Re: The real issue
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: > Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from people who have > long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it, prepared to > start filing civil suits against people who were assigned /24's (and paid > for them) due to inaccurate declaration? out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context?
Re: The real issue
It's means one of two things: 1) Recoup the unused space for paid reallocation or 2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from people who have long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it, prepared to start filing civil suits against people who were assigned /24's (and paid for them) due to inaccurate declaration? out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context?
Re: The real issue
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: > It's means one of two things: > sure, but 'how' exactly? > 1) Recoup the unused space for paid reallocation > or arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a method to affect routability of a network. > 2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space > ... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ... that's a lengthy process and expensive. -Chris > > On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: >>> >>> Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from people who >>> have >>> long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it, prepared to >>> start filing civil suits against people who were assigned /24's (and paid >>> for them) due to inaccurate declaration? >> >> out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context? > >
Re: The real issue
On Apr 21, 2009 19:46 Shane Ronan wrote: > 2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space I'm curious what the going rate on a /24 is? -bb
Re: The real issue
Very simple, just do it. On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: It's means one of two things: sure, but 'how' exactly? 1) Recoup the unused space for paid reallocation or arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a method to affect routability of a network. 2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space ... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ... that's a lengthy process and expensive. -Chris On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from people who have long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it, prepared to start filing civil suits against people who were assigned /24's (and paid for them) due to inaccurate declaration? out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context?
Re: The real issue
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: > Very simple, just do it. > This isn't nike... I'm sorry for being obtuse, but they (arin) can't really do anything. I suspect that if they had to prosecute all folks in violation of the RSA they would have financial issues... and it wouldn't really solve anything long term anyway. In short, ARIN can't affect routability ARIN can't effectively deal with the contract issues in a timely fashion So.. what are they going to 'just do'? -Chris > On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: >>> >>> It's means one of two things: >>> >> >> sure, but 'how' exactly? >> >>> 1) Recoup the unused space for paid reallocation >>> or >> >> arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a >> method to affect routability of a network. >> >>> 2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space >>> >> >> ... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support >> that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For >> allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ... >> that's a lengthy process and expensive. >> >> -Chris >> >>> >>> On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: > > Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from people who > have > long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it, prepared > to > start filing civil suits against people who were assigned /24's (and > paid > for them) due to inaccurate declaration? out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context? >>> >>> >> >> > >
Re: The real issue
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Christopher Morrow wrote: arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a method to affect routability of a network. Sure they do. They can and have put pressure on networks to stop advertisements from being propagated. What they can actually do if their bluff is called, I have no idea, but I've seen their influence work. 2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space ... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ... that's a lengthy process and expensive. Having looked back at old copies of the domain-template.txt and internet-number-template.txt, I really don't see why one group was grandfathered in with an indefinite free ride and the other was not at all. -- Jon Lewis | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net| _ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_
Re: The real issue
Shane Ronan wrote: Very simple, just do it. Ha! We have some legacy IP space in continous use here at ASN13345 for over 12 years now that was recently "revoked" for a few weeks (only to be later restored via a transfer once the exact definition of "ownership" in a member-owned cooperative was hammered out). Guess what stopped working in the interim? Well the whois records were gone and our abuse desk probably had a tiny decrease in complaints as a result. In some quarters that might be seen as a blessing, but we view abuse reports as cries for help from infected hosts that will become larger service outages if not addressed. Also the in-addr services went away, affecting about a half dozen mail servers out of several thousand hosts in the "revoked" delegation. We did not receive one single call or complaint about connectivity in that duration apart from the in-addr loss, and those customers were offered smart host use or replacement IPs for the duration. The ones who chose the smart host continued to use the "revoked" IP space without problem after that. The Internet's greatest strength and greatest weakness is the lack of a central authority who can "just do it". I for one am happy it is that way. It's part of what makes us an *autonomous* system, sovereign of our own little kingdom. Mike
RE: The real issue
However if someone at ARIN had put in a call to say the top 10 transit providers and asked them to black-hole this space (which they might do) then where would you have been? -Original Message- From: Mike Lewinski [mailto:m...@rockynet.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:54 PM To: nanog list Subject: Re: The real issue Shane Ronan wrote: > Very simple, just do it. Ha! We have some legacy IP space in continous use here at ASN13345 for over 12 years now that was recently "revoked" for a few weeks (only to be later restored via a transfer once the exact definition of "ownership" in a member-owned cooperative was hammered out). Guess what stopped working in the interim? Well the whois records were gone and our abuse desk probably had a tiny decrease in complaints as a result. In some quarters that might be seen as a blessing, but we view abuse reports as cries for help from infected hosts that will become larger service outages if not addressed. Also the in-addr services went away, affecting about a half dozen mail servers out of several thousand hosts in the "revoked" delegation. We did not receive one single call or complaint about connectivity in that duration apart from the in-addr loss, and those customers were offered smart host use or replacement IPs for the duration. The ones who chose the smart host continued to use the "revoked" IP space without problem after that. The Internet's greatest strength and greatest weakness is the lack of a central authority who can "just do it". I for one am happy it is that way. It's part of what makes us an *autonomous* system, sovereign of our own little kingdom. Mike
RE: The real issue
No, but they can sure send them a bill and then go after them for collections when they don't pay it. -Original Message- From: christopher.mor...@gmail.com [mailto:christopher.mor...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Morrow Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:34 PM To: Shane Ronan Cc: nanog list Subject: Re: The real issue On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: > Very simple, just do it. > This isn't nike... I'm sorry for being obtuse, but they (arin) can't really do anything. I suspect that if they had to prosecute all folks in violation of the RSA they would have financial issues... and it wouldn't really solve anything long term anyway. In short, ARIN can't affect routability ARIN can't effectively deal with the contract issues in a timely fashion So.. what are they going to 'just do'? -Chris > On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: >>> >>> It's means one of two things: >>> >> >> sure, but 'how' exactly? >> >>> 1) Recoup the unused space for paid reallocation >>> or >> >> arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a >> method to affect routability of a network. >> >>> 2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space >>> >> >> ... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support >> that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For >> allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ... >> that's a lengthy process and expensive. >> >> -Chris >> >>> >>> On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: >>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from people who >>>>> have >>>>> long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it, prepared >>>>> to >>>>> start filing civil suits against people who were assigned /24's (and >>>>> paid >>>>> for them) due to inaccurate declaration? >>>> >>>> out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context? >>> >>> >> >> > >
RE: The real issue
On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Shane Ronan wrote: However if someone at ARIN had put in a call to say the top 10 transit providers and asked them to black-hole this space (which they might do) then where would you have been? You say that as if it hasn't happened. -- Jon Lewis | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net| _ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_
Re: The real issue
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Jon Lewis wrote: > On Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Christopher Morrow wrote: > >> arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a >> method to affect routability of a network. > > Sure they do. They can and have put pressure on networks to stop > advertisements from being propagated. What they can actually do if their > bluff is called, I have no idea, but I've seen their influence work. > Right: "Jon, hey this is hostmaster-at-arin-guy, your customer Jim is announcing a prefix that we think isn't his, anymore. Could you block that?" you: "Well, they do pay me, they are current, why do you think something bad is going on here?" you: "Ok, since you are arin, and I'm a good guy, I'll call the customer, get their side and give them some time to migrate off/repair their ARIN issues, end-of-week ok?" 1) assuming Jon is a 'good guy' (jon-lewis is, or has seemingly always been) 2) assuming this isn't a blatant VMX-networks-type hijack 3) assuming ARIN has a reason to pull whois content I've been on the receiving end of that sort of call, and I've pulled ASN's or ip-announcements back... but I've also seen customers get into tangles for non-payment when bills went to someone who didn't understand what ARIN was :( In the end, ARIN can't do anything if the 'customer' or 'ISP' in this case decides to not listen to ARIN. >>> 2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space >> >> ... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support >> that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For >> allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ... >> that's a lengthy process and expensive. > > Having looked back at old copies of the domain-template.txt and > internet-number-template.txt, I really don't see why one group was > grandfathered in with an indefinite free ride and the other was not at all. mysteries... I don't claim to understand that either... someone, I suppose, long ago thought that this interwebz thing wasn't going to take off? (or that 4b numbers really was enough...) -Chris
Re: The real issue
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:04 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: > However if someone at ARIN had put in a call to say the top 10 transit > providers and asked them to black-hole this space (which they might do) > then where would you have been? > 'not my customer, not my issue, you REALLY need to talk to ASX who's their provider...' -Chris > -Original Message- > From: Mike Lewinski [mailto:m...@rockynet.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:54 PM > To: nanog list > Subject: Re: The real issue > > Shane Ronan wrote: >> Very simple, just do it. > > Ha! We have some legacy IP space in continous use here at ASN13345 for > over 12 years now that was recently "revoked" for a few weeks (only to > be later restored via a transfer once the exact definition of > "ownership" in a member-owned cooperative was hammered out). > > Guess what stopped working in the interim? Well the whois records were > gone and our abuse desk probably had a tiny decrease in complaints as a > result. In some quarters that might be seen as a blessing, but we view > abuse reports as cries for help from infected hosts that will become > larger service outages if not addressed. > > Also the in-addr services went away, affecting about a half dozen mail > servers out of several thousand hosts in the "revoked" delegation. We > did not receive one single call or complaint about connectivity in that > duration apart from the in-addr loss, and those customers were offered > smart host use or replacement IPs for the duration. The ones who chose > the smart host continued to use the "revoked" IP space without problem > after that. > > The Internet's greatest strength and greatest weakness is the lack of a > central authority who can "just do it". I for one am happy it is that > way. It's part of what makes us an *autonomous* system, sovereign of our > > own little kingdom. > > Mike > > >
Re: The real issue
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:05 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: > No, but they can sure send them a bill and then go after them for > collections when they don't pay it. > where do you send the bill? For some even large organizations I've seen bills get shuffled to random places that didn't deal with 'bills' and then get dropped. Not everyone at these places understands what an 'ip address' or 'number resource' or 'ARIN' is... or what those things mean to the 'business'. This really isn't a simple thing, it's really not something that ARIN can go cowboy up and fix. (not for lack of trying over the years of course) -Chris > > -Original Message- > From: christopher.mor...@gmail.com [mailto:christopher.mor...@gmail.com] > On Behalf Of Christopher Morrow > Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:34 PM > To: Shane Ronan > Cc: nanog list > Subject: Re: The real issue > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: >> Very simple, just do it. >> > > This isn't nike... > > I'm sorry for being obtuse, but they (arin) can't really do anything. > I suspect that if they had to prosecute all folks in violation of the > RSA they would have financial issues... and it wouldn't really solve > anything long term anyway. > > In short, ARIN can't affect routability > ARIN can't effectively deal with the contract issues in a > timely fashion > > So.. what are they going to 'just do'? > > -Chris > >> On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Shane Ronan > wrote: >>>> >>>> It's means one of two things: >>>> >>> >>> sure, but 'how' exactly? >>> >>>> 1) Recoup the unused space for paid reallocation >>>> or >>> >>> arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a >>> method to affect routability of a network. >>> >>>> 2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space >>>> >>> >>> ... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support >>> that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For >>> allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ... >>> that's a lengthy process and expensive. >>> >>> -Chris >>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Shane Ronan > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from > people who >>>>>> have >>>>>> long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it, > prepared >>>>>> to >>>>>> start filing civil suits against people who were assigned /24's > (and >>>>>> paid >>>>>> for them) due to inaccurate declaration? >>>>> >>>>> out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context? >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > >
Re: The real issue
Shane Ronan wrote: No, but they can sure send them a bill and then go after them for collections when they don't pay it. 1) I don't care to pay higher member fees because ARIN has been going to court left and right. 2) ARIN membership hasn't voted for such, because they probably didn't want to pay higher fees. 3) Some of the "legacy" networks are the richest and meanest networks on the planet, and you can't go after the little guys without taking the big guys to court; you'll lose. 4) Join the ARIN mailing list for the lengthy boring discussion, and read their long archives that probably have touched all these points and actually are on topic. 5) If ARIN convinces people to blackhole your routes due to non-payment, this might be a list to discuss it on; though I doubt it. -Jack
RE: The real issue
And exactly how are you determining it is 'unused'? Not announced to the internet? (which means virtually nothing as far as 'use' status of an IP block) For pete sake, the time has come to resolve the issues that prevent widespread adoption of IPv6: - resolve RIR IPv6 allocation hassles for requesting end-user orgs - insist on IPv6-capable hardware/services/engineering staff when getting new hardware/services/staff - work toward retirement of IPv6-incapable hardware/software - train staff - start PoCs for IPv6 services (ip transit, DNS, etc) - start requiring IPv6 capability from ISPs which are slow to move (Vendor A, V, S, etc) Many large organizations use public IP space internally and do not announce it to the Internet. Some SPs use public IP space on private MPLS VPN networks to address links to customers to ensure non-conflicting addresses are used. Some companies run large extranets to connect to customers and partners. Many of these use public IP space to ensure services exposed to customers over these extranets never conflict with IP space used by customers. MOVE ON. Playing net cop does not solve the issue, merely forestalls it. -Original Message- From: Shane Ronan [mailto:sro...@fattoc.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:27 PM To: Christopher Morrow Cc: nanog list Subject: Re: The real issue Very simple, just do it. On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Shane Ronan > wrote: >> It's means one of two things: >> > > sure, but 'how' exactly? > >> 1) Recoup the unused space for paid reallocation or > > arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a > method to affect routability of a network. > >> 2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space >> > > ... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support > that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For > allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ... > that's a lengthy process and expensive. > > -Chris > >> >> On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Shane Ronan >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from people >>>> who have long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for >>>> it, prepared to start filing civil suits against people who were >>>> assigned /24's (and paid for them) due to inaccurate declaration? >>> >>> out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context? >> >> > >
Re: The real issue
'not my customer, not my issue, you REALLY need to talk to ASX who's their provider...' -Chris I don't believe this is how most ISP's would respond or there wouldn't be RBLs. On Apr 21, 2009, at 9:38 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:04 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: However if someone at ARIN had put in a call to say the top 10 transit providers and asked them to black-hole this space (which they might do) then where would you have been? -Original Message- From: Mike Lewinski [mailto:m...@rockynet.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:54 PM To: nanog list Subject: Re: The real issue Shane Ronan wrote: Very simple, just do it. Ha! We have some legacy IP space in continous use here at ASN13345 for over 12 years now that was recently "revoked" for a few weeks (only to be later restored via a transfer once the exact definition of "ownership" in a member-owned cooperative was hammered out). Guess what stopped working in the interim? Well the whois records were gone and our abuse desk probably had a tiny decrease in complaints as a result. In some quarters that might be seen as a blessing, but we view abuse reports as cries for help from infected hosts that will become larger service outages if not addressed. Also the in-addr services went away, affecting about a half dozen mail servers out of several thousand hosts in the "revoked" delegation. We did not receive one single call or complaint about connectivity in that duration apart from the in-addr loss, and those customers were offered smart host use or replacement IPs for the duration. The ones who chose the smart host continued to use the "revoked" IP space without problem after that. The Internet's greatest strength and greatest weakness is the lack of a central authority who can "just do it". I for one am happy it is that way. It's part of what makes us an *autonomous* system, sovereign of our own little kingdom. Mike
Re: The real issue
Simple, send it to the address and contact listed in their whois record. On Apr 21, 2009, at 9:40 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: where do you send the bill? For some even large organizations I've seen bills get shuffled to random places that didn't deal with 'bills' and then get dropped. Not everyone at these places understands what an 'ip address' or 'number resource' or 'ARIN' is... or what those things mean to the 'business'. This really isn't a simple thing, it's really not something that ARIN can go cowboy up and fix. (not for lack of trying over the years of course) -Chris
Re: The real issue
But you are okay with them raising your fees to go to court left and right to enforce the declarations made by CEO's of companies who are happily paying the fees for the space they've been assigned. On Apr 21, 2009, at 9:43 PM, Jack Bates wrote: 1) I don't care to pay higher member fees because ARIN has been going to court left and right.
Re: The real issue
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:59:24PM -0400, Christopher Morrow wrote: > ... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support > that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For > allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ... > that's a lengthy process and expensive. Can't do that, they need that money to print and mail ARIN comic books. -- Richard A Steenbergenhttp://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: The real issue
> Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from people > who have long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it, > prepared to start filing civil suits against people who were assigned / > 24's (and paid for them) due to inaccurate declaration? it's a real shame that there is no mailing list for the endless arin policy disease threads. randy
Re: The real issue
> it's a real shame that there is no mailing list for the endless arin > policy disease threads. Ohh, you can merge it with the one about the ICANN governance outcry nonsense, that way will be easier to filter or delete. My .02 Jorge
RE: The real issue
Word up arin-annou...@arin.net; arin-p...@arin.net Jay Murphy IP Network Specialist NM Department of Health ITSD - IP Network Operations Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502 Bus. Ph.: 505.827.2851 "We move the information that moves your world." -Original Message- From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamo...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:35 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: The real issue > it's a real shame that there is no mailing list for the endless arin > policy disease threads. Ohh, you can merge it with the one about the ICANN governance outcry nonsense, that way will be easier to filter or delete. My .02 Jorge __ This inbound email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. __ Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including all attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited unless specifically provided under the New Mexico Inspection of Public Records Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this message. -- This email has been scanned by the Sybari - Antigen Email System.
