Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[John Levine]

It appears that Michael Thomas  said:
>
>On 6/26/23 6:06 PM, Ron Yokubaitis wrote:
>> Dalles: government subsidized Hydroelectric Power, that’s why.
>
>Well that maybe, but electric rates are hella cheap in Oregon regardless.

Well, yeah, that's what he said although I would argue about the
subsidy part. The feds subsidized construction somewhere between 50
and 90 years ago, but the power charges have paid for O+M since then.
If you have the right geography, hydro is really cheap. Just ask the
people in Labrador who sell their power to Hydro Quebec for 0.2c/kWh.

By the way, here in the decadent northeast I pay about 9.5c/kwh
retail. What are the prices like in Oregon?

R's,
John

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Ron Yokubaitis via NANOG]

Dalles: government subsidized Hydroelectric Power, that’s why.

Sent from the iPad of Ron Yokubaitis

> On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:37 PM, Michael Thomas  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 6/24/23 5:28 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> 
 On Jun 23, 2023, at 18:04, Michael Thomas  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On 6/23/23 4:01 PM, 
 https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__Delong.com&d=DwIDaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=cGrDT0liF-gD_o4EJ7o_qg&m=Z1ElQJ6RtDdrUgH7UwCpBHojWq1Iyp4CM49TsykDfXM&s=BUfOgzy41EDHyDbK_xBslELDt9Xofk6_YBR4nLTQGmo&e=
  via NANOG wrote:
 The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making the 
 entire region less stable and proposed construction of new high-voltage 
 tower corridors for data centers.
 Yeah, I can kind of understand those, but as long as the grid is properly 
 planned, it really shouldn’t have a destabilizing effect. In fact, many 
 datacenter in California do CoGen and end up providing additional grid 
 stability.
 
>>> Uh, ::cough:: PGE ::cough::
>>> 
>>> I so wanted to schadenfreude so bad with Texas and their shitty grid, but 
>>> then remembered where I live.
>>> 
>>> Mike
>> What’s not to love about a power company that literally qualifies as a 
>> recidivist felon?
>> 
>> It is my sincere hope to finish my mortgage and then start putting money 
>> towards electrical independence. (Wind, more solar, batteries, and 
>> disconnecting Persistent Graft and Extortion).
>> 
> I'm waiting on a software upgrade for my inverter to hook up a generator to 
> refill the battery when it gets too low. Not off the grid, but not at the 
> mercy of PGE's fuckery.
> 
> How many datacenters are in Norcal? I imagine that it's a lot, but PGE's 
> rates are like 2x the rest of the country. At least for residential. I always 
> got a kick of Google putting a datacenter in the Dalles in Oregon -- 
> basically mainlining the Columbia river.
> 
> Mike
> 

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Michael Thomas]

On 6/26/23 6:06 PM, Ron Yokubaitis wrote:

Dalles: government subsidized Hydroelectric Power, that’s why.


Well that maybe, but electric rates are hella cheap in Oregon regardless.

Mike




Sent from the iPad of Ron Yokubaitis


On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:37 PM, Michael Thomas  wrote:



On 6/24/23 5:28 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:


On Jun 23, 2023, at 18:04, Michael Thomas  wrote:



On 6/23/23 4:01 PM, 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__Delong.com&d=DwIDaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=cGrDT0liF-gD_o4EJ7o_qg&m=Z1ElQJ6RtDdrUgH7UwCpBHojWq1Iyp4CM49TsykDfXM&s=BUfOgzy41EDHyDbK_xBslELDt9Xofk6_YBR4nLTQGmo&e=
 via NANOG wrote:
The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making the entire 
region less stable and proposed construction of new high-voltage tower 
corridors for data centers.
Yeah, I can kind of understand those, but as long as the grid is properly 
planned, it really shouldn’t have a destabilizing effect. In fact, many 
datacenter in California do CoGen and end up providing additional grid 
stability.


Uh, ::cough:: PGE ::cough::

I so wanted to schadenfreude so bad with Texas and their shitty grid, but then 
remembered where I live.

Mike

What’s not to love about a power company that literally qualifies as a 
recidivist felon?

It is my sincere hope to finish my mortgage and then start putting money 
towards electrical independence. (Wind, more solar, batteries, and 
disconnecting Persistent Graft and Extortion).


I'm waiting on a software upgrade for my inverter to hook up a generator to 
refill the battery when it gets too low. Not off the grid, but not at the mercy 
of PGE's fuckery.

How many datacenters are in Norcal? I imagine that it's a lot, but PGE's rates 
are like 2x the rest of the country. At least for residential. I always got a 
kick of Google putting a datacenter in the Dalles in Oregon -- basically 
mainlining the Columbia river.

Mike

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Michael Thomas]

On 6/24/23 5:28 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:



On Jun 23, 2023, at 18:04, Michael Thomas  wrote:



On 6/23/23 4:01 PM, Delong.com via NANOG wrote:
The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making the entire 
region less stable and proposed construction of new high-voltage tower 
corridors for data centers.
Yeah, I can kind of understand those, but as long as the grid is properly 
planned, it really shouldn’t have a destabilizing effect. In fact, many 
datacenter in California do CoGen and end up providing additional grid 
stability.


Uh, ::cough:: PGE ::cough::

I so wanted to schadenfreude so bad with Texas and their shitty grid, but then 
remembered where I live.

Mike

What’s not to love about a power company that literally qualifies as a 
recidivist felon?

It is my sincere hope to finish my mortgage and then start putting money 
towards electrical independence. (Wind, more solar, batteries, and 
disconnecting Persistent Graft and Extortion).

I'm waiting on a software upgrade for my inverter to hook up a generator 
to refill the battery when it gets too low. Not off the grid, but not at 
the mercy of PGE's fuckery.


How many datacenters are in Norcal? I imagine that it's a lot, but PGE's 
rates are like 2x the rest of the country. At least for residential. I 
always got a kick of Google putting a datacenter in the Dalles in Oregon 
-- basically mainlining the Columbia river.


Mike

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[William Herrin]

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 3:02 PM Hal Murray  wrote:
> Why are gensets loud?

They're high power internal combustion engines. Explosions are loud.


> If I wanted a less noisy one, could I get it?

Yes. If you run the engine at 3600 rpm to get 60 hertz ac power, it's
a lot "louder" than if you run it at 1800 or 1200 rpm and use the wire
windings to step the frequency up to 60 hertz. This is because high
frequency sound at the same decibels is perceived to be louder than
low frequency sound.


> Are the zoning people smart enough to include noise limits?

It depends. Agricultural and industrial zones don't generally have
noise ordinances. When they do, the ordinances tend to be written as
decibels rather than perceptual disturbance.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Hal Murray]

> Even traditional data centers have not been known to be especially
> considerate about scheduling their -loud- genset tests. Doesn't matter so
> much in the middle of an industrial zone but when you do it near where people
> live you're going to make them angry. 

Why are gensets loud?

Is there a fundamental physics problem or are they all designed for industrial 
areas where the noise isn't much of a problem?

If I wanted a less noisy one, could I get it?  How much more would it cost?

Are the zoning people smart enough to include noise limits?  ...


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

> On Jun 23, 2023, at 18:04, Michael Thomas  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 6/23/23 4:01 PM, Delong.com via NANOG wrote:
>> The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making the 
>> entire region less stable and proposed construction of new high-voltage 
>> tower corridors for data centers.
>> Yeah, I can kind of understand those, but as long as the grid is properly 
>> planned, it really shouldn’t have a destabilizing effect. In fact, many 
>> datacenter in California do CoGen and end up providing additional grid 
>> stability.
>> 
> Uh, ::cough:: PGE ::cough::
> 
> I so wanted to schadenfreude so bad with Texas and their shitty grid, but 
> then remembered where I live.
> 
> Mike

What’s not to love about a power company that literally qualifies as a 
recidivist felon?

It is my sincere hope to finish my mortgage and then start putting money 
towards electrical independence. (Wind, more solar, batteries, and 
disconnecting Persistent Graft and Extortion). 

Owen

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Michael Thomas]

On 6/23/23 4:01 PM, Delong.com via NANOG wrote:
The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making 
the entire region less stable and proposed construction of new 
high-voltage tower corridors for data centers.

Yeah, I can kind of understand those, but as long as the grid is properly 
planned, it really shouldn’t have a destabilizing effect. In fact, many 
datacenter in California do CoGen and end up providing additional grid 
stability.


Uh, ::cough:: PGE ::cough::

I so wanted to schadenfreude so bad with Texas and their shitty grid, 
but then remembered where I live.


Mike

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Sean Donelan]

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Delong.com wrote:

Northern Virginia has about 275 data centers


There’s probably close to that number in the South Bay Area of California as 
well.


California is well-known for its state enviromental laws and zoning, so 
some of the issues with the 'wild-west' zoning of rural Virginia are 
different.


When data centers developers aren't required to add cost in NOVA, they 
don't.  No water conservation, no air-quality controls, no off-site sound 
silencers.  Stuff that may be required by California zoning.


I remember when we specified 'hospital-grade' silencers on outdoor 
equipment; and the push-back about the 'extra-cost.'


NOVA counties had zoning rules about decibel levels, but not sound 
frequencies or duration.  The fan noise from the largest data centers in 
NOVA/Maryland have been measured up to a couple of miles away.


While the noise level may be less than the legal decibel level, the 
24-hour drone (frequency) seems to penetrate standard house and building 
construction in NOVA. Its the night-time constant fan droning noises when 
people are trying to sleep which cause the most complaints.




As data centers proliferate, neighbors knock the noise
https://wtop.com/local/2022/09/as-data-centers-proliferate-neighbors-knock-the-noise/

Data center cooling fan system noise control - low cost + efficiency gains
https://invc.com/noise-control/data-center-noise-attenuation/

Science of data center noise | VERIFY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JflFFqbZ1X8

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Delong.com via NANOG]

> On Jun 23, 2023, at 15:17, Sean Donelan  wrote:
> 
> 
> Northern Virginia has about 275 data centers

There’s probably close to that number in the South Bay Area of California as 
well.

> The noise complaints are about HVAC fan noise (24-hour droning) from cooling 
> towers or roof top farms of evaporative condensers.

I get it, but reality is that at most datacenter, this noise simply disappears 
once you get much outside of the parking lot. Especially if there’s a busy 
roadway anywhere nearby.

> The water complaints are about the one-use water cooling towers

That does seem rather silly… We don’t have those in California.

> The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making the 
> entire region less stable and proposed construction of new high-voltage tower 
> corridors for data centers.

Yeah, I can kind of understand those, but as long as the grid is properly 
planned, it really shouldn’t have a destabilizing effect. In fact, many 
datacenter in California do CoGen and end up providing additional grid 
stability.

> And if you didn't know, some VC-funded companies can be a**-holes and not 
> known for being good neighbors or anything besides making money.

Oh, yeah… We have those here too.

> And yes, I helped design & build several early data centers in NOVA :-)
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/02/10/data-centers-northern-virginia-internet/

No doubt.

Owen

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Joel Halpern]

I will note that the grid in Loudoun county (arguably the center of the 
Northern Virginia data center boom) has actually gotten a LOT better 
than it was when I first moved here.  Some of that was rebuild started 
before the surge, due to just how bad it was.  But I am fairly sure that 
some of it is a side-effect of the build itself.


Yours,

Joel

On 6/23/2023 6:17 PM, Sean Donelan wrote:


Northern Virginia has about 275 data centers

The noise complaints are about HVAC fan noise (24-hour droning) from 
cooling towers or roof top farms of evaporative condensers.


The water complaints are about the one-use water cooling towers

The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making 
the entire region less stable and proposed construction of new 
high-voltage tower corridors for data centers.


And if you didn't know, some VC-funded companies can be a**-holes and 
not known for being good neighbors or anything besides making money.


And yes, I helped design & build several early data centers in NOVA :-)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/02/10/data-centers-northern-virginia-internet/ 

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Sean Donelan]

Northern Virginia has about 275 data centers

The noise complaints are about HVAC fan noise (24-hour droning) from 
cooling towers or roof top farms of evaporative condensers.


The water complaints are about the one-use water cooling towers

The electric grid complaints are about the demand on the grid making the 
entire region less stable and proposed construction of new high-voltage 
tower corridors for data centers.


And if you didn't know, some VC-funded companies can be a**-holes and 
not known for being good neighbors or anything besides making money.


And yes, I helped design & build several early data centers in NOVA :-)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/02/10/data-centers-northern-virginia-internet/

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Christopher Morrow]

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 5:36 PM Delong.com  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2023, at 12:19, Christopher Morrow  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>
> I view throwing everything into NOVA as being lazy. Throwing so many at one 
> place isn't good for resiliency.
>
>
> there's nyc and chicago and california :) (and dallas)
> but.. :)
>
> The discussions in local news (in nova) seem to center around:
>  "but the noise!"
>
>
> This is relatively silly unless the local grid is extraordinarily unreliable. 
> Unless the generators are running,
> you can rarely hear a datacenter beyond the bounds of its parking lot.

yes.

>  "but the beautiful scenery!"
>
>
> This one might be somewhat valid if it wasn’t likely to become some other 
> form of warehouse anyway.
>

it's their 'heritage' that they are worried about.

>  "but the water poisoning!!"
>
>
> ??? I find it hard to believe that data centers are big emitters of water 
> pollution. Someone’s going to have
> to explain this one to me.
>

there's plenty of, already available, discussion about how this is
just a trope being used instead of 'but our heritage'.
yea, it's just not at all an actual problem.

> there were, apparently, some actual problems with how
> prince-william-county did their re-zoning work...
> like, I think, one of the administration folks 'had a ton of money
> tied up in DC company stock...' (that person may have recused
> themselves, but)
>
> If you peel back the layers a bunch of it actually looks pretty
> horrible for the people protesting:
>  "NIMBY problems"
>  "Our 'heritage'"
>
> i'm sure it'll work out in the end, but ... gonna be fun to watch.
>
>
> I’ll bring marshmallows, who wants to bring the chocolate and the graham 
> crackers to this dumpster fire?

I have 1 lawn chair, you'll need to bring your own.

> Owen
>

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Christopher Morrow]

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 3:57 PM William Herrin  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 12:19 PM Christopher Morrow
>  wrote:
> > The discussions in local news (in nova) seem to center around:
> >   "but the noise!"
> >
> > i'm sure it'll work out in the end, but ... gonna be fun to watch.
>
> There is apparently a problem in nearby West Virginia where someone
> built a cryptomining facility using free air cooling and it disturbs
> the neighbors. 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/18/bitcoin-mining-noise-pollution-appalachia/

arguably, people buying into the idea that blatantly flim-flamming
folks aren't going to flim-flamming them is.. not related here, at
all.
(that article is about limestone, TN, not west virginia - west nor
virginia appear in the article)

> Even traditional data centers have not been known to be especially
> considerate about scheduling their -loud- genset tests. Doesn't matter
> so much in the middle of an industrial zone but when you do it near
> where people live you're going to make them angry.

sure, I believe the various nova parts have reasonable agreements
about how/when to do these
sorts of tests though.

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Delong.com via NANOG]

> On Jun 23, 2023, at 12:19, Christopher Morrow  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett  > wrote:
>> 
>> I view throwing everything into NOVA as being lazy. Throwing so many at one 
>> place isn't good for resiliency.
> 
> there's nyc and chicago and california :) (and dallas)
> but.. :)
> 
> The discussions in local news (in nova) seem to center around:
>  "but the noise!"

This is relatively silly unless the local grid is extraordinarily unreliable. 
Unless the generators are running,
you can rarely hear a datacenter beyond the bounds of its parking lot.

>  "but the beautiful scenery!"

This one might be somewhat valid if it wasn’t likely to become some other form 
of warehouse anyway.

>  "but the water poisoning!!"

??? I find it hard to believe that data centers are big emitters of water 
pollution. Someone’s going to have
to explain this one to me.

> there were, apparently, some actual problems with how
> prince-william-county did their re-zoning work...
> like, I think, one of the administration folks 'had a ton of money
> tied up in DC company stock...' (that person may have recused
> themselves, but)
> 
> If you peel back the layers a bunch of it actually looks pretty
> horrible for the people protesting:
>  "NIMBY problems"
>  "Our 'heritage'"
> 
> i'm sure it'll work out in the end, but ... gonna be fun to watch.

I’ll bring marshmallows, who wants to bring the chocolate and the graham 
crackers to this dumpster fire?

Owen

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[William Herrin]

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 12:19 PM Christopher Morrow
 wrote:
> The discussions in local news (in nova) seem to center around:
>   "but the noise!"
>
> i'm sure it'll work out in the end, but ... gonna be fun to watch.

There is apparently a problem in nearby West Virginia where someone
built a cryptomining facility using free air cooling and it disturbs
the neighbors. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/18/bitcoin-mining-noise-pollution-appalachia/

Even traditional data centers have not been known to be especially
considerate about scheduling their -loud- genset tests. Doesn't matter
so much in the middle of an industrial zone but when you do it near
where people live you're going to make them angry.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Christopher Morrow]

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> I view throwing everything into NOVA as being lazy. Throwing so many at one 
> place isn't good for resiliency.

there's nyc and chicago and california :) (and dallas)
but.. :)

The discussions in local news (in nova) seem to center around:
  "but the noise!"
  "but the beautiful scenery!"
  "but the water poisoning!!"

there were, apparently, some actual problems with how
prince-william-county did their re-zoning work...
like, I think, one of the administration folks 'had a ton of money
tied up in DC company stock...' (that person may have recused
themselves, but)

If you peel back the layers a bunch of it actually looks pretty
horrible for the people protesting:
  "NIMBY problems"
  "Our 'heritage'"

i'm sure it'll work out in the end, but ... gonna be fun to watch.

>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
> 
> From: "Sean Donelan" 
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 3:02:20 PM
> Subject: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers
>
>
> Backlash to data centers prompts political upset in northern Virginia
> By MATTHEW BARAKAT
> https://apnews.com/article/virginia-election-data-centers-prince-william-229cb44d34ccf4bd1cc4e9f0d0131649
>
> FALLS CHURCH, Va. (AP) — The tech industry’s drive to dot the Virginia
> landscape with data centers may have hit a glitch this week in Prince
> William County.
>
> [...]
> The plan, called the Prince William Digital Gateway, prompted one of the
> region’s biggest land-use disputes in decades. It was approved despite
> vocal opposition from residents concerned that the data centers are noisy,
> ugly, and consume massive amounts of electricity that require the addition
> of high-voltage transmission lines.
>
> [...]
> Josh Levi, president of the Data Center Coalition, an industry trade
> group, said that data centers can make a compelling argument to local
> officials about the tax benefits that accrue from hosting data centers.
>
> “The industry prioritizes maintaining an open, active, and collaborative
> dialogue with elected officials and candidates for office, their
> constituents, and other community stakeholders,” he said in a statement.
>
> [...]
>

Re: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers

[Mike Hammett]

I view throwing everything into NOVA as being lazy. Throwing so many at one 
place isn't good for resiliency. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Sean Donelan"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 3:02:20 PM 
Subject: Northern Virginia has had enough with data centers 


Backlash to data centers prompts political upset in northern Virginia 
By MATTHEW BARAKAT 
https://apnews.com/article/virginia-election-data-centers-prince-william-229cb44d34ccf4bd1cc4e9f0d0131649
 

FALLS CHURCH, Va. (AP) — The tech industry’s drive to dot the Virginia 
landscape with data centers may have hit a glitch this week in Prince 
William County. 

[...] 
The plan, called the Prince William Digital Gateway, prompted one of the 
region’s biggest land-use disputes in decades. It was approved despite 
vocal opposition from residents concerned that the data centers are noisy, 
ugly, and consume massive amounts of electricity that require the addition 
of high-voltage transmission lines. 

[...] 
Josh Levi, president of the Data Center Coalition, an industry trade 
group, said that data centers can make a compelling argument to local 
officials about the tax benefits that accrue from hosting data centers. 

“The industry prioritizes maintaining an open, active, and collaborative 
dialogue with elected officials and candidates for office, their 
constituents, and other community stakeholders,” he said in a statement. 

[...]