Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Neon Lamp Matrix

[Tom Harris]

Gregebert you are quite correct about the probable connection and the
voltage spread, it would only work within the same batch, I built a 3x3 and
it was tricky as hell to get working. I'm told there were Soviet era neon
lamps with a wider voltage spread that would be easier.

Maybe this guy:
https://hackaday.com/2020/07/23/384-neon-bulbs-become-attractive-display/
knew about the issues!


Tom Harris 


On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 08:40, gregebert  wrote:

> So if the display was static, using only pulses to turn bulbs on or off,
> then it was most likely all bulbs were resistively tied to a sustaining
> voltage, say 70 volts.
> If individual rows were sequentially pulsed higher, say +85V while columns
> were pulsed slightly negative, then those targeted bulbs would turn on. It
> would be very tricky because the ionization and sustaining voltages will
> change over time and vary across manufacturing lots.
>
> On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 1:49:44 PM UTC-7 Jon D. wrote:
>
>> Copy that...
>>
>> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:42 PM Tidak Ada  wrote:
>>
>>> Oops, a typo.It is ZM1215 of course as the file name says.
>>> eric
>>> Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone
>>>
>>> Op 5 mei 2021 om 22:36 heeft Jon Jackson  het
>>> volgende geschreven:
>>>
>>> 
>>> is this a ZM1251 or ZM1215 ??  You have conflicting info...
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:29 PM Tom Harris  wrote:
>>>
 Thanks for the ideas but it was definitely static with the pulses just
 used to turn the lamps on or off. After that they would keep their state
 indefinitely.

 Tom Harris 


 On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 01:21, gregebert  wrote:

> If it was pulsed-DC, then it probably was simple multiplexing.
>
> I have thought about doing it with AC, which makes the driver more
> complex, but it will make the bulbs last longer since both electrodes will
> be illuminated (alternately, of course). Not sinusoidal AC, but
> square-waves. If you do the math, a typical neon bulb is "on" for about 
> 2/3
> of an AC cycle (on at 90V, off at 60V) so that would be my starting point
> for multiplexing. I was thinking a 7 x 9 matrix, using 2:1 multiplexing.
> It's more driving circuitry but it might be possible with an HV-series
> device that can drive high and low.
>
> On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 5:46:13 AM UTC-7 celephicus wrote:
>
>> Can someone please help me out, I remember an article from some
>> scanned book from the 60s where a set of neon lamps were connected in a
>> matrix with clever biasing and pulses on the row & column could toggle an
>> individual lamp. I thought it was the GE glow lamp manual but it seems 
>> not.
>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Neon Lamp Matrix

[gregebert]

So if the display was static, using only pulses to turn bulbs on or off, 
then it was most likely all bulbs were resistively tied to a sustaining 
voltage, say 70 volts.
If individual rows were sequentially pulsed higher, say +85V while columns 
were pulsed slightly negative, then those targeted bulbs would turn on. It 
would be very tricky because the ionization and sustaining voltages will 
change over time and vary across manufacturing lots.

On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 1:49:44 PM UTC-7 Jon D. wrote:

> Copy that...
>
> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:42 PM Tidak Ada  wrote:
>
>> Oops, a typo.It is ZM1215 of course as the file name says.
>> eric
>> Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone
>>
>> Op 5 mei 2021 om 22:36 heeft Jon Jackson  het 
>> volgende geschreven:
>>
>> 
>> is this a ZM1251 or ZM1215 ??  You have conflicting info...
>>
>> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:29 PM Tom Harris  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the ideas but it was definitely static with the pulses just 
>>> used to turn the lamps on or off. After that they would keep their state 
>>> indefinitely. 
>>>
>>> Tom Harris 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 01:21, gregebert  wrote:
>>>
 If it was pulsed-DC, then it probably was simple multiplexing.

 I have thought about doing it with AC, which makes the driver more 
 complex, but it will make the bulbs last longer since both electrodes will 
 be illuminated (alternately, of course). Not sinusoidal AC, but 
 square-waves. If you do the math, a typical neon bulb is "on" for about 
 2/3 
 of an AC cycle (on at 90V, off at 60V) so that would be my starting point 
 for multiplexing. I was thinking a 7 x 9 matrix, using 2:1 multiplexing. 
 It's more driving circuitry but it might be possible with an HV-series 
 device that can drive high and low.

 On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 5:46:13 AM UTC-7 celephicus wrote:

> Can someone please help me out, I remember an article from some 
> scanned book from the 60s where a set of neon lamps were connected in a 
> matrix with clever biasing and pulses on the row & column could toggle an 
> individual lamp. I thought it was the GE glow lamp manual but it seems 
> not. 
>
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 .

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Neon Lamp Matrix

[Jon Jackson]

Copy that...

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:42 PM Tidak Ada  wrote:

> Oops, a typo.It is ZM1215 of course as the file name says.
> eric
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone
>
> Op 5 mei 2021 om 22:36 heeft Jon Jackson  het
> volgende geschreven:
>
> 
> is this a ZM1251 or ZM1215 ??  You have conflicting info...
>
> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:29 PM Tom Harris  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the ideas but it was definitely static with the pulses just
>> used to turn the lamps on or off. After that they would keep their state
>> indefinitely.
>>
>> Tom Harris 
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 01:21, gregebert  wrote:
>>
>>> If it was pulsed-DC, then it probably was simple multiplexing.
>>>
>>> I have thought about doing it with AC, which makes the driver more
>>> complex, but it will make the bulbs last longer since both electrodes will
>>> be illuminated (alternately, of course). Not sinusoidal AC, but
>>> square-waves. If you do the math, a typical neon bulb is "on" for about 2/3
>>> of an AC cycle (on at 90V, off at 60V) so that would be my starting point
>>> for multiplexing. I was thinking a 7 x 9 matrix, using 2:1 multiplexing.
>>> It's more driving circuitry but it might be possible with an HV-series
>>> device that can drive high and low.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 5:46:13 AM UTC-7 celephicus wrote:
>>>
 Can someone please help me out, I remember an article from some scanned
 book from the 60s where a set of neon lamps were connected in a matrix with
 clever biasing and pulses on the row & column could toggle an individual
 lamp. I thought it was the GE glow lamp manual but it seems not.

>>> --
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>>> 
>>> .
>>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Neon Lamp Matrix

[Tidak Ada]

Oops, a typo.It is ZM1215 of course as the file name says.
eric
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone

> Op 5 mei 2021 om 22:36 heeft Jon Jackson  het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
> 
> is this a ZM1251 or ZM1215 ??  You have conflicting info...
> 
>> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:29 PM Tom Harris  wrote:
>> Thanks for the ideas but it was definitely static with the pulses just used 
>> to turn the lamps on or off. After that they would keep their state 
>> indefinitely. 
>> 
>> Tom Harris 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 01:21, gregebert  wrote:
>>> If it was pulsed-DC, then it probably was simple multiplexing.
>>> 
>>> I have thought about doing it with AC, which makes the driver more complex, 
>>> but it will make the bulbs last longer since both electrodes will be 
>>> illuminated (alternately, of course). Not sinusoidal AC, but square-waves. 
>>> If you do the math, a typical neon bulb is "on" for about 2/3 of an AC 
>>> cycle (on at 90V, off at 60V) so that would be my starting point for 
>>> multiplexing. I was thinking a 7 x 9 matrix, using 2:1 multiplexing. It's 
>>> more driving circuitry but it might be possible with an HV-series device 
>>> that can drive high and low.
>>> 
 On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 5:46:13 AM UTC-7 celephicus wrote:
 Can someone please help me out, I remember an article from some scanned 
 book from the 60s where a set of neon lamps were connected in a matrix 
 with clever biasing and pulses on the row & column could toggle an 
 individual lamp. I thought it was the GE glow lamp manual but it seems 
 not. 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "neonixie-l" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/3fbf8723-0461-443e-8b97-e4c97e1417can%40googlegroups.com.
>> 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Neon Lamp Matrix

[Jon Jackson]

is this a ZM1251 or ZM1215 ??  You have conflicting info...

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:29 PM Tom Harris  wrote:

> Thanks for the ideas but it was definitely static with the pulses just
> used to turn the lamps on or off. After that they would keep their state
> indefinitely.
>
> Tom Harris 
>
>
> On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 01:21, gregebert  wrote:
>
>> If it was pulsed-DC, then it probably was simple multiplexing.
>>
>> I have thought about doing it with AC, which makes the driver more
>> complex, but it will make the bulbs last longer since both electrodes will
>> be illuminated (alternately, of course). Not sinusoidal AC, but
>> square-waves. If you do the math, a typical neon bulb is "on" for about 2/3
>> of an AC cycle (on at 90V, off at 60V) so that would be my starting point
>> for multiplexing. I was thinking a 7 x 9 matrix, using 2:1 multiplexing.
>> It's more driving circuitry but it might be possible with an HV-series
>> device that can drive high and low.
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 5:46:13 AM UTC-7 celephicus wrote:
>>
>>> Can someone please help me out, I remember an article from some scanned
>>> book from the 60s where a set of neon lamps were connected in a matrix with
>>> clever biasing and pulses on the row & column could toggle an individual
>>> lamp. I thought it was the GE glow lamp manual but it seems not.
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "neonixie-l" group.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/3fbf8723-0461-443e-8b97-e4c97e1417can%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Neon Lamp Matrix

[Tom Harris]

Wow each lamp was individually pinned out. How did they drive these? Big
diode matrix?

Tom Harris 


On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 06:27, Tidak Ada  wrote:

> There was ever a Mullard ZM1251. A 5×7 neon dot matrix at the size of a
> stamp.
>
>
>
> eric
>
>
>
> *Van:* neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] 
> *Namens
> *gregebert
> *Verzonden:* woensdag 5 mei 2021 17:21
> *Aan:* neonixie-l
> *Onderwerp:* [neonixie-l] Re: Neon Lamp Matrix
>
>
>
> If it was pulsed-DC, then it probably was simple multiplexing.
>
>
>
> I have thought about doing it with AC, which makes the driver more
> complex, but it will make the bulbs last longer since both electrodes will
> be illuminated (alternately, of course). Not sinusoidal AC, but
> square-waves. If you do the math, a typical neon bulb is "on" for about 2/3
> of an AC cycle (on at 90V, off at 60V) so that would be my starting point
> for multiplexing. I was thinking a 7 x 9 matrix, using 2:1 multiplexing.
> It's more driving circuitry but it might be possible with an HV-series
> device that can drive high and low.
>
> On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 5:46:13 AM UTC-7 celephicus wrote:
>
> Can someone please help me out, I remember an article from some scanned
> book from the 60s where a set of neon lamps were connected in a matrix with
> clever biasing and pulses on the row & column could toggle an individual
> lamp. I thought it was the GE glow lamp manual but it seems not.
>
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> 
> .
>
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> 
> .
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Neon Lamp Matrix

[Tom Harris]

Thanks for the ideas but it was definitely static with the pulses just used
to turn the lamps on or off. After that they would keep their state
indefinitely.

Tom Harris 


On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 01:21, gregebert  wrote:

> If it was pulsed-DC, then it probably was simple multiplexing.
>
> I have thought about doing it with AC, which makes the driver more
> complex, but it will make the bulbs last longer since both electrodes will
> be illuminated (alternately, of course). Not sinusoidal AC, but
> square-waves. If you do the math, a typical neon bulb is "on" for about 2/3
> of an AC cycle (on at 90V, off at 60V) so that would be my starting point
> for multiplexing. I was thinking a 7 x 9 matrix, using 2:1 multiplexing.
> It's more driving circuitry but it might be possible with an HV-series
> device that can drive high and low.
>
> On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 5:46:13 AM UTC-7 celephicus wrote:
>
>> Can someone please help me out, I remember an article from some scanned
>> book from the 60s where a set of neon lamps were connected in a matrix with
>> clever biasing and pulses on the row & column could toggle an individual
>> lamp. I thought it was the GE glow lamp manual but it seems not.
>>
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> 
> .
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Neon Lamp Matrix

[gregebert]

If it was pulsed-DC, then it probably was simple multiplexing.

I have thought about doing it with AC, which makes the driver more complex, 
but it will make the bulbs last longer since both electrodes will be 
illuminated (alternately, of course). Not sinusoidal AC, but square-waves. 
If you do the math, a typical neon bulb is "on" for about 2/3 of an AC 
cycle (on at 90V, off at 60V) so that would be my starting point for 
multiplexing. I was thinking a 7 x 9 matrix, using 2:1 multiplexing. It's 
more driving circuitry but it might be possible with an HV-series device 
that can drive high and low.

On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 5:46:13 AM UTC-7 celephicus wrote:

> Can someone please help me out, I remember an article from some scanned 
> book from the 60s where a set of neon lamps were connected in a matrix with 
> clever biasing and pulses on the row & column could toggle an individual 
> lamp. I thought it was the GE glow lamp manual but it seems not. 
>

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[neonixie-l] Neon Lamp Matrix

[Tom Harris]

Can someone please help me out, I remember an article from some scanned
book from the 60s where a set of neon lamps were connected in a matrix with
clever biasing and pulses on the row & column could toggle an individual
lamp. I thought it was the GE glow lamp manual but it seems not.

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