Re: [NetBehaviour] Postmodernism (tangent) Re:apologies (Brey)
Alan, Quite on the contrary, I think I would enjoy your class very much. Seeing the full context of your definition for postmodernism was fascinating and I don't doubt it was a shared concept among a good contingent of intellectuals. I really liked : > Semiotic emissions of symbols which appear sourceless and undirected > (Disneyland effect). > My, now quite meta, criticism was just that the word "postmodernism" is awash with many definitions and contexts in what I'll jokingly refer to as our "modern" times. Even modern-architecture is starting to fray as a concrete definition. I also teach and write, (usually techno babble) to cyberpunks, architects and engineers, "definitioning" of terms is a verb I often use to ensure the act of word grounding occurs in the realms of intellectual discourse. It's a practice that comes from writing code where word interpretation quickly leads to the mind-body problem and bugs. Re:apology I'm sorry to hear you're having rough times. I hope this too shall pass. Cheers, Brey > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 12:42:14 -0800 > From: Brey Tucker > To: netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org > Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity > of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve (Brey Tucker) > Message-ID: > mpoce...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Greetings, > > I just wanted to follow up on Alan's criticism of the word use of > "postmodernism", which I found to be even more of a misuse of the word than > the more obvious use in Max Herman's piece. Semantic shifts are unavoidable > but just in case it's not widely experienced information... Postmodernism's > word use definitively started in art, as a way to define the departure from > French Impressionism by John Watkins Chapman back in 1870. Its most > agreeable definitions are in painting and architecture. > > Intellectually, in reference to society, I would argue that Max Herman's > use is still more applicable than South American favelas as the context of > the piece was centered on "modernity", especially with its identity in > European culture and democracy, etc. being much closer to the > original publication of Arnold J. Tynbee's 1939 essay that stated, "Our own > Post-Modern Age has been inaugurated by the general war of 1914-1918". > > I would argue any use of the word "postmodern" or such variation of > "modernity" would require time to define its context as the word use is > extremely varied now across topics such as hyperreality, simulacrum and > objective reality. I quite enjoyed the way Max took the time to define it > and use it, albeit a departure from how I generally conjure postmodernism > in my mind. > > Alan, you're rich with great ideas and interesting conversation but I would > have expected more of a criticism defending Machiavelli's positive > contributions to society with the need for acceptance of cruel realities > than this niche use of a common word. > > Cheers, > Brey > -- > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 12:58:07 -0500 > > From: Alan Sondheim > > To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity > > > > Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity > > of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve > > Message-ID: > > > pi2brr4caymwbe6dskawxhuleabmax87yvkwxboqxcv7...@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Hi, > > > > Just want to point out I've taught and published and lectured on > > postmodernism, and videos I co-created with Dawja Burris dealt with the > > subject in El Paso and Ciudad Juarez and I have no idea how you're using > > the word or attacking it - it wasn't facetious, it was concerned among > > other things, with informal economies and South America favelas etc.It's > a > > complex socio-economic subject and its effects cover issues such as > > migration, homelessness, around the world. I just don't think you've read > > deeply into the subject; for example scientific methodology was an > integral > > part of the discussion. > > > > - Best, Alan > > > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 16:46:55 -0500 > From: Alan Sondheim > To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity > > Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity > of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve (Brey Tucker) > Message-ID: > sr4trgmkyccsh...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Brey, > > I'm sorry you found it a misuse. You'll find references to Toynbee and > social movements; I don't have the references here at this point, but some > were from Latin America. It was used widely to indicate social movements > and informal economies as well as cultural transformations. For you there > are agreeable definitions, they aren't for me. When I taught postmodernism > (and I'm sure you'd find the course a horror)
Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve (Brey Tucker)
Greetings, I just wanted to follow up on Alan's criticism of the word use of "postmodernism", which I found to be even more of a misuse of the word than the more obvious use in Max Herman's piece. Semantic shifts are unavoidable but just in case it's not widely experienced information... Postmodernism's word use definitively started in art, as a way to define the departure from French Impressionism by John Watkins Chapman back in 1870. Its most agreeable definitions are in painting and architecture. Intellectually, in reference to society, I would argue that Max Herman's use is still more applicable than South American favelas as the context of the piece was centered on "modernity", especially with its identity in European culture and democracy, etc. being much closer to the original publication of Arnold J. Tynbee's 1939 essay that stated, "Our own Post-Modern Age has been inaugurated by the general war of 1914-1918". I would argue any use of the word "postmodern" or such variation of "modernity" would require time to define its context as the word use is extremely varied now across topics such as hyperreality, simulacrum and objective reality. I quite enjoyed the way Max took the time to define it and use it, albeit a departure from how I generally conjure postmodernism in my mind. Alan, you're rich with great ideas and interesting conversation but I would have expected more of a criticism defending Machiavelli's positive contributions to society with the need for acceptance of cruel realities than this niche use of a common word. Cheers, Brey On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 at 03:01, wrote: > Send NetBehaviour mailing list submissions to > netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > netbehaviour-requ...@lists.netbehaviour.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > netbehaviour-ow...@lists.netbehaviour.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of NetBehaviour digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > >1. Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of Evil and a New > Saint Genevieve (Max Herman) >2. Re: Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of Evil and a > New Saint Genevieve (Alan Sondheim) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 16:01:37 + > From: Max Herman > To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity > > Subject: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of > Evil and a New Saint Genevieve > Message-ID: > < > mw4pr14mb5484602807763d3336bf0e07a5...@mw4pr14mb5484.namprd14.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > > +++ > > The modern world has problems. No longer ancient and starting sort of > from scratch, no longer medieval with short lifespans and a simple > church-state duopoly, and certainly no longer indigenous in direct mutual > dialogue with nature like a woven fabric, our problems are unique enough to > have their own name: "modernity." > > An idea, rather facetious, cropped up over fifty ? yes, fifty ? years ago > to call European culture "post-modern" instead of modern. This idea > suggested that although modernity may have had many serious problems they > no longer mattered because their "time" had passed. The time of > constitutions, including democratic ones, a public sphere of communication > (with greater or lesser freedom of speech), the idea of rights codified by > laws which were often upheld even when some official or strongperson didn't > like it, and the reality of biological nature and scientific method, well > those things were all pass?. Not only did they no longer require any > effort or attention, they had never warranted it, being nothing more than > rewritings of the tooth fairy tale. There is no quarter under your pillow, > they said, only lies. > > We shouldn't be surprised now that in 2024 the USA is fairly likely to > vote an autocrat into the presidency and democracy is being routed like > yesterday's news the world over. Autocrats from Tallahassee to Budapest > crow about being post-truth, their PR consultants throwing terms like > post-Enlightenment around like confetti, and the general mass of ordinary > people ? the only force that has ever allowed democracy to function ? has > nothing to go by except tired populism and hyper-specific outrage. Susan > Neiman explains how Foucault carried this "who cares" attitude forward from > Schmitt, who did so for Nietzsche, who is from ? well, who? Neiman's book > explains why the millions of factions within the left and center can only > blame each other for being not left enough, too left, or left in the wrong > way, and cannot reliably organize political coalitions
