Re: VDSL >2 Pair Bonding Modems
I have found a modem with Positron that'll do up to 8 pair of bonding. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Mike Hammett" To: "nanog" Sent: Friday, April 26, 2024 3:09:07 PM Subject: VDSL >2 Pair Bonding Modems I recently figured out that my Calix E7s can bond more than 2 pair of VDSL lines. However, none of my modem vendors seem to support more than 2 pair. What modem platforms are people using in this scenario? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
VDSL >2 Pair Bonding Modems
I recently figured out that my Calix E7s can bond more than 2 pair of VDSL lines. However, none of my modem vendors seem to support more than 2 pair. What modem platforms are people using in this scenario? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
Re: VDSL
We bond 8 VDSL2 pairs together, so getting 500Mbps is easily possible if they are close to the DSLAM. On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 5:28 PM Ryland Kremeier wrote: > We provide between 250Mb/s and 1Gb/s fiber-to-the-home services to all our > subscribers. We do not use VDSL. > > I personally do not have our services in my area yet as I live at the > furthest possible point to which we will expand. So until then I use > Centurylink. > > > > *From:* Matt Harris > *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2019 9:08 AM > *To:* Ryland Kremeier > *Cc:* Rod Beck ; Nanog@nanog.org > *Subject:* Re: VDSL > > > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 8:46 AM Ryland Kremeier < > rkreme...@barryelectric.com> wrote: > > Can confirm. Currently on VDSL in rural Missouri, speed is capped at > 5Mb/s, but has the capability of 7.5Mb/s. All customers from the provider > here are on VDSL. > > > > I'm guessing from your email address that you get that from your electric > coop, too? At the state fair a couple of months ago, I had the opportunity > to speak to the guy who architected and implemented the FTTH rollout for > Ralls County electric coop, up north of StL along the IL border. They did, > from what I could tell from my conversation, everything right and were > providing gigabit services to their users even in relatively rural areas. > Hopefully you guys will get something like that going at some point soon as > well! > > >
RE: VDSL
We provide between 250Mb/s and 1Gb/s fiber-to-the-home services to all our subscribers. We do not use VDSL. I personally do not have our services in my area yet as I live at the furthest possible point to which we will expand. So until then I use Centurylink. From: Matt Harris Sent: Friday, October 18, 2019 9:08 AM To: Ryland Kremeier Cc: Rod Beck ; Nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: VDSL On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 8:46 AM Ryland Kremeier mailto:rkreme...@barryelectric.com>> wrote: Can confirm. Currently on VDSL in rural Missouri, speed is capped at 5Mb/s, but has the capability of 7.5Mb/s. All customers from the provider here are on VDSL. I'm guessing from your email address that you get that from your electric coop, too? At the state fair a couple of months ago, I had the opportunity to speak to the guy who architected and implemented the FTTH rollout for Ralls County electric coop, up north of StL along the IL border. They did, from what I could tell from my conversation, everything right and were providing gigabit services to their users even in relatively rural areas. Hopefully you guys will get something like that going at some point soon as well!
RE: VDSL
Can confirm. Currently on VDSL in rural Missouri, speed is capped at 5Mb/s, but has the capability of 7.5Mb/s. All customers from the provider here are on VDSL. From: NANOG On Behalf Of Matt Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 12:38 PM To: Rod Beck Cc: Nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: VDSL On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:25 PM Rod Beck mailto:rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com>> wrote: Hi, I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998. Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? Hey Rod, Are you sure they're using VDSL (I'm assuming you mean VDSL2 which is still in fairly wide use around the world)? 500mbit VDSL2 would have a very short run limitation afaik. It wouldn't be last mile, more like last meter. :) It's not super-widely used in the US today since Verizon and others have built out increasing FTTH networks and always had to compete with DOCSIS based services which are very widespread here, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was still frequently the "better than satellite!" service available in some rural areas that aren't too hard to reach with cabling. A decade ago, you would've seen a lot more VDSL2 deployments here in the US, though usually no more than 25 or 50 mbit capacity for the end-user. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VDSL_and_VDSL2_deployments has a bunch of interesting details though I can attest to some of them being fairly out of date.
Re: VDSL
On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 8:46 AM Ryland Kremeier wrote: > Can confirm. Currently on VDSL in rural Missouri, speed is capped at > 5Mb/s, but has the capability of 7.5Mb/s. All customers from the provider > here are on VDSL. > I'm guessing from your email address that you get that from your electric coop, too? At the state fair a couple of months ago, I had the opportunity to speak to the guy who architected and implemented the FTTH rollout for Ralls County electric coop, up north of StL along the IL border. They did, from what I could tell from my conversation, everything right and were providing gigabit services to their users even in relatively rural areas. Hopefully you guys will get something like that going at some point soon as well!
Re: VDSL
On 10/16/19 5:12 PM, Brandon Martin wrote: On 10/16/19 2:42 PM, Jeff Shultz wrote: But I'm confused a bit by the below - G.Fast is a twisted pair standard, last I saw - why would a cable (presumably coax) company be offering it? Are they just taking over the PTT's inside wiring? G.fast has definitions for both twisted pair and coax PHYs. That gets everybody interested. The biggest issue for the CATV operators is that the coax PHY monopolizes the cable meaning you can't use it for conventional channelized RF type services, so if the subscriber wants cable TV in addition to IP service, you either have to have a side-by-side IPTV deployment or revert to running DOCSIS over channelized RF next to your linear TV system. I've seen micro fiber-fed DOCSIS nodes for this purpose. DOCSIS 3.1 with a good RF budget and lots of channel space can get a few gigs of bandwidth which is quite usable for a midsize MDU. Chuck one of those down in the telco room, and you're good to feed potentially a couple hundred units using traditional DOCSIS+linear TV which is what people expect from a CATV operator. Anyone who just wants IP service and ends up wanting tons of bandwidth can get moved over to packet-fed G.fast as needed. As somebody who stopped using satellite/cable about a year ago, I can't see any reason why you'd want to get a cable package when you can get an over the top package for about $60 less. Yes, hulu and youtube's UI's suck, but that's a curable problem. I do this on a 25Mb dsl link and it works just fine. Cable tv qua cable tv is doomed. Mike
Re: VDSL
On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 09:45:35 +0100 (BST), "t...@pelican.org" may have written: > The chickens have come home to roost now though, as they're struggling to > find a cool branding for the subsequent FTTP roll-out, and not getting > any better than "full fibre", a.k.a "we lied to you last time, but this > time it really is..." "We mispelt it last time - it should have been 'fibber broadband'; this time it's proper 'fibre broadband'" -- Mike Meredith, University of Portsmouth Hostmaster, Security, and Chief Systems Engineer pgpBXst7CoQwF.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: VDSL
On Wednesday, 16 October, 2019 19:42, "Jeff Shultz" said: > Just like any broadband deployed by a Telco gets called "DSL" these > days - even if it's 1G fiber. And even by those in the industry who > should know better. We have the opposite problem in the UK - the VDSL (FTTC) roll-out was branded as "fibre broadband", much the annoyance of pretty much everyone I know in the industry. The chickens have come home to roost now though, as they're struggling to find a cool branding for the subsequent FTTP roll-out, and not getting any better than "full fibre", a.k.a "we lied to you last time, but this time it really is..." Regards, Tim.
Re: VDSL
On 10/16/19 2:42 PM, Jeff Shultz wrote: But I'm confused a bit by the below - G.Fast is a twisted pair standard, last I saw - why would a cable (presumably coax) company be offering it? Are they just taking over the PTT's inside wiring? G.fast has definitions for both twisted pair and coax PHYs. That gets everybody interested. The biggest issue for the CATV operators is that the coax PHY monopolizes the cable meaning you can't use it for conventional channelized RF type services, so if the subscriber wants cable TV in addition to IP service, you either have to have a side-by-side IPTV deployment or revert to running DOCSIS over channelized RF next to your linear TV system. I've seen micro fiber-fed DOCSIS nodes for this purpose. DOCSIS 3.1 with a good RF budget and lots of channel space can get a few gigs of bandwidth which is quite usable for a midsize MDU. Chuck one of those down in the telco room, and you're good to feed potentially a couple hundred units using traditional DOCSIS+linear TV which is what people expect from a CATV operator. Anyone who just wants IP service and ends up wanting tons of bandwidth can get moved over to packet-fed G.fast as needed. -- Brandon Martin
Re: VDSL
Just like any broadband deployed by a Telco gets called "DSL" these days - even if it's 1G fiber. And even by those in the industry who should know better. Annoying. But I'm confused a bit by the below - G.Fast is a twisted pair standard, last I saw - why would a cable (presumably coax) company be offering it? Are they just taking over the PTT's inside wiring? On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 1:26 AM Rod Beck wrote: > > Well, the cable company here is offering 500 megs to the entire 5 story > building. My guess is that this G fast standard is what is being deployed > here and they loosely call it 'VDSL'. > > -- Jeff Shultz -- Like us on Social Media for News, Promotions, and other information!! <https://www.facebook.com/SCTCWEB/> <https://www.instagram.com/sctc_503/> <https://www.yelp.com/biz/sctc-stayton-3> <https://www.youtube.com/c/sctcvideos> _ This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. _
Re: VDSL
Am 15.10.19 um 19:51 schrieb Eric Dugas: Bell Canada still uses a lot of VDSL2 last-miles in Quebec and Ontario. Max speed is 100/10 over bonded pairs and 50/10 over a single pair over short distances. Generally served from a fiber-fed DSLAM and less than 500 meters. In Germany 250/40 is possible over a single pair within 300 meters using VDSL2 Annex Q 35b, the telcos offers it as "super vectoring".
Re: VDSL
Well, the cable company here is offering 500 megs to the entire 5 story building. My guess is that this G fast standard is what is being deployed here and they loosely call it 'VDSL'. From: NANOG on behalf of Brandon Martin Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:16 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: VDSL On 10/15/19 8:25 PM, Brielle wrote: > Its actually got pretty heavy use in a lot of CenturyLink areas, like > here in Boise. Fiber is only now starting to become the norm, so > everyone is on VDSL2 in single or bonded modes, speeds all the way up to > around 50mbit down. AT U-Verse in ex-SBC territories basically was their deployment of VDSL/VDSL2 back when it was new. Some installs used bonded ADSL2+ where they didn't have a node close enough to really get any advantage of VDSL. These days, it's their catch-all name for anything that isn't classic ADSL served out of the CO, including their (very limited and apparently halted) FTTH deployment. VDSL is still very prevalent. I'm not in a territory served by it, but I know plenty of people nearby who are and, unless you happen to be on a FTTH path (which means you're either in select MDUs or happen to be on the path they took to get to one), you're getting VDSL2 if you call them up and order U-Verse Internet service. They deliver up to 100Mbps with pair-bonded VDSL2 assuming you're close enough to the node. -- Brandon Martin
Re: VDSL
On 10/15/19 1:51 PM, Rod Beck wrote: These are large 19th century buildings with courtyards. I have seen lots of activity on this street - fiber being pulled from manhole and gear being installed in cable manholes. Corning on the cables. Sounds like a fiber-to-the-curb deployment with G.FAST as the last "mile". They run fiber to the nearest pedestal then install a small G.FAST ONU/DPU at the pedestal fed by that fiber then delivering potentially 500-1000Mbps over the last few 100ft into the existing building on existing copper. Saves them from having to pull new drops which can get very expensive. It's a bit of a stop-gap to a full FTTH deployment, but it'll get you very usable service for now and is relatively easily upgraded to full FTTH in the future by just pulling a real fiber drop and hooking it up to the existing fiber that's being used to feed the G.FAST ONU/DPU. A lot of the G.FAST ONU/DPUs support VDSL2 fallback which they'll use if the copper turns out to be especially terrible, too long, or the customer doesn't want more than 50-100Mbps since the VDSL CPEs are somewhat significantly cheaper than G.FAST. Might be where "VDSL" came from. -- Brandon Martin
Re: VDSL
On 10/15/19 8:25 PM, Brielle wrote: Its actually got pretty heavy use in a lot of CenturyLink areas, like here in Boise. Fiber is only now starting to become the norm, so everyone is on VDSL2 in single or bonded modes, speeds all the way up to around 50mbit down. AT U-Verse in ex-SBC territories basically was their deployment of VDSL/VDSL2 back when it was new. Some installs used bonded ADSL2+ where they didn't have a node close enough to really get any advantage of VDSL. These days, it's their catch-all name for anything that isn't classic ADSL served out of the CO, including their (very limited and apparently halted) FTTH deployment. VDSL is still very prevalent. I'm not in a territory served by it, but I know plenty of people nearby who are and, unless you happen to be on a FTTH path (which means you're either in select MDUs or happen to be on the path they took to get to one), you're getting VDSL2 if you call them up and order U-Verse Internet service. They deliver up to 100Mbps with pair-bonded VDSL2 assuming you're close enough to the node. -- Brandon Martin
Re: VDSL
On 10/15/2019 11:37 AM, Matt Harris wrote: It's not super-widely used in the US today Its actually got pretty heavy use in a lot of CenturyLink areas, like here in Boise. Fiber is only now starting to become the norm, so everyone is on VDSL2 in single or bonded modes, speeds all the way up to around 50mbit down. -- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org/ http://www.ahbl.org
Re: VDSL
Both the cable and PTT have wiring in the buildings, but I suspect it is all CAT5 or the European equivalent in each apartment. Most of these flats have not been renovated in 30 to 50 years and that is usually when the flat is renovated that wiring would get upgraded. The cable company will often insist on rewiring the flat's own wiring if it has never provided service before. From: NANOG on behalf of Rod Beck Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:55 PM To: Phil Lavin ; Nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: VDSL The PTT is limited in 50 megs in this building. However, the cable company just upgraded its network and is now offering up to 500. I assume the cable company is using coax and may be that gives them an edge when combined with VDSL to get up to 500 megs. From: Phil Lavin Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:48 PM To: Rod Beck ; Nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: VDSL > I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide > services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL > is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998. > Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? DSL on the whole seems pretty unpopular in the USA. VDSL itself is a fairly old standard but it's been enhanced over the years to provide bandwidths up to 300mbit on a single twisted copper pair, albeit over relatively short distances. DSL (these days, specifically VDSL2) is extremely popular and widely used within the UK because almost every home has a single twisted pair going into it for a POTS phone line. It made sense to run services over this than to re-cable 25 million homes. A (very) slow FTTH rollout is under way but what seems to be getting more traction is a rollout of G.Fast which currently boasts speeds of up to 500mbit over short distances (< 100m), still on a single twisted copper pair. This may be what you're getting as VDSL2 won't push to 500mbit over any sensible distance. I can only speculate on why they decided to use DSL in your building - if it has legacy POTS infrastructure to each apartment, it would make some sense. If not, who knows...
Re: VDSL
That's what I would expect. A Gfast ONU in the building with fiber backhaul. You can use legacy Cat3 pair or coax to get from the Telco closet to each suite. That's basically what Gfast is for. --TimH On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:51:50 + Rod Beck wrote: > These are large 19th century buildings with courtyards. I have seen lots of > activity on this street - fiber being pulled from manhole and gear being > installed in cable manholes. Corning on the cables. > > Regards, > > Roderick. > > > From: NANOG on behalf of Tim Howe > > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:47 PM > To: Nanog@nanog.org > Subject: Re: VDSL > > On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:24:44 + > Rod Beck wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to > > provide services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are > > located. VDSL is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking > > about it back in 1998. > > > > Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? > > Sounds more like an in-building Gfast deployment, which > is /technically/ a kind of DSL. To get 500Mb on a single pair I think > you would need a distance shorter than 1000ft. This is pretty recent > tech, and a multi dwelling scenario would be the most common deployment > afaik. > > --TimH
Re: VDSL
The PTT is limited in 50 megs in this building. However, the cable company just upgraded its network and is now offering up to 500. I assume the cable company is using coax and may be that gives them an edge when combined with VDSL to get up to 500 megs. From: Phil Lavin Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:48 PM To: Rod Beck ; Nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: VDSL > I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide > services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL > is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998. > Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? DSL on the whole seems pretty unpopular in the USA. VDSL itself is a fairly old standard but it's been enhanced over the years to provide bandwidths up to 300mbit on a single twisted copper pair, albeit over relatively short distances. DSL (these days, specifically VDSL2) is extremely popular and widely used within the UK because almost every home has a single twisted pair going into it for a POTS phone line. It made sense to run services over this than to re-cable 25 million homes. A (very) slow FTTH rollout is under way but what seems to be getting more traction is a rollout of G.Fast which currently boasts speeds of up to 500mbit over short distances (< 100m), still on a single twisted copper pair. This may be what you're getting as VDSL2 won't push to 500mbit over any sensible distance. I can only speculate on why they decided to use DSL in your building - if it has legacy POTS infrastructure to each apartment, it would make some sense. If not, who knows...
Re: VDSL
These are large 19th century buildings with courtyards. I have seen lots of activity on this street - fiber being pulled from manhole and gear being installed in cable manholes. Corning on the cables. Regards, Roderick. From: NANOG on behalf of Tim Howe Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:47 PM To: Nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: VDSL On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:24:44 + Rod Beck wrote: > Hi, > > I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to > provide services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are > located. VDSL is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking > about it back in 1998. > > Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? Sounds more like an in-building Gfast deployment, which is /technically/ a kind of DSL. To get 500Mb on a single pair I think you would need a distance shorter than 1000ft. This is pretty recent tech, and a multi dwelling scenario would be the most common deployment afaik. --TimH
Re: VDSL
Bell Canada still uses a lot of VDSL2 last-miles in Quebec and Ontario. Max speed is 100/10 over bonded pairs and 50/10 over a single pair over short distances. Generally served from a fiber-fed DSLAM and less than 500 meters. On Oct 15 2019, at 1:48 pm, Rod Beck wrote: > I understand. My recollection is that the distance is like 100 meters. VDSL > is what the engineers deploying on the street told me. I think there is a > node right outside. > > > Regards, > > Roderick. > > From: Matt Harris > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:37 PM > To: Rod Beck > Cc: Nanog@nanog.org > Subject: Re: VDSL > > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:25 PM Rod Beck (mailto:rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com)> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide > > services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL > > is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998. > > > > Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? > > Hey Rod, > Are you sure they're using VDSL (I'm assuming you mean VDSL2 which is still > in fairly wide use around the world)? 500mbit VDSL2 would have a very short > run limitation afaik. It wouldn't be last mile, more like last meter. :) > > It's not super-widely used in the US today since Verizon and others have > built out increasing FTTH networks and always had to compete with DOCSIS > based services which are very widespread here, though I wouldn't be surprised > if it was still frequently the "better than satellite!" service available in > some rural areas that aren't too hard to reach with cabling. A decade ago, > you would've seen a lot more VDSL2 deployments here in the US, though usually > no more than 25 or 50 mbit capacity for the end-user. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VDSL_and_VDSL2_deployments has a bunch > of interesting details though I can attest to some of them being fairly out > of date.
RE: VDSL
> I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide > services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL > is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998. > Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? DSL on the whole seems pretty unpopular in the USA. VDSL itself is a fairly old standard but it's been enhanced over the years to provide bandwidths up to 300mbit on a single twisted copper pair, albeit over relatively short distances. DSL (these days, specifically VDSL2) is extremely popular and widely used within the UK because almost every home has a single twisted pair going into it for a POTS phone line. It made sense to run services over this than to re-cable 25 million homes. A (very) slow FTTH rollout is under way but what seems to be getting more traction is a rollout of G.Fast which currently boasts speeds of up to 500mbit over short distances (< 100m), still on a single twisted copper pair. This may be what you're getting as VDSL2 won't push to 500mbit over any sensible distance. I can only speculate on why they decided to use DSL in your building - if it has legacy POTS infrastructure to each apartment, it would make some sense. If not, who knows...
Re: VDSL
I understand. My recollection is that the distance is like 100 meters. VDSL is what the engineers deploying on the street told me. I think there is a node right outside. Regards, Roderick. From: Matt Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:37 PM To: Rod Beck Cc: Nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: VDSL On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:25 PM Rod Beck mailto:rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com>> wrote: Hi, I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998. Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? Hey Rod, Are you sure they're using VDSL (I'm assuming you mean VDSL2 which is still in fairly wide use around the world)? 500mbit VDSL2 would have a very short run limitation afaik. It wouldn't be last mile, more like last meter. :) It's not super-widely used in the US today since Verizon and others have built out increasing FTTH networks and always had to compete with DOCSIS based services which are very widespread here, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was still frequently the "better than satellite!" service available in some rural areas that aren't too hard to reach with cabling. A decade ago, you would've seen a lot more VDSL2 deployments here in the US, though usually no more than 25 or 50 mbit capacity for the end-user. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VDSL_and_VDSL2_deployments has a bunch of interesting details though I can attest to some of them being fairly out of date.
Re: VDSL
On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:24:44 + Rod Beck wrote: > Hi, > > I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to > provide services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are > located. VDSL is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking > about it back in 1998. > > Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? Sounds more like an in-building Gfast deployment, which is /technically/ a kind of DSL. To get 500Mb on a single pair I think you would need a distance shorter than 1000ft. This is pretty recent tech, and a multi dwelling scenario would be the most common deployment afaik. --TimH
Re: VDSL
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:25 PM Rod Beck wrote: > Hi, > > I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide > services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL > is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998. > > Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? > Hey Rod, Are you sure they're using VDSL (I'm assuming you mean VDSL2 which is still in fairly wide use around the world)? 500mbit VDSL2 would have a very short run limitation afaik. It wouldn't be last mile, more like last meter. :) It's not super-widely used in the US today since Verizon and others have built out increasing FTTH networks and always had to compete with DOCSIS based services which are very widespread here, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was still frequently the "better than satellite!" service available in some rural areas that aren't too hard to reach with cabling. A decade ago, you would've seen a lot more VDSL2 deployments here in the US, though usually no more than 25 or 50 mbit capacity for the end-user. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VDSL_and_VDSL2_deployments has a bunch of interesting details though I can attest to some of them being fairly out of date.
VDSL
Hi, I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998. Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side? Roderick Beck VP of Business Development United Cable Company www.unitedcablecompany.com<http://www.unitedcablecompany.com> New York City & Budapest rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com 36-70-605-5144 [1467221477350_image005.png]
Re: Outdoor ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU
The calix 844g is not an outdoor rated unit just a heads up. Typically now xdsl modems have integrated router and wireless which brings them into indoor rated type of equipment. I'm sure outdoor is out there but probably not something that's off the shelf and highly deployed. Carlos Alcantar Race Communications / Race Team Member 1325 Howard Ave. #604, Burlingame, CA. 94010 Phone: +1 415 376 3314 / car...@race.com / http://www.race.com From: NANOG <nanog-boun...@nanog.org> on behalf of Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 5:40:06 PM To: nanog@nanog.org list Subject: Re: Outdoor ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU I think Calix has a fully outdoor version of their 844G VDSL2 modem. The problem you'll run into is the cost of bringing 12VDC through a small hole in the exterior wall (from a small indoor mounted 120VAC to 12VDC power supply) or outdoor code compliant weatherproof 120VAC for the equipment. And the issues that are frequently encountered by cable TV installers who mistakenly drill through a hole through a wall for some RG6 coax and burst somebody's water pipe or sewer pipe. This can drive the cost per building served cost up considerably, if the ISP needs to eat all or a portion of the cost of bringing electrical service to the outdoor mounting location. On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Jeremy Malli <jer...@vcn.com> wrote: > I'm hoping somebody on the list has a recommendation for an outdoor > ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU. Been doing so some research into this and have > come up empty so far. > > > My thinking is that by housing the DSL CPE outside the residence in an > enclosure we can reduce the issues with IW (since we would only need a > small jumper from the LEC handoff to the NIU) and also gain access to the > DSL CPE remotely for management and troubleshooting. We would then hand > off ethernet to the customer using existing wiring or running cat5. > > > Interested in how this problem may have already been addressed in the > provider community. > > > Thanks, > > > - > > Jeremy Malli > > jer...@vcn.com >
Re: Outdoor ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU
> On Sep 6, 2016, at 8:40 PM, Eric Kuhnkewrote: > > This can drive the cost per building served cost up considerably, if the > ISP needs to eat all or a portion of the cost of bringing electrical > service to the outdoor mounting location. I’m a fan of this device as you can run PoE out to it. Just wish it had space for a splice to be held, as well as excess cable stored. Of course this is fiber vs xDSL, etc.. http://www.balticnetworks.com/mikrotik-fiber-to-copper-converter.html - Jared
Re: Outdoor ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU
I think Calix has a fully outdoor version of their 844G VDSL2 modem. The problem you'll run into is the cost of bringing 12VDC through a small hole in the exterior wall (from a small indoor mounted 120VAC to 12VDC power supply) or outdoor code compliant weatherproof 120VAC for the equipment. And the issues that are frequently encountered by cable TV installers who mistakenly drill through a hole through a wall for some RG6 coax and burst somebody's water pipe or sewer pipe. This can drive the cost per building served cost up considerably, if the ISP needs to eat all or a portion of the cost of bringing electrical service to the outdoor mounting location. On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Jeremy Malli <jer...@vcn.com> wrote: > I'm hoping somebody on the list has a recommendation for an outdoor > ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU. Been doing so some research into this and have > come up empty so far. > > > My thinking is that by housing the DSL CPE outside the residence in an > enclosure we can reduce the issues with IW (since we would only need a > small jumper from the LEC handoff to the NIU) and also gain access to the > DSL CPE remotely for management and troubleshooting. We would then hand > off ethernet to the customer using existing wiring or running cat5. > > > Interested in how this problem may have already been addressed in the > provider community. > > > Thanks, > > > - > > Jeremy Malli > > jer...@vcn.com >
Re: Outdoor ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU
Adtran. Randy > On Sep 2, 2016, at 19:37, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com> wrote: > > Check with Calix or Ciena. > > On Sep 2, 2016 11:27 AM, "Jeremy Malli" <jer...@vcn.com> wrote: > >> I'm hoping somebody on the list has a recommendation for an outdoor >> ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU. Been doing so some research into this and have >> come up empty so far. >> >> >> My thinking is that by housing the DSL CPE outside the residence in an >> enclosure we can reduce the issues with IW (since we would only need a >> small jumper from the LEC handoff to the NIU) and also gain access to the >> DSL CPE remotely for management and troubleshooting. We would then hand >> off ethernet to the customer using existing wiring or running cat5. >> >> >> Interested in how this problem may have already been addressed in the >> provider community. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> - >> >> Jeremy Malli >> >> jer...@vcn.com >>
Re: Outdoor ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU
Check with Calix or Ciena. On Sep 2, 2016 11:27 AM, "Jeremy Malli" <jer...@vcn.com> wrote: > I'm hoping somebody on the list has a recommendation for an outdoor > ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU. Been doing so some research into this and have > come up empty so far. > > > My thinking is that by housing the DSL CPE outside the residence in an > enclosure we can reduce the issues with IW (since we would only need a > small jumper from the LEC handoff to the NIU) and also gain access to the > DSL CPE remotely for management and troubleshooting. We would then hand > off ethernet to the customer using existing wiring or running cat5. > > > Interested in how this problem may have already been addressed in the > provider community. > > > Thanks, > > > - > > Jeremy Malli > > jer...@vcn.com >
Outdoor ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU
I'm hoping somebody on the list has a recommendation for an outdoor ADSL2+/VDSL/G.Fast NIU. Been doing so some research into this and have come up empty so far. My thinking is that by housing the DSL CPE outside the residence in an enclosure we can reduce the issues with IW (since we would only need a small jumper from the LEC handoff to the NIU) and also gain access to the DSL CPE remotely for management and troubleshooting. We would then hand off ethernet to the customer using existing wiring or running cat5. Interested in how this problem may have already been addressed in the provider community. Thanks, - Jeremy Malli jer...@vcn.com
Re: VDSL CPE Mixed Results
So with this 3 line connection, what speeds up and down are you getting? You say 10X10 which I find odd for a 3 line bonded VDSL2 connection. Most always your downstream will be much higher than your upstream on a 868 unit. On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Stetson Blake stetson.bl...@datayardworks.com wrote: Hey All, We have been deploying Adtran 838(shdsl) and 868(dsl) units in our metro area with mixed results. The devices themselves are reliable and secure it would seem, but the speeds were are able to get are not. ie. we have deployed 'vdsl' and needed 3 lines to get up to 10x10 speeds. We are using an Adtran TA5000 on the other end to terminate our connections. The distance between the site and CO is not great (under 6k feet). What gives? Are we provisioning wrong, using the wrong equipment, or a combination of both? If we were able to get the speeds others have been reporting from VDSL, life would be great. Anyone feel free to contact me off-list or on, this has had me scratching my head for a while now. Thanks, -- Stetson Blake Network Technician DataYard 130 West Second St. Suite 250 Dayton, OH 45402 http://datayardworks.com
Re: VDSL CPE Mixed Results
Also, what do your stats look like? 6kft is getting beyond the sweet spot for VDSL2, particularly if you're trying to push 10Mbps on the upstream. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 15, 2015, at 5:36, Shawn L sha...@up.net wrote: I was going to ask if you've tested the cable pair at all. If the pair is bad, or even a little out of balance, bad scotch loks, etc. VDSL isn't going to work properly. We have customers that are definitely in-range for VDSL but who cannot get it because there is a 26 gauge insert between two cross-connect cabinets in the field On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Scott Helms khe...@zcorum.com wrote: I'm going to guess you're a CLEC from your website and a common problem I've seen in that scenario is that vectoring doesn't work between DSLAMs because it needs all pairs to be part of the vector group so that the DSLAM can mitigate FEXT. DSLAM vendors have been working on system level, rather than DSLAM/binder level, vectoring for a while but cross vendor support is questionable at best. Read the section on system level vectoring especially: http://www.adtran.com/web/fileDownload/doc/32362 If you are sharing binders with the ILEC and potentially other CLECs then you really need to talk to you ILEC rep and find out what they're doing for system level vectoring to see if there is an option for your DSLAMs to be included. That benefits everyone and will _greatly_ increase performance. VDSL2 speeds will otherwise be unreachable unless the ILEC gives each CLEC their own binder, not very practical. Scott Helms Vice President of Technology ZCorum (678) 507-5000 http://twitter.com/kscotthelms On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Stetson Blake stetson.bl...@datayardworks.com wrote: Hey All, We have been deploying Adtran 838(shdsl) and 868(dsl) units in our metro area with mixed results. The devices themselves are reliable and secure it would seem, but the speeds were are able to get are not. ie. we have deployed 'vdsl' and needed 3 lines to get up to 10x10 speeds. We are using an Adtran TA5000 on the other end to terminate our connections. The distance between the site and CO is not great (under 6k feet). What gives? Are we provisioning wrong, using the wrong equipment, or a combination of both? If we were able to get the speeds others have been reporting from VDSL, life would be great. Anyone feel free to contact me off-list or on, this has had me scratching my head for a while now. Thanks, -- Stetson Blake Network Technician DataYard 130 West Second St. Suite 250 Dayton, OH 45402 http://datayardworks.com
Re: VDSL CPE Mixed Results
I'm going to guess you're a CLEC from your website and a common problem I've seen in that scenario is that vectoring doesn't work between DSLAMs because it needs all pairs to be part of the vector group so that the DSLAM can mitigate FEXT. DSLAM vendors have been working on system level, rather than DSLAM/binder level, vectoring for a while but cross vendor support is questionable at best. Read the section on system level vectoring especially: http://www.adtran.com/web/fileDownload/doc/32362 If you are sharing binders with the ILEC and potentially other CLECs then you really need to talk to you ILEC rep and find out what they're doing for system level vectoring to see if there is an option for your DSLAMs to be included. That benefits everyone and will _greatly_ increase performance. VDSL2 speeds will otherwise be unreachable unless the ILEC gives each CLEC their own binder, not very practical. Scott Helms Vice President of Technology ZCorum (678) 507-5000 http://twitter.com/kscotthelms On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Stetson Blake stetson.bl...@datayardworks.com wrote: Hey All, We have been deploying Adtran 838(shdsl) and 868(dsl) units in our metro area with mixed results. The devices themselves are reliable and secure it would seem, but the speeds were are able to get are not. ie. we have deployed 'vdsl' and needed 3 lines to get up to 10x10 speeds. We are using an Adtran TA5000 on the other end to terminate our connections. The distance between the site and CO is not great (under 6k feet). What gives? Are we provisioning wrong, using the wrong equipment, or a combination of both? If we were able to get the speeds others have been reporting from VDSL, life would be great. Anyone feel free to contact me off-list or on, this has had me scratching my head for a while now. Thanks, -- Stetson Blake Network Technician DataYard 130 West Second St. Suite 250 Dayton, OH 45402 http://datayardworks.com
Re: VDSL CPE Mixed Results
I was going to ask if you've tested the cable pair at all. If the pair is bad, or even a little out of balance, bad scotch loks, etc. VDSL isn't going to work properly. We have customers that are definitely in-range for VDSL but who cannot get it because there is a 26 gauge insert between two cross-connect cabinets in the field On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Scott Helms khe...@zcorum.com wrote: I'm going to guess you're a CLEC from your website and a common problem I've seen in that scenario is that vectoring doesn't work between DSLAMs because it needs all pairs to be part of the vector group so that the DSLAM can mitigate FEXT. DSLAM vendors have been working on system level, rather than DSLAM/binder level, vectoring for a while but cross vendor support is questionable at best. Read the section on system level vectoring especially: http://www.adtran.com/web/fileDownload/doc/32362 If you are sharing binders with the ILEC and potentially other CLECs then you really need to talk to you ILEC rep and find out what they're doing for system level vectoring to see if there is an option for your DSLAMs to be included. That benefits everyone and will _greatly_ increase performance. VDSL2 speeds will otherwise be unreachable unless the ILEC gives each CLEC their own binder, not very practical. Scott Helms Vice President of Technology ZCorum (678) 507-5000 http://twitter.com/kscotthelms On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Stetson Blake stetson.bl...@datayardworks.com wrote: Hey All, We have been deploying Adtran 838(shdsl) and 868(dsl) units in our metro area with mixed results. The devices themselves are reliable and secure it would seem, but the speeds were are able to get are not. ie. we have deployed 'vdsl' and needed 3 lines to get up to 10x10 speeds. We are using an Adtran TA5000 on the other end to terminate our connections. The distance between the site and CO is not great (under 6k feet). What gives? Are we provisioning wrong, using the wrong equipment, or a combination of both? If we were able to get the speeds others have been reporting from VDSL, life would be great. Anyone feel free to contact me off-list or on, this has had me scratching my head for a while now. Thanks, -- Stetson Blake Network Technician DataYard 130 West Second St. Suite 250 Dayton, OH 45402 http://datayardworks.com
RE: VDSL CPE Mixed Results
We've used a few Zhone ETHX-344x4 (http://www.zhone.com/products/ETHX-3400/) and been happy with the reliability. Configuration was a bugger, but if you get one of those I can share my template. Frank -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Stetson Blake Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 8:29 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: VDSL CPE Mixed Results Hey All, We have been deploying Adtran 838(shdsl) and 868(dsl) units in our metro area with mixed results. The devices themselves are reliable and secure it would seem, but the speeds were are able to get are not. ie. we have deployed 'vdsl' and needed 3 lines to get up to 10x10 speeds. We are using an Adtran TA5000 on the other end to terminate our connections. The distance between the site and CO is not great (under 6k feet). What gives? Are we provisioning wrong, using the wrong equipment, or a combination of both? If we were able to get the speeds others have been reporting from VDSL, life would be great. Anyone feel free to contact me off-list or on, this has had me scratching my head for a while now. Thanks, -- Stetson Blake Network Technician DataYard 130 West Second St. Suite 250 Dayton, OH 45402 http://datayardworks.com
VDSL concentrator
I'm searching for a low price VDSL DSLAM like e.g. the Patton FF3210P. I need to redistribute the connectivity to customers inside a large campus but i don't need any particular additional service. Do you have any advice? Thanks! Mirko