jezzibell - you'll find people who *don't*
buy into the party culture that sometimes surrounds NANOG.

This leads to a good point, and I think the point Randy was trying to make
- the Board elections should not be a popularity contest, either in terms
of who people like or who the best engineers are. It should *not* be
focused on who has the most fun at the socials or the room parties.

Carefully look at the qualifications of who is running. Do they have prior
experience on NANOG committees? Are they long time volunteers who
understand the community and its mission? Are they diverse and help us look
more like the network engineering community at large? There are a great mix
of folks running. Some clearly do not meet these standards. Some do. Please
be discerning in your vote.

Dan







On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 2:28 AM Randy Bush  wrote:

> my impression is that, in recent years, one has to be a white frat boy
> who is proud of being drunk.
>
> randy, who stopped attending
>

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Randy Bush]

my impression is that, in recent years, one has to be a white frat boy
who is proud of being drunk.

randy, who stopped attending

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Dave Temkin]

While I respect your opinion, it's impossible to enumerate every single
possible combination that would make a person diverse and keep this a
reasonable length email.

Diversity of race and gender (amongst other things) is a shortcut to saying
diversity of background. What we have today are a bunch of North American
males that came up in similar backgrounds.

What I can say, and what does concern me, is that the current board shares
a lot of very similar characteristics that are easy to group together due
to our gender and ethnicity. This leads to groupthink and other less
desirable behaviors by a team tasked with setting a strategic direction
that benefits millions of very different people all over the internet.

And with that, I will state that we have many qualified candidates on the
slate, both who fit the current grouping and those who will bring some
amount of diversity to the group. You are free to vote whomever you choose.

Best Regards,
-Dave

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Robert Brockway 
wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Sep 2017, Dave Temkin wrote:
>
> Hi NANOG Community,
>>
>> Nominations are rapidly coming to a close - September 8th is the last day
>> to submit nominees.
>>
>> Unfortunately, to follow up on my paragraph about diversity: So far, every
>> single candidate that has completed the nomination process is a white
>> male.
>>
>
> What you're describing is a very coarse form of diversity based on
> physical characteristics.  A white man who has lived his entire life as a
> peasant in Ukraine may well have a very different outlook and life
> experience to a white man who grew up in Australia.  These two white men
> could bring quite diverse viewpoints to any situation even though they
> share some superficial characteristics.
>
> I have always supported the most suitable candidates for any role,
> irrespective of their physical characteristics.  I will always continue to
> do so.
>
> Rob
>

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Steve Feldman]

> On Sep 6, 2017, at 8:03 PM, courtneysm...@comcast.net wrote:
> 
> Have we considered "grooming" folks via the committees? Seems like a better 
> place to allow folks to dip their toes in. 

Definitely!  Most (maybe all?) of the current board members previously served 
on the Program Committee or one of the other committees before being elected to 
the board.  Volunteering for a committee role is an excellent way to get 
started.  The next round of PC nominations will start in early 2018.

 Steve

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[courtneysmith]

Have we considered "grooming" folks via the committees? Seems like a better 
place to allow folks to dip their toes in. But maybe I'm too timid. 

--- 
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 10:59:32 -0700 
From: Dave Temkin  
To: memb...@nanog.org, "North American Network Operators' Group" 
 
Subject: Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information 
Message-ID: 
 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 

Hi NANOG Community, 

Nominations are rapidly coming to a close - September 8th is the last day 
to submit nominees. 

Unfortunately, to follow up on my paragraph about diversity: So far, every 
single candidate that has completed the nomination process is a white male. 

Having sat in on sessions such as Women in Technology lunch, I know that 
this community is passionate about diversity. If you, or a friend, would 
like to discuss what it takes to be on the NANOG board, I or my colleagues 
would love to speak about it. 

If you're ready to enter the nomination process, you can see details below. 

Best Regards, 
-Dave Temkin, for the NANOG Board of Directors 

Re: 2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Dave Temkin]

Hi NANOG Community,

Nominations are rapidly coming to a close - September 8th is the last day
to submit nominees.

Unfortunately, to follow up on my paragraph about diversity: So far, every
single candidate that has completed the nomination process is a white male.

Having sat in on sessions such as Women in Technology lunch, I know that
this community is passionate about diversity. If you, or a friend, would
like to discuss what it takes to be on the NANOG board, I or my colleagues
would love to speak about it.

If you're ready to enter the nomination process, you can see details below.

Best Regards,
-Dave Temkin, for the NANOG Board of Directors

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Dave Temkin  wrote:

> Hello NANOGers!
>
> We are once again approaching the annual NANOG election
>  and appointment time. Board
> candidate nominations open August 7th and the complete Election timeline
> can be found here . We encourage
> those in the community who are not currently NANOG members to consider
> becoming members of NANOG and to consider standing for a position in our
> leadership. Through membership and voting, you will be an active
> participant in directing all NANOG activities.
>
> Only NANOG members are eligible to nominate, be a candidate, vote, and
> serve in the NANOG Board of Directors and Committees.  Click here
>  to become a member today!  **If you
> are not a member and wish to vote in this election, your membership must
> be received by 9:00 a.m. Pacific Time on Wednesday, October 4, 2017.**
>
> Why?
>
> NANOG is at its strongest and best when there is an engaged group of
> members. If you care about NANOG and would like to take a turn at
> volunteering your time, please consider becoming part of the team by taking
> part in the nomination and election process. If you know someone else
> that you believe would be interested in serving on the Board of Directors,
> nominate them by completing the Online Process
>  beginning August 7, 2017.  Any
> questions should be submitted to electi...@nanog.org.
>
> As I spoke about during my opening at NANOG 70, diversity is key to the
> viability of the NANOG community. Personally, it concerns me that our only
> non-white, non-male elected member of the Board is leaving the board this
> year, having served the maximum allowable number of terms. While everyone
> is welcome, it is important that we represent our community well at all
> levels and so if you or someone you know could help improve that
> representation, please consider the nomination process.
>
> As NANOG continues to evolve, our Board of Directors and Committees will
> continue to play an increasingly important role in our success. By joining
> now, you can be an integral part of the process.
>
> For more information about the role of a Board of Director or any
> Committee Member, or to find out more about what's involved in serving,
> please consult the current NANOG Bylaws
> 
> or follow the links to the Board and Committee pages from the General
> 2017 NANOG Elections Page .
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dave Temkin
> On behalf of the NANOG Board of Directors
>

2017 NANOG Elections General Information

[Dave Temkin]

Hello NANOGers!

We are once again approaching the annual NANOG election
 and appointment time. Board
candidate nominations open August 7th and the complete Election timeline
can be found here . We encourage
those in the community who are not currently NANOG members to consider
becoming members of NANOG and to consider standing for a position in our
leadership. Through membership and voting, you will be an active
participant in directing all NANOG activities.

Only NANOG members are eligible to nominate, be a candidate, vote, and
serve in the NANOG Board of Directors and Committees.  Click here
 to become a member today!  **If you are
not a member and wish to vote in this election, your membership must be
received by 9:00 a.m. Pacific Time on Wednesday, October 4, 2017.**

Why?

NANOG is at its strongest and best when there is an engaged group of
members. If you care about NANOG and would like to take a turn at
volunteering your time, please consider becoming part of the team by taking
part in the nomination and election process. If you know someone else that
you believe would be interested in serving on the Board of Directors,
nominate them by completing the Online Process
 beginning August 7, 2017.  Any
questions should be submitted to electi...@nanog.org.

As I spoke about during my opening at NANOG 70, diversity is key to the
viability of the NANOG community. Personally, it concerns me that our only
non-white, non-male elected member of the Board is leaving the board this
year, having served the maximum allowable number of terms. While everyone
is welcome, it is important that we represent our community well at all
levels and so if you or someone you know could help improve that
representation, please consider the nomination process.

As NANOG continues to evolve, our Board of Directors and Committees will
continue to play an increasingly important role in our success. By joining
now, you can be an integral part of the process.

For more information about the role of a Board of Director or any Committee
Member, or to find out more about what's involved in serving, please
consult the current NANOG Bylaws

or follow the links to the Board and Committee pages from the General 2017
NANOG Elections Page .


Best regards,

Dave Temkin
On behalf of the NANOG Board of Directors