Re: Native sound system

[Sid]

> Thursday, April 05, 2018 at 2:24 AM, "Martin Husemann"
> libosssaudio.so is only a (tiny) compat shim on NetBSD (like 1000 lines of
> C code).
> 
> Adding newer OSS versions to that is more work, not less ;-)
> 
> But it certainly should be considered. We are currently at 0x030001.

Does anyone know how sndio from OpenBSD stacks up against 4Front's OSS v4? 
sndio is lightweight as well. I thought OSS version 4 was new as of last year, 
but it looks like it's been around longer. It also requires the proprietary 
drivers for some hardware 
(http://www.4front-tech.com/developer/sources/stable/bsd/oss-v4.2-build2017-src-bsd.txt),
 but being under a BSD license, open source drivers can be created, which means 
more work.

Both OSS and sndio are capable of interfacing hardware drivers or functioning 
as an API. Now I think we should look at the possibility of sndio for 
interfacing hardware, rather than OSS. I believe sndio can operate regular 
audio as well as MIDI.

> From Nathanial Sloss;
> NetBSD-8 features and in-kernel audio mixer with a sun audio/OSS compatible 
audio interface.

> Each instance of an open audio device provides a separate audio device to 
> each 
> audio application/audio server with independent software volume for each 
> channel.

> This makes it possible to run portaudio, SDL audio apps, pulseaudio, esd, 
> nas, 
> sun audio applications and OSS v4 applications, etc side by side.

> As for OSSv4 see:
> http://gnats.netbsd.org/cgi-bin/query-pr-single.pl?number=46611

> I imported the necessary ioctls into libossaudio for compatibility with oss 
> v4 
> in 2014.  The exported oss version number is still lower than v4 as the mixer 
> control api is yet to be added.

So this is why only 1 device can play audio at once for most applications, 
while the hardware can already support multiple audio inputs.

> It makes it possible to use applications in package source that require oss 
> v4 
> support and these addition of an oss v4 compatible api has been essential for 
> many packages for quite some time.

I don't know if OSS version 4 from 2017 is backwards compatible with other 
versions or forks of OSS. Perhaps it is.

> As for midi, These devices should be supported by midi(4).  There are 
> usb/spkr(4) attachments as well as midi ports found on older sound cards.

> Additionally there is also the pseudo audio device pad(4) which allows audio 
> to be captured to file or used in conjuction with the bluetooth a2dp 
> streaming 
> daemon.

MIDI should already work as long as it has an API layer? (sndio works as such, 
not sure if the latest OSS does too)


Thanks to everyone who informed about MIDI's use in instruments and software. 
Sorry for repeating a another message, it delayed, then finally all of them 
went through (subscribing to the list should have fixed that).

Re: Native sound system

[Nathanial Sloss]

Hi,

NetBSD-8 features and in-kernel audio mixer with a sun audio/OSS compatible 
audio interface.

Each instance of an open audio device provides a seperate audio device to each 
audio application/audio server with independent software volume for each 
channel.

This makes it possible to run portaudio, SDL audio apps, pulseaudio, esd, nas, 
sun audio applications and OSS v4 applications, etc side by side.

As for OSSv4 see:
http://gnats.netbsd.org/cgi-bin/query-pr-single.pl?number=46611

I imported the necessary ioctls into libossaudio for compatibility with oss v4 
in 2014.  The exported oss version number is still lower than v4 as the mixer 
control api is yet to be added.

It makes it possible to use applications in package source that require oss v4 
support and these addition of an oss v4 compatible api has been essential for 
many packages for quite some time.

As for midi, These devices should be supported by midi(4).  There are 
usb/spkr(4) attachments as well as midi ports found on older sound cards.

Additionally there is also the pseudo audio device pad(4) which allows audio 
to be captured to file or used in conjuction with the bluetooth a2dp streaming 
daemon.

I hope this helps,

Best regards,

Nat

Re: Native sound system

[Niels Dettenbach (Syndicat IT & Internet)]

Am 5. April 2018 03:40:12 MESZ schrieb Sid :
>> Wednesday, April 04, 2018 at 6:32 AM; "Benny Siegert"
>
/, from OpenBSD, which can
>> handle MIDI frontends to a sound server (or directly to the
>hardware).
>>
>> Are people still using MIDI?
>

The amount of MIDI capable devices as the number of MIDI users is growing since 
years - mainly in the modern music scenes. Most music studios and more and more 
musicians today working with MIDI in any way.

The MIDI Ass. byself is still working on extensions and new versions of MIDI 
(i.e. more Controllers, new link media etc.), but the old MIDI standard / 
protocol design still is robust and widely used without any further changes 
over decades. Take a look into a modern music shop and count the amount of MIDI 
capable devices today (means DIN MIDI or USB-MIDI).

I think most MIDI application under NetBSD would be Desktop and headless 
audio/MIDI appliances (i.e. MIDI "routers" and similiar) if NetBSD would 
"provide" a reliable "MIDI stack" in any way.

In my own (commercial) music project studio MIDI is a core part for any musical 
data (beside audio) too.


just my two cents,

niels.
-- 
Niels Dettenbach
Syndicat IT & Internet
http://www.Syndicat.com

Re: Native sound system

[Niels Dettenbach]

Am Donnerstag, 5. April 2018, 02:37:38 CEST schrieb Aaron B.:
> But if you mean interfacing with hardware synthesizers made before 1999
> or so - then MIDI is the only way to go. There is still quite a bit of
> such equipment still in use that will be used until it dies.
> 
> Even modern USB based keyboards, knob boxes, and other such audio
> controllers often emulate a USB to MIDI interface to interact with
> software. This spares the expense of writing custom drivers.
USB-MIDI "is" part of the MIDI standard.

Nearly any new modern electronic instrument today is equipped with MIDI - as 
DIN MIDI oder USB-MIDI (or both). I.e. take a look into i.e. any larger music 
equipment shop today. And MIDI is not only used for instruments anymore - it 
is a widely used standard in quasi any modern / professional studio (in soft 
and hardware) for M applications and much morre.

The amount of MIDI capable devices worldwide ist still strongly growing. 
There was/is a kind of "renaissance of MIDI" which led the MIDI Association 
to work on a extended version of MIDI today.
https://www.midi.org/

so - for developers "outside" the music industry and scene - MIDI is far from 
"obsolete" or "small niche..." today...ß)



this jfyi.

many thanks,
best regards,


niels.


-- 
 ---
 Niels Dettenbach
 Syndicat IT & Internet
 http://www.syndicat.com
 PGP: https://syndicat.com/pub_key.asc
 ---
 

Re: Native sound system

[Martin Husemann]

On Thu, Apr 05, 2018 at 03:40:12AM +0200, Sid wrote:
> NetBSD current should jump to or try OSS version 4, to avoid redoing
> a lot of work.

libosssaudio.so is only a (tiny) compat shim on NetBSD (like 1000 lines of
C code).

Adding newer OSS versions to that is more work, not less ;-)

But it certainly should be considered. We are currently at 0x030001.

Martin

Re: Native sound system

[Sid]

> Wednesday, April 04, 2018 at 6:32 AM; "Benny Siegert"

> Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 6:28 AM Sid wrote:
> > OSS version 4 from http://developer.opensound.com/ is supposed to allow
> multiple sound applications to play simultaneously, and it has improvements
> over previous and forked versions. For the most part, it has a BSD license.
>
> NetBSD has an in-kernel audio mixer that allows multiple audio sources to
> play at the same time. I think it might only be in 8-BETA or -current
> though.0

NetBSD current should jump to or try OSS version 4, to avoid redoing a lot of 
work.

> > There is also sndio, http://www.sndio.org/, from OpenBSD, which can
> handle MIDI frontends to a sound server (or directly to the hardware).
>
> Are people still using MIDI?

MIDI is still used for plugging in musical instrument output to the computer. 
Otherwise JACK, which is powerful but has many criticisms, is used. There is 
also limiting MIDI input to usb devices, which is inconvenient and not suitable.

> > Also, across all BSD's, there is not a simple drop-in BSD replacement of
> libcanberra, to act as an API from certain applications to OSS or sndio.
>
> But there is libcanberra itself? Also libao has a native "sunaudio" driver
> IIRC.

libcanberra seems to aim to complicate itself, and it mixes in bloated 
graphical gtk2 and gtk3 dependencies, which have nothing to do with sound 
output. Every attempt to un-complicate it, results in further tangling of it by 
developers or maintainers, at least when trying to sort through its makefile 
for another operating system. Is libao, as an API, capable of being part of a 
substitute?

There are many applications that output to gstreamer or libcanberra, that 
should have a simpler solution to go straight to OSS.

Re: Native sound system

[Sid]

> Wednesday, April 04, 2018 at 6:32 AM; "Benny Siegert"

> Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 6:28 AM Sid wrote:
> > OSS version 4 from http://developer.opensound.com/ is supposed to allow
> multiple sound applications to play simultaneously, and it has improvements
> over previous and forked versions. For the most part, it has a BSD license.
> 
> NetBSD has an in-kernel audio mixer that allows multiple audio sources to
> play at the same time. I think it might only be in 8-BETA or -current
> though.0

NetBSD current should jump to or try OSS version 4, to avoid redoing a lot of 
work.

> > There is also sndio, http://www.sndio.org/, from OpenBSD, which can
> handle MIDI frontends to a sound server (or directly to the hardware).
> 
> Are people still using MIDI?

MIDI is still used for plugging in musical instrument output to the computer. 
Otherwise JACK, which is powerful but has many criticisms, is used. There is 
also limiting MIDI input to usb devices, which is inconvenient and not suitable.

> > Also, across all BSD's, there is not a simple drop-in BSD replacement of
> libcanberra, to act as an API from certain applications to OSS or sndio.
> 
> But there is libcanberra itself? Also libao has a native "sunaudio" driver
> IIRC.

libcanberra seems to aim to complicate itself, and it mixes in bloated 
graphical gtk2 and gtk3 dependencies, which have nothing to do with sound 
output. Every attempt to un-complicate it, results in further tangling of it by 
developers or maintainers, at least when trying to sort through its makefile 
for another operating system. Is libao, as an API, capable of being part of a 
substitute?

There are many applications that output to gstreamer or libcanberra, that 
should have a simpler solution to go straight to OSS.

Re: Native sound system

[Sid]

> Wednesday, April 04, 2018 at 6:32 AM; "Benny Siegert"

> Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 6:28 AM Sid wrote:
> > OSS version 4 from http://developer.opensound.com/ is supposed to allow
> multiple sound applications to play simultaneously, and it has improvements
> over previous and forked versions. For the most part, it has a BSD license.
>
> NetBSD has an in-kernel audio mixer that allows multiple audio sources to
> play at the same time. I think it might only be in 8-BETA or -current
> though.0

NetBSD current should jump to or try OSS version 4, to avoid redoing a lot of 
work.

> > There is also sndio, http://www.sndio.org/, from OpenBSD, which can
> handle MIDI frontends to a sound server (or directly to the hardware).
>
> Are people still using MIDI?

MIDI is still used for plugging in musical instrument output to the computer. 
Otherwise JACK, which is powerful but has many criticisms, is used. There is 
also limiting MIDI input to usb devices, which is inconvenient and not suitable.

> > Also, across all BSD's, there is not a simple drop-in BSD replacement of
> libcanberra, to act as an API from certain applications to OSS or sndio.
>
> But there is libcanberra itself? Also libao has a native "sunaudio" driver
> IIRC.

libcanberra seems to aim to complicate itself, and it mixes in bloated 
graphical gtk2 and gtk3 dependencies, which have nothing to do with sound 
output. Every attempt to un-complicate it, results in further tangling of it by 
developers or maintainers, at least when trying to sort through its makefile 
for another operating system. Is libao, as an API, capable of being part of a 
substitute?

There are many applications that output to gstreamer or libcanberra, that 
should have a simpler solution to go straight to OSS.

Re: Native sound system

[Aaron B.]

On Wed, 04 Apr 2018 11:32:16 +
Benny Siegert  wrote:

> Are people still using MIDI?

Depends.

If you are talking about rendering music for games, websites, etc via
MIDI files, I would expect that to be rare these days.

But if you mean interfacing with hardware synthesizers made before 1999
or so - then MIDI is the only way to go. There is still quite a bit of
such equipment still in use that will be used until it dies.

Even modern USB based keyboards, knob boxes, and other such audio
controllers often emulate a USB to MIDI interface to interact with
software. This spares the expense of writing custom drivers.

-- 
Aaron B. 

Re: Native sound system

[Cág]

Benny Siegert wrote:

> NetBSD has an in-kernel audio mixer that allows multiple audio sources to
> play at the same time. I think it might only be in 8-BETA or -current
> though.0

It is: http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?audio++NetBSD-current

What is the history of audio in NetBSD? Is it OSS? Uses OSS API?

--
caóc

Re: Native sound system

[Benny Siegert]

On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 6:28 AM Sid  wrote:
> OSS version 4 from http://developer.opensound.com/ is supposed to allow
multiple sound applications to play simultaneously, and it has improvements
over previous and forked versions. For the most part, it has a BSD license.

NetBSD has an in-kernel audio mixer that allows multiple audio sources to
play at the same time. I think it might only be in 8-BETA or -current
though.0

> There is also sndio, http://www.sndio.org/, from OpenBSD, which can
handle MIDI frontends to a sound server (or directly to the hardware).

Are people still using MIDI?

> It would be nice to see the newest version of OSS put into NetBSD, with
layers of sndio to bridge MIDI and API's to OSSv4.

See above.

> Also, across all BSD's, there is not a simple drop-in BSD replacement of
libcanberra, to act as an API from certain applications to OSS or sndio.

But there is libcanberra itself? Also libao has a native "sunaudio" driver
IIRC.

--
Benny

Native sound system

[Sid]

OSS version 4 from http://developer.opensound.com/ is supposed to allow 
multiple sound applications to play simultaneously, and it has improvements 
over previous and forked versions. For the most part, it has a BSD license.

There is also sndio, http://www.sndio.org/, from OpenBSD, which can handle MIDI 
frontends to a sound server (or directly to the hardware).

It would be nice to see the newest version of OSS put into NetBSD, with layers 
of sndio to bridge MIDI and API's to OSSv4.

Also, across all BSD's, there is not a simple drop-in BSD replacement of 
libcanberra, to act as an API from certain applications to OSS or sndio.

Thank you