Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[John Curran]

On Jul 16, 2023, at 3:33 PM, Randy Bush  wrote:

… and see if we can round off the rough edges where they got caught.

To that end, the “IPv6 fee waiver” text on the fee schedule has been expanded 
to more fully
explain its operation.  From 
 –

*There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service 
category allowing for more IPv6 resources than normal while still remaining in 
the 3X-Small service category and paying only the 3X-Small service category 
fee. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 of 
total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category rather than being 
charged the 2X-Small service category fee. This waiver will expire 31 December 
2026.

The terminology “fee waiver” is acknowledged as less than ideal, but has been 
retained for
consistency as there’s extensive historical references to it in this manner – 
it is hoped that
the more extensive explanation will suffice to clarify any confusion in how it 
is actually handled.

Thanks,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Randy Bush]

> #define SOAPBOX
> 
> Please remember ARIN covers more than just the relatively prosperous
> United States.  There are places like Jamaica, which are also in the
> ARIN region, where the average annual income is $2,337.

indeed

i find this thread to be depressing.  the economics you mention, of
course.

but also folk being rude, judgemental, and blaming the user for being
confused by the complex and jargon-infested bureaucrazy we have created
in the rirs.

and yes, props to the rirs for trying to document rules and processes.
but that often seems to create even more documents.  and, of course, if
you have to deal with multiple rirs, expect no parallelism, similar
nomenclature, etc.

it is very easy for a new rir user to get confused by corner cases,
terminology, quirks of history, and the detritus of our amateur policy
wonkage.

give 'em a break.  and see if we can round off the rough edges where
they got caught.

randy

---

note that i use the first person plural

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Matthew Petach]

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 2:09 PM Darin Steffl 
wrote:

> This screams of entitlement. If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you
> probably shouldn't be starting a new business. Sorry
>

#define SOAPBOX

Darin,

Please remember ARIN covers more than just the relatively prosperous United
States.
There are places like Jamaica, which are also in the ARIN region, where the
average
annual income is $2,337.

Having to put aside 11% of your annual income for ARIN registry fees to
start a business
is a big decision.
I don't think you'd like it if we called you "entitled" for not wanting to
shell out 11% of your
annual income for ARIN fees to start a business.

While NANOG by name does narrow the focus to just "North America", we
should all remember
that even in North America, wealth is not distributed equally.  There are
communities that very
much need the economic development that new businesses can bring, where a
$250/year annual
fee represents a significant headwind.  Rather than pooh-pooh their
concerns, we should instead
strive to see the world through that entrepreneur's eyes, and address their
concerns, rather than
brush them aside.

 Thanks!

Matt

#undef SOAPBOX

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[William Herrin]

On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 8:57 PM Tom Beecher  wrote:
> There is no possible way that anyone should interpret
> the current wording of the asterisk'd text as ALL IPv6
> fees are waived until 2026. None. If that's your take
> away, I'm not sure what to say.

Hi Tom,

I think the point is that "waiver" is the wrong word. It's not a
waiver, it's a discount.

You go calling things waivers that aren't, someone's gonna miss the
asterisk and get rudely surprised.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Tom Beecher]

>
>
> The issue being a newcomer and not fully versed on the levels, I never
> made the connection of the /36 to the 2X-Small Category. A simple addition
> of adding in a reference to that category would make it a lot more clear..
>

The service levels are defined right there in the chart above the wording
on the fee waiver. What do you mean you 'weren't fully versed' on the
levels? They are right there!

Looking at the ARIN website and fee schedule, I see there is a blurb at the
> bottom of the RSP Categories and Fees about IPv6 fees being waived until
> December 31, 2026. My reaction was along the lines of this is great, it
> helps small companies and startups get IPv6 deployed and up and running in
> their environment.
>

There is no possible way that anyone should interpret the current wording
of the asterisk'd text as ALL IPv6 fees are waived until 2026. None. If
that's your take away, I'm not sure what to say.

As the blurb in the schedule mentions nothing about the 2X-Small Category
> and honestly, no fees are really waived.
>

I'm 100% with John here. You didn't read it. The chart shows you what a
2X-Small category is. Very straight forward.

Feedback that the text could be slightly more descriptive is perfectly
legitimate. Accusing ARIN of 'bait and switch' because you didn't RTFM is
not.


On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 2:18 PM Robert Webb  wrote:

> No, I didn't quit reading..
>
> The issue being a newcomer and not fully versed on the levels, I never
> made the connection of the /36 to the 2X-Small Category. A simple addition
> of adding in a reference to that category would make it a lot more clear..
>
> Something as simple as changing to the below, would have more easily
> triggered that connection.
>
> **There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small
> service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for
> up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category
> and not be charged at the 2X-Small fee schedule. This waiver will expire 31
> December 2026.*
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 1:57 PM Jon Lewis  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Jul 2023, Robert Webb wrote:
>>
>> > For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does
>> operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of
>> view and the wording being taken at
>> > face value.
>>
>> You just stopped reading after the part you liked :)
>>
>> "There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small
>> service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services
>> for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service
>> category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026."
>>
>> The "fee waiver" is that they're allowing a 3x-small org to grow into a
>> 2x-small org's worth of v6 space while staying at the 3x-small org annual
>> fee.
>>
>> Presumably, you could request a /40, and then request another (and
>> another...), and as long as you have a /36 or less worth of v6 space,
>> you'll still only owe $250/year for the IPv6 space until this "deal"
>> expires at the end of 2026.
>>
>> --
>>   Jon Lewis, MCP :)   |  I route
>>   StackPath, Sr. Neteng   |  therefore you are
>> _ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_
>>
>

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Grant Taylor via NANOG]

On 7/14/23 4:05 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:
This screams of entitlement. If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, 
you probably shouldn't be starting a new business. Sorry


Why do you assume that I was even thinking about cost.

I was talking purely about understanding and how it could go either way. 
 The cost is immaterial to my statement.




Grant. . . .

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Robert Webb]

Where did I EVER say I couldn't afford it and wasn't going to pay. Please
quit assuming!!

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 5:07 PM Darin Steffl 
wrote:

> This screams of entitlement. If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you
> probably shouldn't be starting a new business. Sorry
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 4:00 PM Grant Taylor via NANOG 
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/14/23 12:04 PM, Robert Webb wrote:
>> > For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does
>> > operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer
>> > point of view and the wording being taken at face value.
>> Drive by comment:
>>
>> I can see how someone not in the know -- like myself -- could mistake
>> this the way that Robert did.  I can also see how it might be taken
>> differently by those in the know.
>>
>> "There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small
>> service category."
>>
>> I can see that as both "(new) organizations (that aren't currently
>> registered) that are the size of a 3X-Small..." and "(existing 3X-Small)
>> organizations that are (already registered and) the size of a 3X-Small..."
>>
>> It seems somewhat unclear to me if it applies to new registrants or if
>> it's a perk for existing registrants to grow.
>>
>> Just my $0.02 worth as I drive by.
>>
>>
>>
>> Grant. . . .
>>
>
>
> --
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com
> 507-634-WiFi
> Like us on Facebook 
>

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Matt Erculiani]

> If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you probably shouldn't be
starting a new business.

That seems a little tone deaf and extremely insensitive to a lot of
non-profit organizations who fight for every penny they can.

-Matt

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 3:06 PM Darin Steffl 
wrote:

> This screams of entitlement. If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you
> probably shouldn't be starting a new business. Sorry
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 4:00 PM Grant Taylor via NANOG 
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/14/23 12:04 PM, Robert Webb wrote:
>> > For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does
>> > operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer
>> > point of view and the wording being taken at face value.
>> Drive by comment:
>>
>> I can see how someone not in the know -- like myself -- could mistake
>> this the way that Robert did.  I can also see how it might be taken
>> differently by those in the know.
>>
>> "There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small
>> service category."
>>
>> I can see that as both "(new) organizations (that aren't currently
>> registered) that are the size of a 3X-Small..." and "(existing 3X-Small)
>> organizations that are (already registered and) the size of a 3X-Small..."
>>
>> It seems somewhat unclear to me if it applies to new registrants or if
>> it's a perk for existing registrants to grow.
>>
>> Just my $0.02 worth as I drive by.
>>
>>
>>
>> Grant. . . .
>>
>
>
> --
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com
> 507-634-WiFi
> Like us on Facebook 
>


-- 
Matt Erculiani
ERCUL-ARIN

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Darin Steffl]

This screams of entitlement. If you can't afford $250 a year for ARIN, you
probably shouldn't be starting a new business. Sorry

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 4:00 PM Grant Taylor via NANOG 
wrote:

> On 7/14/23 12:04 PM, Robert Webb wrote:
> > For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does
> > operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer
> > point of view and the wording being taken at face value.
> Drive by comment:
>
> I can see how someone not in the know -- like myself -- could mistake
> this the way that Robert did.  I can also see how it might be taken
> differently by those in the know.
>
> "There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small
> service category."
>
> I can see that as both "(new) organizations (that aren't currently
> registered) that are the size of a 3X-Small..." and "(existing 3X-Small)
> organizations that are (already registered and) the size of a 3X-Small..."
>
> It seems somewhat unclear to me if it applies to new registrants or if
> it's a perk for existing registrants to grow.
>
> Just my $0.02 worth as I drive by.
>
>
>
> Grant. . . .
>


-- 
Darin Steffl
Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com
507-634-WiFi
Like us on Facebook 

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Grant Taylor via NANOG]

On 7/14/23 12:04 PM, Robert Webb wrote:
For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does 
operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer 
point of view and the wording being taken at face value.

Drive by comment:

I can see how someone not in the know -- like myself -- could mistake 
this the way that Robert did.  I can also see how it might be taken 
differently by those in the know.


"There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small 
service category."


I can see that as both "(new) organizations (that aren't currently 
registered) that are the size of a 3X-Small..." and "(existing 3X-Small) 
organizations that are (already registered and) the size of a 3X-Small..."


It seems somewhat unclear to me if it applies to new registrants or if 
it's a perk for existing registrants to grow.


Just my $0.02 worth as I drive by.



Grant. . . .

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[John Sweeting]

Robert, we will look to make the text more clear.

Thanks

John Sweeting, ARIN CCO

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 14, 2023, at 2:17 PM, Robert Webb  wrote:


No, I didn't quit reading..

The issue being a newcomer and not fully versed on the levels, I never made the 
connection of the /36 to the 2X-Small Category. A simple addition of adding in 
a reference to that category would make it a lot more clear..

Something as simple as changing to the below, would have more easily triggered 
that connection.

*There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small service 
category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for up to a /36 
of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category and not be 
charged at the 2X-Small fee schedule. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026.

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 1:57 PM Jon Lewis 
mailto:jle...@lewis.org>> wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2023, Robert Webb wrote:

> For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, 
> throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and 
> the wording being taken at
> face value.

You just stopped reading after the part you liked :)

"There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small
service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services
for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service
category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026."

The "fee waiver" is that they're allowing a 3x-small org to grow into a
2x-small org's worth of v6 space while staying at the 3x-small org annual
fee.

Presumably, you could request a /40, and then request another (and
another...), and as long as you have a /36 or less worth of v6 space,
you'll still only owe $250/year for the IPv6 space until this "deal"
expires at the end of 2026.

--
  Jon Lewis, MCP :)   |  I route
  StackPath, Sr. Neteng   |  therefore you are
_ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Robert Webb]

No, I didn't quit reading..

The issue being a newcomer and not fully versed on the levels, I never made
the connection of the /36 to the 2X-Small Category. A simple addition of
adding in a reference to that category would make it a lot more clear..

Something as simple as changing to the below, would have more easily
triggered that connection.

**There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small
service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services for
up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service category
and not be charged at the 2X-Small fee schedule. This waiver will expire 31
December 2026.*

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 1:57 PM Jon Lewis  wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Jul 2023, Robert Webb wrote:
>
> > For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does
> operate, throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of
> view and the wording being taken at
> > face value.
>
> You just stopped reading after the part you liked :)
>
> "There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small
> service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services
> for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service
> category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026."
>
> The "fee waiver" is that they're allowing a 3x-small org to grow into a
> 2x-small org's worth of v6 space while staying at the 3x-small org annual
> fee.
>
> Presumably, you could request a /40, and then request another (and
> another...), and as long as you have a /36 or less worth of v6 space,
> you'll still only owe $250/year for the IPv6 space until this "deal"
> expires at the end of 2026.
>
> --
>   Jon Lewis, MCP :)   |  I route
>   StackPath, Sr. Neteng   |  therefore you are
> _ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_
>

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Jon Lewis]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023, Robert Webb wrote:


For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate, 
throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and the 
wording being taken at
face value.


You just stopped reading after the part you liked :)

"There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 3X-Small 
service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive registry services 
for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in the 3X-Small service 
category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026."


The "fee waiver" is that they're allowing a 3x-small org to grow into a 
2x-small org's worth of v6 space while staying at the 3x-small org annual 
fee.


Presumably, you could request a /40, and then request another (and 
another...), and as long as you have a /36 or less worth of v6 space, 
you'll still only owe $250/year for the IPv6 space until this "deal" 
expires at the end of 2026.


--
 Jon Lewis, MCP :)   |  I route
 StackPath, Sr. Neteng   |  therefore you are
_ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Robert Webb]

For all of you who have historical knowledge of how ARIN has/does operate,
throw that out the window and look at it from a newcomer point of view and
the wording being taken at face value.

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 12:52 PM August Yang via NANOG 
wrote:

> > *There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the
> > 3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive
> > registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in
> > the 3X-Small service category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026.
> IMHO the wording here is clear.
>
> On 2023-07-14 12:37 p.m., Robert Webb wrote:
> > Sorry for the completely off topic rant here, but maybe it will garner
> > some attention from the ARIN folks.
> >
> > So I am attempting a small startup business and and initially building
> > out three sites and thought it would be good to register and upfront
> > get my own IPv6 space instead of leasing from some other party or have
> > to renumber as future things change
> >
> > Looking at the ARIN website and fee schedule, I see there is a blurb
> > at the bottom of the RSP Categories and Fees about IPv6 fees being
> > waived until December 31, 2026. My reaction was along the lines of
> > this is great, it helps small companies and startups get IPv6 deployed
> > and up and running in their environment.
> >
> > So I put in the request for a /44 initial request and provided all my
> > justifications and within a couple of days I got word that my request
> > was approved. Wonderful..
> >
> > Then I proceed to get a $250 invoice for my /44 under a 3X-Small
> > category! Huh??
> >
> > So I call in and am told the waiver is only for those in a 2X-Service
> > Category who want to obtain a 3X-Small Category subnet and that it
> > really isn't a fee waiver, but that the 2X-Small Category organization
> > will only be charged a 3X-Small fee of $250 and that the $500 fee.
> >
> > So ARIN, either quit the bait and switch, or fix the wording in the
> > Fee Schedule AND provide a link to the full text of the waiver. As the
> > blurb in the schedule mentions nothing about the 2X-Small Category and
> > honestly, no fees are really waived.
> >
> > Again, apologies for the rant, but just needed to get it out there,
> > the frustration of a small start up business owner..
> --
> Best regards
> August Yang
>

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Rishi Panthee via NANOG]

Hello,

I think you misread the ARIN fee waiver guideline, they basically state that 
you can get up to a /36 of IPv6 space, 2x-Small, while paying for 3X-Small 
pricing.


Rishi Panthee


On Jul 14, 2023, at 11:37 AM, Robert Webb  wrote:

Sorry for the completely off topic rant here, but maybe it will garner some 
attention from the ARIN folks.

So I am attempting a small startup business and and initially building out 
three sites and thought it would be good to register and upfront get my own 
IPv6 space instead of leasing from some other party or have to renumber as 
future things change

Looking at the ARIN website and fee schedule, I see there is a blurb at the 
bottom of the RSP Categories and Fees about IPv6 fees being waived until 
December 31, 2026. My reaction was along the lines of this is great, it helps 
small companies and startups get IPv6 deployed and up and running in their 
environment.

So I put in the request for a /44 initial request and provided all my 
justifications and within a couple of days I got word that my request was 
approved. Wonderful..

Then I proceed to get a $250 invoice for my /44 under a 3X-Small category! Huh??

So I call in and am told the waiver is only for those in a 2X-Service Category 
who want to obtain a 3X-Small Category subnet and that it really isn't a fee 
waiver, but that the 2X-Small Category organization will only be charged a 
3X-Small fee of $250 and that the $500 fee.

So ARIN, either quit the bait and switch, or fix the wording in the Fee 
Schedule AND provide a link to the full text of the waiver. As the blurb in the 
schedule mentions nothing about the 2X-Small Category and honestly, no fees are 
really waived.

Again, apologies for the rant, but just needed to get it out there, the 
frustration of a small start up business owner..

Re: My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[August Yang via NANOG]

*There is a temporary IPv6 fee waiver for organizations in the 
3X-Small service category. A 3X-Small organization may receive 
registry services for up to a /36 of total IPv6 space and remain in 
the 3X-Small service category. This waiver will expire 31 December 2026.

IMHO the wording here is clear.

On 2023-07-14 12:37 p.m., Robert Webb wrote:
Sorry for the completely off topic rant here, but maybe it will garner 
some attention from the ARIN folks.


So I am attempting a small startup business and and initially building 
out three sites and thought it would be good to register and upfront 
get my own IPv6 space instead of leasing from some other party or have 
to renumber as future things change


Looking at the ARIN website and fee schedule, I see there is a blurb 
at the bottom of the RSP Categories and Fees about IPv6 fees being 
waived until December 31, 2026. My reaction was along the lines of 
this is great, it helps small companies and startups get IPv6 deployed 
and up and running in their environment.


So I put in the request for a /44 initial request and provided all my 
justifications and within a couple of days I got word that my request 
was approved. Wonderful..


Then I proceed to get a $250 invoice for my /44 under a 3X-Small 
category! Huh??


So I call in and am told the waiver is only for those in a 2X-Service 
Category who want to obtain a 3X-Small Category subnet and that it 
really isn't a fee waiver, but that the 2X-Small Category organization 
will only be charged a 3X-Small fee of $250 and that the $500 fee.


So ARIN, either quit the bait and switch, or fix the wording in the 
Fee Schedule AND provide a link to the full text of the waiver. As the 
blurb in the schedule mentions nothing about the 2X-Small Category and 
honestly, no fees are really waived.


Again, apologies for the rant, but just needed to get it out there, 
the frustration of a small start up business owner..

--
Best regards
August Yang


OpenPGP_0x9C1B40F09053AE75.asc
Description: OpenPGP public key


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

My first ARIN Experience but probably not the last, unfortunately..

[Robert Webb]

Sorry for the completely off topic rant here, but maybe it will garner some
attention from the ARIN folks.

So I am attempting a small startup business and and initially building out
three sites and thought it would be good to register and upfront get my own
IPv6 space instead of leasing from some other party or have to renumber as
future things change

Looking at the ARIN website and fee schedule, I see there is a blurb at the
bottom of the RSP Categories and Fees about IPv6 fees being waived until
December 31, 2026. My reaction was along the lines of this is great, it
helps small companies and startups get IPv6 deployed and up and running in
their environment.

So I put in the request for a /44 initial request and provided all my
justifications and within a couple of days I got word that my request was
approved. Wonderful..

Then I proceed to get a $250 invoice for my /44 under a 3X-Small category!
Huh??

So I call in and am told the waiver is only for those in a 2X-Service
Category who want to obtain a 3X-Small Category subnet and that it really
isn't a fee waiver, but that the 2X-Small Category organization will only
be charged a 3X-Small fee of $250 and that the $500 fee.

So ARIN, either quit the bait and switch, or fix the wording in the Fee
Schedule AND provide a link to the full text of the waiver. As the blurb in
the schedule mentions nothing about the 2X-Small Category and honestly, no
fees are really waived.

Again, apologies for the rant, but just needed to get it out there, the
frustration of a small start up business owner..