Re: [neonixie-l] Nixie Tube Power Supply: 0..300V @ 30mA max.
Hi Eric, But Jens is talking about a linear regulateor... actually I think I am not. I would like to drive the transistor with a PWM stage from my microcontroller, see here: http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/400v_adjustable.png Or did I miss something? Thanks for the idea of using a tube regulated supply, but this is a little too much for me I think since I would like to keep it as simple as possible at the moment. The next question I have is about how to smoothen the voltage. I.e. is one cap enough (I hardly think so) and what can be done to have a ripple voltage maybe below 1V? Best regards, Jens -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] Nixie Tube Power Supply: 0..300V @ 30mA max.
I remember when I was in my early twenties thinking the same thing. I was so proud when I build my PWM power supply using a bipolar transistor (I would be surprised if a MOSFET worked any different). It was a big disappointment to learn by way of a burnt finger that it dissipated as much heat/power as a linear regulator. Also, The power dissipation even in a PWM circuit should be across a big assed resistor not the transistor. It will allow you to use a smaller transistor which will run cooler and hopefully last longer. You need to use the wonders of inductors in the form of buck/boost or transformers to keep from making Just Another Linear Amplifier (JALA if you like acronyms) -joe On Monday 25 July 2011 18:06:10 Frank Bemelman wrote: Dissipation is relative small with a pwm driven transistor. - Original Message - From: Tidak Ada offl...@zeelandnet.nl To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 10:38 PM Subject: RE: [neonixie-l] Nixie Tube Power Supply: 0..300V @ 30mA max. Hi, Did you realize the power dissipation in the transistor? Better is to use a tranformer with several taps in a circuit like this. eric -Original Message- From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of jb-electronics Sent: maandag 25 juli 2011 19:00 To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Nixie Tube Power Supply: 0..300V @ 30mA max. Hi, thanks for the hint. See the reviewed circuit: http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/400v_adjustable.png Yes, the feedback loop will be included, I forgot to mention that my power supply will have both a volt- and amperemeter built in. This way I will be able to check the voltage, as well as to completely shut off the PWM stage when the current is too high. Is this safe? Does anyone know a good PNP transistor for this purpose? Regards, Jens Am 25.07.2011 18:08, schrieb Frank Bemelman: I would (at least) add some feedback. Voltage divider and opamp to compare against set value. Without feedback, the cap would charge to 400V in no time. Plus a current limiting resistor of 1K in series with the emitter, which makes a lousy protection but still better than nothing. - Original Message - From: jb-electronics webmas...@jb-electronics.de To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Nixie Tube Power Supply: 0..300V @ 30mA max. Hi, thanks a lot for all these replies. I am not an engineer, so I am not familiar with power supply circuitry. These modules on Ebay are nice, but I would like to build my own meters around that supply, that would be a waste of these units I think. They are a tad too powerful for me as well ;-) I like the PWM idea because it is so simple: Why not rectify some AC (after two transformers of course) to say 400V. Then use some suited PNP transistor (which would that be?) that switches the +400V on and off, and then a cap to smoothen the signal. Probably a rather Spartan design yet, any improvements? I can tell it is not protected against shorts. http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/400v_adjustable.png The maximum current is then limited by the transformers that are used, isn't it? Thanks again, Jens Am 23.07.2011 02:36, schrieb Charles MacDonald: On 11-07-22 06:51 AM, Tidak Ada wrote: The background is this: I would like to build a universal power supply that can be used to drive all kinds of display devices: VFD tubes with their 50-60V anode voltage, as well as larger Nixie tubes with 300V anode voltage and 25mA current. Any other ideas are quite welcome, too. Do you really want to BUILD such an item? They are common on test benches and with fewer test benches using High Voltage devices, they are found in surplus. I recently got a nice looking unit with 1-400 volts at about 100ma as a science lab item. Dial the voltage limit, Dial the current limit. I have not tried it with an audio amp yet, but it should run fine for Nixie use. For example have a look at Ebay Item number:230649564649 Item number:150634915051 If you want to look at the OLD school way, My old school test bench as a Stark Regulated supply, which is one of the schematics at Pacific TV tubes site. It uses a 6l6 as a pass regulator. The C supply would cover your VFD requirements. This was surplus from an Old High School lab. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB. -- You received this message because you are
[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Tube Power Supply: 0..300V @ 30mA max.
You can always take a look at Steve Bench's RAT gm/Mu Tube Tester Project and see how he used IRF820 Mosfets for linear regulation of up to 300V and 50mA with a simple short circuit protection, look at his webpage here: http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench101/ and scroll down to the RAT section. The Plate Voltage regulator with the constant current fed zeners is the part that you would like to build for a linear regulator. Since the mosfet has a very low on resistance the disspiation will be very low in a circuit like this. You can also search Google for LM1085 in combination with the IXYS 10M45S constant current regulator or in combination with mosfets as many modern linear tube amp powersupplies are built around these circuits. Here's an example of a regulator for Audio amplifiers: http://www.tubecad.com/2006/11/blog0087.htm , there are many more similar to this one that you can Google. /Martin On 26 Juli, 11:50, jb-electronics webmas...@jb-electronics.de wrote: Hi Eric, But Jens is talking about a linear regulateor... actually I think I am not. I would like to drive the transistor with a PWM stage from my microcontroller, see here:http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/400v_adjustable.png Or did I miss something? Thanks for the idea of using a tube regulated supply, but this is a little too much for me I think since I would like to keep it as simple as possible at the moment. The next question I have is about how to smoothen the voltage. I.e. is one cap enough (I hardly think so) and what can be done to have a ripple voltage maybe below 1V? Best regards, Jens -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] How often does a 74141 go bad, or arrive dead?
I have used many old 74141, 7441, and 72142 ics from various manufacturers. Every so often (as in once in a great while) I have run into a few that fail on one or more digits. However, once they are in circuit and being used properly, they are very robust and long-lived. I just built a small clock 2 years ago and used an old set of Fairchild 7441s that have 1967 date codes on them. They work fine. If you really scour around, you can still find stashes of real 74141s and 7441s for about a buck each. But you've got to really hunt for them. 74142 is just about unobtainium now. Chuck Original Message From: a...@jacobs.us To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] How often does a 74141 go bad, or arrive dead? Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 18:59:53 -0700 I've never used a Real 74141, although I notice that mouser still stocks them for about $7 each. I've been using the standard $1/each plastic die K115D1 russian equivalents for my entire nixie clock 'career' and only had one problem. One of them stopped working after about a day of use.. I seem to recall that one of the cathodes stuck on.. I replaced it and that was that. So, I have no basis for comparison to real 74141's, but I've had good luck with the russian ones. You can even get supposedly milspec ceramic die versions, but they don't fit nicely in sockets, so although I have some, I've never actually used them. -Adam On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Charles MacDonald cm...@zeusprune.cawrote: On 11-07-22 09:08 PM, Mimewar wrote: I'm up to three tubes, (coding takes longer than wiring) funny thing is, the first 74141 (Fairchild I assume by the capitol F) wouldn't display 5 or 6, How old are the chips? They date code is generaly YYWW like 7813 (thrieteenth week of 1978) You likly are using chips that have been in a drawer for 30 years. -- Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cm...@zeusprune.ca Just Beyond the Fringe http://www.TelecomOttawa.net/~**cmacd/http://www.TelecomOttawa.net/% 7Ecmacd/ No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscribe@** googlegroups.com neonixie-l%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GBhttp://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?h l=en-GB . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group /neonixie-l?hl=en-GB. $4.95/mo. National Dialup, Anti-Spam, Anti-Virus, 5mb personal web space. 5x faster dialup for only $9.95/mo. No contracts, No fees, No Kidding! See http://www.All2Easy.net for more details! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] How often does a 74141 go bad, or arrive dead?
74142 is just about unobtainium now. Not really. Abra is among the top hits if you search for it, they offer 'em for $7 apiece or $6 each for 25 or more. A tad expensive, but hardly unobtainium. 7400 series DIP: ABRA has one of the largest inventory of TTL in North America. Our 74 series is from major manufacturers, guaranteed, and at incredibly low prices. Call us for large quantities. http://www.abra-electronics.com/categories/ICs%7B47%7DSemiconductors/74-Series%252dDip-Package/ 74142: http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/74142-IC-TTL.html - John KG4L -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] How often does a 74141 go bad, or arrive dead?
Hey, neat! I might have to build a clock around 74142's just to try it. First thing that comes to mind is that one could build Mike Harrison's clock without all the HV transistor drivers... Although, I suppose the 250vdc supply on his board would be too hot for a 74141 so probably too hot for a 74142.. Maybe a transformer supply.. -Adam W7ATJ On 7/26/2011 7:25 AM, John Rehwinkel wrote: 74142 is just about unobtainium now. Not really. Abra is among the top hits if you search for it, they offer 'em for $7 apiece or $6 each for 25 or more. A tad expensive, but hardly unobtainium. 7400 series DIP: ABRA has one of the largest inventory of TTL in North America. Our 74 series is from major manufacturers, guaranteed, and at incredibly low prices. Call us for large quantities. http://www.abra-electronics.com/categories/ICs%7B47%7DSemiconductors/74-Series%252dDip-Package/ 74142: http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/74142-IC-TTL.html - John KG4L -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
[neonixie-l] Re: How often does a 74141 go bad, or arrive dead?
| 250vdc supply on his board would be too hot for a 74141 so probably | too hot for a 74142.. Maybe a transformer supply.. | | -Adam W7ATJ 250V is a tad too hot for a 74141. Western 74141s had zener clamps at ~60V, an from experience the Russian parts started to breakdown ~100V. So if a nixie turns OFF ~130V, then the max supply is either 190V (130V +60V), maybe 230V (130V+100V) for a Russian part. If you use a MPSA42, which is good to 300V, then the supply can go upto 430V (assuming 130V minimum sustain. 130V is only a ballpark number). Your anode resistors might get a tad hot, if use that extreme of a voltage. In practice, nixie supplies should be in the 180V to 200V range. 170V is the absolute low end (direct drive only, too low for MUX'd circuits). 220V probably the high end limit, if you use the 74141. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: How often does a 74141 go bad, or arrive dead?
I'm just wondering how practical it would be to reproduce mike Harrison's circuit with 74142's. His primary design consideration was only modern parts, simplicity cheap component costs... While his design is logically simple, it's not simple to build.. He has 28 MPSA42 drivers. 1 of which is to drive the 10 hours (1) cathode, another is used to drive the blinking neon(s). That leaves 26 MPSA42 drivers that could be replaced with three 74142's used in place of their CMOS decade counters. That's $21 to replace maybe $5 worth of parts.. so we're +$15 at that point. But the powersupply, which is the simplest part of Mike's circuit, would need a complete overhaul. TTL parts need a solid +5vdc and won't work with Mike's unisolated zener shunt logic supply. Also, as you say, the 74142 won't work at the 250vdc provided by the unisolated DC doubler circuit. Probably I'd do the AC wall-wart, 7805 (or bucking switcher) boost switching supply... That right there takes away a lot of the simplicity that the 74142's add to the circuit.. Probably explains why I haven't ever seen anybody do it. :) Still, an interesting thought experiment. -Adam On 7/26/2011 12:13 PM, threeneurons wrote: | 250vdc supply on his board would be too hot for a 74141 so probably | too hot for a 74142.. Maybe a transformer supply.. | | -Adam W7ATJ 250V is a tad too hot for a 74141. Western 74141s had zener clamps at ~60V, an from experience the Russian parts started to breakdown ~100V. So if a nixie turns OFF ~130V, then the max supply is either 190V (130V +60V), maybe 230V (130V+100V) for a Russian part. If you use a MPSA42, which is good to 300V, then the supply can go upto 430V (assuming 130V minimum sustain. 130V is only a ballpark number). Your anode resistors might get a tad hot, if use that extreme of a voltage. In practice, nixie supplies should be in the 180V to 200V range. 170V is the absolute low end (direct drive only, too low for MUX'd circuits). 220V probably the high end limit, if you use the 74141. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] How about this weather... I ran out of memory!?! HA!
yep, you're right, you need to learn about subroutines. Basically, you need: 1) a main loop 2) a subroutine that increments the time (time is kept in a variable [or a few variables, if you like]) 3) a subroutine that displays the time (that it found in the time variable) This is all part of the learning process. You're doing great, but I would definitely work on the software before adding an eeprom. -Adam On 7/26/2011 12:20 PM, Shane Ellis wrote: Here is my basic BASIC code. I haven't added the seconds yet, nor a way to set the minutes. I was going to start this breadboarded clock at ten o'clock and let it run for a while, then get into the settings code later on, after I know my timing coding is good. I'm assuming the gosub commands will help me save a lot of white space and memory, I just wanted to get these four tubes going, to keep my spirits up, and keep me motivated :) code is as follows: -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] How about this weather... I ran out of memory!?! HA!
Thank you sir, I'll do some reading tonight. It's my annual birthday night off so i can actually read, and have a chance that I will retain it. Gosub here I come. Shane On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Adam Jacobs a...@jacobs.us wrote: yep, you're right, you need to learn about subroutines. Basically, you need: 1) a main loop 2) a subroutine that increments the time (time is kept in a variable [or a few variables, if you like]) 3) a subroutine that displays the time (that it found in the time variable) This is all part of the learning process. You're doing great, but I would definitely work on the software before adding an eeprom. -Adam On 7/26/2011 12:20 PM, Shane Ellis wrote: Here is my basic BASIC code. I haven't added the seconds yet, nor a way to set the minutes. I was going to start this breadboarded clock at ten o'clock and let it run for a while, then get into the settings code later on, after I know my timing coding is good. I'm assuming the gosub commands will help me save a lot of white space and memory, I just wanted to get these four tubes going, to keep my spirits up, and keep me motivated :) code is as follows: -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscribe@** googlegroups.com neonixie-l%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GBhttp://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] How about this weather... I ran out of memory!?! HA!
Hi Shane, happy birthday! Adam is right, a few variables and you will see that the code shrinks to 10 lines or so. I started exactly the same, but on a PC: I simulated some progress bars with sleep commands and explicit line positions, just like you with the tubes. I was thrilled when I found out about the variables and then it was possible to input the progress bar positions via keyboard etc... Subroutines (SUBs) then allowed me to place multiple progress bars on the screen by just adding one line to the code. Magic. A senseless piece of program, of course, but it was fun and I learned a lot. So Adam is right again, you are on a good way. It might also be a good idea to start out with writing some BASIC programs on your PC to understand the way of programming better. I started with QuickBASIC, and I still like it. Best regards, Jens Am 26.07.2011 21:32, schrieb Adam Jacobs: yep, you're right, you need to learn about subroutines. Basically, you need: 1) a main loop 2) a subroutine that increments the time (time is kept in a variable [or a few variables, if you like]) 3) a subroutine that displays the time (that it found in the time variable) This is all part of the learning process. You're doing great, but I would definitely work on the software before adding an eeprom. -Adam On 7/26/2011 12:20 PM, Shane Ellis wrote: Here is my basic BASIC code. I haven't added the seconds yet, nor a way to set the minutes. I was going to start this breadboarded clock at ten o'clock and let it run for a while, then get into the settings code later on, after I know my timing coding is good. I'm assuming the gosub commands will help me save a lot of white space and memory, I just wanted to get these four tubes going, to keep my spirits up, and keep me motivated :) code is as follows: -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] New single tube clock - Hivac GR10J rarity
WOW! Stunning work John! Obviously your a very accomplished coder/builder. On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Quixotic Nixotic nixot...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I have just finished a new clock, based on a large tube, possibly the most beautiful tube ever made. I have added a hurried web page about it here: http://www.clock-it.net/neon/gr10j/index.shtml There is a Youtube viddy of it embedded on that page, or you can follow this direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVFsrleA3pw Rest of the site is undergoing redesign, more pages coming soon, John S -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
[neonixie-l] Re: New single tube clock - Hivac GR10J rarity
I second the motion John...WOW! Gorgeous, probably THE most well executed single-tube design I have ever seen. It seems you have overcome all the things that really bug me about single tube designs. Bravo!! Tasteful video too!! On Jul 26, 2:24 pm, Quixotic Nixotic nixot...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I have just finished a new clock, based on a large tube, possibly the most beautiful tube ever made. I have added a hurried web page about it here:http://www.clock-it.net/neon/gr10j/index.shtml There is a Youtube viddy of it embedded on that page, or you can follow this direct link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVFsrleA3pw Rest of the site is undergoing redesign, more pages coming soon, John S -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
[neonixie-l] Re: New single tube clock - Hivac GR10J rarity
Neato! Interesting coincidence about the case...I was staring at my sons FLW a couple days ago, and finally figured out what a case for it could look like: it would have a sloped front panel that would hide the base of the tubes, but expose the top, pretty much exactly like your clock! I guess there really is something to the mental telepathy thing. Quixotic Nixotic wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVFsrleA3pw -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: New single tube clock - Hivac GR10J rarity
Neato! I agree, a very nice clock with a very nice tube. Out of curiosity, did you change the scaling of the pictures? Your GR10J looks a little broad. Regards, Jens -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] How about this weather... I ran out of memory!?! HA!
On 11-07-26 04:09 PM, jb-electronics wrote: Hi Shane, happy birthday! Adam is right, a few variables and you will see that the code shrinks to 10 lines or so. Your basic should have aBitwise AND and OR operation. something like 10101010 AND gives 1010 And an Or 1010 OR gives 1010 -- Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cm...@zeusprune.ca Just Beyond the Fringe http://www.TelecomOttawa.net/~cmacd/ No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
