Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Gary Buhrmaster]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 5:25 PM, William Herrin  wrote:

> If you want to nitpick. ;)

Well, if you are going to nitpick, the earth is modeled more
closely (but still not precisely) as an oblate spheroid than a
true sphere.

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[William Herrin]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 1:19 PM, shawn wilson  wrote:
> On Jun 22, 2015 6:14 PM, "William Herrin"  wrote:
>> Two-way satellite systems based on SV's in geostationary orbit (like
>> the two you're considering) have high latency. 22,000 miles out,
>> another 22,000 miles back and do it again for the return packet.
>
> Just a minor nitpick - that's 22,300 miles above the equator at sea level.
> You're probably closer to 22,500 miles away from the bird (as could your
> uplink). That's just rough math adding the tangent of 1500 miles from the
> equator in my head (plus the tangent of the curve distance from that base
> line and angle of the bird :) ).

Typically further than that because you're not only not at the same
latitude as the bird, you're not at the same longitude either.

If you want to nitpick. ;)

-Bill


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[shawn wilson]

On Jun 22, 2015 6:14 PM, "William Herrin"  wrote:
>

>
> Two-way satellite systems based on SV's in geostationary orbit (like
> the two you're considering) have high latency. 22,000 miles out,
> another 22,000 miles back and do it again for the return packet.

Just a minor nitpick - that's 22,300 miles above the equator at sea level.
You're probably closer to 22,500 miles away from the bird (as could your
uplink). That's just rough math adding the tangent of 1500 miles from the
equator in my head (plus the tangent of the curve distance from that base
line and angle of the bird :) ).

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Nicholas Oas]

Thank you all for your responses.

This was exactly the kind of information and opinions I was hoping to find-
way better than reading tea leaves!

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Roland Dobbins]

On 23 Jun 2015, at 3:39, Nicholas Oas wrote:


What are your experiences with the following applications?
-SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
-RDP
-SIP over SSL
-IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
-GRE Tunneling


Latency, latency, latency, RTTs, RTTs, RTTs.

Not an option for anything interactive, very poor for general user-type 
Internet access.


---
Roland Dobbins 

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 9:37 AM, Rafael Possamai  wrote:
> Reading about SIP made it seem like latency alone is not an issue, aside
> from delays which impact verbal communication as previously mentioned. What
> is going to be much worse is jitter and packet loss. You can eventually get
> used to a significant delay, but dropped calls and chopped sound renders
> the service useless.

With modern software implementing a responsive jitter buffer, jitter
shouldn't be much of a problem. Practical effect would be a longer
delay as the receiver buffers enough packets to deal with the measured
variance in receipt times. Perhaps a few chops early in the
conversation as the software grows the buffer.

Not all SIP implementations are equal. Try yours in a high-jitter
environment and see what happens.

High packet loss is deadly. That'll depend on the satellite vendor's
network implementation, the weather, etc. But then high packet loss is
deadly to essentially all IP networking activity.

In situations where a high bit error rate (BER) is endemic, the
layer-2 vendor is expected to redress that with forward error
correction (FEC) and retransmission that trades jitter for loss. I
have no idea which satellite vendors are better or worse about this.

Regards,
Bill Herrin

-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Jared Mauch]

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 09:11:17PM -0400, TR Shaw wrote:
> I don’t know what your location is but a wireless internet provider using 
> Canopy or Ubiquity or whatever is much more preferable. Also cellular is used 
> in “remote” locations with good results.


Using the UBNT gear if you can put together a link is really
what you want to do.  The equipment is cheap as in disposable and if you
install it properly you should have almost no issues even with adverse
weather.  Even using something like the NSM5 back to back and constructing a
multi-link path will end up producing nice results.

Make sure you have clear line of sight and plan for any tree
growth along the route.  I've been using a WISP that has the UBNT gear for
years now with no outages attributed to the equipment.

> I have used SSH from a transatlantic flight but the delay can weigh on you ;-)

I did as well this last time on my way to europe and it worked
better than I expected.

- Jared

-- 
Jared Mauch  | pgp key available via finger from ja...@puck.nether.net
clue++;  | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/  My statements are only mine.

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Rafael Possamai]

Reading about SIP made it seem like latency alone is not an issue, aside
from delays which impact verbal communication as previously mentioned. What
is going to be much worse is jitter and packet loss. You can eventually get
used to a significant delay, but dropped calls and chopped sound renders
the service useless.

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 3:44 AM, Tim Franklin  wrote:

> > Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use
> it
> > for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping
> times
> > were between 500-700ms.
>
> It really depends on your expectations - or more to the point, your
> end-users' expectations.
>
> I've tested SIP in the lab up to 2000ms RTT.  The protocols all hang
> together and keep working, but it's obviously very much in walkie-talkie
> mode, you can't hold a normal duplex conversation.  500ms there's more of
> the talking over each other / "sorry, you go" / "no, you go" dance, but it
> *is* workable.  If your end-user is expecting land-line replacement
> though...
>
> Regards,
> Tim.
>
>

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Frederik Kriewitz]

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:39 PM, Nicholas Oas  wrote:
> Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
> residential satellite internet?
>
> Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking
> specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf.
>
> What are your experiences with the following applications?
> -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
> -RDP
> -SIP over SSL
> -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
> -GRE Tunneling

Working for an satellite ISP I can give you some technical background.
We're only target enterprise/government/military customers with more
specific use cases because offering satellite based Internet to
residential customers without making them angry while being profitable
is hard. So I've no experience with HughesNet Gen4 or ViaSat Exede as
products in particular but I know the underling platforms. In general
the systems are optimized for fast browsing and VoIP from the own
operator. The modems you'll use with the mentioned services will
include all kinds of acceleration features. General acceleration of
TCP sessions to work around TCP implementation issues in combination
the the high RTT (slow start, behavior during packet loss/high jitter,
window scaling, ...) are standard for these services. The residential
services usually use additional acceleration features like HTTP
prefetching/pushing. That's usually done using a transparent HTTP
proxy which sits at the teleport analyzing all HTTP
requests/responses, download images etc. already before they are
actually requested the the end users browser. They are then pushed to
the modem which will delivery them as soon as the end user requests
them. As a result the end user doesn't have to wait another RTT for
the images etc.. Similar sniffing/spoofing acceleration options are
available for other protocols. But with end to end encryption becoming
more common these days all these transparent higher level acceleration
features of the modems, etc. no longer work. Of course you still can
do the same but you have to move the acceleration to the client
device. That's not very common yet in the satellite industry.
Regarding phone conversations our experience is that the high RTT is
not that much of an problem in practice. People recognize the delay
and wait longer before starting to talk automatically.
But the experience might vary extremely depending on the operators
config and end devices. You need corresponding QoS settings to keep
latency/jitter low and stable. For residential services the return
channel will be most likely time division multiplexed. Once the
network is congested (=profitable for the operator) you'll see the
latency go beyond 1 second more or less often without proper QoS
settings. That of course will completely break your VoIP experience.
You should expect that the operator only has corresponding QoS
settings for their own VoIP service in place. Experience with third
party services might suck due to that. Another issue you might run
into are some VoIP phones. Some of them only support very small jitter
buffers (<10ms) which might cause problems.

IPsec tunneling, GRE tunneling etc. should work perfectly fine unless
it's intentionally filtered. But as soon as you do
tunneling/encryption you should expect that you byepass any
acceleration feature or high priority QoS rule.

Besides that both products you mentioned AFAIK are using Ka-Band spot
beam satellites. There's probably roughly one beam per US state.
Assuming 200 MHz per beam that translate to roughly to a maximum of
600-700 Mbit/s downstream capacity shared by all customers in that
beam (one state). Upstream is probably designed for half of that. This
grouping of customers also makes a simple experience comparison
difficult as your experience will heavily depend on the congestion
level in your beam. From other similar services we already know that
at the launch new customers are happy (always getting the maximum
speed) but as the network fills up they get angry due to bad
performance during peak times.

I really wouldn't recommend a sysadmin to use a geo stationary
satellite based connection for your daily work unless there's no other
way - simply due to the latency. You'll notice a significant
productivity impact.

Best Regards,
Frederik Kriewitz

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Tim Franklin]

> Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it
> for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times
> were between 500-700ms.

It really depends on your expectations - or more to the point, your end-users' 
expectations.

I've tested SIP in the lab up to 2000ms RTT.  The protocols all hang together 
and keep working, but it's obviously very much in walkie-talkie mode, you can't 
hold a normal duplex conversation.  500ms there's more of the talking over each 
other / "sorry, you go" / "no, you go" dance, but it *is* workable.  If your 
end-user is expecting land-line replacement though...

Regards,
Tim.

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Dave Taht]

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Michael Conlen  wrote:
>
> On Jun 22, 2015, at 4:39 PM, Nicholas Oas  wrote:
>
>> Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
>> residential satellite internet?
>>
>> Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking
>> specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf.
>
> My experience with geostationary was that latencies were around 720 ms in 
> practice. Telnet was painful and it turns out my brain didn’t like typing 
> things while I wasn’t getting instant feedback, though I understand there’s 
> software for that problem now.

Mosh makes latencies like this a lot less painful. Still painful.

> Reliability was pretty good unless the satellite I was using happened to lose 
> it’s control processors. I was using Panamsat Galaxy 4 when it failed. I 
> don’t know how many angry phone calls we got about why we weren’t answering 
> our pages about the entire network being down before we got into the office. 
> In our case recovery involved getting access to another satellite and having 
> people re-aim the dishes.
>
> My only real recollection besides that was that the signal was bad 
> enough/long enough to induce TCP Silly Window Syndrome; but I can’t imagine 
> anyone’s running an OS that old anymore.
>
> —
> Mike
>



-- 
Dave Täht
worldwide bufferbloat report:
http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/bufferbloat
And:
What will it take to vastly improve wifi for everyone?
https://plus.google.com/u/0/explore/makewififast

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Mikael Abrahamsson]

On Mon, 22 Jun 2015, Michael Conlen wrote:

typing things while I wasn’t getting instant feedback, though I 
understand there’s software for that problem now.


Yes, https://mosh.mit.edu/ is your friend if you want to do things 
interactively.


Still, satellite is painful, avoid if anything else decent is available.

--
Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Dave Crocker]

On 6/22/2015 6:01 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> SSH client/server authors would do well to learn the lessons of telnet line 
> mode.


Too bad the RCTE Telnet option never got popular...

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[TR Shaw]

I don’t know what your location is but a wireless internet provider using 
Canopy or Ubiquity or whatever is much more preferable. Also cellular is used 
in “remote” locations with good results.

I know plenty of people "in the bush” that use these alternatives over VSat.  I 
use the above over VSat when I am out on fishing trips to remote locations. 

For truly remote where there is no options other than VSat  you need to 
live with the latency problems for now. Iridum is currently too slow and too 
costly.  Maybe LEO or MEO in the future but not now.

I have used SSH from a transatlantic flight but the delay can weigh on you ;-)

Tom

> On Jun 22, 2015, at 8:18 PM, Alfred Olton  wrote:
> 
> I had Hughes Net a few years back and can confirm that SSH access was
> pretty much intolerable for me.
> The delay between what I was typing, and when it would actually show up on
> the screen in the remote terminal was really annoying for me.
> As mentioned in previous responses, I think you would want a low orbit
> satellite internet provider, if you can find one for residential use.
> 
> In my case, I had a land line, but was too far out for ADSL, so I ended up
> getting ISDN (*with unlimited local calling on my phone plan*).
> Of course the SSH usage experience then was much better.
> 
> Al
> 
> On 06/22/2015 04:04 PM, Hugo Slabbert wrote:> Personally, 500-700ms of
> delay is well within distinguishable range and
>> causes challenges in verbal communication.  If the speakers are both
>> expecting and accustomed to delay like that (e.g. sailors that are used
>> to being hundreds/thousands of miles away from anywhere and any other
>> comms solution sucks anyway), it could be workable.
>> 
>> For regular consumer/business voice applications, 100ms and lower is
>> decent, but above that starts to get into various degrees of suckage.
>> 
>> Just my 2c.
>> 
>> --
>> Hugo
>> 
>> On Mon 2015-Jun-22 15:54:49 -0700, Mike Lyon  wrote:
>> 
>>> I never had good luck with VSAT and SIP. Maybe you had a better kit
>>> than I
>>> did :)
>>> 
>>> -Mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Dovid Bender 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would
>>>> use it
>>>> for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping
>>>> times
>>>> were between 500-700ms.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Dovid
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Mike Lyon 
>>>> Sender: "NANOG" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43
>>>> To: Nicholas Oas; NANOG
>>>> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences?
>>>> 
>>>> SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck.
>>>> 
>>>> Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area?
>>>> Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you.
>>>> 
>>>> -Mike
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
>>>>> residential satellite internet?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm
>>>> thinking
>>>>> specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not
>>>> surf.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What are your experiences with the following applications?
>>>>> -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
>>>>> -RDP
>>>>> -SIP over SSL
>>>>> -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
>>>>> -GRE Tunneling
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Nicholas
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Lyon
>>>> 408-621-4826
>>>> mike.l...@gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Mike Lyon
>>> 408-621-4826
>>> mike.l...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Jun 22, 2015, at 5:27 PM, Scott Weeks  wrote:

> I do SSH over geostationary satellite links (C-band) all
> the time.  I'd say it's slow, but not excruciating, unless
> you type really fast on the network device's CLI.  :-)

SSH client/server authors would do well to learn the lessons of telnet line 
mode.

As would authors of 'interactive' command line applications.  The NVT concept 
is still useful in this day and age, far beyond the LA36. (I.e., if the termcap 
entry says 'dumb', honour it. There is a damn good reason we are saying 'turn 
off the bling'.)

--lyndon



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Fwd: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Alfred Olton]

I had Hughes Net a few years back and can confirm that SSH access was
pretty much intolerable for me.
The delay between what I was typing, and when it would actually show up on
the screen in the remote terminal was really annoying for me.
As mentioned in previous responses, I think you would want a low orbit
satellite internet provider, if you can find one for residential use.

In my case, I had a land line, but was too far out for ADSL, so I ended up
getting ISDN (*with unlimited local calling on my phone plan*).
Of course the SSH usage experience then was much better.

Al

On 06/22/2015 04:04 PM, Hugo Slabbert wrote:> Personally, 500-700ms of
delay is well within distinguishable range and
> causes challenges in verbal communication.  If the speakers are both
> expecting and accustomed to delay like that (e.g. sailors that are used
> to being hundreds/thousands of miles away from anywhere and any other
> comms solution sucks anyway), it could be workable.
>
> For regular consumer/business voice applications, 100ms and lower is
> decent, but above that starts to get into various degrees of suckage.
>
> Just my 2c.
>
> --
> Hugo
>
> On Mon 2015-Jun-22 15:54:49 -0700, Mike Lyon  wrote:
>
>> I never had good luck with VSAT and SIP. Maybe you had a better kit
>> than I
>> did :)
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Dovid Bender 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would
>>> use it
>>> for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping
>>> times
>>> were between 500-700ms.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dovid
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Mike Lyon 
>>> Sender: "NANOG" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43
>>> To: Nicholas Oas; NANOG
>>> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences?
>>>
>>> SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck.
>>>
>>> Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area?
>>> Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you.
>>>
>>> -Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
>>> > residential satellite internet?
>>> >
>>> > Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm
>>> thinking
>>> > specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not
>>> surf.
>>> >
>>> > What are your experiences with the following applications?
>>> > -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
>>> > -RDP
>>> > -SIP over SSL
>>> > -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
>>> > -GRE Tunneling
>>> >
>>> > Thank you,
>>> >
>>> > -Nicholas
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mike Lyon
>>> 408-621-4826
>>> mike.l...@gmail.com
>>>
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mike Lyon
>> 408-621-4826
>> mike.l...@gmail.com
>>
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Scott Weeks]

--- b...@herrin.us wrote:
From: William Herrin 

Two-way satellite systems based on SV's in geostationary orbit (like
the two you're considering) have high latency. 22,000 miles out,
another 22,000 miles back and do it again for the return packet.
You'll start around 500ms latency and go up from there. Any kind of
interactive session (like SSH and RDP) will be excruciating.
---


I do SSH over geostationary satellite links (C-band) all 
the time.  I'd say it's slow, but not excruciating, unless 
you type really fast on the network device's CLI.  :-)

scott

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Michael Conlen]

On Jun 22, 2015, at 4:39 PM, Nicholas Oas  wrote:

> Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
> residential satellite internet?
> 
> Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking
> specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf.

My experience with geostationary was that latencies were around 720 ms in 
practice. Telnet was painful and it turns out my brain didn’t like typing 
things while I wasn’t getting instant feedback, though I understand there’s 
software for that problem now. 

Reliability was pretty good unless the satellite I was using happened to lose 
it’s control processors. I was using Panamsat Galaxy 4 when it failed. I don’t 
know how many angry phone calls we got about why we weren’t answering our pages 
about the entire network being down before we got into the office. In our case 
recovery involved getting access to another satellite and having people re-aim 
the dishes. 

My only real recollection besides that was that the signal was bad enough/long 
enough to induce TCP Silly Window Syndrome; but I can’t imagine anyone’s 
running an OS that old anymore. 

—
Mike

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Mike Hale]

I too have had customers in a previous life where the 500ms delay
really didn't cause any big issue.

Same with SSH and even heavier stuff like SMB.  Sure, it was slower
than expected, but I could still saturate the pipe pretty good.

Thing is...the kind of setups where you're getting 500ms delay with
little jitter is stupidly expensive.  Those are generally going to be
an SCPC (single carrier per channel) uplink with hopefully something
like IP over DVB providing a large pool of downlink bandwidth.  Expect
to pay over 4k per Megahertz (roughly translated to 1 Mbps
unidirectional depending your link budgets) of bandwidth (sometimes
substantially more, depending on what bird and provider you're using).

O3B looks really interesting.  I'm not aware of what they're current
state of deployment is, but they've got a MEO (I think) constellation
planned which will help a lot of with that latency.  Viasat had
something that looked promising too.

I mean..if you're looking at doing sysadmin type stuff where you're
already going to be pulling out your hair at times, doing so over
hughesnet is going to suuck.


On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Hugo Slabbert  wrote:
> Personally, 500-700ms of delay is well within distinguishable range and
> causes challenges in verbal communication.  If the speakers are both
> expecting and accustomed to delay like that (e.g. sailors that are used to
> being hundreds/thousands of miles away from anywhere and any other comms
> solution sucks anyway), it could be workable.
>
> For regular consumer/business voice applications, 100ms and lower is decent,
> but above that starts to get into various degrees of suckage.
>
> Just my 2c.
>
> --
> Hugo
>
>
> On Mon 2015-Jun-22 15:54:49 -0700, Mike Lyon  wrote:
>
>> I never had good luck with VSAT and SIP. Maybe you had a better kit than I
>> did :)
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Dovid Bender  wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use
>>> it
>>> for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping
>>> times
>>> were between 500-700ms.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dovid
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Mike Lyon 
>>> Sender: "NANOG" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43
>>> To: Nicholas Oas; NANOG
>>> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences?
>>>
>>> SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck.
>>>
>>> Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area?
>>> Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you.
>>>
>>> -Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
>>> > residential satellite internet?
>>> >
>>> > Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm
>>> thinking
>>> > specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not
>>> surf.
>>> >
>>> > What are your experiences with the following applications?
>>> > -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
>>> > -RDP
>>> > -SIP over SSL
>>> > -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
>>> > -GRE Tunneling
>>> >
>>> > Thank you,
>>> >
>>> > -Nicholas
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mike Lyon
>>> 408-621-4826
>>> mike.l...@gmail.com
>>>
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mike Lyon
>> 408-621-4826
>> mike.l...@gmail.com
>>
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon



-- 
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Hugo Slabbert]

Personally, 500-700ms of delay is well within distinguishable range and 
causes challenges in verbal communication.  If the speakers are both 
expecting and accustomed to delay like that (e.g. sailors that are used to 
being hundreds/thousands of miles away from anywhere and any other comms 
solution sucks anyway), it could be workable.


For regular consumer/business voice applications, 100ms and lower is 
decent, but above that starts to get into various degrees of suckage.


Just my 2c.

--
Hugo

On Mon 2015-Jun-22 15:54:49 -0700, Mike Lyon  wrote:


I never had good luck with VSAT and SIP. Maybe you had a better kit than I
did :)

-Mike


On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Dovid Bender  wrote:


Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it
for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times
were between 500-700ms.



Regards,

Dovid

-Original Message-
From: Mike Lyon 
Sender: "NANOG" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43
To: Nicholas Oas; NANOG
Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck.

Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area?
Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you.

-Mike


On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas 
wrote:

> Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
> residential satellite internet?
>
> Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm
thinking
> specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not
surf.
>
> What are your experiences with the following applications?
> -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
> -RDP
> -SIP over SSL
> -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
> -GRE Tunneling
>
> Thank you,
>
> -Nicholas
>



--
Mike Lyon
408-621-4826
mike.l...@gmail.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon





--
Mike Lyon
408-621-4826
mike.l...@gmail.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon


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Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Mike Lyon]

I never had good luck with VSAT and SIP. Maybe you had a better kit than I
did :)

-Mike


On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Dovid Bender  wrote:

> Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it
> for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times
> were between 500-700ms.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dovid
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mike Lyon 
> Sender: "NANOG" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43
> To: Nicholas Oas; NANOG
> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences?
>
> SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck.
>
> Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area?
> Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you.
>
> -Mike
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas 
> wrote:
>
> > Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
> > residential satellite internet?
> >
> > Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm
> thinking
> > specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not
> surf.
> >
> > What are your experiences with the following applications?
> > -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
> > -RDP
> > -SIP over SSL
> > -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
> > -GRE Tunneling
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > -Nicholas
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Mike Lyon
> 408-621-4826
> mike.l...@gmail.com
>
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
>



-- 
Mike Lyon
408-621-4826
mike.l...@gmail.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Dovid Bender]

Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it for 
sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times were 
between 500-700ms.



Regards,

Dovid

-Original Message-
From: Mike Lyon 
Sender: "NANOG" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43 
To: Nicholas Oas; NANOG
Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck.

Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area?
Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you.

-Mike


On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas 
wrote:

> Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
> residential satellite internet?
>
> Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking
> specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf.
>
> What are your experiences with the following applications?
> -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
> -RDP
> -SIP over SSL
> -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
> -GRE Tunneling
>
> Thank you,
>
> -Nicholas
>



-- 
Mike Lyon
408-621-4826
mike.l...@gmail.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Fred Baker (fred)]

> On Jun 22, 2015, at 3:11 PM, William Herrin  wrote:
> 
> Two-way satellite systems based on SV's in geostationary orbit (like
> the two you're considering) have high latency. 22,000 miles out,
> another 22,000 miles back and do it again for the return packet.
> You'll start around 500ms latency and go up from there. Any kind of
> interactive session (like SSH and RDP) will be excruciating.

It is indeed. This is first-hand in the sense that I once worked for an earth 
station manufacturer and did a fair bit of work related to this environment, 
and second-hand in that my sister, for a while, used VSAT connectivity to her 
home.

The trick in the context is what's called a "performance-enhancing proxy", or 
PEP. What it does, in concept, is terminate a TCP connection at each earth 
station and use some form of private protocol over the bird. Cisco RBSCP (which 
maps TCP connections to SCTP sessions over the bird, 
http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/interface/configuration/15-sy/ir-15-sy-book/ir-rt-bsd-sat.html)
 is an example of such a technology. The obvious benefit of a PEP is that it 
can convince a TCP sender to keep enough data in flight to make good use of the 
throughput rate of the satellite - you have a start-up issue with the first 
RTT, but after that it has essentially figured out what the effective window 
should be and makes that happen. The downside of a PEP is when the application 
is itself interactive (it's not about rate, it's about responsiveness clocked 
by end-to-end RTT) or the protocol in question isn't TCP (noting that TCP in 
IPsec ESP isn't TCP to the PEP - it's IPsec ESP, and can't be goosed along).

In my sister's case, her description of the service was somewhat colorful, and 
included the word "slow".


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Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[Mike Lyon]

SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck.

Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area?
Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you.

-Mike


On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas 
wrote:

> Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
> residential satellite internet?
>
> Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking
> specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf.
>
> What are your experiences with the following applications?
> -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
> -RDP
> -SIP over SSL
> -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
> -GRE Tunneling
>
> Thank you,
>
> -Nicholas
>



-- 
Mike Lyon
408-621-4826
mike.l...@gmail.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon

Re: Residential VSAT experiences?

[William Herrin]

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Nicholas Oas  wrote:
> Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
> residential satellite internet?

Hi Nicholas,

Two-way satellite systems based on SV's in geostationary orbit (like
the two you're considering) have high latency. 22,000 miles out,
another 22,000 miles back and do it again for the return packet.
You'll start around 500ms latency and go up from there. Any kind of
interactive session (like SSH and RDP) will be excruciating.

I'm not aware of any low earth orbit systems providing residential
Internet. Iridium tries to but the bandwidth is pathetic (2400bps or
so). LEO vehicles are only 500-1000 miles up. Latency is high compared
to wireline systems but within usable bounds for interactive sessions.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Residential VSAT experiences?

[Nicholas Oas]

Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
residential satellite internet?

Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking
specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf.

What are your experiences with the following applications?
-SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
-RDP
-SIP over SSL
-IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
-GRE Tunneling

Thank you,

-Nicholas