Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:05:57 +0100 Simon Arlott wrote:
What about something like this? I'm not sure if the addition to
sym_init is desirable... I also had to prefix _ to the name for
now otherwise it conflicts badly with the current symbols. It
probably should stop depends on _BROKEN etc. too.
Hi Simon,
(sorry for the delay)
I like this patch very much... I just can't get it to build (on
2.6.23-rc4).
i got a patch from simon a while back, and it failed with
shift/reduce conflicts. is that what you're seeing?
while (1) {
printf(%*s%s , indent - 1, , menu-prompt-text);
+ switch (sym-maturity) {
+ case M_EXPERIMENTAL:
+ printf((EXPERIMENTAL) );
+ break;
+ case M_DEPRECATED:
+ printf((DEPRECATED) );
+ break;
+ case M_OBSOLETE:
+ printf((OBSOLETE) );
+ break;
+ case M_BROKEN:
+ printf((BROKEN) );
+ break;
+ default:
+ break;
+ }
if (sym-name)
printf((%s) , sym-name);
type = sym_get_type(sym);
for now, simon, why not just reduce this to supporting only DEPRECATED
and OBSOLETE so that it can be at least tested as proof of concept?
rday
--
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
http://crashcourse.ca
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Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Sat, 1 Sep 2007, Sam Ravnborg wrote:
On Sat, Sep 01, 2007 at 06:44:06AM -0400, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
while (1) {
printf(%*s%s , indent - 1, , menu-prompt-text);
+ switch (sym-maturity) {
+ case M_EXPERIMENTAL:
+ printf((EXPERIMENTAL) );
+ break;
+ case M_DEPRECATED:
+ printf((DEPRECATED) );
+ break;
+ case M_OBSOLETE:
+ printf((OBSOLETE) );
+ break;
+ case M_BROKEN:
+ printf((BROKEN) );
+ break;
+ default:
+ break;
+ }
if (sym-name)
printf((%s) , sym-name);
type = sym_get_type(sym);
for now, simon, why not just reduce this to supporting only DEPRECATED
and OBSOLETE so that it can be at least tested as proof of concept?
The principle with letting a dependency add text to the promts are good.
But the implementation done by Simon with a language extension is not good.
A simple and better approach would be to use the newly added option
support for this and let the backend generate the promtps.
I have not yet tried to cook up a patch for it, but it should be
quite generaic and doable.
config EXPERIMENTAL
option appendprompt= (EXPERIMENTAL)
config DEPRECATED
option appendprompt= (DEPRECATED)
but this is deviating from the basic principle that these things are
not regular Kconfig config settings -- they are a new beast
entirely, and need a new infrastructure to support them.
put another way, they are not a normal kernel feature to be selected
or deselected. they are, rather, *attributes* that can be *applied*
to kernel features, in the same way as is done with bool or
string. making these things regular config directives defeats the
whole purpose.
rday
--
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
http://crashcourse.ca
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Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:05:57 +0100 Simon Arlott wrote:
On 19/07/07 17:19, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote:
I think that Stefan means a patch to the kconfig source code,
not the the Kconfig files. Good luck. I'd still like to see it.
yes, i understand what he wanted now. as a first step (that
theoretically shouldn't change any behaviour), i'd patch the Kconfig
structure to add a new attribute (maturity) which would be allowed
to be set to *exactly one* of a pre-defined set of values (say,
OBSOLETE, DEPRECATED, EXPERIMENTAL, and STILLBLEEDING). and that's
it, nothing more.
don't try to do anything with any of that just yet, just add the
infrastructure to support the (optional) association of a maturity
level with a config option. that's step one.
What about something like this? I'm not sure if the addition to sym_init
is desirable... I also had to prefix _ to the name for now otherwise it
conflicts badly with the current symbols. It probably should stop
depends on _BROKEN etc. too.
Hi Simon,
(sorry for the delay)
I like this patch very much... I just can't get it to build (on
2.6.23-rc4).
Thanks.
---
diff --git a/init/Kconfig b/init/Kconfig
diff --git a/net/Kconfig b/net/Kconfig
index cdba08c..5e2f4db 100644
--- a/net/Kconfig
+++ b/net/Kconfig
@@ -6,6 +6,7 @@ menu Networking
config NET
bool Networking support
+ maturity _BROKEN
---help---
Unless you really know what you are doing, you should say Y here.
The reason is that some programs need kernel networking support even
diff --git a/net/ipv6/addrconf.c b/net/ipv6/addrconf.c
diff --git a/scripts/kconfig/Makefile b/scripts/kconfig/Makefile
index fb2bb30..1dea08e 100644
--- a/scripts/kconfig/Makefile
+++ b/scripts/kconfig/Makefile
@@ -256,7 +256,7 @@ $(obj)/lkc_defs.h: $(src)/lkc_proto.h
# The following requires flex/bison/gperf
# By default we use the _shipped versions, uncomment the following line if
# you are modifying the flex/bison src.
-# LKC_GENPARSER := 1
+LKC_GENPARSER := 1
ifdef LKC_GENPARSER
diff --git a/scripts/kconfig/conf.c b/scripts/kconfig/conf.c
index 1199baf..cc9be0e 100644
--- a/scripts/kconfig/conf.c
+++ b/scripts/kconfig/conf.c
@@ -211,6 +211,22 @@ static int conf_sym(struct menu *menu)
while (1) {
printf(%*s%s , indent - 1, , menu-prompt-text);
+ switch (sym-maturity) {
+ case M_EXPERIMENTAL:
+ printf((EXPERIMENTAL) );
+ break;
+ case M_DEPRECATED:
+ printf((DEPRECATED) );
+ break;
+ case M_OBSOLETE:
+ printf((OBSOLETE) );
+ break;
+ case M_BROKEN:
+ printf((BROKEN) );
+ break;
+ default:
+ break;
+ }
if (sym-name)
printf((%s) , sym-name);
type = sym_get_type(sym);
diff --git a/scripts/kconfig/expr.h b/scripts/kconfig/expr.h
index 6084525..a22b6c1 100644
--- a/scripts/kconfig/expr.h
+++ b/scripts/kconfig/expr.h
@@ -60,7 +60,11 @@ struct symbol_value {
};
enum symbol_type {
- S_UNKNOWN, S_BOOLEAN, S_TRISTATE, S_INT, S_HEX, S_STRING, S_OTHER
+ S_UNKNOWN, S_BOOLEAN, S_TRISTATE, S_INT, S_HEX, S_STRING, S_MATURITY,
S_OTHER
+};
+
+enum maturity_level {
+ M_NONE, M_EXPERIMENTAL, M_DEPRECATED, M_OBSOLETE, M_BROKEN
};
enum {
@@ -72,6 +76,7 @@ struct symbol {
struct symbol *next;
char *name;
char *help;
+ enum maturity_level maturity;
enum symbol_type type;
struct symbol_value curr;
struct symbol_value def[4];
diff --git a/scripts/kconfig/lex.zconf.c_shipped
b/scripts/kconfig/lex.zconf.c_shipped
diff --git a/scripts/kconfig/lkc.h b/scripts/kconfig/lkc.h
index 8a07ee4..9add1cd 100644
--- a/scripts/kconfig/lkc.h
+++ b/scripts/kconfig/lkc.h
@@ -79,6 +79,7 @@ void menu_end_menu(void);
void menu_add_entry(struct symbol *sym);
void menu_end_entry(void);
void menu_add_dep(struct expr *dep);
+void menu_set_maturity(struct symbol *sym);
struct property *menu_add_prop(enum prop_type type, char *prompt,
struct expr *expr, struct expr *dep);
struct property *menu_add_prompt(enum prop_type type, char *prompt,
struct expr *dep);
void menu_add_expr(enum prop_type type, struct expr *expr, struct expr
*dep);
diff --git a/scripts/kconfig/mconf.c b/scripts/kconfig/mconf.c
index d0e4fa5..eaf199b 100644
--- a/scripts/kconfig/mconf.c
+++ b/scripts/kconfig/mconf.c
@@ -238,6 +238,7 @@ search_help[] = N_(
Result:\n
-\n
Symbol: FOO [=m]\n
+ Maturity: FOO\n
Prompt: Foo bus is used to drive the bar HW\n
Defined at drivers/pci/Kconfig:47\n
Depends on:
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:05:57 +0100 Simon Arlott wrote: On 19/07/07 17:19, Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote: I think that Stefan means a patch to the kconfig source code, not the the Kconfig files. Good luck. I'd still like to see it. yes, i understand what he wanted now. as a first step (that theoretically shouldn't change any behaviour), i'd patch the Kconfig structure to add a new attribute (maturity) which would be allowed to be set to *exactly one* of a pre-defined set of values (say, OBSOLETE, DEPRECATED, EXPERIMENTAL, and STILLBLEEDING). and that's it, nothing more. don't try to do anything with any of that just yet, just add the infrastructure to support the (optional) association of a maturity level with a config option. that's step one. What about something like this? I'm not sure if the addition to sym_init is desirable... I also had to prefix _ to the name for now otherwise it conflicts badly with the current symbols. It probably should stop depends on _BROKEN etc. too. i'm sure i'm going to get shouted down here, but i really disagree with BROKEN being considered a maturity level. IMHO, things like EXPERIMENTAL, DEPRECATED and OBSOLETE represent maturity levels, for what i think are obvious reasons. something like BROKEN, though, has *nothing* to do with maturity. a feature can be any of those maturity levels, and simultaneously be BROKEN. i consider BROKEN to be what i call a status, and different status levels might be the default of normal, or KIND_OF_FLAKY or TOTALLY_BORKED -- that's where BROKEN would fit in. *please* don't start mixing these different attributes. it's just going to make an irreversible mess of things. leave BROKEN out of this for the time being. rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://crashcourse.ca - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:05:57 +0100 Simon Arlott wrote: On 19/07/07 17:19, Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote: I think that Stefan means a patch to the kconfig source code, not the the Kconfig files. Good luck. I'd still like to see it. yes, i understand what he wanted now. as a first step (that theoretically shouldn't change any behaviour), i'd patch the Kconfig structure to add a new attribute (maturity) which would be allowed to be set to *exactly one* of a pre-defined set of values (say, OBSOLETE, DEPRECATED, EXPERIMENTAL, and STILLBLEEDING). and that's it, nothing more. don't try to do anything with any of that just yet, just add the infrastructure to support the (optional) association of a maturity level with a config option. that's step one. What about something like this? I'm not sure if the addition to sym_init is desirable... I also had to prefix _ to the name for now otherwise it conflicts badly with the current symbols. It probably should stop depends on _BROKEN etc. too. i'm sure i'm going to get shouted down here, but i really disagree with BROKEN being considered a maturity level. IMHO, things like EXPERIMENTAL, DEPRECATED and OBSOLETE represent maturity levels, for what i think are obvious reasons. something like BROKEN, though, has *nothing* to do with maturity. a feature can be any of those maturity levels, and simultaneously be BROKEN. i consider BROKEN to be what i call a status, and different status levels might be the default of normal, or KIND_OF_FLAKY or TOTALLY_BORKED -- that's where BROKEN would fit in. BROKEN is definitely a maturity level. A more accurate description would be BITROTTING perhaps. The code in question has passed through bleeding - experimental - stable, and come out the other side. In contrast, OBSOLETE and DEPRECATED reflect high-level status not code quality/maturity. Jeff - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Aug 31 2007 14:06, Jeff Garzik wrote: something like BROKEN, though, has *nothing* to do with maturity. a feature can be any of those maturity levels, and simultaneously be BROKEN. i consider BROKEN to be what i call a status, and different status levels might be the default of normal, or KIND_OF_FLAKY or TOTALLY_BORKED -- that's where BROKEN would fit in. BROKEN is definitely a maturity level. A more accurate description would be BITROTTING perhaps. The code in question has passed through bleeding - experimental - stable, and come out the other side. Software is quite unlike the art of medicine. There, you would go from 'stable' to 'broken', then someone 'experiments' with you, and if it's a bad day, you bleed out. :) Jan -- - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Jeff Garzik wrote: Robert P. J. Day wrote: i'm sure i'm going to get shouted down here, but i really disagree with BROKEN being considered a maturity level. IMHO, things like EXPERIMENTAL, DEPRECATED and OBSOLETE represent maturity levels, for what i think are obvious reasons. something like BROKEN, though, has *nothing* to do with maturity. a feature can be any of those maturity levels, and simultaneously be BROKEN. i consider BROKEN to be what i call a status, and different status levels might be the default of normal, or KIND_OF_FLAKY or TOTALLY_BORKED -- that's where BROKEN would fit in. BROKEN is definitely a maturity level. no. it's not. end of discussion. you're wrong. the concept of maturity level reflects where in the life cycle some feature is. it will typically start as bleeding edge or experimental or something like that, eventually stabilize to be normal (which would be the obvious default), after which, when its value starts to run out and it begins showing its age, it becomes deprecated and eventually obsolete it's a natural and obvious progression. on the other hand, a feature can be broken at *any* point in that life cycle -- that's why it is absolutely *not* a maturity level. please don't fight with me on this, jeff. you're simply wrong. In contrast, OBSOLETE and DEPRECATED reflect high-level status not code quality/maturity. you have this so backwards, i can't begin to think how to explain it to you. rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://crashcourse.ca - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote: What I like about the patch is that it associates some kconfig symbol with prompt strings, so that we don't have to edit (EXPERIMENTAL) all the darn time (e.g.). I'd be quite happy with calling it status rather than maturity, and with being able to use multiple of the status tags at one time, such as config FOO depends on BAR status OBSOLETE BROKEN g ... i already made my point in my earlier post. i'd really, really like it if *this* attribute remained as maturity. an entirely *separate* attribute could be defined as a feature status, which would be entirely orthogonal to maturity level, so that the above would be written as maturity OBSOLETE status BROKEN there's a reason for this -- any feature should have exactly *one* value for any attribute. that is, in terms of maturity, a feature could be EXPERIMENTAL *or* DEPRECATED *or* OBSOLETE. it ***can't*** be more than one, as in both DEPRECATED *and* OBSOLETE. to allow that flexibility is to descend into absurdity. rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://crashcourse.ca - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote: What I like about the patch is that it associates some kconfig symbol with prompt strings, so that we don't have to edit (EXPERIMENTAL) all the darn time (e.g.). I'd be quite happy with calling it status rather than maturity, and with being able to use multiple of the status tags at one time, such as config FOO depends on BAR status OBSOLETE BROKEN g ... i already made my point in my earlier post. i'd really, really like it if *this* attribute remained as maturity. an entirely *separate* attribute could be defined as a feature status, which would be entirely orthogonal to maturity level, so that the above would be written as maturity OBSOLETE status BROKEN there's a reason for this -- any feature should have exactly *one* value for any attribute. that is, in terms of maturity, a feature could be EXPERIMENTAL *or* DEPRECATED *or* OBSOLETE. it ***can't*** be more than one, as in both DEPRECATED *and* OBSOLETE. to allow that flexibility is to descend into absurdity. If Simon (or anyone else) continues to work on it, I'll leave this decision up to them... --- ~Randy *** Remember to use Documentation/SubmitChecklist when testing your code *** - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Jeff Garzik wrote: Robert P. J. Day wrote: i'm sure i'm going to get shouted down here, but i really disagree with BROKEN being considered a maturity level. IMHO, things like EXPERIMENTAL, DEPRECATED and OBSOLETE represent maturity levels, for what i think are obvious reasons. something like BROKEN, though, has *nothing* to do with maturity. a feature can be any of those maturity levels, and simultaneously be BROKEN. i consider BROKEN to be what i call a status, and different status levels might be the default of normal, or KIND_OF_FLAKY or TOTALLY_BORKED -- that's where BROKEN would fit in. BROKEN is definitely a maturity level. no. it's not. end of discussion. you're wrong. the concept of maturity level reflects where in the life cycle some feature is. it will typically start as bleeding edge or experimental or something like that, eventually stabilize to be normal (which would be the obvious default), after which, when its value starts to run out and it begins showing its age, it becomes deprecated and eventually obsolete it's a natural and obvious progression. on the other hand, a feature can be broken at *any* point in that life cycle -- that's why it is absolutely *not* a maturity level. please don't fight with me on this, jeff. you're simply wrong. Get off your high horse and actually look at the patches that mark things BROKEN. 'deprecrated' and 'obsolete' are matters of discussed opinion, describing the utility of the code in question. 'broken' describes the state of the code itself. Clear difference. Jeff, one who actually marks this stuff as such - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Jeff Garzik wrote: 'deprecrated' and 'obsolete' are matters of discussed opinion, describing the utility of the code in question. 'broken' describes the state of the code itself. Clear difference. precisely. thank you for making my point for me. rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://crashcourse.ca - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 05:18:20PM -0400, Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote: On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 04:51:33PM -0400, Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Jeff Garzik wrote: Randy Dunlap wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: there's no point adding all that redundant content when it can all be done automatically. I like it. Are there any kconfig patches to support this plan? Speaking specifically to adding 'EXPERIMENTAL', I distinctly remember at some point in the past the config system was smart enough to print (EXPERIMENTAL) if that entry depended on CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL. We should head in that direction. there's one point i want to re-iterate. i'd prefer to see EXPERIMENTAL stop being a dependency, as in: depends on SNAFU FUBAR EXPERIMENTAL EXPERIMENTAL is not a dependency in the true sense of the word -- it is more of an attribute, and i think it would far more sense to see entries like: depends on SNAFU FUBAR maturity EXPERIMENTAL Plus some special case in the kconfig code that you can somewhere select the maturity levels you want to use (currently it's a normal option kconfig doesn't have to know anything about). i already described that here: http://readlist.com/lists/vger.kernel.org/linux-kernel/66/334172.html where the top-level config would look something like: [*] Activate maturity attributes [*] EXPERIMENTAL [*] DEPRECATED [*] OBSOLETE [*] BROKEN We already made the mistake of offering BROKEN as an option in the past, and the result was that people enabled it instead of reporting that a dependency on BROKEN was wrong. whereupon you could select any combination of the attributes you want displayed *beyond the regular ones* during the config process. Remind me, would there be any big advantage after such a change besides being able to automatically print (EXPERIMENTAL) at the end of the prompt? defining a new Kconfig attribute means you can process it differently from regular dependencies. and if it's added as a general feature, it can be used for other possible attributes beyond just a maturity level. if you leave these maturity levels as regular dependencies, you're going to have to brute force and manually process them, and why make it that ugly? I would consider it more ugly to special case this and that in the kconfig code when plain dependencies already offer exactly the same functionality... rday cu Adrian -- Is there not promise of rain? Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. Only a promise, Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote: ... I would consider it more ugly to special case this and that in the kconfig code when plain dependencies already offer exactly the same functionality... well, this is the *third* time i've proposed adding this kind of feature so, at this point, i've really given up caring about it. if someone wants to do this, have at it. i have better things to do than to keep suggesting it and getting nowhere with it. rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://fsdev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote: ... I would consider it more ugly to special case this and that in the kconfig code when plain dependencies already offer exactly the same functionality... well, this is the *third* time i've proposed adding this kind of feature so, at this point, i've really given up caring about it. if someone wants to do this, have at it. i have better things to do than to keep suggesting it and getting nowhere with it. For better or worse, it can often be observed that feature requests don't set anything in motion until a first patch is sent. Even a patch that is far from perfect can get things going really quickly. (If the requested feature makes sense to other people.) -- Stefan Richter -=-=-=== -=== =--== http://arcgraph.de/sr/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Stefan Richter wrote: Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote: ... I would consider it more ugly to special case this and that in the kconfig code when plain dependencies already offer exactly the same functionality... well, this is the *third* time i've proposed adding this kind of feature so, at this point, i've really given up caring about it. if someone wants to do this, have at it. i have better things to do than to keep suggesting it and getting nowhere with it. For better or worse, it can often be observed that feature requests don't set anything in motion until a first patch is sent. Even a patch that is far from perfect can get things going really quickly. (If the requested feature makes sense to other people.) i *did* submit a preliminary patch once upon a time, and it (predictably) went nowhere. so, if someone else wants to pick this up and do something with it, you have my blessing. life's too short to keep wasting time on this. rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://fsdev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
Robert P. J. Day wrote: i *did* submit a preliminary patch once upon a time, and it (predictably) went nowhere. A patch which pulls the word experimental into prompts or adds a dedicated directive for tagging of options? Can't find it in archives. -- Stefan Richter -=-=-=== -=== =--== http://arcgraph.de/sr/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 05:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Stefan Richter wrote: Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote: ... I would consider it more ugly to special case this and that in the kconfig code when plain dependencies already offer exactly the same functionality... well, this is the *third* time i've proposed adding this kind of feature so, at this point, i've really given up caring about it. if someone wants to do this, have at it. i have better things to do than to keep suggesting it and getting nowhere with it. For better or worse, it can often be observed that feature requests don't set anything in motion until a first patch is sent. Even a patch that is far from perfect can get things going really quickly. (If the requested feature makes sense to other people.) i *did* submit a preliminary patch once upon a time, and it (predictably) went nowhere. so, if someone else wants to pick this up and do something with it, you have my blessing. life's too short to keep wasting time on this. I think that Stefan means a patch to the kconfig source code, not the the Kconfig files. Good luck. I'd still like to see it. --- ~Randy *** Remember to use Documentation/SubmitChecklist when testing your code *** - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 05:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Stefan Richter wrote: Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote: ... I would consider it more ugly to special case this and that in the kconfig code when plain dependencies already offer exactly the same functionality... well, this is the *third* time i've proposed adding this kind of feature so, at this point, i've really given up caring about it. if someone wants to do this, have at it. i have better things to do than to keep suggesting it and getting nowhere with it. For better or worse, it can often be observed that feature requests don't set anything in motion until a first patch is sent. Even a patch that is far from perfect can get things going really quickly. (If the requested feature makes sense to other people.) i *did* submit a preliminary patch once upon a time, and it (predictably) went nowhere. so, if someone else wants to pick this up and do something with it, you have my blessing. life's too short to keep wasting time on this. I think that Stefan means a patch to the kconfig source code, not the the Kconfig files. Good luck. I'd still like to see it. yes, i understand what he wanted now. as a first step (that theoretically shouldn't change any behaviour), i'd patch the Kconfig structure to add a new attribute (maturity) which would be allowed to be set to *exactly one* of a pre-defined set of values (say, OBSOLETE, DEPRECATED, EXPERIMENTAL, and STILLBLEEDING). and that's it, nothing more. don't try to do anything with any of that just yet, just add the infrastructure to support the (optional) association of a maturity level with a config option. that's step one. rday p.s. and, yes, i really meant it when i said that an option could have one, and *only* one, maturity level. if you start arguing this point, i swear, i will hunt you down and give you *such* a wedgie. -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://fsdev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Simon Arlott wrote: On 19/07/07 17:19, Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote: I think that Stefan means a patch to the kconfig source code, not the the Kconfig files. Good luck. I'd still like to see it. yes, i understand what he wanted now. as a first step (that theoretically shouldn't change any behaviour), i'd patch the Kconfig structure to add a new attribute (maturity) which would be allowed to be set to *exactly one* of a pre-defined set of values (say, OBSOLETE, DEPRECATED, EXPERIMENTAL, and STILLBLEEDING). and that's it, nothing more. don't try to do anything with any of that just yet, just add the infrastructure to support the (optional) association of a maturity level with a config option. that's step one. What about something like this? I'm not sure if the addition to sym_init is desirable... I also had to prefix _ to the name for now otherwise it conflicts badly with the current symbols. It probably should stop depends on _BROKEN etc. too. --- diff --git a/init/Kconfig b/init/Kconfig diff --git a/net/Kconfig b/net/Kconfig index cdba08c..5e2f4db 100644 --- a/net/Kconfig +++ b/net/Kconfig @@ -6,6 +6,7 @@ menu Networking config NET bool Networking support + maturity _BROKEN just as a bit of a digression, BROKEN is not what i would call a maturity level, and i would explicitly *not* allow that as a possible maturity because that just makes a mess of the design. i specifically wanted to define a maturity level so that any feature could be categorized as belonging to *at most* one maturity level. that is, you can't be both EXPERIMENTAL and DEPRECATED at the same time -- that just makes no sense. once you tag some features with a maturity level, then part of the build would involve selecting which subset of maturity levels you wanted to see. by default, you'd get to see those features that weren't tagged at all, but you might also make a selection like this: [*] EXPERIMENTAL [*] DEPRECATED [ ] OBSOLETE in other words, you wanted the choice of stuff in the first two categories, but not the third. (you would, of course, always get to choose from non-tagged stuff, which would be your *normal* content, exactly as it is now). so what about BROKEN? i would invent a whole new attribute for that, called maybe status: config FUBAR depends on ... maturity DEPRECATED status BROKEN ... status is a totally orthogonal attribute to maturity. status might be one of BROKEN, BROKEN_ON_SMP, FLAKEY_AS HELL, etc. and, once again, any feature can fall into *at most* one status category. once you have the infrastructure to support a single attribute like maturity, you get any additional ones for free. and rather than defining all those things as simple dependencies, by creating new objects called attributes, you can play all sorts of interesting new games, and the attribute infrastructure can enforce that you're using it properly. now i'll go away and read the rest of your post. :-) rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://fsdev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Gabriel C wrote: Everything 'depends on' EXPERIMENTAL should be marked as such, visible in the menus. rather than add all that extraneous dreck to the Kconfig files, i *really* wish folks would give serious thought to my earlier suggestion about a maturity level attribute that could be used to not only add a parenthesized maturity level during display, but could also be used to activate/deactivate entire levels in one operation. there's no point adding all that redundant content when it can all be done automatically. rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://fsdev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Gabriel C wrote: Everything 'depends on' EXPERIMENTAL should be marked as such, visible in the menus. rather than add all that extraneous dreck to the Kconfig files, i *really* wish folks would give serious thought to my earlier suggestion about a maturity level attribute that could be used to not only add a parenthesized maturity level during display, but could also be used to activate/deactivate entire levels in one operation. there's no point adding all that redundant content when it can all be done automatically. I like it. Are there any kconfig patches to support this plan? --- ~Randy *** Remember to use Documentation/SubmitChecklist when testing your code *** - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
Randy Dunlap wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: there's no point adding all that redundant content when it can all be done automatically. I like it. Are there any kconfig patches to support this plan? Speaking specifically to adding 'EXPERIMENTAL', I distinctly remember at some point in the past the config system was smart enough to print (EXPERIMENTAL) if that entry depended on CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL. We should head in that direction. I strongly NAK the original patch from Gabriel C in this thread -- it just adds too much redundant info. Better to add it -once-, somewhere inside Kconfig system. Jeff - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Randy Dunlap wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Gabriel C wrote: Everything 'depends on' EXPERIMENTAL should be marked as such, visible in the menus. rather than add all that extraneous dreck to the Kconfig files, i *really* wish folks would give serious thought to my earlier suggestion about a maturity level attribute that could be used to not only add a parenthesized maturity level during display, but could also be used to activate/deactivate entire levels in one operation. there's no point adding all that redundant content when it can all be done automatically. I like it. Are there any kconfig patches to support this plan? once upon a time, i'd proposed just adding a couple new config entries, but i eventually decided that a better approach would be to define a whole new Kconfig directive, as in: config FUBAR maturity EXPERIMENTAL (or DEPRECATED or OBSOLETE or ...) that would require extra processing in the parser, but it would allow the maturity attribute to be used for all sorts of new and wacky things, such as automatically displaying it at the end of a config selection, or deselecting everything OBSOLETE in a build, etc. how hard would it be to add processing like that to the Kconfig infrastructure? rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://fsdev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Gabriel C wrote: Everything 'depends on' EXPERIMENTAL should be marked as such, visible in the menus. rather than add all that extraneous dreck to the Kconfig files, i *really* wish folks would give serious thought to my earlier suggestion about a maturity level attribute that could be used to not only add a parenthesized maturity level during display, but could also be used to activate/deactivate entire levels in one operation. there's no point adding all that redundant content when it can all be done automatically. I don't know what your suggestion was , I'm sorry. It may be for sure a good idea to add all this maturity levels automatically but for now such an thing does not exists. rday Gabriel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
Jeff Garzik wrote: Randy Dunlap wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: there's no point adding all that redundant content when it can all be done automatically. I like it. Are there any kconfig patches to support this plan? Speaking specifically to adding 'EXPERIMENTAL', I distinctly remember at some point in the past the config system was smart enough to print (EXPERIMENTAL) if that entry depended on CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL. We should head in that direction. I strongly NAK the original patch from Gabriel C in this thread -- it just adds too much redundant info. Better to add it -once-, somewhere inside Kconfig system. Jeff Yes, that's what Robert I are referring to as well (AFAIK). -- ~Randy *** Remember to use Documentation/SubmitChecklist when testing your code *** - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Jeff Garzik wrote: Randy Dunlap wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: there's no point adding all that redundant content when it can all be done automatically. I like it. Are there any kconfig patches to support this plan? Speaking specifically to adding 'EXPERIMENTAL', I distinctly remember at some point in the past the config system was smart enough to print (EXPERIMENTAL) if that entry depended on CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL. We should head in that direction. there's one point i want to re-iterate. i'd prefer to see EXPERIMENTAL stop being a dependency, as in: depends on SNAFU FUBAR EXPERIMENTAL EXPERIMENTAL is not a dependency in the true sense of the word -- it is more of an attribute, and i think it would far more sense to see entries like: depends on SNAFU FUBAR maturity EXPERIMENTAL sure, it's more work, but i think the cost is worth it in terms of flexibility (particularly if *i'm* not the one doing the work. :-) rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://fsdev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 04:51:33PM -0400, Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Jeff Garzik wrote: Randy Dunlap wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: there's no point adding all that redundant content when it can all be done automatically. I like it. Are there any kconfig patches to support this plan? Speaking specifically to adding 'EXPERIMENTAL', I distinctly remember at some point in the past the config system was smart enough to print (EXPERIMENTAL) if that entry depended on CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL. We should head in that direction. there's one point i want to re-iterate. i'd prefer to see EXPERIMENTAL stop being a dependency, as in: depends on SNAFU FUBAR EXPERIMENTAL EXPERIMENTAL is not a dependency in the true sense of the word -- it is more of an attribute, and i think it would far more sense to see entries like: depends on SNAFU FUBAR maturity EXPERIMENTAL Plus some special case in the kconfig code that you can somewhere select the maturity levels you want to use (currently it's a normal option kconfig doesn't have to know anything about). Remind me, would there be any big advantage after such a change besides being able to automatically print (EXPERIMENTAL) at the end of the prompt? sure, it's more work, but i think the cost is worth it in terms of flexibility (particularly if *i'm* not the one doing the work. :-) If you are not doing it, noone might do it. And discusing improvements noone will implement is somehow pointless... rday cu Adrian -- Is there not promise of rain? Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. Only a promise, Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote: On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 04:51:33PM -0400, Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Jeff Garzik wrote: Randy Dunlap wrote: On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Robert P. J. Day wrote: there's no point adding all that redundant content when it can all be done automatically. I like it. Are there any kconfig patches to support this plan? Speaking specifically to adding 'EXPERIMENTAL', I distinctly remember at some point in the past the config system was smart enough to print (EXPERIMENTAL) if that entry depended on CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL. We should head in that direction. there's one point i want to re-iterate. i'd prefer to see EXPERIMENTAL stop being a dependency, as in: depends on SNAFU FUBAR EXPERIMENTAL EXPERIMENTAL is not a dependency in the true sense of the word -- it is more of an attribute, and i think it would far more sense to see entries like: depends on SNAFU FUBAR maturity EXPERIMENTAL Plus some special case in the kconfig code that you can somewhere select the maturity levels you want to use (currently it's a normal option kconfig doesn't have to know anything about). i already described that here: http://readlist.com/lists/vger.kernel.org/linux-kernel/66/334172.html where the top-level config would look something like: [*] Activate maturity attributes [*] EXPERIMENTAL [*] DEPRECATED [*] OBSOLETE [*] BROKEN whereupon you could select any combination of the attributes you want displayed *beyond the regular ones* during the config process. Remind me, would there be any big advantage after such a change besides being able to automatically print (EXPERIMENTAL) at the end of the prompt? defining a new Kconfig attribute means you can process it differently from regular dependencies. and if it's added as a general feature, it can be used for other possible attributes beyond just a maturity level. if you leave these maturity levels as regular dependencies, you're going to have to brute force and manually process them, and why make it that ugly? rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://fsdev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [PATCH] net/, drivers/net/ , missing EXPERIMENTAL in menus
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote: If you are not doing it, noone might do it. And discusing improvements noone will implement is somehow pointless... sure, i'm willing to help, but i don't think doing *nothing* about it is an option. you may not like gabriel's proposed patch, but you have to admit that he has a valid objection that should be addressed. so you can address it the manual and brute force way, or you can invest a little more time and do it right. but, either way, i think you have to deal with it. now it's just time to make a choice. rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA http://fsdev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe netdev in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
