[neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Nick]

Glad it's sorted.

We're not too religious here about keeping threads personal or totally on track 
+ it all seems to sort itself out in the end... :)

Cheers

Nick

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Paul Atkin]

As this is the first time I have ever done hot air work, I really don't
feel qualified to answer, but...

The chip I was replacing was an SOIC-8 package closely surrounded by
numerous smaller components that I was very wary of accidentally moving.
Initially I used the smallest nozzle (about 2.5mm) to try to aim the air
just at the pins but it was too restrictive so I went up to a nozzle around
5mm diameter using 370degC with airflow set on 5 (out of 8)

Once I got the chip off, there was plenty of solder remaining on the pads
so I only added some flux, positioned the new chip and started heating.
Only took about 15 seconds for the solder to start to melt then I held the
heat for a little longer.

What I have read recently is that the two major conditions to adjust
heating for are chip size and thermal mass of the board.  As the number of
layers goes up the heating requirement goes up massively.

On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 9:54 AM Terry Kennedy 
wrote:

> On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 7:29:36 PM UTC-5, gregebert wrote:
>>
>> Paul - Can you post some details about the hot-air soldering/reflow you
>> did ?
>>
>> I'm soldering my SMT devices manually by hand because my casual
>> experimenting with a heat-gun got bubbled PCBs and very hot (and probably
>> damaged) ICs.
>>
>
> When doing assembly (as opposed to re-work) a few parts at a time, the
> idea is to pre-heat the board (usually via IR to the underside) to a
> bit below the melting point of the solder paste you're using, then use the
> air gun to melt the solder paste you put under the parts you're
> soldering. That way you don't need a ton of very hot air coming out of the
> nozzle, since that would end up overheating the component before the board
> got hot enough for the paste to stick to the traces. Re-work is a bit more
> of a mixed bag, since you may have components on both sides of the board
> and the parts you're trying to remove are usually larger than the ones you
> want to leave in place - people starting out tend to blow things like
> resistors / caps off the board while heating the part to be removed. Even
> with the exact matching nozzle on the air gun, that air has to go
> somewhere. Pre-heat also helps with this, though you'll likely want a lower
> temperature so any parts on the underside aren't at risk.
>
> Preheating also helps with some through-hole rework - I do a lot of
> work on Cisco boards (8 to 12-layer) and things like power supply caps
> are connected to interior layers that are pretty slab-like. And Cisco
> doesn't seem to like to use relief areas arround those inner-layer holes
>
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[neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Terry Kennedy]

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 7:29:36 PM UTC-5, gregebert wrote:
>
> Paul - Can you post some details about the hot-air soldering/reflow you 
> did ?
>
> I'm soldering my SMT devices manually by hand because my casual 
> experimenting with a heat-gun got bubbled PCBs and very hot (and probably 
> damaged) ICs.
>

When doing assembly (as opposed to re-work) a few parts at a time, the idea 
is to pre-heat the board (usually via IR to the underside) to a bit below 
the melting point of the solder paste you're using, then use the air gun to 
melt the solder paste you put under the parts you're soldering. That way 
you don't need a ton of very hot air coming out of the nozzle, since that 
would end up overheating the component before the board got hot enough for 
the paste to stick to the traces. Re-work is a bit more of a mixed bag, 
since you may have components on both sides of the board and the parts 
you're trying to remove are usually larger than the ones you want to leave 
in place - people starting out tend to blow things like resistors / caps 
off the board while heating the part to be removed. Even with the exact 
matching nozzle on the air gun, that air has to go somewhere. Pre-heat also 
helps with this, though you'll likely want a lower temperature so any parts 
on the underside aren't at risk.

Preheating also helps with some through-hole rework - I do a lot of work on 
Cisco boards (8 to 12-layer) and things like power supply caps 
are connected to interior layers that are pretty slab-like. And Cisco 
doesn't seem to like to use relief areas arround those inner-layer holes 

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[neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[gregebert]

Paul - Can you post some details about the hot-air soldering/reflow you did 
?

I'm soldering my SMT devices manually by hand because my casual 
experimenting with a heat-gun got bubbled PCBs and very hot (and probably 
damaged) ICs.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Paul Atkin]

Well I am really not sure how this forum is supposed to work.  It seems 
that I cannot post to the last reply and my thread seems to have been 
hijacked.

However, I am pleased to say that thanks to the input from Dieter on 
diagnosing the failed IC03 (UCC38084D) I purchased some replacements from 
Mouser and decided to take the plunge and bought one of the (in)famous 858D 
hot air clones and after a bit of practice on some junk boards I felt 
confident enough to start the surgery.

Actually doing the job, was not difficult just a bit stressful.  After 
removing the old chip, I dabbed a bit of flux on the board pads from a flux 
pen and re-soldering went very easily.

All went well and as I plugged in the 12V supply to test the voltages, the 
neon colons were happily glowing.

The clock is now reassembled and back in its place in my showcase glowing 
as good as ever.

So once again, thanks to all who chimed in on this and a special thanks to 
Dieter for his very quick support.



On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 7:03:45 PM UTC+9, Paul Atkin wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> I have an IN-18 Blue Dream that has run happily for 6 years in a dust free 
> display case.  During that time, I had just one tube go bad with an 
> apparent gas leak.
>
> I have been operating it on a timer so it only powers on every evening 
> which has also worked fine.
>
> Just a few days ago, the tubes didn't light up when expected.  I powered 
> it up on a second 12V supply (confirmed working) but no joy.  The LED's 
> light up, but on initial inspection it seems I have lost the internal 
> 170VDC power.  I am not a specialist and have no schematic so I was 
> wondering if anyone has skills or knowledge to help me troubleshoot this.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Paul
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Dan Hollis]

Not sure how rural you are, but you might look for makerspaces in japan 
and take a visit to the closest one. Someone there should be able to help 
you if they have electronics soldering stations.


-Dan

On Thu, 13 Dec 2018, Paul Atkin wrote:


Hi Nick, thanks for the welcome.  I had a maiI from Pramacin and I also
sent a mail direct to Dieter.  He has replied so I will share what I have
learned so far in case it can be of use to anyone else.
First point is that my clock had run flawlessly on the same power supply
for 6 years.  I run it at selected hours on a 7 day timer, around 40 hours
per week (so about 12,000 hours running in total with 5 of the original
tubes - had one with a gas leak that I replaced about 2 years ago).
I sent a mail to Dieter and he was very helpful to diagnose the possible
issue within 36 hours.  He gave me some points to test the voltages as per
the red text on the attached image. Based on the results I got he strongly
believes it is IC03 on the PCB (yellow circle) which is a UCC38084 current
mode controller in an SO-8 SMD package .  It can be replaced with a
UCC38084D, UCC38084DR or a UCC38084DG4.
It was likely taken out by the 12V power supply which I found was dead so I
am guessing that when it died, it sent a spike into the clock.
Unfortunately, he is not prepared to make a repair on the board and I as am
in rural Japan so I'd need to ship it somewhere in any case.  I don't think
I'll be able to find anyone locally that will do the job.
I have some soldering experience but have never tried reworking SMD chips.
If I was going to attempt this I would need a hot air station but I don't
do enough to warrant buying anything fancy.  So I am thinking to take my
time and try to learn a new skill.  I saw a report from Dave at EEVblog who
rates the simple 858D rework station good value and seems to work well
enough for small jobs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vva2t21sOAs
If anyone knows of another cheap unit I'd love to hear - I really don't
want to spend much at this time.
I have a few old boards laying around that I could hone my skills on before
attempting a hack at the Blue Dream.  If I find it too challenging, I might
contact here again [image: ]

If I manage to get this running again, I am going to use the best quality
12V supply and a shitload of capacitors!!

Paul


On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 7:03:45 PM UTC+9, Paul Atkin wrote:


Hi All,
I have an IN-18 Blue Dream that has run happily for 6 years in a dust free
display case.  During that time, I had just one tube go bad with an
apparent gas leak.

I have been operating it on a timer so it only powers on every evening
which has also worked fine.

Just a few days ago, the tubes didn't light up when expected.  I powered
it up on a second 12V supply (confirmed working) but no joy.  The LED's
light up, but on initial inspection it seems I have lost the internal
170VDC power.  I am not a specialist and have no schematic so I was
wondering if anyone has skills or knowledge to help me troubleshoot this.

Thanks in advance

Paul



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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[loknar28]

Yes, that is the way to do it.
Get a flux pen
Kester 83-1097-2331 Organic Water Soluble Liquid Flux Pen for Lead-Bearing and 
Lead Free Alloy, 0.33 fl. oz. 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0089ERAY8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_338eCb93ZEYR2

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 13, 2018, at 22:32, Nicholas Stock  wrote:
> 
> Hear hear Jeff, wise words.
> 
> Nick
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 13, 2018, at 18:19, Jeff Walton  wrote:
>> 
>> You could easily replace this with a solder iron.  
>> 
>> - Simply use a small wire clipper and cut the leads next to the body of the 
>> old part.  
>> 
>> - Then unsolder the leads from the board, one at a time and use a tweezer or 
>> equivalent to remove the remains of the old part. . 
>> 
>> - Use some solder wick across the pads on the PCB to remove excess solder to 
>> get them ready for the new part
>> 
>> - Use a flux pen or equivalent on the pads 
>> 
>> - Place the new part on the pads until it is lined up over the pads and tack 
>> one corner on each side. 
>> 
>> - Check the alignment and use your flux pen again across the pads
>> 
>> - With a clean, small solder iron tip, carry a small amount of fresh solder 
>> and drag the iron across the leads slowly to let the flux and solder wet the 
>> pads on one side at a time. 
>> 
>> - Repeat on the other side 
>> 
>> - Too much flux won't hurt!  The flux and solder resist on the PCB will 
>> generally prevent a solder bridge. 
>> 
>> - If you need to re-do anything, get one side right first before starting on 
>> the other. 
>> 
>> - YouTube is your friend if you want to study the technique.  The part that 
>> you are looking at replacing is not difficult for you to start with. 
>> 
>> You can do this! 
>> 
>> - Jeff
>> 
>>  Original message 
>> From: Paul Atkin 
>> Date: 12/13/18 7:51 PM (GMT-06:00)
>> To: neonixie-l 
>> Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream
>> 
>> Sorry, I forgot to post the PCB image
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 7:03:45 PM UTC+9, Paul Atkin wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> I have an IN-18 Blue Dream that has run happily for 6 years in a dust free 
>>> display case.  During that time, I had just one tube go bad with an 
>>> apparent gas leak.
>>> 
>>> I have been operating it on a timer so it only powers on every evening 
>>> which has also worked fine.
>>> 
>>> Just a few days ago, the tubes didn't light up when expected.  I powered it 
>>> up on a second 12V supply (confirmed working) but no joy.  The LED's light 
>>> up, but on initial inspection it seems I have lost the internal 170VDC 
>>> power.  I am not a specialist and have no schematic so I was wondering if 
>>> anyone has skills or knowledge to help me troubleshoot this.
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance
>>> 
>>> Paul
>> 
>> -- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Paul Atkin]

Thanks so much for the support, including the private replies.  I have 
ordered some replacement chips, I have some old boards at home I will try 
this out on before I commit to the repair job.

Cheers, Paul


On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 11:20:00 AM UTC+9, Jeff Walton wrote:
>
> You could easily replace this with a solder iron.  
>
> - Simply use a small wire clipper and cut the leads next to the body of 
> the old part.  
>
> - Then unsolder the leads from the board, one at a time and use a tweezer 
> or equivalent to remove the remains of the old part. . 
>
> - Use some solder wick across the pads on the PCB to remove excess solder 
> to get them ready for the new part
>
> - Use a flux pen or equivalent on the pads 
>
> - Place the new part on the pads until it is lined up over the pads and 
> tack one corner on each side. 
>
> - Check the alignment and use your flux pen again across the pads
>
> - With a clean, small solder iron tip, carry a small amount of fresh 
> solder and drag the iron across the leads slowly to let the flux and solder 
> wet the pads on one side at a time. 
>
> - Repeat on the other side 
>
> - Too much flux won't hurt!  The flux and solder resist on the PCB will 
> generally prevent a solder bridge. 
>
> - If you need to re-do anything, get one side right first before starting 
> on the other. 
>
> - YouTube is your friend if you want to study the technique.  The part 
> that you are looking at replacing is not difficult for you to start with. 
>
> You can do this! 
>
> - Jeff
>
>  Original message ----
> From: Paul Atkin > 
> Date: 12/13/18 7:51 PM (GMT-06:00) 
> To: neonixie-l > 
> Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream 
>
> Sorry, I forgot to post the PCB image
>
> [image: testpoints_2a.jpg]
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 7:03:45 PM UTC+9, Paul Atkin wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>> I have an IN-18 Blue Dream that has run happily for 6 years in a dust 
>> free display case.  During that time, I had just one tube go bad with an 
>> apparent gas leak.
>>
>> I have been operating it on a timer so it only powers on every evening 
>> which has also worked fine.
>>
>> Just a few days ago, the tubes didn't light up when expected.  I powered 
>> it up on a second 12V supply (confirmed working) but no joy.  The LED's 
>> light up, but on initial inspection it seems I have lost the internal 
>> 170VDC power.  I am not a specialist and have no schematic so I was 
>> wondering if anyone has skills or knowledge to help me troubleshoot this.
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> Paul
>>
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[neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Robert L]

Hi Paul,

Jeff very accurately describes how I replace most SOIC and similar low lead 
count parts... What he describes works and works well! I also really like 
hot air...

That said, here's another technique that I sometimes use and may be a bit 
easier for you if you don't have tiny diagonal cutters.

The video linked below describes flooding the pins with solder and slipping 
the part off to the side. This technique is nice if the part doesn't have 
too many leads. Works fine on SOIC-8 packages!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ_VVTyPGrU

Best regards,
Bob

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Nicholas Stock]

Hear hear Jeff, wise words.

Nick

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 13, 2018, at 18:19, Jeff Walton  wrote:
> 
> You could easily replace this with a solder iron.  
> 
> - Simply use a small wire clipper and cut the leads next to the body of the 
> old part.  
> 
> - Then unsolder the leads from the board, one at a time and use a tweezer or 
> equivalent to remove the remains of the old part. . 
> 
> - Use some solder wick across the pads on the PCB to remove excess solder to 
> get them ready for the new part
> 
> - Use a flux pen or equivalent on the pads 
> 
> - Place the new part on the pads until it is lined up over the pads and tack 
> one corner on each side. 
> 
> - Check the alignment and use your flux pen again across the pads
> 
> - With a clean, small solder iron tip, carry a small amount of fresh solder 
> and drag the iron across the leads slowly to let the flux and solder wet the 
> pads on one side at a time. 
> 
> - Repeat on the other side 
> 
> - Too much flux won't hurt!  The flux and solder resist on the PCB will 
> generally prevent a solder bridge. 
> 
> - If you need to re-do anything, get one side right first before starting on 
> the other. 
> 
> - YouTube is your friend if you want to study the technique.  The part that 
> you are looking at replacing is not difficult for you to start with. 
> 
> You can do this! 
> 
> - Jeff
> 
> ---- Original message ----
> From: Paul Atkin 
> Date: 12/13/18 7:51 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: neonixie-l 
> Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream
> 
> Sorry, I forgot to post the PCB image
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 7:03:45 PM UTC+9, Paul Atkin wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> I have an IN-18 Blue Dream that has run happily for 6 years in a dust free 
>> display case.  During that time, I had just one tube go bad with an apparent 
>> gas leak.
>> 
>> I have been operating it on a timer so it only powers on every evening which 
>> has also worked fine.
>> 
>> Just a few days ago, the tubes didn't light up when expected.  I powered it 
>> up on a second 12V supply (confirmed working) but no joy.  The LED's light 
>> up, but on initial inspection it seems I have lost the internal 170VDC 
>> power.  I am not a specialist and have no schematic so I was wondering if 
>> anyone has skills or knowledge to help me troubleshoot this.
>> 
>> Thanks in advance
>> 
>> Paul
> 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Jeff Walton]

You could easily replace this with a solder iron.  
- Simply use a small wire clipper and cut the leads next to the body of the old 
part.  
- Then unsolder the leads from the board, one at a time and use a tweezer or 
equivalent to remove the remains of the old part. . 
- Use some solder wick across the pads on the PCB to remove excess solder to 
get them ready for the new part
- Use a flux pen or equivalent on the pads 
- Place the new part on the pads until it is lined up over the pads and tack 
one corner on each side. 
- Check the alignment and use your flux pen again across the pads
- With a clean, small solder iron tip, carry a small amount of fresh solder and 
drag the iron across the leads slowly to let the flux and solder wet the pads 
on one side at a time. 
- Repeat on the other side 
- Too much flux won't hurt!  The flux and solder resist on the PCB will 
generally prevent a solder bridge. 
- If you need to re-do anything, get one side right first before starting on 
the other. 
- YouTube is your friend if you want to study the technique.  The part that you 
are looking at replacing is not difficult for you to start with. 
You can do this! 
- Jeff
 Original message From: Paul Atkin  Date: 
12/13/18  7:51 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: neonixie-l  
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream 
Sorry, I forgot to post the PCB image



On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 7:03:45 PM UTC+9, Paul Atkin wrote:Hi All,I 
have an IN-18 Blue Dream that has run happily for 6 years in a dust free 
display case.  During that time, I had just one tube go bad with an apparent 
gas leak.
I have been operating it on a timer so it only powers on every evening which 
has also worked fine.

Just a few days ago, the tubes didn't light up when expected.  I powered it up 
on a second 12V supply (confirmed working) but no joy.  The LED's light up, but 
on initial inspection it seems I have lost the internal 170VDC power.  I am not 
a specialist and have no schematic so I was wondering if anyone has skills or 
knowledge to help me troubleshoot this.
Thanks in advance
Paul




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[neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Paul Atkin]

Hi Nick, thanks for the welcome.  I had a maiI from Pramacin and I also 
sent a mail direct to Dieter.  He has replied so I will share what I have 
learned so far in case it can be of use to anyone else.
First point is that my clock had run flawlessly on the same power supply 
for 6 years.  I run it at selected hours on a 7 day timer, around 40 hours 
per week (so about 12,000 hours running in total with 5 of the original 
tubes - had one with a gas leak that I replaced about 2 years ago).
I sent a mail to Dieter and he was very helpful to diagnose the possible 
issue within 36 hours.  He gave me some points to test the voltages as per 
the red text on the attached image. Based on the results I got he strongly 
believes it is IC03 on the PCB (yellow circle) which is a UCC38084 current 
mode controller in an SO-8 SMD package .  It can be replaced with a 
UCC38084D, UCC38084DR or a UCC38084DG4.  
It was likely taken out by the 12V power supply which I found was dead so I 
am guessing that when it died, it sent a spike into the clock.
Unfortunately, he is not prepared to make a repair on the board and I as am 
in rural Japan so I'd need to ship it somewhere in any case.  I don't think 
I'll be able to find anyone locally that will do the job.
I have some soldering experience but have never tried reworking SMD chips.  
If I was going to attempt this I would need a hot air station but I don't 
do enough to warrant buying anything fancy.  So I am thinking to take my 
time and try to learn a new skill.  I saw a report from Dave at EEVblog who 
rates the simple 858D rework station good value and seems to work well 
enough for small jobs.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vva2t21sOAs
If anyone knows of another cheap unit I'd love to hear - I really don't 
want to spend much at this time.
I have a few old boards laying around that I could hone my skills on before 
attempting a hack at the Blue Dream.  If I find it too challenging, I might 
contact here again [image: ]

If I manage to get this running again, I am going to use the best quality 
12V supply and a shitload of capacitors!!

Paul


On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 7:03:45 PM UTC+9, Paul Atkin wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> I have an IN-18 Blue Dream that has run happily for 6 years in a dust free 
> display case.  During that time, I had just one tube go bad with an 
> apparent gas leak.
>
> I have been operating it on a timer so it only powers on every evening 
> which has also worked fine.
>
> Just a few days ago, the tubes didn't light up when expected.  I powered 
> it up on a second 12V supply (confirmed working) but no joy.  The LED's 
> light up, but on initial inspection it seems I have lost the internal 
> 170VDC power.  I am not a specialist and have no schematic so I was 
> wondering if anyone has skills or knowledge to help me troubleshoot this.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Paul
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Repair / Troubleshoot an IN-18 Blue Dream

[Nick]

Hi - welcome to the group.

The designer of this clock, Dieter, hangs out here so may be along shortly 
to help out...

Cheers

Nick
 

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