Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, 2007-03-05 at 07:59 -0500, Theodore Tso wrote: > (depending on whether we want to accomodate Debian's glacial > release schedule). I don't think Debian updates the kernel to some actual newer version either. johannes signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 02:39:00PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > Ok, I only named HAL as that is what people have told me the problem is. > I have been running this change on my boxs, without > CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED since last July or so. > > But I don't use NetworkManager here for the most part, but I have tried > this in the OpenSuse10.3 alpha releases and it seems to work just fine > with whatever version of NetworkManager it uses. At a guess, you're carrying either a git snapshot or have backports from git. Several distributions do this, but until there's actually been a released version that works, it's a bit early to set a timescale. -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:17:09 -0800 Greg KH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 05:08:49PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote: > > On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:56:25 -0500 > > Theodore Tso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > So the question really is are we really done making changes to sysfs, > > > or maybe what we should do is talk about major version numbers to > > > sysfs. > > > > Perhaps using a config option wasn't the right way to do this - a kernel > > boot parameter might be better. > > Ok, I have no problem with that if people really want it. But give me > the option to also make it a config option so I don't have to change our > bootloaders too. Sometimes we provide a config option which provides the default version of the boot option. So: CONFIG_SYSFS_VERSION=1.2 and if (user_provided_sysfs_version == NULL) user_provided_sysfs_version = CONFIG_SYSFS_VERSION; > Does that sound acceptable? If we make CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED just a boolean boot option then that fixes this problem (we hope) but won't help us next time we want to change something. It all depends on whether sysfs is finished yet ;) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 05:08:49PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote: > On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:56:25 -0500 > Theodore Tso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > So the question really is are we really done making changes to sysfs, > > or maybe what we should do is talk about major version numbers to > > sysfs. > > Perhaps using a config option wasn't the right way to do this - a kernel > boot parameter might be better. Ok, I have no problem with that if people really want it. But give me the option to also make it a config option so I don't have to change our bootloaders too. Does that sound acceptable? thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:56:25PM -0500, Theodore Tso wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:37:15PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > > But I AM TRYING TO MAKE IT COMPATIBLE!!! > > > > That's what that config option is there for. If you happen to be > > running a newer userspace, a different distro than what is in Debian > > right now, or don't use HAL and Networkmanager, then disable that > > option. Then all of sysfs looks just like it used to, no user visble > > changes at all. It doesn't get any more compatible than that. > > This is great, but I think the real problem isn't the config option, > but what is changing if the config option isn't enabled. The claim > which some, including Matt and Bron, seem to be making is that if you > turn *off* CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED, you must be using at least hal > 0.5.9-rc1, released ***yesterday***, or suffer breakages for at least > some system configurations. Ok, well that has been proven incorrect. I originally thought it was HAL that had the problem, but I think that is not true, as I am using the older version of hal here (0.5.7.1) just fine. > So the problem with putting a date in Kconfig.txt help file, or in > Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt, is that if there are other > incompatible changes which are added to sysfs in say, December 2007 or > January 2008, but which are papered over with CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED, > and then come June 2008, CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is unceremoniously > ripped out, then users will get screwed. > > So the question really is are we really done making changes to sysfs, > or maybe what we should do is talk about major version numbers to > sysfs. Call what we have currently not CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED, but > rather CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_1. At the moment, CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_2 is > undergoing changes, but at some point we need to lock down and state > that Layout version 2 is never going to change, and then people who > want changes can go work on CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_3. > > The problem with calling CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is that people think > that since it's deprecated, it should be turned off, but if we have > staged major version numbers, with guarantees of absolute stability > once a particular major version number is locked down, then it may > make it a lot easier to talk about what version of hal and udev and > Network Manager is really needed for different versions. This is what Documentation/ABI/ has tried to nail down, unfortunatly it has turned out to be very hard to track down all of the odd userspace programs that use sysfs and see what they are relying on. We are slowly fixing things, as is proof in the OpenSuSE and Gentoo releases. And I'll be the first to admit that the ABI/ directory needs some flushing out... And it isn't really a whole different layout, the only problem here is that a directory has turned into a symlink, so programs that were not written that well (and I'll be the first to admit that I made the same mistake in udev many years ago) and can't handle the change. So numerous programs "just work" fine, but for a limited few, they have problems, hence the config option so that nothing will break. And if you look in the ABI/ directory, it describes this usage of the class devices in sysfs. But again, no one is flushing out the users of these features, or even reading the stuff that is there... So, again, a better wording for the CONFIG help text anyone? Or a better name for the CONFIG value itself? thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:56:25 -0500 Theodore Tso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So the question really is are we really done making changes to sysfs, > or maybe what we should do is talk about major version numbers to > sysfs. Perhaps using a config option wasn't the right way to do this - a kernel boot parameter might be better. In fact, one could envisage a kernel boot parameter "sysfs_version=N" which will allow distro people to select the sysfs-of-the-day which works with their userspace. Because it does appear that we need _something_ which will get us away from this ongoing problem of needing to keep the kernel and userspace synchronised across sysfs changes. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:37:15PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > But I AM TRYING TO MAKE IT COMPATIBLE!!! > > That's what that config option is there for. If you happen to be > running a newer userspace, a different distro than what is in Debian > right now, or don't use HAL and Networkmanager, then disable that > option. Then all of sysfs looks just like it used to, no user visble > changes at all. It doesn't get any more compatible than that. This is great, but I think the real problem isn't the config option, but what is changing if the config option isn't enabled. The claim which some, including Matt and Bron, seem to be making is that if you turn *off* CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED, you must be using at least hal 0.5.9-rc1, released ***yesterday***, or suffer breakages for at least some system configurations. So the problem with putting a date in Kconfig.txt help file, or in Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt, is that if there are other incompatible changes which are added to sysfs in say, December 2007 or January 2008, but which are papered over with CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED, and then come June 2008, CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is unceremoniously ripped out, then users will get screwed. So the question really is are we really done making changes to sysfs, or maybe what we should do is talk about major version numbers to sysfs. Call what we have currently not CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED, but rather CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_1. At the moment, CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_2 is undergoing changes, but at some point we need to lock down and state that Layout version 2 is never going to change, and then people who want changes can go work on CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_3. The problem with calling CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is that people think that since it's deprecated, it should be turned off, but if we have staged major version numbers, with guarantees of absolute stability once a particular major version number is locked down, then it may make it a lot easier to talk about what version of hal and udev and Network Manager is really needed for different versions. - Ted - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 03:14:25PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:46:09PM +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > > That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this > > > morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest > > > releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And > > > there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that > > > hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the > > > problem here. > > > > hal 0.5.9-rc1 (released, not from git) should work. It will be > > problably released soon and picked by sane distributions. Debian is very > > irritating corner case. > > Presumably the -rc1 stands for "release candidate". Which means "not > yet released". And when did it show up? 04-Mar-2007 at 18:31. That's > right, YESTERDAY. Almost a full month after Greg's commit. > > For the last time, DEBIAN IS NOT THE PROBLEM. Can I please second this (having been burned by hell that was udev of the 0.5ish era) - Greg, please try to make changes in a cross-compatible way so that versions of userspace and kernel are not so closely dependant on tracking each other. The whole 2.6.8 -> 2.6.12 series of kernels and associated udevs are fraught with race conditions where upgrading one but not the other will leave your machine unbootable. I read the "manifesto" for udev showing how crap devfs was, it was broken, it could never be fixed etc - yet my experience was that devfs systems "just worked"[tm] and udev was very dangerous. My thinking is going to be tarnished by that for a while and my mental image of udev is "unreliable POS". I'm hoping enough good experiences with udev might make me feel less scared whenever I have to deal with it. Similarly, I'm hoping I don't have to think "oh shit, will this break boot" every time I upgrade either a kernel or hal version for the next year, because it would really suck to do that all over again. It contributes to the meme that linux is unreliable and perpetually unstable. Regards, Bron. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 11:24:57AM +1100, Bron Gondwana wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 03:14:25PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:46:09PM +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > > > That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this > > > > morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest > > > > releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And > > > > there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that > > > > hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the > > > > problem here. > > > > > > hal 0.5.9-rc1 (released, not from git) should work. It will be > > > problably released soon and picked by sane distributions. Debian is very > > > irritating corner case. > > > > Presumably the -rc1 stands for "release candidate". Which means "not > > yet released". And when did it show up? 04-Mar-2007 at 18:31. That's > > right, YESTERDAY. Almost a full month after Greg's commit. > > > > For the last time, DEBIAN IS NOT THE PROBLEM. > > Can I please second this (having been burned by hell that was udev of > the 0.5ish era) - Greg, please try to make changes in a cross-compatible > way so that versions of userspace and kernel are not so closely > dependant on tracking each other. The whole 2.6.8 -> 2.6.12 series of > kernels and associated udevs are fraught with race conditions where > upgrading one but not the other will leave your machine unbootable. But I AM TRYING TO MAKE IT COMPATIBLE!!! That's what that config option is there for. If you happen to be running a newer userspace, a different distro than what is in Debian right now, or don't use HAL and Networkmanager, then disable that option. Then all of sysfs looks just like it used to, no user visble changes at all. It doesn't get any more compatible than that. Again, I've pointed out distros that work just fine many times in this thread... It's been there since 2.6.20 I think, no one seemed to have noticed it then for an odd reason... And the default is enabled, you have to manually turn it off in order to break your machine. Again, how can I word this in a manner that would be sufficient to keep this misunderstanding from happening again? greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
Greg KH wrote: On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:59:50AM -0500, Theodore Tso wrote: Ok, how about the following patch. Is it acceptable to everyone? thanks, greg k-h --- init/Kconfig | 13 +++-- 1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in order to support older versions of udev. - If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later, - it should be safe to say N here. + If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora + release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here. + + If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to + update HAL, please say Y here. + + If you have any problems with devices not being found properly + from userspace programs, and this option is disabled, say Y + here. + + If you are unsure about this at all, say Y. config RELAY bool "Kernel->user space relay support (formerly relayfs)" Since it appears you're trying to offend people with this patch, it would seem appropriate to call someone's mother a "bad" name. This may be in the style guide; perhaps I should submit a patch. -- Jeffrey Hundstad PS: Humor (really!) relax. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 01:55:30PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > > Ok, how about the following patch. Is it acceptable to everyone? > > > > - If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later, > > - it should be safe to say N here. > > + If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora > > + release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here. > > + > > + If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to > > + update HAL, please say Y here. > > What HAL version do you think Debian ought to have, pray tell? And > what the hell version do those other distros have? > > The last HAL release was 0.5.8 on 11-Sep-2006. It showed up in > Debian/unstable on 2-Oct. There have been six Debian bugfix releases, > the most recent on 12-Feb. > > http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/dist/ > http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/h/hal/hal_0.5.8.1-6.1/changelog Ok, I only named HAL as that is what people have told me the problem is. I have been running this change on my boxs, without CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED since last July or so. But I don't use NetworkManager here for the most part, but I have tried this in the OpenSuse10.3 alpha releases and it seems to work just fine with whatever version of NetworkManager it uses. So perhaps it's some wrapper scripts somewhere? I think SuSE had some odd things hard coded somewhere that prevented 10.1 from working properly with this change. Ok, so I'll drop the HAL wording above, what should I say instead? thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:46:09PM +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 01:13:26AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this > > morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest > > releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And > > there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that > > hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the > > problem here. > > hal 0.5.9-rc1 (released, not from git) should work. It will be > problably released soon and picked by sane distributions. Debian is very > irritating corner case. As of right now, Fedora Core 6 has hal-0.5.8.1-6.fc6. This is also too old. Please, stop claiming that Debian unstable is some corner case. No one is talking about Debian stable here. No one is talking about the Enterprise versions of Red Hat or SuSE (you'd find them just as irritating with modern kernels). Debian unstable tracks released code as fast or faster than Fedora and OpenSuSE. They all keep up with releases. But the last release of hal is 0.5.8.1. _Release_, not "release candidate". You can't break that. You can't break it for a while, if you want a sane deprecation schedule. These are userspace interfaces. Matt is absolutely correct that you should't deprecate a userspace<->kernel interface before you've even provided a release of the tool that detects the change! Joel -- "When ideas fail, words come in very handy." - Goethe Joel Becker Principal Software Developer Oracle E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (650) 506-8127 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:46:09PM +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this > > morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest > > releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And > > there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that > > hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the > > problem here. > > hal 0.5.9-rc1 (released, not from git) should work. It will be > problably released soon and picked by sane distributions. Debian is very > irritating corner case. Presumably the -rc1 stands for "release candidate". Which means "not yet released". And when did it show up? 04-Mar-2007 at 18:31. That's right, YESTERDAY. Almost a full month after Greg's commit. For the last time, DEBIAN IS NOT THE PROBLEM. -- Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > Ok, how about the following patch. Is it acceptable to everyone? > > - If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later, > - it should be safe to say N here. > + If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora > + release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here. > + > + If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to > + update HAL, please say Y here. What HAL version do you think Debian ought to have, pray tell? And what the hell version do those other distros have? The last HAL release was 0.5.8 on 11-Sep-2006. It showed up in Debian/unstable on 2-Oct. There have been six Debian bugfix releases, the most recent on 12-Feb. http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/dist/ http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/h/hal/hal_0.5.8.1-6.1/changelog The last NetworkManager is 0.6.4 released 13-Jul-2006. It showed up in Debian/unstable on 8-Aug. There have been five bugfix releases, the most recent on 30-Nov. http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/NetworkManager/0.6/ http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/n/network-manager/network-manager_0.6.4-6/changelog Debian is NOT the problem. -- Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:59:50AM -0500, Theodore Tso wrote: > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:17:29PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > > I should not have broken any userspace if CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is > > enabled with that patch. If that is enabled, and that patch still > > causes problems, please let me know. > > But we still need to update the help text for CONFIG_SYS_DEPRECATED to > make it clear that its deprecation schedule still needs to be 2009 to > 2011 (depending on whether we want to accomodate Debian's glacial > release schedule). Certainly the 2006 date which is currently there > simply isn't accurate. Ok, how about the following patch. Is it acceptable to everyone? thanks, greg k-h --- init/Kconfig | 13 +++-- 1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in order to support older versions of udev. - If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later, - it should be safe to say N here. + If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora + release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here. + + If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to + update HAL, please say Y here. + + If you have any problems with devices not being found properly + from userspace programs, and this option is disabled, say Y + here. + + If you are unsure about this at all, say Y. config RELAY bool "Kernel->user space relay support (formerly relayfs)" - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 01:13:26AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 11:02:48PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:42:29AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:16:25PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > > > > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:08:57PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > > > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly > > > > > related problems: > > > > > > > > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 > > > > > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports: > > > > > > > > > > Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) : > > > > > SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported. > > > > > > > > Do you have CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED enabled? If not, please do as that > > > > will keep you from having to change any userspace code. > > > > > > No, it's disabled. Will test once I'm done tracking down the iwconfig > > > problem. From the help text for SYSFS_DEPRECATED: > > > > > > If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or > > > later, it should be safe to say N here. > > > > > > If we need an as-yet-unreleased HAL without it, I would say the above > > > should be changed to 2008 or so. If Debian actually cuts a release in > > > the next few months, you might make that 2010. > > > > Well, just because Debian has such a slow release cycle, should the rest > > of the world be forced to follow suit? :) > > > > When I originally wrote that, I thought Debian would have already done > > their release, my mistake... > > That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this > morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest > releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And > there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that > hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the > problem here. hal 0.5.9-rc1 (released, not from git) should work. It will be problably released soon and picked by sane distributions. Debian is very irritating corner case. -- Tomasz TorczOnly gods can safely risk perfection, [EMAIL PROTECTED] it's a dangerous thing for a man. -- Alia - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:17:29PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > I should not have broken any userspace if CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is > enabled with that patch. If that is enabled, and that patch still > causes problems, please let me know. But we still need to update the help text for CONFIG_SYS_DEPRECATED to make it clear that its deprecation schedule still needs to be 2009 to 2011 (depending on whether we want to accomodate Debian's glacial release schedule). Certainly the 2006 date which is currently there simply isn't accurate. - Ted - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 17:17 -0800, Greg KH wrote: > > > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is > > > to upgrade hal to a current git version. > > > > If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break > > userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to > > 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace, > > especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. > > I should not have broken any userspace if CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is > enabled with that patch. If that is enabled, and that patch still > causes problems, please let me know. Yeah, sorry for not mentioning that in my original email and the discussion it stirred. johannes signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 11:02:48PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:42:29AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:16:25PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:08:57PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly > > > > related problems: > > > > > > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 > > > > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports: > > > > > > > > Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) : > > > > SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported. > > > > > > Do you have CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED enabled? If not, please do as that > > > will keep you from having to change any userspace code. > > > > No, it's disabled. Will test once I'm done tracking down the iwconfig > > problem. From the help text for SYSFS_DEPRECATED: > > > > If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or > > later, it should be safe to say N here. > > > > If we need an as-yet-unreleased HAL without it, I would say the above > > should be changed to 2008 or so. If Debian actually cuts a release in > > the next few months, you might make that 2010. > > Well, just because Debian has such a slow release cycle, should the rest > of the world be forced to follow suit? :) > > When I originally wrote that, I thought Debian would have already done > their release, my mistake... That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the problem here. If it is indeed the case that HAL needs to be upgraded here, the clock on deprecating these features can't even start counting until a usable HAL version is released. And then you need to give it at least a year after that before you can start recommending people disable it. -- Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:42:29AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:16:25PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:08:57PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly > > > related problems: > > > > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 > > > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports: > > > > > > Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) : > > > SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported. > > > > Do you have CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED enabled? If not, please do as that > > will keep you from having to change any userspace code. > > No, it's disabled. Will test once I'm done tracking down the iwconfig > problem. From the help text for SYSFS_DEPRECATED: > > If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or > later, it should be safe to say N here. > > If we need an as-yet-unreleased HAL without it, I would say the above > should be changed to 2008 or so. If Debian actually cuts a release in > the next few months, you might make that 2010. Well, just because Debian has such a slow release cycle, should the rest of the world be forced to follow suit? :) When I originally wrote that, I thought Debian would have already done their release, my mistake... thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:16:25PM -0800, Greg KH wrote: > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:08:57PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly > > related problems: > > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 > > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports: > > > > Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) : > > SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported. > > Do you have CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED enabled? If not, please do as that > will keep you from having to change any userspace code. No, it's disabled. Will test once I'm done tracking down the iwconfig problem. From the help text for SYSFS_DEPRECATED: If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later, it should be safe to say N here. If we need an as-yet-unreleased HAL without it, I would say the above should be changed to 2008 or so. If Debian actually cuts a release in the next few months, you might make that 2010. -- Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 06:25:50PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:39:24AM +0100, Johannes Berg wrote: > > [adding linux-wireless to CC] > > > > On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 16:08 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly > > > related problems: > > > > I don't think they are related actually. > > > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 > > > > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is > > to upgrade hal to a current git version. > > If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break > userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to > 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace, > especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. I should not have broken any userspace if CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is enabled with that patch. If that is enabled, and that patch still causes problems, please let me know. thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:08:57PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly > related problems: > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports: > > Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) : > SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported. Do you have CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED enabled? If not, please do as that will keep you from having to change any userspace code. thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:45:25PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote: > On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 18:25:50 -0600 Matt Mackall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:39:24AM +0100, Johannes Berg wrote: > > > [adding linux-wireless to CC] > > > > > > On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 16:08 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly > > > > related problems: > > > > > > I don't think they are related actually. > > > > > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 > > > > > > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is > > > to upgrade hal to a current git version. > > > > If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break > > userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to > > 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace, > > especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. > > yep. Adrian, I think we should track this as a blocking regression, at > least until we've fully understood the implications and had the usual > arguments. I'm currently tracking it as one of the 31 2.6.21-rc regressions that are not yet fixed in Linus' tree, and for me each of them is a blocker until proven otherwise. Whether Linus releases 2.6.21 despite blocking regressions is a different question... cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 18:25:50 -0600 Matt Mackall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:39:24AM +0100, Johannes Berg wrote: > > [adding linux-wireless to CC] > > > > On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 16:08 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly > > > related problems: > > > > I don't think they are related actually. > > > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 > > > > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is > > to upgrade hal to a current git version. > > If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break > userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to > 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace, > especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. yep. Adrian, I think we should track this as a blocking regression, at least until we've fully understood the implications and had the usual arguments. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On 3/5/07, Matt Mackall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is > to upgrade hal to a current git version. If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace, especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. I will try a new HAL when it shows up in Debian/unstable and not a moment sooner. But you're running a kernel that's not in Debian/unstable so this seems a bit hypocritical. When you work with bleeding edge kernels you have to be prepared to work around things. Hell for ages git wasn't in Debian - unstable even, udev would break things etc. Just my 2c worth. -- Web: http://wand.net.nz/~iam4 Blog: http://iansblog.jandi.co.nz WAND Network Research Group - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:39:24AM +0100, Johannes Berg wrote: > [adding linux-wireless to CC] > > On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 16:08 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly > > related problems: > > I don't think they are related actually. > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 > > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is > to upgrade hal to a current git version. If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace, especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. I will try a new HAL when it shows up in Debian/unstable and not a moment sooner. > > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports: > > That one's strange. > > > A second attempt to enable WEP via iwconfig succeeds and network > > connectivity is normal. However, NetworkManager still ignores the > > device at this point. > > I'd think it's a ipw bug but I have no idea if that was even touched > during this time. > > > Bisect with Mercurial points to this patch: > > > > $ hg bisect bad > > The first bad revision is: > > changeset: 46985:f701b96bb2f7 > > user:Greg Kroah-Hartman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > date:Wed Feb 07 10:37:11 2007 -0800 > > summary: Network: convert network devices to use struct device > > instead of class_device > > > > which corresponds to 43cb76d91ee85f579a69d42bc8efc08bac560278 in git. > > Yup, sysfs breakage/hal stuff. Can you try with a recent hal? And maybe > try to bisect the iwconfig stop thing if you've got enough time... Will double-check the iwconfig tests. It's been masked by NetworkManager for a while. -- Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
[adding linux-wireless to CC] On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 16:08 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote: > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly > related problems: I don't think they are related actually. > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is to upgrade hal to a current git version. > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports: That one's strange. > A second attempt to enable WEP via iwconfig succeeds and network > connectivity is normal. However, NetworkManager still ignores the > device at this point. I'd think it's a ipw bug but I have no idea if that was even touched during this time. > Bisect with Mercurial points to this patch: > > $ hg bisect bad > The first bad revision is: > changeset: 46985:f701b96bb2f7 > user:Greg Kroah-Hartman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > date:Wed Feb 07 10:37:11 2007 -0800 > summary: Network: convert network devices to use struct device > instead of class_device > > which corresponds to 43cb76d91ee85f579a69d42bc8efc08bac560278 in git. Yup, sysfs breakage/hal stuff. Can you try with a recent hal? And maybe try to bisect the iwconfig stop thing if you've got enough time... johannes signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)
Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly related problems: a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200 b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports: Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) : SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported. During this time, my keyboard in X is unresponsive, but everything else seems to be functioning properly. Queued keypresses eventually show up. Alt-sysrq-w gives: ieee80211_crypt: registered algorithm 'WEP' SysRq : Show Blocked State freesibling task PCstack pid father child younger older events/0 D C0102D3C 0 4 1 5 3 (L-TLB) c1d0bf1c 0046 c1d0ac20 c0102d3c c1d0aa70 0022 000a c1d0aa70 ca8ed618 0034 0cd3 c1d0ab7c 0287 0002 f581f040 0002 c1d0bf34 0246 f7b5cb04 c1d0aa70 c038224e c0102c3a Call Trace: [] __switch_to+0x11b/0x143 [] __mutex_lock_slowpath+0xfb/0x1e2 [] __switch_to+0x19/0x143 [] ipw_bg_link_down+0x19/0xbd [ipw2200] [] ipw_bg_link_down+0x0/0xbd [ipw2200] [] run_workqueue+0x97/0x156 [] worker_thread+0x105/0x12e [] default_wake_function+0x0/0xc [] worker_thread+0x0/0x12e [] kthread+0xa0/0xc9 [] kthread+0x0/0xc9 [] kernel_thread_helper+0x7/0x10 === ipw2200/0 D 0020 0 1985 6 2260 1983 (L-TLB) f7981f24 0046 0001 0020 c1cdf8c0 000a f7d09030 e1fdc8c3 0034 093a f7d0913c 0086 0020 f7c4a740 0086 f7981f3c 0246 f7b5cb04 f7d09030 c038224e f7d09030 c0496550 Call Trace: [] __mutex_lock_slowpath+0xfb/0x1e2 [] __sched_text_start+0x4b3/0x56b [] ipw_bg_gather_stats+0x0/0x27 [ipw2200] [] ipw_bg_gather_stats+0x17/0x27 [ipw2200] [] run_workqueue+0x97/0x156 [] worker_thread+0x105/0x12e [] default_wake_function+0x0/0xc [] worker_thread+0x0/0x12e [] kthread+0xa0/0xc9 [] kthread+0x0/0xc9 [] kernel_thread_helper+0x7/0x10 === ieee80211_crypt_wep: could not allocate crypto API arc4 eth1: could not initialize WEP: load module ieee80211_crypt_wep ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth1: link is not ready A second attempt to enable WEP via iwconfig succeeds and network connectivity is normal. However, NetworkManager still ignores the device at this point. Bisect with Mercurial points to this patch: $ hg bisect bad The first bad revision is: changeset: 46985:f701b96bb2f7 user:Greg Kroah-Hartman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> date:Wed Feb 07 10:37:11 2007 -0800 summary: Network: convert network devices to use struct device instead of class_device which corresponds to 43cb76d91ee85f579a69d42bc8efc08bac560278 in git. -- "Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.." - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
