Re: Rumpkernel comments by Linus

[matthew sporleder]

He hasn't looked at it so I don't think he's giving a real critique.
As far as I can tell he's talking about things like NDISwrapper or
softmodem and fails to grasp what rump is about.

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
>
> Linus seems to frown on the rumpkernel efforts since he believes it'll put
> the OS into a straight jacket (my words, not his). The original post is
> below. However, what say you folks? Is he reacting to something he doesn't
> know anything about based on his general instincts or is he making a
> legitimate critique? Is it a value-system judgment or is he missing some
> fact about the AnyKernel approach that negates his preconceptions? Is it
> simply a case that Linux already gets lots of DriverLove[tm] from the
> vendors and they just don't have to care or is that too cynical?
>
> -Swift
>
>
> ---[ Slashdot Snippet ]---
> https://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds-answers-your-question
>
> "anykernel"-style portable drivers?
> by staalmannen
>
> What do you think about the "anykernel" concept (invented by another Finn
> btw) used in NetBSD? Basically, they have modularized the code so that a
> driver can be built either in a monolithic kernel or for user space
> without source code changes ( rumpkernel.org ). The drivers are highly
> portable and used in Genode os (L4 type kernels), minix etc... Would this
> be possible or desirable for Linux? Apparently there is one attempt called
> "libos"...
>
> Linus: So I have bad experiences with "portable" drivers. Writing drivers
> to some common environment tends to force some ridiculously nasty
> impedance matching abstractions that just get in the way and make things
> really hard to read and modify. It gets particularly nasty when everybody
> ends up having complicated - and differently so - driver subsystems to
> handle a lot of commonalities for a certain class of drivers (say a
> network driver, or a USB driver), and the different operating systems
> really have very different approaches and locking rules etc.
>
> I haven't seen anykernel drivers, but from past experience my reaction to
> "portable device drivers" is to run away, screaming like little girl. As
> they say in Swedish "Brnt barn luktar illa".
>

Re: wireless configuration

[Michael van Elst]

riccardo.mott...@libero.it (Riccardo Mottola) writes:

>OpenBSD can do it and I love that. I would love that in NetBSD too. 
>wpa_supplicant can remain for the more complex cases, but get the BSD 
>simplicity back.

If it were just the command, it would be easy. But OpenBSD
integrated part of the wpa_supplicant functionality into their
wifi stack in the kernel.

-- 
-- 
Michael van Elst
Internet: mlel...@serpens.de
"A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

Rumpkernel comments by Linus

[Swift Griggs]

Linus seems to frown on the rumpkernel efforts since he believes it'll put 
the OS into a straight jacket (my words, not his). The original post is 
below. However, what say you folks? Is he reacting to something he doesn't 
know anything about based on his general instincts or is he making a 
legitimate critique? Is it a value-system judgment or is he missing some 
fact about the AnyKernel approach that negates his preconceptions? Is it 
simply a case that Linux already gets lots of DriverLove[tm] from the 
vendors and they just don't have to care or is that too cynical?

-Swift


---[ Slashdot Snippet ]---
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds-answers-your-question

"anykernel"-style portable drivers?
by staalmannen

What do you think about the "anykernel" concept (invented by another Finn 
btw) used in NetBSD? Basically, they have modularized the code so that a 
driver can be built either in a monolithic kernel or for user space 
without source code changes ( rumpkernel.org ). The drivers are highly 
portable and used in Genode os (L4 type kernels), minix etc... Would this 
be possible or desirable for Linux? Apparently there is one attempt called 
"libos"...

Linus: So I have bad experiences with "portable" drivers. Writing drivers 
to some common environment tends to force some ridiculously nasty 
impedance matching abstractions that just get in the way and make things 
really hard to read and modify. It gets particularly nasty when everybody 
ends up having complicated - and differently so - driver subsystems to 
handle a lot of commonalities for a certain class of drivers (say a 
network driver, or a USB driver), and the different operating systems 
really have very different approaches and locking rules etc.

I haven't seen anykernel drivers, but from past experience my reaction to 
"portable device drivers" is to run away, screaming like little girl. As 
they say in Swedish "Brnt barn luktar illa".

Re: HP 620 - first install and where is my wireless?

[Leonardo Taccari]

Hello Riccardo,

Riccardo Mottola writes:
> [...]
> do we have lspci in NetBSD?
Yes, there is pcictl(8) (`list' command) or if you need lspci is
provided by sysutils/pciutils package.


Ciao,
L.

Re: HP 620 - first install and where is my wireless?

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

Benny Siegert wrote:

Unfortunately, I cannot find anything that looks like a Wi-Fi device in your 
dmesg. Perhaps it is actually switched off?


Christos spotted the RT3090 device.



Try looking at lspci and a USB device dump to find out if there are any devices 
that show up as „not configured“.


do we have lspci in NetBSD?

Riccardo

Re: Realtek RTL8188EUS driver (urtwn)

[Steve Blinkhorn]

Do you know when rtwn arrived in NetBSD?   My 7.0 manual does not have
the man page you excerpt, /usr/src/sys/dev/pci has no if_rtwn_pci.c
(which I would have expected to see), and config -x | grep rtw  yields:

rtw*at pci? dev ? function ?# Realtek 8180L (802.11)
rtw*at cardbus? function ?  # Realtek 8180L (802.11)
urtw*   at uhub? port ? # Realtek RTL8187/RTL8187B 802.11b/g
urtwn*  at uhub? port ? # Realtek RTL8188CU/RTL8192CU 802.11b/g/n

So at a guess I need something more recent than stock 7.0.
Do I need just a nes kernel, or is there firmware to download as well?

--
Steve Blinkhorn 

You wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:51:06 -0400
> Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
> > st...@prd.co.uk (Steve Blinkhorn) writes:
> > 
> > > vendor 0x10ec product 0x8179 (miscellaneous network, revision 0x01) at
> > > pci3 dev 0 function 0 not configured
> > >
> > > refers to pci3, whereas from the driver name I would have thought it
> > > should appear as a usb device.
> 
> That's a PCI device, the urtwn driver is for USB devices.
> 
> > It may be that the next step is to add this vendor/product to the PCI
> > device list.  (That won't make it attach or work, but it probably leads
> > to a nicer message saying that it didn't attach.)
> 
> I'd try the rtwn driver, it's supposed to handle this chip or at least
> something similar ( not sure what the difference between 8188CE and
> 8188EE is ). May just need an extra PCI ID.
> 
> NAME
>  rtwn -- Realtek RTL8188CE/RTL8192CE PCIe IEEE 802.11b/g/n wireless net-
>  work device
> 
> SYNOPSIS
>  rtwn* at pci? dev ? function ?
> 
> DESCRIPTION
>  The rtwn driver supports PCIe wireless network devices based on the Real-
>  tek RTL8188CE and RTL8192CE chipset.
> 
> 
> > Then, if you can find out how this chip works from some other OS, or
> > From actually getting a programming guide from the manufacturer, you
> > can add it as a match in a driver that might be able to handle it.
> > It might be a similar chip to one netbsd supports, but that also has
> > a USB interface, and in your case the USB interface isn't being used.
> 
> If it was using USB it would probably appear as an ehci or something
> with a USB device behind it.
> 
> have fun
> Michael
> 


-- 
Steve Blinkhorn 


This email is for the addressee only.   If you are not the addressee
you should immediately delete this email from your system(s) and
inform us.   It may contain information that is confidential or
otherwise privileged, and should not be copied or redistributed to
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S F Blinkhorn MA PhD CPsychol FBPsS, Managing Director,
Psychometric Research & Development Ltd.
PO Box 1143, St Albans, Herts, AL1 9UT, UK
Registered in England No. 1909571
Registered Office: 45 Grosvenor Rd., St Albans, Herts, AL1 3AW
Phone: +44 (0)1727 841455
http://www.prd.co.uk

Re: HP 620 - first install and where is my wireless?

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Robert,

Robert Swindells wrote:

I think Christos has imported the latest OpenBSD code for the PCI driver.

You might want to try a -current kernel from the autobuild cluster.


I did get the latest kernel and booted it. The PCI device is still 
unconfigured.


Riccardo

Re: A Web Interface for Apropos: http://man-k.org

[Timo Buhrmester]

> I would appreciate any feedback that you might have to improve it :)
What I find mildly annoying is that when it says "Did you mean xyz?",
it really means "I'm going to pretend you meant xyz and hey, I'll even
update the search box to what you most certainly meant".

I for one prefer to see no results when searching for something that
doesn't exist, over getting results for something that I might have
meant, but probably haven't.  (For example, I searched for sndiod
(OpenBSD's sound I/O daemon) just to see whether OpenBSD man pages are
there yet; it assumed I meant "rndio" and gave me rnd(4)).

Of course, I do NOT mind the system suggesting the possible correction
for me to accept or ignore; i.e. "Did you mean xyz?" could be a link.

Other than that, good work!

Re: Realtek RTL8188EUS driver (urtwn)

[Michael]

Hello,

On Wed, 27 Apr 2016 07:51:06 -0400
Greg Troxel  wrote:

> st...@prd.co.uk (Steve Blinkhorn) writes:
> 
> > vendor 0x10ec product 0x8179 (miscellaneous network, revision 0x01) at
> > pci3 dev 0 function 0 not configured
> >
> > refers to pci3, whereas from the driver name I would have thought it
> > should appear as a usb device.

That's a PCI device, the urtwn driver is for USB devices.

> It may be that the next step is to add this vendor/product to the PCI
> device list.  (That won't make it attach or work, but it probably leads
> to a nicer message saying that it didn't attach.)

I'd try the rtwn driver, it's supposed to handle this chip or at least
something similar ( not sure what the difference between 8188CE and
8188EE is ). May just need an extra PCI ID.

NAME
 rtwn -- Realtek RTL8188CE/RTL8192CE PCIe IEEE 802.11b/g/n wireless net-
 work device

SYNOPSIS
 rtwn* at pci? dev ? function ?

DESCRIPTION
 The rtwn driver supports PCIe wireless network devices based on the Real-
 tek RTL8188CE and RTL8192CE chipset.


> Then, if you can find out how this chip works from some other OS, or
> From actually getting a programming guide from the manufacturer, you
> can add it as a match in a driver that might be able to handle it.
> It might be a similar chip to one netbsd supports, but that also has
> a USB interface, and in your case the USB interface isn't being used.

If it was using USB it would probably appear as an ehci or something
with a USB device behind it.

have fun
Michael

Re: Realtek RTL8188EUS driver (urtwn)

[Greg Troxel]

st...@prd.co.uk (Steve Blinkhorn) writes:

> vendor 0x10ec product 0x8179 (miscellaneous network, revision 0x01) at
> pci3 dev 0 function 0 not configured
>
> refers to pci3, whereas from the driver name I would have thought it
> should appear as a usb device.

That probe message is not from a particular driver.  The PCI attach code
is iterating over each PCI bus and if the vendor/product codes match
attaching the device to a driver.   This is just printing out that for
this codepoint, no driver matched.

If I were trying to figure this out, I would first understand a bit more
clearly about PCI vs USB namespaces (the vendor/product codes).  I think
they are actually logically different, except that I wouldn't be
surprised if the vendor codes are the same because of how allocating
them takes some sort of industry association.  Then within a vendor
code, I suspect product codes might or might not line up between PCI and
USB but I wouldn't be surprised if the internal codepoint assignment
process assigned codes to chips across both.  Certainly NetBSD having
separate files indicates that the people who set that up think it's
different, or did, or that they had some other reason.

It may be that the next step is to add this vendor/product to the PCI
device list.  (That won't make it attach or work, but it probably leads
to a nicer message saying that it didn't attach.)

Then, if you can find out how this chip works from some other OS, or
From actually getting a programming guide from the manufacturer, you can
add it as a match in a driver that might be able to handle it.  It might
be a similar chip to one netbsd supports, but that also has a USB
interface, and in your case the USB interface isn't being used.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: HP 620 - first install and where is my wireless?

[Christos Zoulas]

On Apr 27, 11:08am, riccardo.mott...@libero.it (Riccardo Mottola) wrote:
-- Subject: Re: HP 620 - first install and where is my wireless?

| Hi Christos
| 
| thhansk to you and all others.
| 
| Christos Zoulas wrote:
| 
| > No, this is bluetooth, the below one  is the network:
| 
| indeed, most probably there is a single button that turns on both WLAN 
| and BlueTooth.
| 
| >> vendor 0x1814 product 0x3090 (miscellaneous network) at pci2 dev 0
| >> function 0 not configured
| > We have the entry in pcidevs:
| >
| > pcidevs:product RALINK  RT3090  0x3090  RT3090 802.11b/g/n
| >
| > But no driver; FreeBSD has one and OpenBSD has it too in if_ral_pci.c
| > It should not be hard to copy the OpenBSD code to our if_ral_pcic to
| > make it work.
| >
| 
| I have never written a line of Kernel code, however it would be nice to 
| get this running. A laptop without WiFi is not so useful nowadays!
| 
| Perhaps I can work with Robert on this. Could be fun and useful.

You are in luck, Jeff Rizzon has already started work on it, and I found
a machine at home with if_ral.c (I hope).

christos

Re: Realtek RTL8188EUS driver (urtwn)

[Felix Deichmann]

2016-04-27 11:56 GMT+02:00 Steve Blinkhorn :
> refers to pci3, whereas from the driver name I would have thought it
> should appear as a usb device.

Strange, is this a PCI Express Mini Card which has both PCIe and USB
on the same connector? Could explain why the device is USB, but (also)
seen on PCI at least.

Felix

Re: HP 620 - first install and where is my wireless?

[Robert Swindells]

Riccardo Mottola wrote:
>Robert Swindells wrote:
>> An external dongle or built in to the laptop ?
>
>It is built-in into the laptop. Most probably the button activates both 
>WLAN and BT. I am interested in WLAN first.
>
>> Does the Ralink wifi device show up if you run usbdevs(8) ?
>>
>> There are a number of newer Ralink devices that are not supported by
>> the run(4) driver in 7.0 and -current, I have patches against -current
>> to add support for a few more.
>
>It is not USB at all, sorry for that. Christos got the line:
>
>vendor 0x1814 product 0x3090 (miscellaneous network) at pci2 dev 0 
>function 0 not configured
>
>Do your patches contemplate this chip perhaps?

Not really, they are just for the USB version.

>Else, if you have patience we can try working together on importing the 
>OpenBSD driver. I don't have any Kernel experience, however I do know C 
>and this laptop is fast enough that doing some kernel compiling.
>Apparently the RT3090 is used in several laptops from HP and Lenovo, so 
>supporting it could make more people happy.

I think Christos has imported the latest OpenBSD code for the PCI driver.

You might want to try a -current kernel from the autobuild cluster.

Robert Swindells

Re: HP 620 - first install and where is my wireless?

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Christos

thhansk to you and all others.

Christos Zoulas wrote:


No, this is bluetooth, the below one  is the network:


indeed, most probably there is a single button that turns on both WLAN 
and BlueTooth.



vendor 0x1814 product 0x3090 (miscellaneous network) at pci2 dev 0
function 0 not configured

We have the entry in pcidevs:

pcidevs:product RALINK  RT3090  0x3090  RT3090 802.11b/g/n

But no driver; FreeBSD has one and OpenBSD has it too in if_ral_pci.c
It should not be hard to copy the OpenBSD code to our if_ral_pcic to
make it work.



I have never written a line of Kernel code, however it would be nice to 
get this running. A laptop without WiFi is not so useful nowadays!


Perhaps I can work with Robert on this. Could be fun and useful.

Riccardo

Re: HP 620 - first install and where is my wireless?

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Robert,

Robert Swindells wrote:

An external dongle or built in to the laptop ?


It is built-in into the laptop. Most probably the button activates both 
WLAN and BT. I am interested in WLAN first.



Does the Ralink wifi device show up if you run usbdevs(8) ?

There are a number of newer Ralink devices that are not supported by
the run(4) driver in 7.0 and -current, I have patches against -current
to add support for a few more.


It is not USB at all, sorry for that. Christos got the line:

vendor 0x1814 product 0x3090 (miscellaneous network) at pci2 dev 0 
function 0 not configured


Do your patches contemplate this chip perhaps?

Else, if you have patience we can try working together on importing the 
OpenBSD driver. I don't have any Kernel experience, however I do know C 
and this laptop is fast enough that doing some kernel compiling.
Apparently the RT3090 is used in several laptops from HP and Lenovo, so 
supporting it could make more people happy.


Riccardo