Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Thomas Kummer]

I gotcha so would this circuit work? 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 27, 2018, at 07:32, Paul Andrews  wrote:
> 
> It just shows that the 50V is relative to ground. So the 'ground' of the the 
> 50V supply and the ground of the rest of the circuit are tied together.
> 
> I'm putting 'ground' in quotes, because it is really 0V. 
> 
>> On Dec 27, 2018, at 1:20 AM, Thomas Kummer  wrote:
>> 
>> What does the dotted line from the ground to the 50V line mean? Did you 
>> short it? I bought some of these and have been studying your schematic, but 
>> I cant figure out what that means. 
>> 
>>> On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 2:11:32 PM UTC-5, Paul Andrews wrote:
>>> Here is a schematic. Some notes about it: The filament (aka the cathode) 
>>> should always have 1V across it. It has to be warm. When it is warm it has 
>>> a resistance of about 30R. So the purpose of the resistor network there is 
>>> that it cuts the 12V up into 3V, 1V and 8V (approximately). The filament is 
>>> raised to 3V above 0 because we need to be able to vary the grid voltage 
>>> from -3V to 0V with respect to the filament. So in this case, with the 
>>> filament held at +3V, we can vary the grid voltage from 0V to +3V. When the 
>>> grid is at 0V (-3V wrt to the filament), the lamp is fully off. When the 
>>> grid is at +3V (0V wrt the filament), the lamp is fully on.
>>> 
>>> I made the grid voltage variable with the little resistor network off to 
>>> the left, just to demonstrate this.
>>> 
>>> I created the 50V anode potential with a 200K/100K resistor network across 
>>> a 150V nixie power supply I happened to have. BTW, the tube will glow with 
>>> an anode voltage all the way down to about 23V, so 3x9V batteries in series 
>>> would be enough to get a glow out of it.
>>> 
>>> In reality my 12V power supply was more like 10.5V so the resistor values I 
>>> used were a little different. Also, the resistance from the anode to ground 
>>> is not infinite, so the actual voltage of my nixie power supply was more 
>>> like 220V, which I produced gradually to make sure I didn't go over 50V. 
>>> Obviously an actual 50V power supply would be better!
>>> 
>>> All of this is just to demonstrate the principles of the DM160, rather than 
>>> to act as a recipe for how they should actually be controlled! I broke two 
>>> lamps while experimenting, in different ways. In the first lamp I applied 
>>> >1V to the filament and it burned out after a few seconds!. Second, a 
>>> filament shorted to the grid so I couldn't control the grid voltage any 
>>> more. The first problem was just me being dumb. I have no idea why the 
>>> second problem occurred, so you have been warned! Fortunately these lamps 
>>> are cheap, but I am concerned that there is no apparent reason for the 
>>> second problem...
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>> Google Groups "neonixie-l" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/neonixie-l/JMUjZb3iSUY/unsubscribe.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
>> neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web, visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/3fbfc74c-6353-433a-b258-5d1fb8127fd3%40googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "neonixie-l" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/CABCPn3ijYYcSxQ9zGLcY6dQJVH5Q%3DEBUejp56A2kghO_xt1ouw%40mail.gmail.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/73BCAD32-D5E5-4B8C-A601-FD69D7994619%40gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Paul Andrews]

It just shows that the 50V is relative to ground. So the 'ground' of the
the 50V supply and the ground of the rest of the circuit are tied together.

I'm putting 'ground' in quotes, because it is really 0V.

On Dec 27, 2018, at 1:20 AM, Thomas Kummer  wrote:

What does the dotted line from the ground to the 50V line mean? Did you
short it? I bought some of these and have been studying your schematic, but
I cant figure out what that means.

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 2:11:32 PM UTC-5, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> Here is a schematic. Some notes about it: The filament (aka the cathode)
> should always have 1V across it. It has to be warm. When it is warm it has
> a resistance of about 30R. So the purpose of the resistor network there is
> that it cuts the 12V up into 3V, 1V and 8V (approximately). The filament is
> raised to 3V above 0 because we need to be able to vary the grid voltage
> from -3V to 0V with respect to the filament. So in this case, with the
> filament held at +3V, we can vary the grid voltage from 0V to +3V. When the
> grid is at 0V (-3V wrt to the filament), the lamp is fully off. When the
> grid is at +3V (0V wrt the filament), the lamp is fully on.
>
> I made the grid voltage variable with the little resistor network off to
> the left, just to demonstrate this.
>
> I created the 50V anode potential with a 200K/100K resistor network across
> a 150V nixie power supply I happened to have. BTW, the tube will glow with
> an anode voltage all the way down to about 23V, so 3x9V batteries in series
> would be enough to get a glow out of it.
>
> In reality my 12V power supply was more like 10.5V so the resistor values
> I used were a little different. Also, the resistance from the anode to
> ground is not infinite, so the actual voltage of my nixie power supply was
> more like 220V, which I produced gradually to make sure I didn't go over
> 50V. Obviously an actual 50V power supply would be better!
>
> All of this is just to demonstrate the principles of the DM160, rather
> than to act as a recipe for how they should actually be controlled! I broke
> two lamps while experimenting, in different ways. In the first lamp I
> applied >1V to the filament and it burned out after a few seconds!. Second,
> a filament shorted to the grid so I couldn't control the grid voltage any
> more. The first problem was just me being dumb. I have no idea why the
> second problem occurred, so you have been warned! Fortunately these lamps
> are cheap, but I am concerned that there is no apparent reason for the
> second problem...
>
-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
Google Groups "neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/neonixie-l/JMUjZb3iSUY/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/3fbfc74c-6353-433a-b258-5d1fb8127fd3%40googlegroups.com

.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/CABCPn3ijYYcSxQ9zGLcY6dQJVH5Q%3DEBUejp56A2kghO_xt1ouw%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Thomas Kummer]

What does the dotted line from the ground to the 50V line mean? Did you 
short it? I bought some of these and have been studying your schematic, but 
I cant figure out what that means. 

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 2:11:32 PM UTC-5, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> Here is a schematic. Some notes about it: The filament (aka the cathode) 
> should always have 1V across it. It has to be warm. When it is warm it has 
> a resistance of about 30R. So the purpose of the resistor network there is 
> that it cuts the 12V up into 3V, 1V and 8V (approximately). The filament is 
> raised to 3V above 0 because we need to be able to vary the grid voltage 
> from -3V to 0V with respect to the filament. So in this case, with the 
> filament held at +3V, we can vary the grid voltage from 0V to +3V. When the 
> grid is at 0V (-3V wrt to the filament), the lamp is fully off. When the 
> grid is at +3V (0V wrt the filament), the lamp is fully on.
>
> I made the grid voltage variable with the little resistor network off to 
> the left, just to demonstrate this.
>
> I created the 50V anode potential with a 200K/100K resistor network across 
> a 150V nixie power supply I happened to have. BTW, the tube will glow with 
> an anode voltage all the way down to about 23V, so 3x9V batteries in series 
> would be enough to get a glow out of it.
>
> In reality my 12V power supply was more like 10.5V so the resistor values 
> I used were a little different. Also, the resistance from the anode to 
> ground is not infinite, so the actual voltage of my nixie power supply was 
> more like 220V, which I produced gradually to make sure I didn't go over 
> 50V. Obviously an actual 50V power supply would be better!
>
> All of this is just to demonstrate the principles of the DM160, rather 
> than to act as a recipe for how they should actually be controlled! I broke 
> two lamps while experimenting, in different ways. In the first lamp I 
> applied >1V to the filament and it burned out after a few seconds!. Second, 
> a filament shorted to the grid so I couldn't control the grid voltage any 
> more. The first problem was just me being dumb. I have no idea why the 
> second problem occurred, so you have been warned! Fortunately these lamps 
> are cheap, but I am concerned that there is no apparent reason for the 
> second problem...
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/3fbfc74c-6353-433a-b258-5d1fb8127fd3%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Nick]

While the DM160 was the first "VFD" (about 1958), Noritake claim the 
invention of the digit display.

Their web site is a goldmine of information - start with 
https://www.noritake-elec.com/technology/general-technical-information/vfd-operation

They also produce a VFD variant that is specifically designed for audio 
use: the NuTube 6P1, see http://www.nutube.us/ - that's the USA distributor 
- it's actually Pete Millett, who some here may know for his many DIY audio 
designs.

Nick

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/829eab5b-04cd-41db-bb44-edf5d44f36b5%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Dekatron42]

Here's some more information on the 
DM160: http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aai0056.htm where you can see them being 
used in mainframe computers. We used a small testplug with a row of DM160 
to push over the pins on the backplane on mainframe computers (don't 
remember if it was a Siemens or an IBM mainframe though, could have been an 
Amdahl to) to check the logic level signals. A few books describe these 
DM160 complete with the circuit diagram used to interface them to 
transistor logic.

One thing that almost all circuit diagram points out is the use of a grid 
resistor from 100K to 1M to limit the grid current. Some people have even 
built small amplifiers out of these, they are triodes so why not. Just 
google "vfd triode" or "nutube" that Korg/Noritake named theirs.

/Martin

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/1b0dd47f-9b75-4033-bbdf-a064b3bf5c95%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Tidak Ada]

Look also for uranium glass stuff, especially marbles what are also good 
sources.

 

eric

 

Van: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] Namens 
Paul Andrews
Verzonden: maandag 13 maart 2017 18:12
Aan: neonixie-l
Onderwerp: [neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

 

An important point: The current through the filament should be 30mA. That is 
the real reason why resistor network is like it is. A = V/R. Where V=11 (the 
voltage we are throwing away from the 12V supply, R=370 (100+270). So A = 
11/370 ~= 0.03.

On Thursday, March 9, 2017 at 9:32:32 PM UTC-5, Paul Andrews wrote:

I just impulsively bought some DM160 VFD indicators and now I am at a loss as 
to how to power them! Can anyone help?

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/5d5cef0f-7c18-4934-a27a-e13ce284fd3a%40googlegroups.com
 
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/5d5cef0f-7c18-4934-a27a-e13ce284fd3a%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
 .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/!%26!AAAYAPDddShx705MuX20yCpp0vvCgAAAEDP3VU9f9FtLiZmsji1MiecBAA%3D%3D%40zeelandnet.nl.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Paul Andrews]

An important point: The current through the filament should be 30mA. That 
is the real reason why resistor network is like it is. A = V/R. Where V=11 
(the voltage we are throwing away from the 12V supply, R=370 (100+270). So 
A = 11/370 ~= 0.03.

On Thursday, March 9, 2017 at 9:32:32 PM UTC-5, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> I just impulsively bought some DM160 VFD indicators and now I am at a loss 
> as to how to power them! Can anyone help?
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/5d5cef0f-7c18-4934-a27a-e13ce284fd3a%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Manuel Azevedo]

Thank you!

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/8A0F10AD-8DE6-4237-AAF9-351AA3902353%40azevedomail.net.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Paul Andrews]

Here is a schematic. Some notes about it: The filament (aka the cathode) 
should always have 1V across it. It has to be warm. When it is warm it has 
a resistance of about 30R. So the purpose of the resistor network there is 
that it cuts the 12V up into 3V, 1V and 8V (approximately). The filament is 
raised to 3V above 0 because we need to be able to vary the grid voltage 
from -3V to 0V with respect to the filament. So in this case, with the 
filament held at +3V, we can vary the grid voltage from 0V to +3V. When the 
grid is at 0V (-3V wrt to the filament), the lamp is fully off. When the 
grid is at +3V (0V wrt the filament), the lamp is fully on.

I made the grid voltage variable with the little resistor network off to 
the left, just to demonstrate this.

I created the 50V anode potential with a 200K/100K resistor network across 
a 150V nixie power supply I happened to have. BTW, the tube will glow with 
an anode voltage all the way down to about 23V, so 3x9V batteries in series 
would be enough to get a glow out of it.

In reality my 12V power supply was more like 10.5V so the resistor values I 
used were a little different. Also, the resistance from the anode to ground 
is not infinite, so the actual voltage of my nixie power supply was more 
like 220V, which I produced gradually to make sure I didn't go over 50V. 
Obviously an actual 50V power supply would be better!

All of this is just to demonstrate the principles of the DM160, rather than 
to act as a recipe for how they should actually be controlled! I broke two 
lamps while experimenting, in different ways. In the first lamp I applied 
>1V to the filament and it burned out after a few seconds!. Second, a 
filament shorted to the grid so I couldn't control the grid voltage any 
more. The first problem was just me being dumb. I have no idea why the 
second problem occurred, so you have been warned! Fortunately these lamps 
are cheap, but I am concerned that there is no apparent reason for the 
second problem...

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/9112e349-b737-427f-aca8-d09f0997b465%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Roddy Scott]

Make a binary clock!

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 3:08:25 AM UTC, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> A closeup of the filament structure. This is what attracted me to these 
> tubes. Now I just have to figure out what I want to do with them!
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/65bc5631-e147-43b3-813c-a33c6f5221fd%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Manuel Azevedo]

Me too please!
Thanks!

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/10afbd55-e9e6-41a9-86ea-fb3d174df0e1%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Dylan Distasio]

I'd be interested in your schematic, thanks.

On Mar 11, 2017 8:36 PM, "Paul Andrews"  wrote:

> Finally I get it. If anyone is interested I will work on a schematic. I
> should probably do that for my own benefit anyway.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "neonixie-l" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/
> msgid/neonixie-l/a5736e41-4ae4-43cb-b125-e3cebec6874a%40googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/CAJrqPH99u9OCRNAf3d-ANYJuAnw0Ew8tgctAj0i-hD8jHfGHfA%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Paul Andrews]

Boy did I buy myself into a hole with this one! I had just about got to grips 
with Nixie tubes, now I have a whole new technology to learn; I'm sure a lot of 
the folks on this list know the ins and outs of triodes - I'm not one of them! 
I will get there eventually though.

Apologies if what follows seems impossibly naive. That's because it is!

It seems there is no getting away from driving the anode at 50V. I'm currently 
trying to figure out how I can do that given what I have on hand, before I 
order the parts I need to build an actual 50V supply. Basically buying a bunch 
of 9V batteries or making a simple voltage divider for one of my nixie power 
supplies.

I am a little concerned about limiting the current. Do I have to or will it 
just draw the current it needs?

I'm also slowly wrapping my head around -Ve voltages. I think I am gathering 
that the filament is held at a constant voltage and then you tweak the grid 
voltage to make it +Ve or -Ve with respect to that. Or maybe the other way 
around. I've not quite got that straight yet! Most of what I can find on the 
web wants to make oscillators or amplifiers or VU meters out of these. All of 
which sounds like fun, but right now I just want to light one up!

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"neonixie-l" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/2b70b323-a598-4c85-918b-d691ee2b5927%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.