Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[William Herrin]

On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 5:09 PM, John Curran  wrote:
> On 3 Oct 2016, at 4:06 PM, William Herrin  wrote:
>> ARIN asserts they've taken no action because community developed
>> policy instructs them not to.  That is a half-truth. The whole truth
>> is that ARIN has bent over backwards to avoid testing in court whether
>> they have the lawful authority to enforce any policies against legacy
>> address holders, even to the extent of bending or breaking their own
>> policies when settling a court case.
>
> Bill - You’re not quite correct with these statements, as there
> have been many court orders that require parties to enter
> into an RSA and comply with the IP registry policy

Hi John,

I was a little sloppy with my language. When two parties in a court
case reach an agreement and ask the judge to accept that agreement,
the result is a court order. It is not, however, a precedent-setting
judgement.

> Half-correct, in that these bankruptcy cases do result in judicial orders;
> however, the fact that the parties consent to the terms in order to proceed
> with the transfer is correct.
> (Presumably they would do otherwise if they
> had a valid basis for argument, but that hasn’t happened.)

That reasoning escapes me. How does years in court fighting ARIN
advantage a buyer in a bankruptcy sale? Make the best deal you can
without a fight and quickly close. Bankruptcies are all about
pragmatism.


> We have routinely argue that IP address blocks are not
> common law property and prevail - we have never been
> ordered to make registry updates contrary
> to the community policy.

You prevail through consent. In one sense, that speaks well of you.
But no court has ruled either for you or against you. There is
literally no precedent on the matter of addresses as property as a
result of the cases ARIN has been involved in. And in my opinion, ARIN
has cut a couple shifty deals to avoid having a judge rule in a way
that would set a precedent.

That probably comes across harsher than I intend. I think it's good
that ARIN seeks agreement over conflict. Wise even - addresses handed
out after ARIN's inception are governed under much clearer contract
law. Enough delay settling the law with respect to legacy IPv4
addresses will let IPv6 render the issue moot.

Anyway, my point is that ARIN's position on the matter aside, no one
holding legacy IP addresses should believe that addresses as
non-property is settled law.

And with that I'll get off my soap box and bid you a good evening.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[John Curran]

On 3 Oct 2016, at 4:06 PM, William Herrin  wrote:
> ...

> 3. In it's 20-year history, ARIN has taken no actions whatsoever
> against legacy address holders inconsistent with legacy address blocks
> being common law property, save this: ARIN has not consistently
> updated the registry to reflect a new registrant for an address block
> unless the new registrant has signed a registration services
> agreement. Note that ARIN has updated the registrant for legacy
> registrations without service agreements, just not consistently.
> 
> ARIN asserts they've taken no action because community developed
> policy instructs them not to.  That is a half-truth. The whole truth
> is that ARIN has bent over backwards to avoid testing in court whether
> they have the lawful authority to enforce any policies against legacy
> address holders, even to the extent of bending or breaking their own
> policies when settling a court case. For example, Microsoft was
> permitted to register the Nortel addresses under the weaker Legacy
> Registration Services Agreement when the plain language of the
> then-extant policies required the use of the primary RSA.

Bill - You’re not quite correct with these statements, as there have been many 
court orders that require parties to enter into an RSA and comply with the IP 
registry policy – this is actually fairly common outcome of bankruptcy cases.  
(Refer to   
for just some examples.)  It is true that parties consent to these agreements,
as ARIN does not transfer the address block unless in compliance with policy.  

We have routinely argue that IP address blocks are not common law property
and prevail - we have never been ordered to make registry updates contrary 
to the community policy.

> 4. No statute, regulation or judicial finding either confirms or
> refutes ARIN's ability to lawfully refuse such updates. All relevant
> cases have either been settled prior to a judicial finding, or
> resulted in the registration's termination for other reasons
> (generally fraud of some sort).

Half-correct, in that these bankruptcy cases do result in judicial orders; 
however, the fact that the parties consent to the terms in order to proceed 
with the transfer is correct.  (Presumably they would do otherwise if they
had a valid basis for argument, but that hasn’t happened.)

> ...

> Pragmatically, if you want to buy an address block, the path of least
> resistance is: register with ARIN.
> 
> From a purist "what are my rights" standpoint: John Curran's comments
> notwithstanding, that's not so clear.

Also correct - hence why I suggested that “a broker (and/or informed legal 
counsel) 
can provide a view which is solely focused on the address holder’s interests”   

Thanks,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[William Herrin]

On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 6:18 PM, John Curran  wrote:
> The agency with actual authority in these matters (NTIA)
> subsequently issued a
> statement of the the US Government’s Internet Protocol
> Numbering Principles,
> which noted that “the American Registry for Internet Numbers
> (ARIN) is the RIR
> for Canada, many Caribbean and North Atlantic islands, and
> the United States
> and furthermore that the USG “participates in the development
> of and is supportive
> of the policies, processes, and procedures agreed upon by the
> Internet technical community through ARIN.”
> 
>
> i.e. ARIN continues to enforce the community-developed policies
> on all resources in the registry, and including legal undertakings
> where necessary to that end.

Howdy,

In the interest of making the question just about as clear as mud, I
would point out several things:

1. The NTIA does not claim to be a source of authority for the
management of IP addresses. The things written above are essentially
accurate but take care not to read more than was said.

2. No act of congress authorizes the NTIA nor any other branch of the
U.S. government to act as a source of authority with respect to IP
addresses. \

DARPA had clear authority to control what IP addresses were used on
the ARPAnet. NSF had clear authority to control what IP addresses were
used on the NSFnet backbone only. Neither claimed any authority over
the use of IP addresses on any other network.

3. In it's 20-year history, ARIN has taken no actions whatsoever
against legacy address holders inconsistent with legacy address blocks
being common law property, save this: ARIN has not consistently
updated the registry to reflect a new registrant for an address block
unless the new registrant has signed a registration services
agreement. Note that ARIN has updated the registrant for legacy
registrations without service agreements, just not consistently.

ARIN asserts they've taken no action because community developed
policy instructs them not to.  That is a half-truth. The whole truth
is that ARIN has bent over backwards to avoid testing in court whether
they have the lawful authority to enforce any policies against legacy
address holders, even to the extent of bending or breaking their own
policies when settling a court case. For example, Microsoft was
permitted to register the Nortel addresses under the weaker Legacy
Registration Services Agreement when the plain language of the
then-extant policies required the use of the primary RSA.


4. No statute, regulation or judicial finding either confirms or
refutes ARIN's ability to lawfully refuse such updates. All relevant
cases have either been settled prior to a judicial finding, or
resulted in the registration's termination for other reasons
(generally fraud of some sort).

5. Regardless of the content's of ARIN's registry, ARIN claims no
authority over whether and on whose behalf any specific IP addresses
are routed on the Internet, save for those addresses ARIN uses
directly for its own purposes.


Pragmatically, if you want to buy an address block, the path of least
resistance is: register with ARIN.

>From a purist "what are my rights" standpoint: John Curran's comments
notwithstanding, that's not so clear.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Owen DeLong]

That page is rather out of date as the RIPE policy it refers to was passed and 
then modified to (somewhat) restore needs basis.

Owen

> On Sep 30, 2016, at 10:47 AM, Enno Rey  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 10:26:36AM -0700, Seth Mattinen wrote:
>> On 9/30/16 09:49, Bryan Fields wrote:
>>> I'm trying to find a place on ARIN's website where this is addressed, but
>>> coming up short.  I'm not the seller or buyer in this, but basically someone
>>> has a legacy block allocated by Postel and wants to sell the block as it's 
>>> an
>>> owned asset.
>>> 
>>> What's the process to get ARIN to move the admin/ownership of this?  Do they
>>> only need to see a valid asset purchase agreement?  There is no legacy RSA 
>>> for
>>> this.
>> 
>> 
>> It'll have to go under RSA to stay with ARIN.
>> 
>> Or you can do a transfer to RIPE.
> 
> carefully note the "or".
> If you first move it under ARIN's jurisdiction (by signing an RSA) and *then* 
> transfer it to RIPE, it won't be "legacy" any more in the course of the 2nd 
> step and RIPE's 2-yr holding period comes into play (=> it can't be 
> transferred during that time).
> 
> Note also there's voices recommending not to sign an RSA for legacy space (in 
> certain situations, at least), see 
> http://ipv4marketgroup.com/dont-sign-an-rsa-during-your-82-ipv4-transfer/.
> 
> best
> 
> Enno
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> ~Seth
> 
> -- 
> Enno Rey
> 
> ERNW GmbH - Carl-Bosch-Str. 4 - 69115 Heidelberg - www.ernw.de
> Tel. +49 6221 480390 - Fax 6221 419008 - Cell +49 173 6745902 
> 
> Handelsregister Mannheim: HRB 337135
> Geschaeftsfuehrer: Enno Rey
> 
> ===
> Blog: www.insinuator.net || Conference: www.troopers.de
> Twitter: @Enno_Insinuator
> ===

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Jim Mercer]

On Mon, Oct 03, 2016 at 08:57:01AM -0700, Randy Bush wrote:
> fwiw, i did a transfer with the source in arin.  i found arin's folk
> very very helpful, and the process navigable, even for someone who is
> administratively impaired such as i.

yep, i agree.

i recently was the source of a pile of transfers from /24's to a /16,
both inside ARIN, as well as a couple out of ARIN into RIPE.

also did some with brokers (iptrading.com), as well as direct deals.

as long as all the documentation is straight, the process seems to move along
cleanly.

--jim

-- 
Jim Mercer Reptilian Research  j...@reptiles.org+1 416 410-5633

Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather
to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up,
totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
 -- Hunter S. Thompson

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[John Curran]

On Oct 3, 2016, at 11:49 AM, Randy Bush  wrote:

>> The agency with actual authority in these matters (NTIA)
> 
> inappropriate use of present tense

Yes, Randy - excellent point.   

I should have included "at the time" in that sentence...

Thanks!
/John

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Randy Bush]

fwiw, i did a transfer with the source in arin.  i found arin's folk
very very helpful, and the process navigable, even for someone who is
administratively impaired such as i.  ignore the political positioning,
plan ahead, be sure of all your options at each fork in the road, and
proceed with caution.  if this space is strange to you, recommendations
of using a broker or lawyer who has trod the path are apt.

randy

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Randy Bush]

> The agency with actual authority in these matters (NTIA)

inappropriate use of present tense

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[John Curran]

On 3 Oct 2016, at 3:57 AM, Martin Hannigan 
mailto:hanni...@gmail.com>> wrote:
...
Disclaimer: Get IPv6. Deploy it. Avoid cost. With that said…

Indeed: we are likely to have a rather convoluted market supply curve for
IPv4 blocks over the next decade, and those dependent on IPv4 as their
primary means of network growth will have unpredictable costs as a result.

The theme of the thread is that brokers can be useful. I'd argue they
are almost imperative for those wishing to be completely informed. I'm
not criticizing, but I'd be careful to understand that along with
using the STLS (as well as making transfers) comes additional
sacrifice of rights and assumption of liabilities.

Marty -

100% agreement…  while I am quite willing to explain to folks what I believe
makes sense for them regarding transfers, I ultimately must represent the best
options with respect to delivery of ARIN’s mission to the community.  A broker
(and/or informed legal counsel) can provide a view which is solely focused on
the address holder’s interests – while this may often lead to the same outcome,
that is not assured in all cases.

Thanks,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Martin Hannigan]

On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 10:56 PM, John Curran  wrote:
> On 30 Sep 2016, at 12:49 PM, Bryan Fields  wrote:
>>

[ clip ]

>
>> I'm thinking of referring both parties to an experienced broker as well.
>
> That certainly works - there is a list of several brokers available here
> 
> and many of them are very experienced in facilitating transfers under
> a wide variety of circumstances.

Morning NANOG'ers;

Disclaimer: Get IPv6. Deploy it. Avoid cost. With that said...

The theme of the thread is that brokers can be useful. I'd argue they
are almost imperative for those wishing to be completely informed. I'm
not criticizing, but I'd be careful to understand that along with
using the STLS (as well as making transfers) comes additional
sacrifice of rights and assumption of liabilities.

  https://www.arin.net/resources/transfer_listing/tos.pdf

That list also missing at least one significant company:

 ADDREX http://www.addrex.net/ -

My personal list of go-to brokers is for questions like asset
disposition, acquisition, transfers and the conversation above
(alphabetically):

Addrex
Hilco
IP Trading

Hope this is helpful.

YMMV, and best,

-M<

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[John Curran]

On 30 Sep 2016, at 1:34 PM, Bryan Fields  wrote:
> 
> On 9/30/16 1:22 PM, William Herrin wrote:
>> Note that you can't sell the block as an "owned asset" and have ARIN
>> recognize the change. ARIN does not recognize ownership of IP address
>> blocks, they only recognize registration and authorized agents.
> 
> This would seem to be in violation of what the NSF has said about this space.
> I thought ARIN was slapped hard once before about this very thing?

NSF’s Chief Counsel provided his views on the matter, but had to subsequently
clarify that his views were based on NSF’s historic role and noted that he did 
not
speak for the USG on such matters (as they were now properly within the remit
of the US Department of Commerce/NTIA…  oops!) - 


The agency with actual authority in these matters (NTIA) subsequently issued a 
statement of the the US Government’s Internet Protocol Numbering Principles, 
which noted that “the American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) is the RIR
for Canada, many Caribbean and North Atlantic islands, and the United States 
and furthermore that the USG “participates in the development of and is 
supportive 
of the policies, processes, and procedures agreed upon by the Internet 
technical 
community through ARIN.” 


i.e. ARIN continues to enforce the community-developed policies on all resources
in the registry, and including legal undertakings where necessary to that end. 

FYI,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

p.s. Note that all organizations may use ARIN Online to update their ARIN IP 
number 
   resource records. Organizations that received number resources directly 
from 
   ARIN have ARIN Online access via their Registration Services Agreement. 
   For organizations that received resources before ARIN’s formation in 
December 
   1997 (i.e. “Legacy Resource Holders”), ARIN has been providing, without 
any 
   fee or registration services agreement, access to ARIN Online as well as 
the 
   basic IP registration services in place at the time of ARIN’s formation; 
this does
   include the ability to submit tickets to transfer an IP address block to 
another party.

   Legacy Resource Holder organizations that wish to receive these basic 
registration 
   services under a formal agreement, or wish to utilize additional 
services (such as 
   resource certification, i.e. RPKI), and/or desire a written statement of 
their rights to 
   their IP number resources must enter into a Registration Services 
Agreement.

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[John Curran]

On 30 Sep 2016, at 1:42 PM, Jim Mercer  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 01:22:19PM -0400, William Herrin wrote:
>> 1. Buyer gets approved by ARIN for a specified transfer in the amount
>> to be purchased. Signs RSA.
>> 2. Legacy registrant (seller) signs the LRSA, proves identity and
>> authority to ARIN, places legacy block under the LRSA.
> 
> i don't recall having to sign an LRSA, but they certainly do need proof that
> you are the entity that holds the block.

That’s correct Jim. 

>> 3. Buyer requests specified transfer from ARIN, seller authorizes it.
>> 4. ARIN transfers registration to buyer, now under the RSA.
> 
> if you are a legacy holder, and you want a dead simple way to sell off your
> rights to blocks, register for the STLS, and get your blocks added to the
> list.
> https://www.arin.net/public/secure/downloads/index.xhtml
> (at the bottom)
> 
> this is also a good place to go if you want to buy rights to a block.
> 
> you can also solicit offers to buy from anyone on the list.

Also correct - ARIN runs the Specified Transfer Listing Service (STLS) so
that parties that wish to be vetted by ARIN may do so in advance, and also
optionally be listed as “interested in offers” from others using the STLS 
service.
Also, potential recipients may have their IP address need verified in advance,
therefore making them a qualified recipient in the ARIN region.  It’s completely
optional, but available for those who wish to validate their half of a transfer
(whether as a source or recipient) in advance. 

> works well, and less dodgy-ness, since everyone on the list has been
> vetted (to some degree) by ARIN.

I’m glad you like the STLS service; it does work well for straightforward 
transfers among parties.  There are some cases (complex corporate 
changes, long absent or incorrect registration information, etc.) where
parties may find the support and guidance of one of the brokers helpful;
it doesn’t matter to ARIN either way nor does it change the criteria that
we apply - all transfers follow the same policy.

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[John Curran]

On 30 Sep 2016, at 1:47 PM, Enno Rey  wrote:
> ...
> Note also there's voices recommending not to sign an RSA for legacy space (in 
> certain situations, at least), see 
> http://ipv4marketgroup.com/dont-sign-an-rsa-during-your-82-ipv4-transfer/.


Probably best to talk to a variety of IP brokers (including the one
publishing the above blog) for more current information, as this 
has been a fairly rapidly changing area and the referenced blog
contains both inaccuracies and statements that lack context. 

For example, there is a suggestion not to undertake a “NRPM 
8.2 Merger and Acquisition IPV4 transfer” due to the need to 
sign an RSA in the process.  The advice may be applicable to 
some who are adverse to the RSA, but is specifically about only
one type of transfer, i.e. transfer via merger and acquisition, not
an specified IP address block sale as most people consider…

Another example is the assertion that "ARIN says it will then not 
allow transfers from ARIN to RIPE, once inter-RIR transfers are 
allowed by RIPE, because there is no “like” needs based policy.”
While that might have been correct at one point in time, RIPE 
did adopt a rather generous needs-based policy that is indeed
compatible with ARIN’s inter-RIR transfer policy, and we’ve done
many transfers to the RIPE region since that time.

The combination of inaccuracies and outdated information dilute
the value of historical blog posts, so caveat emptor when revisiting
such… 

FYI,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[John Curran]

On 30 Sep 2016, at 12:49 PM, Bryan Fields  wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to find a place on ARIN's website where this is addressed, but
> coming up short.  I'm not the seller or buyer in this, but basically someone
> has a legacy block allocated by Postel and wants to sell the block as it's an
> owned asset.
> 
> What's the process to get ARIN to move the admin/ownership of this?  Do they
> only need to see a valid asset purchase agreement?  There is no legacy RSA for
> this.

Bryan - 

It is not required (but if they were presently under LRSA, then the transfer 
would 
indeed be faster since the organization and IP address block would not have to 
be revalidated…)

> I'm thinking of referring both parties to an experienced broker as well.

That certainly works - there is a list of several brokers available here 

and many of them are very experienced in facilitating transfers under
a wide variety of circumstances. 

> Does anyone have current process experience with this?

Yes, I seem to have some experience with these processes… 

The legacy resource holder has to be validated by ARIN.  This can be
accomplished by simply making sure that the seller is a point-of-contact 
on the organization which hold rights to the IP address block (and is 
smart thing to do in any case, since they can then update the contacts, 
correct reverse DNS servers, etc.) 

You can have the source (i.e. the legacy resource holder) contact ARIN’s
hostmaster (Hostmaster Arin ), or have them call us
Monday through Friday, 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM ET, Phone: +1.703.227.0660
and we’ll walk them through the organization recovery process. 

Once the legacy holder has control of the organization and IP address block,
they can submit a transfer ticket at any time.  ARIN will seek documentation
behind the transfer, and will confirm that the recipient is valid.  For a 
recipient
in another region, we seek concurrence from the serving RIR that the recipient
is valid. 

If you need any additional assistance, feel free to reach out to myself or 
the ARIN registration services helpdesk.

Thanks,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

p.s. Apologies for the delay in getting you this response - it has been a bit 
hectic 
   these last 48 hours... 

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Matthew Kaufman]

But only the recipient must put them under an RSA in order to have them
registered. The source need not have an RSA or LRSA for their legacy
blocks, at least as I understand it.

I'd also suggest that having a broker is useful, because the few well-known
ones that exist are well-versed in the process by now, for all types of
sources and destinations.

Matthew Kaufman

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 12:08 PM William Herrin  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 1:34 PM, Bryan Fields 
> wrote:
> > On 9/30/16 1:22 PM, William Herrin wrote:
> >> Note that you can't sell the block as an "owned asset" and have ARIN
> >> recognize the change. ARIN does not recognize ownership of IP address
> >> blocks, they only recognize registration and authorized agents.
> >
> > This would seem to be in violation of what the NSF has said about this
> space.
> > I thought ARIN was slapped hard once before about this very thing?
>
> To the best of my knowledge, that's not the case. Every relevant court
> case has ended one of two ways:
>
> 1. The addresses were revoked after the POC was (correctly) determined
> not currently represent the (defunct) registrant.
> 2. The registrant consented to place the addresses under an ARIN RSA
> without a judicial ruling. (e.g. Microsoft/Nortel)
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
>
> --
> William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
> Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 
>

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[William Herrin]

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 1:34 PM, Bryan Fields  wrote:
> On 9/30/16 1:22 PM, William Herrin wrote:
>> Note that you can't sell the block as an "owned asset" and have ARIN
>> recognize the change. ARIN does not recognize ownership of IP address
>> blocks, they only recognize registration and authorized agents.
>
> This would seem to be in violation of what the NSF has said about this space.
> I thought ARIN was slapped hard once before about this very thing?

To the best of my knowledge, that's not the case. Every relevant court
case has ended one of two ways:

1. The addresses were revoked after the POC was (correctly) determined
not currently represent the (defunct) registrant.
2. The registrant consented to place the addresses under an ARIN RSA
without a judicial ruling. (e.g. Microsoft/Nortel)

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[William Herrin]

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Enno Rey  wrote:
> Note also there's voices recommending not to sign an RSA for legacy space (in 
> certain situations, at least), see 
> http://ipv4marketgroup.com/dont-sign-an-rsa-during-your-82-ipv4-transfer/.

Hi Enno,

The article says:

"Never sign an RSA as part of bringing your registry entry up to date,
unless you are in the process of a transfer for an IPv4 sale"

I agree with that statement. But, the situation here *IS* a transfer
for an IPv4 sale. If you want to do the transfer, the originating
registration has to be under a registration services agreement (RSA).
As a legacy registrant, the LRSA is slightly more advantageous than
the regular RSA.

If the legacy registrant is actually in Europe, you might get away
with bypassing ARIN. I wouldn't try it if they aren't.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Enno Rey]

Hi,

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 10:26:36AM -0700, Seth Mattinen wrote:
> On 9/30/16 09:49, Bryan Fields wrote:
> > I'm trying to find a place on ARIN's website where this is addressed, but
> > coming up short.  I'm not the seller or buyer in this, but basically someone
> > has a legacy block allocated by Postel and wants to sell the block as it's 
> > an
> > owned asset.
> >
> > What's the process to get ARIN to move the admin/ownership of this?  Do they
> > only need to see a valid asset purchase agreement?  There is no legacy RSA 
> > for
> > this.
> 
> 
> It'll have to go under RSA to stay with ARIN.
> 
> Or you can do a transfer to RIPE.

carefully note the "or".
If you first move it under ARIN's jurisdiction (by signing an RSA) and *then* 
transfer it to RIPE, it won't be "legacy" any more in the course of the 2nd 
step and RIPE's 2-yr holding period comes into play (=> it can't be transferred 
during that time).

Note also there's voices recommending not to sign an RSA for legacy space (in 
certain situations, at least), see 
http://ipv4marketgroup.com/dont-sign-an-rsa-during-your-82-ipv4-transfer/.

best

Enno








> 
> ~Seth

-- 
Enno Rey

ERNW GmbH - Carl-Bosch-Str. 4 - 69115 Heidelberg - www.ernw.de
Tel. +49 6221 480390 - Fax 6221 419008 - Cell +49 173 6745902 

Handelsregister Mannheim: HRB 337135
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Enno Rey

===
Blog: www.insinuator.net || Conference: www.troopers.de
Twitter: @Enno_Insinuator
===

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Jim Mercer]

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 01:22:19PM -0400, William Herrin wrote:
> 1. Buyer gets approved by ARIN for a specified transfer in the amount
> to be purchased. Signs RSA.
> 2. Legacy registrant (seller) signs the LRSA, proves identity and
> authority to ARIN, places legacy block under the LRSA.

i don't recall having to sign an LRSA, but they certainly do need proof that
you are the entity that holds the block.

> 3. Buyer requests specified transfer from ARIN, seller authorizes it.
> 4. ARIN transfers registration to buyer, now under the RSA.

if you are a legacy holder, and you want a dead simple way to sell off your
rights to blocks, register for the STLS, and get your blocks added to the
list.
https://www.arin.net/public/secure/downloads/index.xhtml
(at the bottom)

this is also a good place to go if you want to buy rights to a block.

you can also solicit offers to buy from anyone on the list.

works well, and less dodgy-ness, since everyone on the list has been
vetted (to some degree) by ARIN.

--jim


-- 
Jim Mercer Reptilian Research  j...@reptiles.org+1 416 410-5633

Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather
to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up,
totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
 -- Hunter S. Thompson

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Bryan Fields]

On 9/30/16 1:22 PM, William Herrin wrote:
> Note that you can't sell the block as an "owned asset" and have ARIN
> recognize the change. ARIN does not recognize ownership of IP address
> blocks, they only recognize registration and authorized agents.

This would seem to be in violation of what the NSF has said about this space.
I thought ARIN was slapped hard once before about this very thing?

Thanks,
-- 
Bryan Fields

727-409-1194 - Voice
http://bryanfields.net

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Seth Mattinen]

On 9/30/16 09:49, Bryan Fields wrote:

I'm trying to find a place on ARIN's website where this is addressed, but
coming up short.  I'm not the seller or buyer in this, but basically someone
has a legacy block allocated by Postel and wants to sell the block as it's an
owned asset.

What's the process to get ARIN to move the admin/ownership of this?  Do they
only need to see a valid asset purchase agreement?  There is no legacy RSA for
this.



It'll have to go under RSA to stay with ARIN.

Or you can do a transfer to RIPE.

~Seth

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[William Herrin]

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Bryan Fields  wrote:
> I'm trying to find a place on ARIN's website where this is addressed, but
> coming up short.  I'm not the seller or buyer in this, but basically someone
> has a legacy block allocated by Postel and wants to sell the block as it's an
> owned asset.
>
> What's the process to get ARIN to move the admin/ownership of this?

Hi Bryan,

If this is entirely within the ARIN region, the process is this:

1. Buyer gets approved by ARIN for a specified transfer in the amount
to be purchased. Signs RSA.
2. Legacy registrant (seller) signs the LRSA, proves identity and
authority to ARIN, places legacy block under the LRSA.
3. Buyer requests specified transfer from ARIN, seller authorizes it.
4. ARIN transfers registration to buyer, now under the RSA.


Note that you can't sell the block as an "owned asset" and have ARIN
recognize the change. ARIN does not recognize ownership of IP address
blocks, they only recognize registration and authorized agents.

Note that if the legacy block's registration is defective, you're in
for some trouble. Defects include a defunct organization where an
individual who is not the registrant has maintained the block.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Jared Mauch]

I would review this:

https://ripe72.ripe.net/presentations/65-160524.ripe-transfer.pdf

- Jared

> On Sep 30, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Bryan Fields  wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to find a place on ARIN's website where this is addressed, but
> coming up short.  I'm not the seller or buyer in this, but basically someone
> has a legacy block allocated by Postel and wants to sell the block as it's an
> owned asset.
> 
> What's the process to get ARIN to move the admin/ownership of this?  Do they
> only need to see a valid asset purchase agreement?  There is no legacy RSA for
> this.
> 
> I'm thinking of referring both parties to an experienced broker as well.
> 
> Does anyone have current process experience with this?
> -- 
> Bryan Fields
> 
> 727-409-1194 - Voice
> http://bryanfields.net

ARIN legacy block transfer process

[Bryan Fields]

I'm trying to find a place on ARIN's website where this is addressed, but
coming up short.  I'm not the seller or buyer in this, but basically someone
has a legacy block allocated by Postel and wants to sell the block as it's an
owned asset.

What's the process to get ARIN to move the admin/ownership of this?  Do they
only need to see a valid asset purchase agreement?  There is no legacy RSA for
this.

I'm thinking of referring both parties to an experienced broker as well.

Does anyone have current process experience with this?
-- 
Bryan Fields

727-409-1194 - Voice
http://bryanfields.net