[neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[MichaelB]

That's *Mr.*old man to you sir!

On Saturday, September 13, 2014 7:37:02 AM UTC-7, Greg P wrote:
>
>
> I noticed..You have a good eye old man  :)  
>
>
>
> On Friday, September 12, 2014 12:46:01 AM UTC-4, MichaelB wrote:
>>
>> Now that it's sold..anybody notice the rip saw marks on the edge of that 
>> face plate.? Not sure if that was acrylic or aluminum, nevertheless the 
>> maker did not pay a whole lot of attention to detail and did not bother to 
>> sand the saw marks out of his edges. Sorry, I am a bit of a stickler for 
>> detail in case construction.
>>
>> On Thursday, September 11, 2014 6:58:16 AM UTC-7, Nick wrote:
>>>
>>> Didn't sell at that price.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[Greg P]

I noticed..You have a good eye old man  :)  



On Friday, September 12, 2014 12:46:01 AM UTC-4, MichaelB wrote:
>
> Now that it's sold..anybody notice the rip saw marks on the edge of that 
> face plate.? Not sure if that was acrylic or aluminum, nevertheless the 
> maker did not pay a whole lot of attention to detail and did not bother to 
> sand the saw marks out of his edges. Sorry, I am a bit of a stickler for 
> detail in case construction.
>
> On Thursday, September 11, 2014 6:58:16 AM UTC-7, Nick wrote:
>>
>> Didn't sell at that price.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[MichaelB]

Now that it's sold..anybody notice the rip saw marks on the edge of that 
face plate.? Not sure if that was acrylic or aluminum, nevertheless the 
maker did not pay a whole lot of attention to detail and did not bother to 
sand the saw marks out of his edges. Sorry, I am a bit of a stickler for 
detail in case construction.

On Thursday, September 11, 2014 6:58:16 AM UTC-7, Nick wrote:
>
> Didn't sell at that price.
>
> Nick
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[Matthew Cameron]

On 09/11/2014 12:15 PM, David Forbes wrote:
The tubes are 'on' for less time, but the current needs to be somewhat higher for a similar apparent brightness. The tube life is 
proportional to something like i^-3 for higher currents. With a 1/6 duty cycle multiplexed clock running at twice the current of 
an always-on clock, the tube life will be similar but the display a bit less bright appearing.
I must have come across that or other research before, because I have come to a similar conclusion, which is:  When pulsing the 
tube's voltage (either by PWM or multiplexing), as long as you do not increase the current above the direct drive current 
specification, then tube lifetime increases.  If you increase the current to compensate, then the lifetime benefit decreases before 
you reach the original direct drive brightness.  I wonder if the strike activity is more stressful than the sustain activity.


Also, pulsing high voltage can rattle loose lightweight metal inside of the tube.  Sometimes, the frequency can be heard, as if the 
tube were a speaker.  I wonder if this movement can affect the buildup of resistive material (sputtering), and if there were to be 
benefits, are there any negative consequences due to the vibrations, such as structural or connection failure.


It looks like this clock was built using a clock kit circuit that can power 2 of the 6 tubes simultaneously, making the duty cycle 
at each tube 1/3, or 33%, not including any blanking intervals. Assuming that the picture accurately shows dimly lit segments, it 
does not look like the current was increased to compensate.  So the tube life should be good.  Residential settings are usually 
poorly lit, and nixie tubes were built for more brightly lit work environments.  So a slight decrease from the rated brightness can 
be perfectly acceptable.


Personally, I prefer direct drive with current regulation that decreases the brightness based on a light sensor.  If the clock is in 
direct sunlight, it needs to be brighter.  If the room is dark, the tubes need less current.  If the room is completely dark, the 
tubes may as well be off.  This should, at least, double the tube lifetime in most cases (assuming that you do not leave your lights 
on all the time).  Eventually, I would like to add room occupancy sensors to turn off the clock when there is no one there to admire 
them.  For clocks that have battery backup for the clock, you can do that now with a lamp motion sensor, but off-the-shelf devices 
tend to have poor sensor coverage due to poor placement of the sensor, or a room layout that needs more than one sensor on a switch.


I wonder if there is a better way of limiting the current without using PWM.  Some switching power supplies can adjust their voltage 
based on an output from a microcontroller.  However, I do not like the idea of a switching power supply failing to regulate the 
voltage and it sends more voltage then what the tubes should get.  I suppose a metal-oxide varistor (MOV) with the proper rating 
could be added to protect the tubes.  I suspect that these tubes may outlive the high voltage power supply.  Maybe a resistor ladder 
network would be better.  However, my concern is that when digits that require less current are lit, such as the "1" digit, this 
might make all other tubes receive more current and thus brighten the digits that should be static.


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[gregebert]

>
>
> I've been running my multiplexed ZM1040 clock in my living room for 13 
> years with no problems. 
>
>
Are your tubes running 24/7, or do they shutdown during off-hours, etc ?
I'm always on the lookout for reliability/lifetime info.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[gregebert]

>
> I never read any evidence in datasheets or elsewhere that tells me 
> multiplexed tubes last shorter than directly driven tubes
>

The only 'warning' I've seen is in the Burroughs catalog #616, where a 
footnote says "Note 1: Due to life considerations only long life nixie 
tubes are recommended for pulsed operation" . Out of paranoia I use 
direct-drive, even though my tubes are long-life (5092, 6091) because they 
are getting harder to find.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[David Forbes]

I did a simple study of that issue back in 2002, which is findable in 
the early yahoo group archives.


The tubes are 'on' for less time, but the current needs to be somewhat 
higher for a similar apparent brightness. The tube life is proportional 
to something like i^-3 for higher currents. With a 1/6 duty cycle 
multiplexed clock running at twice the current of an always-on clock, 
the tube life will be similar but the display a bit less bright appearing.


I've been running my multiplexed ZM1040 clock in my living room for 13 
years with no problems.



On 9/11/14 5:26 AM, Niek wrote:

I never read any evidence in datasheets or elsewhere that tells me
multiplexed tubes last shorter than directly driven tubes, despite the
somewhat higher current required for similar brightness. Is this really the
case? What do you base this on? In LED's, this generally evens out, and the
datasheet will specify what pulse frequency & current will work (a higher
current is allowed because it's the average current that matters to heat,
etc.).

By the way, that LCD completely defeats the purpose of the nixies - such a
shame he tacked that on there :(


On Friday, September 5, 2014 9:38:13 PM UTC+2, MichaelB wrote:


"Seems silly to me to save a few dollars by multiplexing when the tubes
are so costly." My thoughts exactly!








--
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[neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[Nick]

Didn't sell at that price.

Nick

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[Niek]

I never read any evidence in datasheets or elsewhere that tells me 
multiplexed tubes last shorter than directly driven tubes, despite the 
somewhat higher current required for similar brightness. Is this really the 
case? What do you base this on? In LED's, this generally evens out, and the 
datasheet will specify what pulse frequency & current will work (a higher 
current is allowed because it's the average current that matters to heat, 
etc.). 

By the way, that LCD completely defeats the purpose of the nixies - such a 
shame he tacked that on there :( 


On Friday, September 5, 2014 9:38:13 PM UTC+2, MichaelB wrote:
>
> "Seems silly to me to save a few dollars by multiplexing when the tubes 
> are so costly." My thoughts exactly!
>
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[David Forbes]

On 9/4/14 12:22 PM, gregebert wrote:

I'm sure some nixie zealots might disagree with me here, but in my opinion
the cost vs. size math doesn't justify spending* that* much on a 50mm tube.
The IN-18 tubes are an impressive 40mm, for about 1/10 the cost.

Despite a few temptations, I have stayed away from digits larger than 20mm,
partly for cost reasons, but also because the large digits seem skinny &
dim compared to smaller tubes. It appears that cathodes are not made
'fatter' for larger tubes, probably because that would impair visibility of
other digits and they would also reflect more.

I see 'Fake Gigantic Nixies'  in my future.




I agree. I'm quite happy with my ZM1040 clock. It is a nice size for a 
standard living room. Plus, the tubes cost only $9 each back when I 
built it in 2002.


I remember people on the yahoo neonixie list giving me a hard time (for 
profiteering!?!) for reselling those tubes for $15 each after importing 
them from Switzerland. Tee hee!



--
David Forbes, Tucson AZ

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[Wayne de Geere III]

I was thinking of this as a buy for the tube value alone. Then give those tubes 
to Michael Barile who would make me a fantastic Barile/Thomas Nixisat derived 
clock or clocks with those tubes.

On Sep 5, 2014, at 12:38 PM, MichaelB  wrote:

> "Seems silly to me to save a few dollars by multiplexing when the tubes are 
> so costly." My thoughts exactly!
> 
> On Friday, September 5, 2014 12:10:27 PM UTC-7, gregebert wrote:
> Yep, thought so, sir Nick.  Seems a shame to drive these beauties any any 
> other way than direct drive. 
> 
> Judging by the photos on Ebay, which show rather dim digits, I would guess 
> the tubes are multiplexed at their rated-current, which reduces brightness vs 
> direct-drive.
> I definitely would not boost the current to compensate for this; much safer 
> to make a new clock with direct-drive.
> 
> Seems silly to me to save a few dollars by multiplexing when the tubes are so 
> costly.
> 
> 
> 3500 euros.definitely not in my budget even if I were to sell the other 6 
> tubes and attempt to justify it as a wedding-anniversary gift
> 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[MichaelB]

"Seems silly to me to save a few dollars by multiplexing when the tubes are 
so costly." My thoughts exactly!

On Friday, September 5, 2014 12:10:27 PM UTC-7, gregebert wrote:
>
> Yep, thought so, sir Nick.  Seems a shame to drive these beauties any any 
>> other way than direct drive. 
>>
>
> Judging by the photos on Ebay, which show rather dim digits, I would guess 
> the tubes are multiplexed at their rated-current, which reduces brightness 
> vs direct-drive.
> I definitely would *not* boost the current to compensate for this; much 
> safer to make a new clock with direct-drive.
>
> Seems silly to me to save a few dollars by multiplexing when the tubes are 
> so costly.
>
>
> 3500 euros.definitely not in my budget even if I were to sell the 
> other 6 tubes and attempt to justify it as a wedding-anniversary gift
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[gregebert]

>
> Yep, thought so, sir Nick.  Seems a shame to drive these beauties any any 
> other way than direct drive. 
>

Judging by the photos on Ebay, which show rather dim digits, I would guess 
the tubes are multiplexed at their rated-current, which reduces brightness 
vs direct-drive.
I definitely would *not* boost the current to compensate for this; much 
safer to make a new clock with direct-drive.

Seems silly to me to save a few dollars by multiplexing when the tubes are 
so costly.


3500 euros.definitely not in my budget even if I were to sell the other 
6 tubes and attempt to justify it as a wedding-anniversary gift

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[neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[GastonP]

It is funny to verify yet again that that one man's trash is another's 
treasure...

I was just going to post that the LCD robbed much if not all of this 
clock's "charm". :)

Gastón

On Thursday, September 4, 2014 9:58:57 AM UTC-3, Nick wrote:
>
>
>  

>  I like the little LCD with extra data. 
>
 

>
> Nick
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[MichaelB]

Yep, thought so, sir Nick.  Seems a shame to drive these beauties any any 
other way than direct drive. 

On Thursday, September 4, 2014 9:19:51 PM UTC-7, Pramanicin wrote:
>
> Yep, it's a multiplex design...
>
> http://www.nixieclocks.de/english/nixieclockkit/pcbversion108/index.php
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 6:41 PM, MichaelB  > wrote:
>
>> Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't his electronics muxed?
>>
>> On Thursday, September 4, 2014 5:58:57 AM UTC-7, Nick wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/301302736983 - comes with 6 spare tubes for 
>>> 12 x Z568M in total.
>>>
>>> Not my auction - nice clock with some neat features - I like the little 
>>> LCD with extra data.
>>>
>>> A bit "solid" for my personal tastes and the photos don't do it justice 
>>> - the lighting washes out the digits so the tubes look a bit bland, which 
>>> is unfortunate as they are amongst my favourites...
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
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>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[Dalibor Farný]

Hi,

Fatter digits for big tubes would mean (much) higher current, which is
proportional to digit surface. This mean higher power consumption and also
earlier end of the tube because of shorts caused by higher amount of
sputtered metal from cathodes deposited on insulator rings..
but it is worth of experiment, one day..

sent from phone

Dalibor Farny
http://www.daliborfarny.com
 On Sep 4, 2014 9:22 PM, "gregebert"  wrote:

> I'm sure some nixie zealots might disagree with me here, but in my opinion
> the cost vs. size math doesn't justify spending* that* much on a 50mm
> tube. The IN-18 tubes are an impressive 40mm, for about 1/10 the cost.
>
> Despite a few temptations, I have stayed away from digits larger than
> 20mm, partly for cost reasons, but also because the large digits seem
> skinny & dim compared to smaller tubes. It appears that cathodes are not
> made 'fatter' for larger tubes, probably because that would impair
> visibility of other digits and they would also reflect more.
>
> I see 'Fake Gigantic Nixies'  in my future.
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[Nicholas Stock]

Yep, it's a multiplex design...

http://www.nixieclocks.de/english/nixieclockkit/pcbversion108/index.php


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 6:41 PM, MichaelB  wrote:

> Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't his electronics muxed?
>
> On Thursday, September 4, 2014 5:58:57 AM UTC-7, Nick wrote:
>>
>> http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/301302736983 - comes with 6 spare tubes for
>> 12 x Z568M in total.
>>
>> Not my auction - nice clock with some neat features - I like the little
>> LCD with extra data.
>>
>> A bit "solid" for my personal tastes and the photos don't do it justice -
>> the lighting washes out the digits so the tubes look a bit bland, which is
>> unfortunate as they are amongst my favourites...
>>
>> Nick
>>
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[neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[MichaelB]

Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't his electronics muxed?

On Thursday, September 4, 2014 5:58:57 AM UTC-7, Nick wrote:
>
> http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/301302736983 - comes with 6 spare tubes for 
> 12 x Z568M in total.
>
> Not my auction - nice clock with some neat features - I like the little 
> LCD with extra data.
>
> A bit "solid" for my personal tastes and the photos don't do it justice - 
> the lighting washes out the digits so the tubes look a bit bland, which is 
> unfortunate as they are amongst my favourites...
>
> Nick
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[kay486]

well even ZM1042 / Z5660M look so much better than IN-18, there is a huge 
difference in quality/appearance when it comes to the russina tubes.

On Thursday, 4 September 2014 20:22:34 UTC+1, gregebert wrote:
>
> I'm sure some nixie zealots might disagree with me here, but in my opinion 
> the cost vs. size math doesn't justify spending* that* much on a 50mm 
> tube. The IN-18 tubes are an impressive 40mm, for about 1/10 the cost.
>
> Despite a few temptations, I have stayed away from digits larger than 
> 20mm, partly for cost reasons, but also because the large digits seem 
> skinny & dim compared to smaller tubes. It appears that cathodes are not 
> made 'fatter' for larger tubes, probably because that would impair 
> visibility of other digits and they would also reflect more.
>
> I see 'Fake Gigantic Nixies'  in my future.
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[gregebert]

I'm sure some nixie zealots might disagree with me here, but in my opinion 
the cost vs. size math doesn't justify spending* that* much on a 50mm tube. 
The IN-18 tubes are an impressive 40mm, for about 1/10 the cost.

Despite a few temptations, I have stayed away from digits larger than 20mm, 
partly for cost reasons, but also because the large digits seem skinny & 
dim compared to smaller tubes. It appears that cathodes are not made 
'fatter' for larger tubes, probably because that would impair visibility of 
other digits and they would also reflect more.

I see 'Fake Gigantic Nixies'  in my future.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[kay486]

now thats something that doesent pop up everyday!

On Thursday, 4 September 2014 13:58:57 UTC+1, Nick wrote:
>
> http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/301302736983 - comes with 6 spare tubes for 
> 12 x Z568M in total.
>
> Not my auction - nice clock with some neat features - I like the little 
> LCD with extra data.
>
> A bit "solid" for my personal tastes and the photos don't do it justice - 
> the lighting washes out the digits so the tubes look a bit bland, which is 
> unfortunate as they are amongst my favourites...
>
> Nick
>

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