Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[mp]

Indeed, nuclear war is a permanent feature affecting the entire planet:
it's called testing (when it's the military; visualised here, commencing
somewhat calmly, but then picks up pace):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCF7vPanrY ) and chemo therapy (when
it's pharma).

On 14/08/17 11:19, Keith Sanborn wrote:
> Rupture or rapture: limited nuclear war is an oxymoron, no matter who 
> believes it to be meaningful. 
> 
>> On Aug 14, 2017, at 7:29 AM, Morlock Elloi  wrote:
>>
>> Urban populations ... no one will waste nukes on peasants. Peasants and the 
>> ruling class will survive. and
>>
>> Do a search on "luxury shelters" or "doomsday bunkers" - from $1MM to $40MM 
>> a pop. It doesn't matter if they will work or not - what matters is that the 
>> buyers believe they will, and these buyers are the ones making the nuking 
>> decisions.
>>
>> Between the Silicon Valley psychopaths working on personal immortality, 5 
>> megacorps amassing trillions in cash and not spending it, and the top 0.001% 
>> becoming preppers, it's obvious that there is a general belief among the 
>> ruling class that these tumultuous times will end in some kind of rupture, 
>> and they are getting ready. No one likes the times we live in. I don't have 
>> any doubts that those of them loosely identifying as "Americans" will opt 
>> for the nuclear gamble if faced with losing the imperial status. They are 
>> certainly ready to play the nuclear gamble for far less - like losing the 
>> elections.
>>
>>> On 8/13/17, 19:44, Thomas Keenan wrote:
>>> "A limited nuclear war" ... limited to whom?
>>
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Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[Keith Sanborn]

Rupture or rapture: limited nuclear war is an oxymoron, no matter who believes 
it to be meaningful. 

> On Aug 14, 2017, at 7:29 AM, Morlock Elloi  wrote:
> 
> Urban populations ... no one will waste nukes on peasants. Peasants and the 
> ruling class will survive.
> 
> Do a search on "luxury shelters" or "doomsday bunkers" - from $1MM to $40MM a 
> pop. It doesn't matter if they will work or not - what matters is that the 
> buyers believe they will, and these buyers are the ones making the nuking 
> decisions.
> 
> Between the Silicon Valley psychopaths working on personal immortality, 5 
> megacorps amassing trillions in cash and not spending it, and the top 0.001% 
> becoming preppers, it's obvious that there is a general belief among the 
> ruling class that these tumultuous times will end in some kind of rupture, 
> and they are getting ready. No one likes the times we live in. I don't have 
> any doubts that those of them loosely identifying as "Americans" will opt for 
> the nuclear gamble if faced with losing the imperial status. They are 
> certainly ready to play the nuclear gamble for far less - like losing the 
> elections.
> 
>> On 8/13/17, 19:44, Thomas Keenan wrote:
>> "A limited nuclear war" ... limited to whom?
> 
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Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[Morlock Elloi]

Urban populations ... no one will waste nukes on peasants. Peasants and 
the ruling class will survive.


Do a search on "luxury shelters" or "doomsday bunkers" - from $1MM to 
$40MM a pop. It doesn't matter if they will work or not - what matters 
is that the buyers believe they will, and these buyers are the ones 
making the nuking decisions.


Between the Silicon Valley psychopaths working on personal immortality, 
5 megacorps amassing trillions in cash and not spending it, and the top 
0.001% becoming preppers, it's obvious that there is a general belief 
among the ruling class that these tumultuous times will end in some kind 
of rupture, and they are getting ready. No one likes the times we live 
in. I don't have any doubts that those of them loosely identifying as 
"Americans" will opt for the nuclear gamble if faced with losing the 
imperial status. They are certainly ready to play the nuclear gamble for 
far less - like losing the elections.


On 8/13/17, 19:44, Thomas Keenan wrote:

"A limited nuclear war" ... limited to whom?


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Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[Thomas Keenan]

"A limited nuclear war" ... limited to whom?

On Aug 13, 2017 5:21 PM, "Morlock Elloi"  wrote:

The most likely way is a limited nuclear war where most of nuclear weapons
facilities are taken out and global population halved, but that's rather
unappealing.
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Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[Morlock Elloi]

The imperial power transition was never smooth (so far), usually it 
takes few centuries of dark ages. Even if everything these days is 
accelerated 10X, we're still looking at several decades of deep s*it.


The interesting speculation would be: what is the best way for the 
American Empire to fall? The most likely way is a limited nuclear war 
where most of nuclear weapons facilities are taken out and global 
population halved, but that's rather unappealing. Can it fall so that 
Twitter, Google and Facebook survive?


On 8/13/17, 14:05, John Hopkins wrote:

There will be many laws broken in the future by the next Imperial
masters ... and peace, in the face of asymptotically increasing resource
competition will exist as only a dream for another world ...


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Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[John Hopkins]

On 10/Aug/17 06:32, heath bunting wrote:

i support any nation state that attempts to dis-engage from use empire eg
hungary, as the empire is the greatest law breaker and threat to global
peace


But, really, Heath, does the altogether expected and ongoing collapse of the 
Amurikan Empire signal the demise of the concept or actuality of "Empire"? 
Smaller and less materially extensive nation-states only decrease the scale that 
hegemonic and conflictive events occur within (if, indeed it does that, they 
have a habit of causing wider conflagrations).


There is an increasing Void surrounding the collapse, and, guess what, something 
is filling it: China. And they have the population base to extend 
politico-cultural hegemonies at a granular human-to-human level globally in a 
way that is less obsessed with appearances (US) and more with actual changes on 
the ground that more directly benefit the 'Middle Kingdom'. They have unlimited 
funding for the military: (see, for example, the choreography of 
https://t.co/NgMTeTnSup, as a signal of merely 12K of 2 million troops, on a 
remote base: the US could hardly mount such a display, despite the 
'size/strength' of their military)...


The ideology pedalled (and 'enforced'!) by the US is/was not nearly as 
compelling as Confucian State Capitalism!


There will be many laws broken in the future by the next Imperial masters ... 
and peace, in the face of asymptotically increasing resource competition will 
exist as only a dream for another world ...


Where Europe sits in all this whether fragmented or whole will depend on the 
actual ebbs and flows of power between all players at all scales.


JH

--
++
Dr. John Hopkins, BSc, MFA, PhD
hanging on to the Laramide Orogeny
twitter: @neoscenes
http://tech-no-mad.net/blog/
++
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Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[heath bunting]

when falling, the safest place to be is on the ground as soon as possible

a non resistant state of mind will limit the amount of broken bones, but 
there will be some injuries

the eu is already broken in reality ie not a union anymore eg greece, so 
there is no chance to remain


brexit was a diversion organised and run by the tories to take the 
anti-war/ nato/ empire narrative way from corbyn and replace it with
a meaningless distraction - it didn't matter which side won


the real story is the collapse of the usa empire and its desperate 
attempts (nuclear war) to hold on to power


i support any nation state that attempts to dis-engage from use empire eg 
hungary, as the empire is the greatest law breaker and threat to global 
peace



On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, David Garcia wrote:

> So Patrice… shouldn't the anti-democratic neo-liberal structures of the
> EU, that actually forbid radical socialist restructuring and are able
> to enforce these strictures by means of what Varoufakis called “fiscal
> waterboarding” give us some pause for thought?
 <...>

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Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[Patrice Riemens]

David, I think you are entirely right, but I think these are two 
separate issues: Brexitmadegon in the UK and the total dysfunctioning of 
EUrope. Brexit indeed offered an opportunity for hard re-thinking in 
Bruksel, and it has indeed been missed, we're back at business as usual 
which means pushing the bucket further down the road. So EU's going to 
the wall too, just a bit later than UK (or earlier, who knows).


We're going to the dogs, that's for sure - so maybe time to prepare for 
this at our own scale, on both sides of the channel.


Here's a nice perspective, even though it's sustainability is 
questionable in Mad Max times ...


https://zadforever.blog/

Cheers, p+7D!


On 2017-08-10 10:55, David Garcia wrote:

So Patrice… shouldn't the anti-democratic neo-liberal structures of
the EU, that actually forbid radical
socialist restructuring and are able to enforce these strictures by
means of what Varoufakis called
“fiscal waterboarding” give us some pause for thought?

This leftist scepticism on the constraints that belonging to the EU
club puts on the possibility for implementing
radical socialist (or even social democratic) agendas might help to
explain Corbyn’s lack luster campaign to Remain
(however he tries to spin it). To Corbyn supporters on the list I
would argue that the reason (despite all the protestations)
we know it was lack-luster is because it is now clear what a great
national campaigner he is when his heart is in it.

This puts many Corbyn supporters who are also committed Europeans in a
bind. We saw Franco Barardi’s
anger expressed in his withdrawl from Diem in response to the pitiful
response of the EU to the terrible migration crisis. But retreating
behind socialist versions of nationalist silos or premature
internationalist dreams, are no answer to either the human emergency
of mass migration or the EU’s institutions structural democratic 
deficit.


The UK’s imminent social, generational and economic pain that is
already accompanying Brexit.. will give other members of the club fair
warning of what is at stake when we teare the house down with only a
rickety tent made of abstract nouns (sovereinty and control) to move
into.

Probably the warning that our local plight will send will be good rest
of Europe. But for us living in the UK..not so much. My fear is that
the lesson the EU will learn will be to run back to Mutti and Macron’s
status quo. Seriously that is the wrong lesson..


On 10 Aug 2017, at 08:50, Patrice Riemens  wrote:

That's a point of view. But unfortunately Hungary doesn't provide as 
much comic relief as the Disunited Kingdom, it's totally deflated PM, 
it's rightwingers going at each other's throats, and the whole country 
generally slowly descending in the social and economic meltdown that 
the unavoidable 'Hard Brexit' promises to deliver. Never ming the 
howls of laughter in the Brussels Commission corridors at the 
perspective of lengthily torturing that political entity that made 
them suffer for so long. De Gaulle was right about the UK 'elite', and 
he must enjoy the spectacle from his heavenly abode ...



On 2017-08-09 12:06, heath bunting wrote:

nothing compared to uk
On Wed, 2 Aug 2017, János Sugár wrote:

Is Hungary the EU's first rogue state?
http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/08/hungary-eus-first-rogue-state-viktor-orban-and-long-march-freedom
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Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[David Garcia]

So Patrice… shouldn't the anti-democratic neo-liberal structures of the EU, 
that actually forbid radical 
socialist restructuring and are able to enforce these strictures by means of 
what Varoufakis called 
“fiscal waterboarding” give us some pause for thought? 

This leftist scepticism on the constraints that belonging to the EU club puts 
on the possibility for implementing 
radical socialist (or even social democratic) agendas might help to explain 
Corbyn’s lack luster campaign to Remain 
(however he tries to spin it). To Corbyn supporters on the list I would argue 
that the reason (despite all the protestations) 
we know it was lack-luster is because it is now clear what a great national 
campaigner he is when his heart is in it. 

This puts many Corbyn supporters who are also committed Europeans in a bind. We 
saw Franco Barardi’s 
anger expressed in his withdrawl from Diem in response to the pitiful response 
of the EU to the terrible migration crisis. But retreating 
behind socialist versions of nationalist silos or premature internationalist 
dreams, are no answer to either the human emergency 
of mass migration or the EU’s institutions structural democratic deficit.   

The UK’s imminent social, generational and economic pain that is already 
accompanying Brexit.. will give other members of the club fair 
warning of what is at stake when we teare the house down with only a rickety 
tent made of abstract nouns (sovereinty and control) to move into. 

Probably the warning that our local plight will send will be good rest of 
Europe. But for us living in the UK..not so much. My fear is that
the lesson the EU will learn will be to run back to Mutti and Macron’s status 
quo. Seriously that is the wrong lesson..


On 10 Aug 2017, at 08:50, Patrice Riemens  wrote:

> That's a point of view. But unfortunately Hungary doesn't provide as much 
> comic relief as the Disunited Kingdom, it's totally deflated PM, it's 
> rightwingers going at each other's throats, and the whole country generally 
> slowly descending in the social and economic meltdown that the unavoidable 
> 'Hard Brexit' promises to deliver. Never ming the howls of laughter in the 
> Brussels Commission corridors at the perspective of lengthily torturing that 
> political entity that made them suffer for so long. De Gaulle was right about 
> the UK 'elite', and he must enjoy the spectacle from his heavenly abode ...
> 
> 
> On 2017-08-09 12:06, heath bunting wrote:
>> nothing compared to uk
>> On Wed, 2 Aug 2017, János Sugár wrote:
>>> Is Hungary the EU's first rogue state?
>>> http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/08/hungary-eus-first-rogue-state-viktor-orban-and-long-march-freedom
>>> __
>>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
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Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[Patrice Riemens]

That's a point of view. But unfortunately Hungary doesn't provide as 
much comic relief as the Disunited Kingdom, it's totally deflated PM, 
it's rightwingers going at each other's throats, and the whole country 
generally slowly descending in the social and economic meltdown that the 
unavoidable 'Hard Brexit' promises to deliver. Never ming the howls of 
laughter in the Brussels Commission corridors at the perspective of 
lengthily torturing that political entity that made them suffer for so 
long. De Gaulle was right about the UK 'elite', and he must enjoy the 
spectacle from his heavenly abode ...



On 2017-08-09 12:06, heath bunting wrote:

nothing compared to uk


On Wed, 2 Aug 2017, János Sugár wrote:


Is Hungary the EU's first rogue state?

http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/08/hungary-eus-first-rogue-state-viktor-orban-and-long-march-freedom
__
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Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state

[heath bunting]

nothing compared to uk


On Wed, 2 Aug 2017, János Sugár wrote:

>Is Hungary the EU's first rogue state?
>
>http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/08/hungary-eus-first-rogue-state-viktor-orban-and-long-march-freedom
>__
>SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
>Info, archive and help:
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