Re: The Zombie Public – Or, how to revive ‘the public’ and public space after the pandemic.

[Michael Goldhaber]

Eric, in your diatribe  about openness, which seems to me quite silly and 
against the reality that perfectly legal assemblies have taken place, you also 
make a scientific statement of doubtful validity, that since the virus will 
continue to mutate there is no possible protection against it, such as that 
provided by lowering the transmission rate through SIP and masking, etc.. This 
is, as far as I can tell, a made-up fact. No decisions should be based on 
something that has simply not been clearly demonstrated about such a dangerous 
pathogen. 

Best,
Michael

> On Oct 8, 2020, at 4:04 PM, Eric Kluitenberg  wrote:
> 
> OK - hello lizvlx,
> 
> It was meanwhile pointed out to me whom I was talking to - pardon my 
> misconception about Uebermorgen, it was simply not clear to me who I was 
> talking to..
> 
> You are entirely justified to point out any issues in the text you do not 
> agree with. Thank you for that, it helps to see a broader context and any 
> possible misconceptions that might be there.
> 
> I have answered your questions as concise as I could in my previous mail - 
> nothing to add. You are supposing all kinds of things in my text and answers 
> that aren’t there. I leave it to the reader to make up their own mind.
> 
> -e.
> 
>> On 8 Oct 2020, at 23:53, lizvlx > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello ‘lizvix’ - don’t know who this is - the ‘Hans’ of Übermorgen?
>> 
>> Ahhh — Are you trying to be rude or are you really not aware that Ubermorgen 
>> consists not only of one man? I find that quite amusing :D - you are funny 
>> man.
>> 
>> So to clear that up, I am lizvlx, the lizvlx of Ubermorgen. 
>> 
>> Why do you use so many words! 
>> You are hard for me to understand.
>> 
>> Anyway.
>> 
>> Let me rephrase & comment (after all we do want to discuss this right):
>> 
>> 1. What do you mean the freedom of assembly has been suspended?
>> (Not true in Kenya, Nigeria, Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, USA, - I 
>> am only citing countries that are coming to my mind right now)
>> 
>> 2. How can you refer to “no particular” country - that is illogical when you 
>> are trying to make a point on legal issues which are always decided locally. 
>> There is a hge amount of democratic countries on this planet, on all 
>> continents. I am quite perplexed that you seem to think that a nice 
>> Eurocentric position will explain the Covid rules and changes in let’s say - 
>> Taiwan, Uganda or Columbia.
>> 
>> 3. Thank you for your answer to question 3 - even tho you really use many 
>> many words, but then, that is a male trait that maybe is to be not to made 
>> fun of.
>> Are you not concerned that your views on public health might come across as 
>> proto-fascist and medically-naive?
>> 
>> 4. Data - as much as I appreciate the academic thought on this - btw I 
>> usually use a Samsung, which unfortunately just broke down - but there is 
>> not A (1) corona app, but there are many. And they vary in their technology. 
>> But summa summarum, most are sharing less data then your average datamining 
>> gaming app. So from a programmer’s perspective I cannot see anything 
>> relevant added to the again huge data fields of the 21th century.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> lizvlx 
>> 
>> Ps: why are you talking about the weather? I don’t understand the relevance 
>> to your above points. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
 1. what do u mean by (mass) gatherings have been suspended? 
>>> 
>>> I wrote “The freedom of assembly has been suspended.” - under corona rules 
>>> virtually anywhere now only limited amounts of people are allowed to 
>>> assemble, which in effect means that this basic freedom is suspended. Mass 
>>> gatherings still happen, as I explained in some length in the piece, but 
>>> they are then in violation of these rules.
>> 
>> 
>>> 
 2. What countries r u referring to?
>>> 
>>> Not any country in particular, but the countries that have or pretend to 
>>> have some form of basic ‘democratic’ or civic governance (neoliberal 
>>> phantasy or not). Probably we must assume that ‘democratic rights’ are 
>>> always under threat / pressure, but with the covid-19 crisis I feel there 
>>> is a qualitatively different situation. 
>>> 
 3. do u have an issue with a lockdown per se or is this coz u don’t think 
 the pandemic necessitates such a thing?
>>> 
>>> I am writing in the essay about the question of ‘public space’ and the 
>>> erosion of ‘publicness’ and ’the public’ not about the politics of the 
>>> lockdowns.
>>> 
>>> My private opinion, which is outside the scope of this essay, is that in 
>>> some initial stage of the pandemic the lockdowns were maybe necessary, 
>>> given the overburdened care system, but in essence they are 
>>> counter-productive. The virus will not go away, it will stay around like 
>>> the flu and mutate regularly. Thus any vaccine will need to be updated 
>>> regularly and we will have to get it like the flu shot, or even in a 
>>> cocktail, probably annual

Re: The Zombie Public – Or, how to revive ‘the public’ and public space after the pandemic.

[Eric Kluitenberg]

OK - hello lizvlx,

It was meanwhile pointed out to me whom I was talking to - pardon my 
misconception about Uebermorgen, it was simply not clear to me who I was 
talking to..

You are entirely justified to point out any issues in the text you do not agree 
with. Thank you for that, it helps to see a broader context and any possible 
misconceptions that might be there.

I have answered your questions as concise as I could in my previous mail - 
nothing to add. You are supposing all kinds of things in my text and answers 
that aren’t there. I leave it to the reader to make up their own mind.

-e.

> On 8 Oct 2020, at 23:53, lizvlx  wrote:
> 
>> Hello ‘lizvix’ - don’t know who this is - the ‘Hans’ of Übermorgen?
> 
> Ahhh — Are you trying to be rude or are you really not aware that Ubermorgen 
> consists not only of one man? I find that quite amusing :D - you are funny 
> man.
> 
> So to clear that up, I am lizvlx, the lizvlx of Ubermorgen. 
> 
> Why do you use so many words! 
> You are hard for me to understand.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> Let me rephrase & comment (after all we do want to discuss this right):
> 
> 1. What do you mean the freedom of assembly has been suspended?
> (Not true in Kenya, Nigeria, Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, USA, - I 
> am only citing countries that are coming to my mind right now)
> 
> 2. How can you refer to “no particular” country - that is illogical when you 
> are trying to make a point on legal issues which are always decided locally. 
> There is a hge amount of democratic countries on this planet, on all 
> continents. I am quite perplexed that you seem to think that a nice 
> Eurocentric position will explain the Covid rules and changes in let’s say - 
> Taiwan, Uganda or Columbia.
> 
> 3. Thank you for your answer to question 3 - even tho you really use many 
> many words, but then, that is a male trait that maybe is to be not to made 
> fun of.
> Are you not concerned that your views on public health might come across as 
> proto-fascist and medically-naive?
> 
> 4. Data - as much as I appreciate the academic thought on this - btw I 
> usually use a Samsung, which unfortunately just broke down - but there is not 
> A (1) corona app, but there are many. And they vary in their technology. But 
> summa summarum, most are sharing less data then your average datamining 
> gaming app. So from a programmer’s perspective I cannot see anything relevant 
> added to the again huge data fields of the 21th century.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> lizvlx 
> 
> Ps: why are you talking about the weather? I don’t understand the relevance 
> to your above points. 
> 
> 
> 
>>> 1. what do u mean by (mass) gatherings have been suspended? 
>> 
>> I wrote “The freedom of assembly has been suspended.” - under corona rules 
>> virtually anywhere now only limited amounts of people are allowed to 
>> assemble, which in effect means that this basic freedom is suspended. Mass 
>> gatherings still happen, as I explained in some length in the piece, but 
>> they are then in violation of these rules.
> 
> 
>> 
>>> 2. What countries r u referring to?
>> 
>> Not any country in particular, but the countries that have or pretend to 
>> have some form of basic ‘democratic’ or civic governance (neoliberal 
>> phantasy or not). Probably we must assume that ‘democratic rights’ are 
>> always under threat / pressure, but with the covid-19 crisis I feel there is 
>> a qualitatively different situation. 
>> 
>>> 3. do u have an issue with a lockdown per se or is this coz u don’t think 
>>> the pandemic necessitates such a thing?
>> 
>> I am writing in the essay about the question of ‘public space’ and the 
>> erosion of ‘publicness’ and ’the public’ not about the politics of the 
>> lockdowns.
>> 
>> My private opinion, which is outside the scope of this essay, is that in 
>> some initial stage of the pandemic the lockdowns were maybe necessary, given 
>> the overburdened care system, but in essence they are counter-productive. 
>> The virus will not go away, it will stay around like the flu and mutate 
>> regularly. Thus any vaccine will need to be updated regularly and we will 
>> have to get it like the flu shot, or even in a cocktail, probably annually.
>> 
>> It is necessary to build up a certain measure of biological resistance in 
>> the general population, but this can only be done in a responsible way by 
>> radically extending the care system to protect vulnerable sections of the 
>> population - and the main argument against that is staggering costs - so the 
>> lockdown has been the preferred option. Problem is once you end it the virus 
>> starts circulating like before again, which is what we now see.
>> 
>> Hoping that a vaccine is the silver bullet is to me exactly that: hope and 
>> as a Russian saying says so beautifully: Hope dies last.
>> 
>>> 4. what specifically doch deem privacy infringing with corona apps as most 
>>> either collect a lotta less data than Facebook or don’t collect any data on 

Re: The Zombie Public – Or, how to revive ‘the public’ and public space after the pandemic.

[lizvlx]

> Hello ‘lizvix’ - don’t know who this is - the ‘Hans’ of Übermorgen?

Ahhh — Are you trying to be rude or are you really not aware that Ubermorgen 
consists not only of one man? I find that quite amusing :D - you are funny man.

So to clear that up, I am lizvlx, the lizvlx of Ubermorgen. 

Why do you use so many words! 
You are hard for me to understand.

Anyway.

Let me rephrase & comment (after all we do want to discuss this right):

1. What do you mean the freedom of assembly has been suspended?
(Not true in Kenya, Nigeria, Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, USA, - I am 
only citing countries that are coming to my mind right now)

2. How can you refer to “no particular” country - that is illogical when you 
are trying to make a point on legal issues which are always decided locally. 
There is a hge amount of democratic countries on this planet, on all 
continents. I am quite perplexed that you seem to think that a nice Eurocentric 
position will explain the Covid rules and changes in let’s say - Taiwan, Uganda 
or Columbia.

3. Thank you for your answer to question 3 - even tho you really use many many 
words, but then, that is a male trait that maybe is to be not to made fun of.
Are you not concerned that your views on public health might come across as 
proto-fascist and medically-naive?

4. Data - as much as I appreciate the academic thought on this - btw I usually 
use a Samsung, which unfortunately just broke down - but there is not A (1) 
corona app, but there are many. And they vary in their technology. But summa 
summarum, most are sharing less data then your average datamining gaming app. 
So from a programmer’s perspective I cannot see anything relevant added to the 
again huge data fields of the 21th century.

Cheers

lizvlx 

Ps: why are you talking about the weather? I don’t understand the relevance to 
your above points. 



>> 1. what do u mean by (mass) gatherings have been suspended? 
> 
> I wrote “The freedom of assembly has been suspended.” - under corona rules 
> virtually anywhere now only limited amounts of people are allowed to 
> assemble, which in effect means that this basic freedom is suspended. Mass 
> gatherings still happen, as I explained in some length in the piece, but they 
> are then in violation of these rules.


> 
>> 2. What countries r u referring to?
> 
> Not any country in particular, but the countries that have or pretend to have 
> some form of basic ‘democratic’ or civic governance (neoliberal phantasy or 
> not). Probably we must assume that ‘democratic rights’ are always under 
> threat / pressure, but with the covid-19 crisis I feel there is a 
> qualitatively different situation. 
> 
>> 3. do u have an issue with a lockdown per se or is this coz u don’t think 
>> the pandemic necessitates such a thing?
> 
> I am writing in the essay about the question of ‘public space’ and the 
> erosion of ‘publicness’ and ’the public’ not about the politics of the 
> lockdowns.
> 
> My private opinion, which is outside the scope of this essay, is that in some 
> initial stage of the pandemic the lockdowns were maybe necessary, given the 
> overburdened care system, but in essence they are counter-productive. The 
> virus will not go away, it will stay around like the flu and mutate 
> regularly. Thus any vaccine will need to be updated regularly and we will 
> have to get it like the flu shot, or even in a cocktail, probably annually.
> 
> It is necessary to build up a certain measure of biological resistance in the 
> general population, but this can only be done in a responsible way by 
> radically extending the care system to protect vulnerable sections of the 
> population - and the main argument against that is staggering costs - so the 
> lockdown has been the preferred option. Problem is once you end it the virus 
> starts circulating like before again, which is what we now see.
> 
> Hoping that a vaccine is the silver bullet is to me exactly that: hope and as 
> a Russian saying says so beautifully: Hope dies last.
> 
>> 4. what specifically doch deem privacy infringing with corona apps as most 
>> either collect a lotta less data than Facebook or don’t collect any data on 
>> a central server? Which app r u referring to?
> 
> That is the misconception I’m trying to address with this text. The app seems 
> not so bad in comparison to all the other data draining techniques from the 
> social media swamp, or simply from mobile / ‘smart’ phone users (i.e. more or 
> less all of us, you replied from an iphone and I use that thing as well - 
> though not for mailing lists..).
> 
> It is the correlation of data from all these apps, the integration into the 
> operating systems as a default, in combination with the radical expansion of 
> somatic sensing technologies built into these mobile / wearable devices that 
> creates an unprecedented level of scrutiny wherever we take these devices, 
> i.e. that thing formerly designated as ‘public space’, but this c

Re: A question in earnest (Max Herman)

[voyd]

Responding to Molly - 
I have been really pressed for time these days, but have enjoyed this 
conversation.
I hope I can give you the view from Arabia.
And I am returning to the USA soon.
Such and interesting perspective time from here.



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Re: A question in earnest (Max Herman)

[d . garcia]

Hi Max et al,

In terms of how things look from here, Biden as a candidate cuts a 
distinctly unimpressive figure. Not only is he the ultimate compromise 
candidate (a political 'weather vane' as Brian Holmes put it) but also 
his age and frailty stands in stark contrast to Trump’s remarkable 
vigour for a 74 year old. Whenever Biden appears, I find myself holding 
my breath hoping he won’t stumble verbally or literally.


But the speech he gave in Pennsylvania on Tuesday was (to my European 
ears) an uncharacteristically
strong performance. It laid out with genuine force and clarity what was 
at stake. And the sad fact is that his strongest card is that; *whatever 
you think of him he is not the worst that can happen to American 
democracy.*


The core of his pitch was to an insistence that this MUST be the moment 
of reckoning on racism in the US (as it must for us in Europe) combined 
with making the horror of Charlottesville the centrepiece of his speech 
by declaring that it was the Charlottesville that made him decide to 
run..


He made clear without equivocation who the enemy are, by painting a 
powerful picture of the very worst "Neo Nazis, white supremacists, and 
the KK coming out of the fields with torches alight, veins bulging. 
Chanting the same anti-Semitic bile heard across Europe in the 30s. It 
was hate on the march. In the open. In America.”


So responding to the question that prompted this thread, from this side 
of the pond this election cannot  achieve the best but it can and MUST 
avoid the worst in the form of another 4 years of Trump.


Those who live in the US should be in no doubt that though diminished 
the US still retains an enormous grip on the global political imaginary. 
And Trump's malign presence squats like a huge toad blocking progress. 
When he goes the relief though short lived will be deep and palpable.



PS

I suspect that 2 things that we tend to miss on this side of the pond is 
1.importance of control of the supreme court in US political life.. and 
2. The power of incumbency for a 1st term president.


1. Agreement over the importance of supreme court appointments is 
perhaps the one remaining thing that unites the warring tribes within 
the main parties. And though Trump's real support in the Republican 
party is thin his perceived success in appointing conservative justices 
to the supreme court could help him hold some of his fraying alliances 
within the party..


2. Those of us not following US politics closely forget just how rare it 
is for a challenger to successfully defeat an incumbent. Trump is the 
45th president and in the 20th century there have been just 4 first term 
presidents ejected from office at the hands of the electorate (William 
Howard Taft, Herbert Hoover, Jimmy Carter, George. H. W. Bush.)
The incumbent has enormous resources at their disposal to dominate the 
news cycle, make eye catching foreign policy interventions and generally 
exploit the optics of the White House and the Rose Garden as backdrop. 
Trump has not been shy of exploiting these advantages to the full and 
beyond! But there are signs that he has overplayed his hand. And that 
Biden’s low key start may have inadvertently been a bit of a 
‘rope-a-dope’ tactic tempting a desperate Trump (with creditors waiting 
their moment) to punch himself out too early.
Moreover occasionally incumbency is a disadvantage. Hoover and Carter 
respectively faced the great depression of the 30s and the great 
recession of the 1970s and it is very likely that Trump would have been 
in a strong position to roundly defeat Biden were it not for Covid. The 
very darkest of dark clouds can have a silver haired lining.


David Garcia


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teaching republic

[János Sugár]

Title: teaching republic


Budapest University of Theatre and Film Arts students have not
only occupied their university, they have now redesigned the
university completely and started new ways of teaching with their
'experimental teaching republic'.

https://networkcultures.org/blog/2020/10/08/the-institute-of-network-cultures-stands-in-solidarity-with-the-budapest-university-of-theatre-and-film-arts/


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