RE: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Frank Bulk]

Here's some background on two approaches that allow for locating:
http://www.fecinc.com/images/dynImages/Outside%20Plant%20FTTH%20presentation
1.pdf (page 11)

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Pete Carah [mailto:p...@altadena.net] 
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 2:09 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

On 08/19/2011 11:14 PM, Frank Bulk wrote:
> You can order custom-made patch cables that are outdoor rated from any
> decent company that sells fiber patch cables for a living.  If you want it
> to be locatable, make sure it includes some kind of metal strip.
Note that he wanted to use fiber for lightning protection; the metal
strip rather negates that...

-- Pete
>
> Here's some pre-made armored options: 
> http://goo.gl/sJ9NQ
> http://www.jemcables.com/ecommerce/CatalogSubCategoryDisplay.aspx?CID=101
>
http://www.macmall.com/p/Cables-To-Go-Cables/product~dpno~7910804~pdp.fhcjje
> i
>
> You can also lay sealed PVC conduit and run indoor-rated cable if you keep
> it below the frost line.
>
> Frank
>
>

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Pete Carah]

On 08/20/2011 02:07 PM, Matt Addison wrote:
> On Aug 20, 2011, at 3:09, Pete Carah  wrote:
>
> Note that he wanted to use fiber for lightning protection; the metal
> strip rather negates that...
>
>
> Only if you plug the metal strip into  your equipment. We usually don't do
> that with locate wires (they usually sit unterminated, or maybe grounded,
> depending on site practice).
Never underestimate lightning!!!

Actually unterminated is still bad for the equipment if the conductor
comes within a few inches of it (and lightning hits don't have to be
direct to get damage even from this)...
The best is non-metallic fiber in well-grounded metallic conduit (that
ends at the building entry)  (there are safety considerations here; the
building or at least the entry area has to be built to handle the ground
currents and not mix them into either power or phone lines) if you are
in a serious lightning area.  Sometime look at the external grounding at
a (properly-installed) cell site if you can get close enough to one to
see it.  (and the power folks are even more paranoid, sometimes they
will run a microwave link across a street to avoid conductive
communications links.  Then again, they can make their own lightning,
and they do (usually) plan for it.)  If unterminated to a junction point
at the entry wall, then non-conductive from there to the equipment, it
will be better for the equipment, but lightning hitting the cable
directly will likely explode the strip where it hits, normally cutting
the fiber for a few inches; this can easily happen even if nothing
appears to be grounded (think capacitor; the voltage and current
rate-of-rise makes capacitors and inductors out of things you wouldn't
expect).  And a grounded strip can attract the lightning, even through
an insulating sheath (again, think capacitor).  If you wonder, I have
some darkened parts left over from some satellite receivers that had
been connected to well-grounded antennas; that helps but not always
enough...  If the locate wire is big enough (say 10awg, maybe 12) then
it probably won't explode but even that can't be guaranteed; I've seen a
#4 wire melted half-way through from what was probably a direct hit
(this was in California in an area not known for lightning, even; we
only got a significant storm once or twice every few years.)  And I had
an old 14.4k modem (this was the early 1990's) burned out by a direct
hit at the CO 1.5 miles away (I happened to be near the CO and saw the
hit at the same time my link disappeared so I know that was what did
it...  Got back home and found the modem didn't recover.) (same part of
California.)

-- Pete

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Leigh Porter]

Why not use wireless for it all if the bandwidth is enough. 5.8ghz kit is 
pretty cheap and fast.

-- 
Leigh Porter


On 20 Aug 2011, at 04:16, "Frank Bulk"  wrote:

> You can order custom-made patch cables that are outdoor rated from any
> decent company that sells fiber patch cables for a living.  If you want it
> to be locatable, make sure it includes some kind of metal strip.
> 
> Here's some pre-made armored options: 
> http://goo.gl/sJ9NQ
> http://www.jemcables.com/ecommerce/CatalogSubCategoryDisplay.aspx?CID=101
> http://www.macmall.com/p/Cables-To-Go-Cables/product~dpno~7910804~pdp.fhcjje
> i
> 
> You can also lay sealed PVC conduit and run indoor-rated cable if you keep
> it below the frost line.
> 
> Frank
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Dorn Hetzel [mailto:d...@hetzel.org] 
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 6:54 AM
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53
> 
> I live on a farm and I have a number of data runs between buildings that are
> copper ethernet pulled through buried conduits.  (It was what I could afford
> when I put it in).  We have trouble from time to time with damage from
> lightning. (I've taken to using an intermediate "throwaway" 5-port switch
> after the surge suppressors on the cable after building entry, but still
> stuff gets blown up now and then.  The longer runs of outside ethernet have
> one or more toadstools with small switches used as repeaters in the middle.
> 
> 
> Well, I would like to convert the whole outside mess to fiber to eliminate
> this problem, and the per-foot price of 6 or 12 strand single mode cables is
> pretty reasonable nowadays...  But, I'm not very current on the most
> economical methods for splicing and terminating the fiber, which of course I
> would need to do on a "personal" sized budget.  Any suggestions?
> 
> On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Charles N Wyble
> wrote:
> 
>> On 08/12/2011 08:53 PM, Alex Rubenstein wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> .
>>> Trust me, if I could, I would certainly do dark to my house.
>> 
>> The last house I was in, was 500 feet from AT&T fiber and easy walking
>> distance to the CO. My sister in law lives there now. I'm considering
>> putting a rack or two in the garage for disaster recovery purposes.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Been there, done that, in the current home. Two MDF's, upstairs. I hate
>> it. For the cost (not much) going to home run everything. Ethernet, coax,
>> speakers, etc.
>> 
>> Nice. Please write this up. I want to do the same. Hoping I can rack
>> mount everything and have an epic setup. Every room would have ethernet
>> drop, coax, speaker. What about video? Hmmm. What about fiber drop in
>> every room as well?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
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Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Matt Addison]

On Aug 20, 2011, at 3:09, Pete Carah  wrote:

Note that he wanted to use fiber for lightning protection; the metal
strip rather negates that...


Only if you plug the metal strip into  your equipment. We usually don't do
that with locate wires (they usually sit unterminated, or maybe grounded,
depending on site practice).

~Matt

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Pete Carah]

On 08/19/2011 11:14 PM, Frank Bulk wrote:
> You can order custom-made patch cables that are outdoor rated from any
> decent company that sells fiber patch cables for a living.  If you want it
> to be locatable, make sure it includes some kind of metal strip.
Note that he wanted to use fiber for lightning protection; the metal
strip rather negates that...

-- Pete
>
> Here's some pre-made armored options: 
> http://goo.gl/sJ9NQ
> http://www.jemcables.com/ecommerce/CatalogSubCategoryDisplay.aspx?CID=101
> http://www.macmall.com/p/Cables-To-Go-Cables/product~dpno~7910804~pdp.fhcjje
> i
>
> You can also lay sealed PVC conduit and run indoor-rated cable if you keep
> it below the frost line.
>
> Frank
>
>

RE: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Frank Bulk]

You can order custom-made patch cables that are outdoor rated from any
decent company that sells fiber patch cables for a living.  If you want it
to be locatable, make sure it includes some kind of metal strip.

Here's some pre-made armored options: 
http://goo.gl/sJ9NQ
http://www.jemcables.com/ecommerce/CatalogSubCategoryDisplay.aspx?CID=101
http://www.macmall.com/p/Cables-To-Go-Cables/product~dpno~7910804~pdp.fhcjje
i

You can also lay sealed PVC conduit and run indoor-rated cable if you keep
it below the frost line.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Dorn Hetzel [mailto:d...@hetzel.org] 
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 6:54 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

I live on a farm and I have a number of data runs between buildings that are
copper ethernet pulled through buried conduits.  (It was what I could afford
when I put it in).  We have trouble from time to time with damage from
lightning. (I've taken to using an intermediate "throwaway" 5-port switch
after the surge suppressors on the cable after building entry, but still
stuff gets blown up now and then.  The longer runs of outside ethernet have
one or more toadstools with small switches used as repeaters in the middle.


Well, I would like to convert the whole outside mess to fiber to eliminate
this problem, and the per-foot price of 6 or 12 strand single mode cables is
pretty reasonable nowadays...  But, I'm not very current on the most
economical methods for splicing and terminating the fiber, which of course I
would need to do on a "personal" sized budget.  Any suggestions?

On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Charles N Wyble
wrote:

> On 08/12/2011 08:53 PM, Alex Rubenstein wrote:
> >
> >
> >> .
> > Trust me, if I could, I would certainly do dark to my house.
>
> The last house I was in, was 500 feet from AT&T fiber and easy walking
> distance to the CO. My sister in law lives there now. I'm considering
> putting a rack or two in the garage for disaster recovery purposes.
>
> >
> >
> > Been there, done that, in the current home. Two MDF's, upstairs. I hate
> it. For the cost (not much) going to home run everything. Ethernet, coax,
> speakers, etc.
>
> Nice. Please write this up. I want to do the same. Hoping I can rack
> mount everything and have an epic setup. Every room would have ethernet
> drop, coax, speaker. What about video? Hmmm. What about fiber drop in
> every room as well?
>
>
>
>
>

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Jared Mauch]

On Aug 13, 2011, at 11:58 AM, Dorn Hetzel wrote:

> [[[ Note: If I could find cheap enough switches with an optical interface I
> would be switching to optical at this point! ]]]

There are some media converters out there that take a SFP/GLC <-> RJ45 for 
$20-25, e.g.:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=as_li_qf_sp_sr_tl?ie=UTF8&keywords=B003H44S40&tag=pucknethernet-20&index=aps&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325

(disclosure; amazon referral url)

For the cost of 2 of these, and SFPs (plus an x-over cable) it may be worth it. 
 I know personally I have observed people giving away SFPs as marketing. This 
may work well for your home/farm setup.

I'm sure there are likely cheaper media converters as well, but this is in the 
same price range as most 5-port gigabit switches (x2 obviously)

- Jared

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Jay Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Coy Hile" 

> > From: Alex Rubenstein 

> > The weakness will be only one provider of connectivity.
> 
> Damn, and people claim I'm nuts!
> 
> You know, you could go whole hog and multihome.

This thread do give "multihome" a whole new meaning, don't it?

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[William Herrin]

On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Dorn Hetzel  wrote:
> Well, I would like to convert the whole outside mess to fiber to eliminate
> this problem, and the per-foot price of 6 or 12 strand single mode cables is
> pretty reasonable nowadays...  But, I'm not very current on the most
> economical methods for splicing and terminating the fiber, which of course I
> would need to do on a "personal" sized budget.  Any suggestions?

Amp Lightcrimp Plus (NOT Lightcrimp XTC). Very easy to use, almost as
easy as terminating copper. But good luck finding it cheap, at least
for my definition of "cheap."

The alternative is: you can hunt eBay for preterminated cable.

http://computers.shop.ebay.com/4-Meters-Up-/64046/i.html

and search for "(SC,LC,ST)" ordered by highest price first. After the
first 100 or 200 items, you'll get to the ones you want.

For example, here's duplex 300 meter multimode with SC connectors:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3/390078528910

Regards,
Bill Herrin

-- 
William D. Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: 
Falls Church, VA 22042-3004

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Greg Ihnen]

On Aug 13, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Dorn Hetzel wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Greg Ihnen  wrote:
> On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:23 AM, Dorn Hetzel wrote:
> 
> > I live on a farm and I have a number of data runs between buildings that are
> > copper ethernet pulled through buried conduits.  (It was what I could afford
> > when I put it in).  We have trouble from time to time with damage from
> > lightning. (I've taken to using an intermediate "throwaway" 5-port switch
> > after the surge suppressors on the cable after building entry, but still
> > stuff gets blown up now and then.  The longer runs of outside ethernet have
> > one or more toadstools with small switches used as repeaters in the middle.
> >
> >
> > Well, I would like to convert the whole outside mess to fiber to eliminate
> > this problem, and the per-foot price of 6 or 12 strand single mode cables is
> > pretty reasonable nowadays...  But, I'm not very current on the most
> > economical methods for splicing and terminating the fiber, which of course I
> > would need to do on a "personal" sized budget.  Any suggestions?
> 
> 
> This is somewhat off topic but have you tried any ethernet surge protectors? 
> I use them here in the jungle with lots of lightning and it works good if 
> your overall install is sound. Also you have to have your electrical ground 
> tied to the conduit so it all stays at the same potential. But still fiber is 
> the way to go. You could also go wireless with a pair of Ubiquiti Nanostation 
> M2's
> 
> Greg
> 
> Greg,
> 
> Yes, that's the part about "5-port switch after the surge suppressors on the 
> cable after building entry".
> 
> Immediately after building entry I use HyperLink HGLN-CAT6 Lightning 
> Protectors  (See: http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=22171 )
> 
> Then I connect to a "throwaway" 5-port switch (whatever was on sale last time 
> I ran out).  This switch is connected to it's own throwaway UPS, which is 
> plugged into a separate power circuit from everything else.
> 
> [[[ Note: If I could find cheap enough switches with an optical interface I 
> would be switching to optical at this point! ]]]
> 
> Then I connect from the throwaway switch to the real switch.
> 
> But STILL I lose ports on the real switch from time to time.  So converting 
> the outside plant to fiber is a real goal.
> 
> And the fiber prices are darn reasonable nowadays for 6 or 12 strands of 
> 9/125:  (Example http://www.showmecables.com/viewItem.asp?idProduct=10493  )
> 
> But outside plant fiber was never my thing, and I have no decent idea about 
> how to get it spliced and terminated for reasonable costs, or really even 
> what would be reasonable.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Dorn
> 

Dom,

If you're still losing the switches then you've got issues that would 
be cheaper to solve with fiber or wireless instead of grounding.

The folks on with Wireless Internet Service Provider's Association 
(WISPA) www.wispa.org do these kinds of installs all the time, doing short 
fiber runs up towers etc. If you put out a message there I'm sure you'll get 
all kinds of help.

Greg

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Dorn Hetzel]

On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Greg Ihnen  wrote:

> On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:23 AM, Dorn Hetzel wrote:
>
> > I live on a farm and I have a number of data runs between buildings that
> are
> > copper ethernet pulled through buried conduits.  (It was what I could
> afford
> > when I put it in).  We have trouble from time to time with damage from
> > lightning. (I've taken to using an intermediate "throwaway" 5-port switch
> > after the surge suppressors on the cable after building entry, but still
> > stuff gets blown up now and then.  The longer runs of outside ethernet
> have
> > one or more toadstools with small switches used as repeaters in the
> middle.
> >
> >
> > Well, I would like to convert the whole outside mess to fiber to
> eliminate
> > this problem, and the per-foot price of 6 or 12 strand single mode cables
> is
> > pretty reasonable nowadays...  But, I'm not very current on the most
> > economical methods for splicing and terminating the fiber, which of
> course I
> > would need to do on a "personal" sized budget.  Any suggestions?
>
>
> This is somewhat off topic but have you tried any ethernet surge
> protectors? I use them here in the jungle with lots of lightning and it
> works good if your overall install is sound. Also you have to have your
> electrical ground tied to the conduit so it all stays at the same potential.
> But still fiber is the way to go. You could also go wireless with a pair of
> Ubiquiti Nanostation M2's
>
> Greg


Greg,

Yes, that's the part about "5-port switch after the surge suppressors on the
cable after building entry".

Immediately after building entry I use HyperLink HGLN-CAT6 Lightning
Protectors  (See: http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=22171 )

Then I connect to a "throwaway" 5-port switch (whatever was on sale last
time I ran out).  This switch is connected to it's own throwaway UPS, which
is plugged into a separate power circuit from everything else.

[[[ Note: If I could find cheap enough switches with an optical interface I
would be switching to optical at this point! ]]]

Then I connect from the throwaway switch to the real switch.

But STILL I lose ports on the real switch from time to time.  So converting
the outside plant to fiber is a real goal.

And the fiber prices are darn reasonable nowadays for 6 or 12 strands of
9/125:  (Example http://www.showmecables.com/viewItem.asp?idProduct=10493  )

But outside plant fiber was never my thing, and I have no decent idea about
how to get it spliced and terminated for reasonable costs, or really even
what would be reasonable.


Regards,

-Dorn

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Greg Ihnen]

On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:23 AM, Dorn Hetzel wrote:

> I live on a farm and I have a number of data runs between buildings that are
> copper ethernet pulled through buried conduits.  (It was what I could afford
> when I put it in).  We have trouble from time to time with damage from
> lightning. (I've taken to using an intermediate "throwaway" 5-port switch
> after the surge suppressors on the cable after building entry, but still
> stuff gets blown up now and then.  The longer runs of outside ethernet have
> one or more toadstools with small switches used as repeaters in the middle.
> 
> 
> Well, I would like to convert the whole outside mess to fiber to eliminate
> this problem, and the per-foot price of 6 or 12 strand single mode cables is
> pretty reasonable nowadays...  But, I'm not very current on the most
> economical methods for splicing and terminating the fiber, which of course I
> would need to do on a "personal" sized budget.  Any suggestions?


This is somewhat off topic but have you tried any ethernet surge protectors? I 
use them here in the jungle with lots of lightning and it works good if your 
overall install is sound. Also you have to have your electrical ground tied to 
the conduit so it all stays at the same potential. But still fiber is the way 
to go. You could also go wireless with a pair of Ubiquiti Nanostation M2's

Greg

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Dorn Hetzel]

I live on a farm and I have a number of data runs between buildings that are
copper ethernet pulled through buried conduits.  (It was what I could afford
when I put it in).  We have trouble from time to time with damage from
lightning. (I've taken to using an intermediate "throwaway" 5-port switch
after the surge suppressors on the cable after building entry, but still
stuff gets blown up now and then.  The longer runs of outside ethernet have
one or more toadstools with small switches used as repeaters in the middle.


Well, I would like to convert the whole outside mess to fiber to eliminate
this problem, and the per-foot price of 6 or 12 strand single mode cables is
pretty reasonable nowadays...  But, I'm not very current on the most
economical methods for splicing and terminating the fiber, which of course I
would need to do on a "personal" sized budget.  Any suggestions?

On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Charles N Wyble
wrote:

> On 08/12/2011 08:53 PM, Alex Rubenstein wrote:
> >
> >
> >> .
> > Trust me, if I could, I would certainly do dark to my house.
>
> The last house I was in, was 500 feet from AT&T fiber and easy walking
> distance to the CO. My sister in law lives there now. I'm considering
> putting a rack or two in the garage for disaster recovery purposes.
>
> >
> >
> > Been there, done that, in the current home. Two MDF's, upstairs. I hate
> it. For the cost (not much) going to home run everything. Ethernet, coax,
> speakers, etc.
>
> Nice. Please write this up. I want to do the same. Hoping I can rack
> mount everything and have an epic setup. Every room would have ethernet
> drop, coax, speaker. What about video? Hmmm. What about fiber drop in
> every room as well?
>
>
>
>
>

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Charles N Wyble]

On 08/12/2011 08:53 PM, Alex Rubenstein wrote:
>
>
>> .
> Trust me, if I could, I would certainly do dark to my house. 

The last house I was in, was 500 feet from AT&T fiber and easy walking
distance to the CO. My sister in law lives there now. I'm considering
putting a rack or two in the garage for disaster recovery purposes.

>
>
> Been there, done that, in the current home. Two MDF's, upstairs. I hate it. 
> For the cost (not much) going to home run everything. Ethernet, coax, 
> speakers, etc.

Nice. Please write this up. I want to do the same. Hoping I can rack
mount everything and have an epic setup. Every room would have ethernet
drop, coax, speaker. What about video? Hmmm. What about fiber drop in
every room as well? 

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Charles N Wyble]

On 08/12/2011 08:52 PM, Coy Hile wrote:
> Damn, and people claim I'm nuts!
>
> You know, you could go whole hog and multihome.

See I read that as having multiple homes. Not multiple feeds. LOL.

RE: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Alex Rubenstein]

> Damn, and people claim I'm nuts!

I know I am, thanks.


> You know, you could go whole hog and multihome.

Trust me, if I could, I would certainly do dark to my house. 


> I've got 1 cabinet and 1 two-post rack in the basement.  I'm also
> building out a small patch panel in a closet on the second floor.
> 
> That way, I don't have to do so many home-runs from the wall ports in
> the living spaces back down to the basement.

Been there, done that, in the current home. Two MDF's, upstairs. I hate it. For 
the cost (not much) going to home run everything. Ethernet, coax, speakers, etc.

Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 43, Issue 53

[Coy Hile]

> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:49:48 -0400
> From: Alex Rubenstein 
> I am in the process of building a house. I designed a room that can 
> accommodate three 24 x 36 inch cabinets or four post racks. I will likely 
> install a APC 2200 watt UPS in the bottom of two of the racks, and the third 
> will be a cross-connect field, patch panels, etc.
>
> The room will have a small, ductless ac unit, maybe a ton or a little more, 
> which should be good for about 3 to 5 kw of load.
>
> The house is backed up by a 48 kw genset with an auto transfer switch.
>
> The weakness will be only one provider of connectivity.
>

Damn, and people claim I'm nuts!

You know, you could go whole hog and multihome.

I've got 1 cabinet and 1 two-post rack in the basement.  I'm also
building out a small patch panel in a closet on the second floor.

That way, I don't have to do so many home-runs from the wall ports in
the living spaces back down to the basement.

-Coy