RE: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
Rod, do you know if the 40G waves increased the spectrum efficiency of your fiber? On land systems they pretty much break even, i.e. you can have a 100GHz 40G channels or 4x25GHz 10G channels but at the end of the day you still get the same amount of signal out of the fiber. I don't know whats being done on undersea cables though. Eventually this will get better too, and 40G will become the native wavelength standard with 10G being muxed onto them, similar to what we saw with the transition from 2.5G-10G 10 years ago. -- Richard A Steenbergen r...@e-gerbil.net http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC) Rod. This is direct from engineering: The number of wavelengths or channels Hibernia have on their DWDM infrastructure remains the same, however now each wave can be at a rate of 40Gb/s instead of only 10Gb/s. In the extreme case, we get 4 times the capacity, but in reality, because of the existing installed 10G's, we would not necessarily swap out all existing cards. We could say the overall increase in capacity is up-to 4 times. The enabling technology is based on advanced encoding techniques allowing a greater rate of symbol transfer.
bits/hz/second: we're barely more efficient than the telegraph (Re: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
I'll comment on both: On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Rod Beckrod.b...@hiberniaatlantic.com wrote: Rod, do you know if the 40G waves increased the spectrum efficiency of your fiber? On land systems they pretty much break even, i.e. you can [rod beck replies] The enabling technology is based on advanced encoding techniques allowing a greater rate of symbol transfer. Looking back in Google and other IEEE papers, the previous 20 years of interfacing our abstract bits to the real world via photons hasn't been met with terribly high efficiencies, though we certainly have seen both great progress in the transmitter (who could have imagined a VCSEL in 1985?) and receiver technology, and of course a significant improvement in usable bits/sec. I can only wonder what the curve of optical spectral efficiency we achieve over the next decades will resemble. Perhaps we'll have to wait for a Shannon of Optics to stand up (or quit their day job at whatever modern-day version of $bell_labs they're stuck working for) and point out something obvious we're missing. A bit of sobering reality I often consider is we waited roughly a century to progress from where Marconi began to the present day, where we have cheap radios doing 12 bits/hz/sec costing about $20k (a pair). Clearly a key difference is that people are paying (allot, propotionately) to communicate $stuff and folks value networks more than they did previously - so we're not in the same position folks were pre-1900's, struggling to find a market for their crazy wires across the sea. For the experts out there: how long are we going to wait for something more efficient than morse code over twisted pairs? -Tk
RE: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
It seems intuitive, but according to basic queuing theory splitting up a single channel into N fixed smaller channels makes the response time (T), N times worse, where T= (queuing + transmission time). -Original Message- From: Rod Beck [mailto:rod.b...@hiberniaatlantic.com] Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:14 AM To: Richard A Steenbergen Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves Rod, do you know if the 40G waves increased the spectrum efficiency of your fiber? On land systems they pretty much break even, i.e. you can have a 100GHz 40G channels or 4x25GHz 10G channels but at the end of the day you still get the same amount of signal out of the fiber. I don't know whats being done on undersea cables though. Eventually this will get better too, and 40G will become the native wavelength standard with 10G being muxed onto them, similar to what we saw with the transition from 2.5G-10G 10 years ago. -- Richard A Steenbergen r...@e-gerbil.net http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC) Rod. This is direct from engineering: The number of wavelengths or channels Hibernia have on their DWDM infrastructure remains the same, however now each wave can be at a rate of 40Gb/s instead of only 10Gb/s. In the extreme case, we get 4 times the capacity, but in reality, because of the existing installed 10G's, we would not necessarily swap out all existing cards. We could say the overall increase in capacity is up-to 4 times. The enabling technology is based on advanced encoding techniques allowing a greater rate of symbol transfer.
RE: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009, Rod Beck wrote: Rod, do you know if the 40G waves increased the spectrum efficiency of your fiber? On land systems they pretty much break even, i.e. you can have a 100GHz 40G channels or 4x25GHz 10G channels but at the end of the day you still get the same amount of signal out of the fiber. I don't know whats being done on undersea cables though. Eventually this will get better too, and 40G will become the native wavelength standard with 10G being muxed onto them, similar to what we saw with the transition from 2.5G-10G 10 years ago. Think of this as the natural progression equivalent to the evolution of speed over phone lines, from 300bps to 56k, ie use of DSPs to get more out of the available spectral capacity. 10G is generally pretty simple NRZ, 40/100G is much more complex using multiple bit per baud and/or polarization. http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-55/presentations/lothberg-40-gb-to-my-mother.pdf (around page 34 is where the stuff you're asking about comes in) My guess is that 100G will be available and being rolled out before 40G is widely used, thus we'll wont see much 40G in DWDM systems, at least not with the current encoding standards (because they don't fit directly into 10G systems as they have higher requirements). -- Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se
Re: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
In November 24th 2008 Sunet together with Telia and Sprint reached 40Gb on one wavelength using TAT-14. The total length for the project was 9600 kilometers (the length of Sweden plus TAT-14). The Swedish article can be found here http://techworld.idg.se/2.2524/1.215856/sunet-forst-med-40-gigabit-per-sekund-under-atlanten
RE: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
Obviously using 40 gig waves as the foundation blocks of one's network provides some economies of scale and per unit capex cost savings. I would be curious if anyone knows how to convert this SONET/SDH 40 gig waves into a 40 gig Ethernet handoff? Afterall, OC768 route cards are a tad expensive ... Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic Budapest, New York, and Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 33+6+8692+5357. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth rod.b...@hiberniaatlantic.com i...@globalwholesalebandwidht.com ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: Matthew Moyle-Croft [mailto:m...@internode.com.au] Sent: Fri 8/14/2009 12:09 AM To: Rod Beck Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves Congrats Rod. Southern Cross and Nortel have been trialing 40Gbps waves on the 8000km segment from Hawaii to New Zealand. http://www.itnews.com.au/News/152866,southern-cross-trials-40gbps-nortel-kit.aspx The 8000km segment is a LONG way - a very long way but it should mean stability for any cable system (I'm not sure there are segments that are much longer on any other system) - the bandwidth limit hasn't been hit yet! MMC Rod Beck wrote: http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com/documents/Hibernia40GAcrossAtlanticPR-JSA2-FINAL.pdf Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic Budapest, New York, and Paris
Re: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:14:59AM +0100, Rod Beck wrote: Obviously using 40 gig waves as the foundation blocks of one's network provides some economies of scale and per unit capex cost savings. I would be curious if anyone knows how to convert this SONET/SDH 40 gig waves into a 40 gig Ethernet handoff? Afterall, OC768 route cards are a tad expensive ... I'm not aware of any solution that isn't going to be a lot more expensive than just using the native OC768 card (which isn't that expensive in crazy bankrupt carrier dollars, it's just not in the same ballpark as 10GE solutions). This in turn is going to be a lot more expensive than just running 4x10GE, for the moment. Of course native 40GE is in the works, so eventually this will make technical and financial sense, just not yet. But this is one of the major reasons I've been a proponent of 40GE standardization instead of focusing solely on 100GE, 40 maps directly to the next-generation optical technology and allows you to efficiently and affordably transport ethernet over long distances, whereas 100 is largely just a fancy cable management solution for hiding multiple parallel links (i.e. 10x10G) within a datacenter. Rod, do you know if the 40G waves increased the spectrum efficiency of your fiber? On land systems they pretty much break even, i.e. you can have a 100GHz 40G channels or 4x25GHz 10G channels but at the end of the day you still get the same amount of signal out of the fiber. I don't know whats being done on undersea cables though. Eventually this will get better too, and 40G will become the native wavelength standard with 10G being muxed onto them, similar to what we saw with the transition from 2.5G-10G 10 years ago. -- Richard A Steenbergen r...@e-gerbil.net http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
RE: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
-Original Message- From: Richard A Steenbergen [mailto:r...@e-gerbil.net] Sent: Fri 8/14/2009 2:17 PM To: Rod Beck Cc: Matthew Moyle-Croft; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:14:59AM +0100, Rod Beck wrote: Obviously using 40 gig waves as the foundation blocks of one's network provides some economies of scale and per unit capex cost savings. I would be curious if anyone knows how to convert this SONET/SDH 40 gig waves into a 40 gig Ethernet handoff? Afterall, OC768 route cards are a tad expensive ... I'm not aware of any solution that isn't going to be a lot more expensive than just using the native OC768 card (which isn't that expensive in crazy bankrupt carrier dollars, it's just not in the same ballpark as 10GE solutions). This in turn is going to be a lot more expensive than just running 4x10GE, for the moment. Of course native 40GE is in the works, so eventually this will make technical and financial sense, just not yet. But this is one of the major reasons I've been a proponent of 40GE standardization instead of focusing solely on 100GE, 40 maps directly to the next-generation optical technology and allows you to efficiently and affordably transport ethernet over long distances, whereas 100 is largely just a fancy cable management solution for hiding multiple parallel links (i.e. 10x10G) within a datacenter. Rod, do you know if the 40G waves increased the spectrum efficiency of your fiber? On land systems they pretty much break even, i.e. you can have a 100GHz 40G channels or 4x25GHz 10G channels but at the end of the day you still get the same amount of signal out of the fiber. I don't know whats being done on undersea cables though. Eventually this will get better too, and 40G will become the native wavelength standard with 10G being muxed onto them, similar to what we saw with the transition from 2.5G-10G 10 years ago. -- Richard A Steenbergen r...@e-gerbil.net http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC) Agreed. I think it was a mistake to put all the effort into 100 GigE when it is not even clear a lot of fibre can support 100 Gig waves. As I understand the bit rate depends on the geometrical properties of the fibre. And yes, IP engineers are telling me is that there are no economically viable 40 gig SONET/Ethernet conversion boxes. My understanding is that we are getting a big spectrum efficiency gain. The press release states the system's potential is 10.16 terabits. Before the upgrade, it was 6.4 terabits or 80 10 gig waves per fibre pair (two cables, four fiber pairs each). I will check that figure.
RE: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
-Original Message- From: Matthew Moyle-Croft [mailto:m...@internode.com.au] Sent: Fri 8/14/2009 12:09 AM To: Rod Beck Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves Congrats Rod. Southern Cross and Nortel have been trialing 40Gbps waves on the 8000km segment from Hawaii to New Zealand. http://www.itnews.com.au/News/152866,southern-cross-trials-40gbps-nortel-kit.aspx The 8000km segment is a LONG way - a very long way but it should mean stability for any cable system (I'm not sure there are segments that are much longer on any other system) - the bandwidth limit hasn't been hit yet! MMC Rod Beck wrote: http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com/documents/Hibernia40GAcrossAtlanticPR-JSA2-FINAL.pdf Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic Budapest, New York, and Paris Well, the funny thing is that when I approached bandwidth buyers at some well known publicly traded carriers, they told me that 40 gig waves across the Atlantic were impossible. Quite common response. Indeed, when we decided to launch LAN PHY 10 GigE, the builder of our cable system told us it wasn't possible.
Re: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:55:36 BST, Rod Beck said: Well, the funny thing is that when I approached bandwidth buyers at some well known publicly traded carriers, they told me that 40 gig waves across the Atlantic were impossible. Theoretically impossible, or just impossible on the fiber that's already underwater? Big difference there. Indeed, when we decided to launch LAN PHY 10 GigE, the builder of our cable system told us it wasn't possible. Again, was this impossible on a cable the builder was about to build, or impossible on the cable that the builder put under the water already? pgpdwcfYeoZDM.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
-Original Message- From: valdis.kletni...@vt.edu [mailto:valdis.kletni...@vt.edu] Sent: Fri 8/14/2009 8:12 PM To: Rod Beck Cc: Matthew Moyle-Croft; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:55:36 BST, Rod Beck said: Well, the funny thing is that when I approached bandwidth buyers at some well known publicly traded carriers, they told me that 40 gig waves across the Atlantic were impossible. Theoretically impossible, or just impossible on the fiber that's already underwater? Big difference there. Impossilbe on the existing undersea cables. Indeed, when we decided to launch LAN PHY 10 GigE, the builder of our cable system told us it wasn't possible. Again, was this impossible on a cable the builder was about to build, or impossible on the cable that the builder put under the water already? Impossible on our cable. The one they built.
RE: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
Well, the funny thing is that when I approached bandwidth buyers at some well known publicly traded carriers, they told me that 40 gig waves across the Atlantic were impossible. Theoretically impossible, or just impossible on the fiber that's already underwater? Big difference there. Indeed, when we decided to launch LAN PHY 10 GigE, the builder of our cable system told us it wasn't possible. Again, was this impossible on a cable the builder was about to build, or impossible on the cable that the builder put under the water already? 1) 40G across large bodies of water is a nice achievement, kudos to everyone involved everywhere. 2) Even on cables that are already deployed where impossible things couldn't happen, have. It just takes a little longer for the technology involved. Case in point, I point to DSL over legacy (old) copper plants. Even super old fiber in the ground can do things that were originally considered impossible. For existing undersea systems (whomever owns them) inline amplifiers as well as cable issues need to be ironed out. Now that folks know the cost of rolling out a new cable vs the cost of engineering specialized solutions for those sorts of spans, they have decisions to make... but I have (and it has been proven) faith in technology to the impossible works... it just takes some time. :) 25Ghz spacing wasn't possible 5 years ago either. And there is hfDWDM spacing in labs somewhere too. So other than for the folks that are provisioning 40G or who are considering deploying their own systems... what's the big deal? Deepak
Re: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
pos oc-768 pre standard 40G lr4 4 in 1 40 gig mux 100gig 10 in 1 mux with some very tight engineering tolerances probably others Mike Callahan wrote: Just out of curriousity, what type of equipment is used to terminate circuits of this capacity? My experience stops at the 10GB mark. Thanks, Mike -Original Message- From: Rod Beck [mailto:rod.b...@hiberniaatlantic.com] Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 1:34 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com/documents/Hibernia40GAcrossAtlanticPR-JSA2-FINAL.pdf Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic Budapest, New York, and Paris
Re: TransAtlantic 40 Gig Waves
Congrats Rod. Southern Cross and Nortel have been trialing 40Gbps waves on the 8000km segment from Hawaii to New Zealand. http://www.itnews.com.au/News/152866,southern-cross-trials-40gbps-nortel-kit.aspx The 8000km segment is a LONG way - a very long way but it should mean stability for any cable system (I'm not sure there are segments that are much longer on any other system) - the bandwidth limit hasn't been hit yet! MMC Rod Beck wrote: http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com/documents/Hibernia40GAcrossAtlanticPR-JSA2-FINAL.pdf Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic Budapest, New York, and Paris
