Re: Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook!e
This is precisely what I have been arguing and what I present as a plausible alternative thinking to my students - platform cooperatives which Trebir Schulz has been working on for instance - but that what we need - is mainly some kind of non proprietary social networking --because the underlying business model of FB is corporate sprawl on networks and because the benefits of social networking over "pure" DOS interface or other paired back attempts to get around "multimedia" or as statements in bandwidth-use or as rebellions simply overlook what social networking has to offer - namely different modes of expression, audio/video, chat lines etc --so they aren't really solutions, just less satisfying alternatives - Because you cannot show as much - share as much --yet the sharing economy of FB for instance supports the sprawl...so what to do? Obviously there needs to be stiff regulation imposed on data mining practices, like the virtual fracking monsters they are - and this imposition of regulation - which would be great if user generated - but maybe that's what crypto is...would set real limits to the amounts of capitalization possible on our data...regulate the gross exploitation AND surveillance of data! Molly > On Mar 22, 2016, at 11:13 AM, Florian Cramer wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:51 AM, carlo von lynX >wrote: > > I think we need distributed social networking, with nodes that act > like a Facebook on your own device but only interact through a network > of agnostic relays, Tor style, with zero external authorities. Not even > "trusted" people running some pods or other overinformed server nodes. > That's what I'm working on since 2010. > > Yet these alternative visions of social networking don't necessarily > solve the issue of data mining, unless they're based on strong > cryptography and cryptographic webs of trust that strictly limit the > readability of content to one's selected peers. <...> # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook!
On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:51 AM, carlo von lynX > I think we need distributed social networking, with nodes that act > > like a Facebook on your own device but only interact through a network > > of agnostic relays, Tor style, with zero external authorities. Not even > > "trusted" people running some pods or other overinformed server nodes. > > That's what I'm working on since 2010. On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 07:13:20PM +0100, Florian Cramer wrote: > Yet these alternative visions of social networking don't necessarily solve > the issue of data mining, unless they're based on strong cryptography and > cryptographic webs of trust that strictly limit the readability of content > to one's selected peers. Of course I was speaking of doing it crypto all over.. and the readability is limited to the selected chunk of social graph that is allowed to subscribe to certain channels. So data mining is only available to the legitimate recipients of those channels - in other words, regular human treason / infiltration of groups by social engineering is still possible, but no bulk surveillance & analysis. > Many critics and activists glorify the pre-Facebook times of individual > homepages and blogs. However, these systems can even be better data-mined > by third parties than proprietary social networks, especially given today's > refinement of web technology (with its refined social interaction designs, > meta data architectures, geolocation APIs etc.). Yes. Somewhere I wrote a piece on how the Internet was never free and we need to create it first. > But even a mailing list like Nettime is fully open data for everyone, > except for the list of subscribers. It is fully xkeyscore most of all. Just as all email and all websites with email notification such as bug trackers... -- E-mail is public! Talk to me in private using encryption: http://loupsycedyglgamf.onion/LynX/ irc://loupsycedyglgamf.onion:67/lynX https://psyced.org:34443/LynX/ # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook!
On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:51 AM, carlo von lynX wrote: I think we need distributed social networking, with nodes that act like a Facebook on your own device but only interact through a network of agnostic relays, Tor style, with zero external authorities. Not even "trusted" people running some pods or other overinformed server nodes. That's what I'm working on since 2010. Yet these alternative visions of social networking don't necessarily solve the issue of data mining, unless they're based on strong cryptography and cryptographic webs of trust that strictly limit the readability of content to one's selected peers. Many critics and activists glorify the pre-Facebook times of individual homepages and blogs. However, these systems can even be better data-mined by third parties than proprietary social networks, especially given today's refinement of web technology (with its refined social interaction designs, meta data architectures, geolocation APIs etc.). But even a mailing list like Nettime is fully open data for everyone, except for the list of subscribers. -F # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook!
It is hard on Android and very hard on iOS to have a handset receive unsolicited messages, which is the only way to avoid centralized servers, even the rendezvous-only ones. This is by design. Tor is not the solution because the number of exit nodes is many orders of magnitude lower than the number of popular social operator users, so it is effectively centralized. The solution is not going to be along the lines of some privacy-loving entity setting up a privacy-loving servers and distributing privacy-loving apps - that's the dead end, as we have seen. It is harder - what is needed is ubiquitous serverless p2p connectivity between consumer devices. Very hard (if you think getting out decent crypto is hard, you haven't seen hard.) But it's the only viable direction which is not a total waste of time and a temporary distraction. This is not a new concept - it has already been mentioned that public needs to own and operate the basic infrastructure. The main obstacle is that the current dead-end infrastructure acts as a perfect honeypot and sinks millions of developer-hours. Maybe the way to start dealing with this problem is to tell anyone who designs a new server-assisted app to fuck off. The real solution, as usual, is ideological, and the technology will follow. This is a huge amount of work, uphill and against the wind, and there is no way around it. I think we need distributed social networking, with nodes that act like a Facebook on your own device but only interact through a network of agnostic relays, Tor style, with zero external authorities. Not even "trusted" people running some pods or other overinformed server nodes. That's what I'm working on since 2010. Before that I tried decentralization and federation, but realized that it was a dead-end street. I wished everyone had learned that lesson as me, instead many still preach decentralization and federation. Probably also some lobbyists, since it is the best way to ensure that Facebook and Google aren't challenged at all. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook!
On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 07:44:03PM -0700, morlockel...@yahoo.com wrote: > Open or closed software doesn't make much difference, it's all about > data. An operator cannot 'open' data (like in letting everyone know > what the data and its derivatives are) without factoring itself out > of the business. On the other hand, there are (yet) no signs that > consumers will stop feeding operators data in exchange for convenience > and simulated intimacy. That is precisely it. As long as people are put in a position to access other people's data we have a structural problem that can corrupt our basic freedoms that may even not be important to us as individuals but spell an end to democracy by dilution of its constitution. See also the power of Google and Facebook to influence the vote of 20-40% of the population in most countries and the conclusions Assange describes in recent talks. He says we only have a few years to fix this, then it may be too late to get democracy back. I think we need distributed social networking, with nodes that act like a Facebook on your own device but only interact through a network of agnostic relays, Tor style, with zero external authorities. Not even "trusted" people running some pods or other overinformed server nodes. That's what I'm working on since 2010. Before that I tried decentralization and federation, but realized that it was a dead-end street. I wished everyone had learned that lesson as me, instead many still preach decentralization and federation. Probably also some lobbyists, since it is the best way to ensure that Facebook and Google aren't challenged at all. > The situation is somewhat similar to smoking - bad stuff comes > after decades, if ever. Perhaps repurposed ads from anti-smoking > campaigns may help. Each handset should be labeled in bold type with > slogans like "Using this device can damage your employment and health > insurance prospects", "Data transferred with this device can turn you > into a prosecutable criminal in less than 5 years", "Usage of this > phone can raise your mortgage interest" etc. As a legislative measure? First politics should foster the creation of a free social networking alternative, then it can simply require its use by law. After all Facebook and Google are infringing the most basic requirements of most democratic constitutions. Offering basic communication tools over a web of cloudy servers must simply not be legal. Only anonymized end-to-end encrypted communication satisifies the requirements of democracy. The mere potential that a government agency could access *all* communication data rather than that of a few specific suspect individuals is a breach in the basic contract of democracy. It's not even legal to say "we're not doing it". The fact that it requires us to trust them is anti-constitutional. The way the judiciary is unable to check on it makes the checks and balances aka separation of powers fall apart. > >I realize that this is a short interview, but I almost wish Stallman > >hadn't mentioned free software (his particular obsession, obviously, > >and a reasonable one), which could overshadow some much more basic > >concerns with FB. Using proprietary software is one thing--maybe > >it's inherently evil, maybe not--and collecting data on people's > >every movement is another. It's conceivable, just slightly, that > >Facebook could open-source all their software and not change their > >behavior a bit. Yes, even if Facebook was entirely subscribing to Affero GPL would not guarantee that government isn't forcing them to breach AGPL in order to provide full database access to the five friends while at the same time vehemently proclaim the contrary in public. Given the legal situation in the US that Apple vs FBI story looks like a PR stunt with both sides winning. Of course Facebook would support that. Wait, they don't even need to breach AGPL when adding some extra NSA administration account to the databases... free software is a precondition for liberty, but totally insufficient by itself. -- E-mail is public! Talk to me in private using encryption: http://loupsycedyglgamf.onion/LynX/ irc://loupsycedyglgamf.onion:67/lynX https://psyced.org:34443/LynX/ # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook!
Den 20-03-2016 kl. 11:43 skrev Patrice Riemens: original to: http://sivertimes.com/richard-stallman-wants-to-destroy-facebook-to-protect-privacy/17274 original interview in Le Devoir (Montreal) (in French): http://www.ledevoir.com/societe/actualites-en-societe/465389/eradiquer-facebook-pour-sauver-la-democratie Off-topic, it's strange to see as slick-looking a web site as silvertimes.com apparently use Google Translate to get articles from French; rendering their text barely legible compared with the original. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook!
Open or closed software doesn't make much difference, it's all about data. An operator cannot 'open' data (like in letting everyone know what the data and its derivatives are) without factoring itself out of the business. On the other hand, there are (yet) no signs that consumers will stop feeding operators data in exchange for convenience and simulated intimacy. The situation is somewhat similar to smoking - bad stuff comes after decades, if ever. Perhaps repurposed ads from anti-smoking campaigns may help. Each handset should be labeled in bold type with slogans like "Using this device can damage your employment and health insurance prospects", "Data transferred with this device can turn you into a prosecutable criminal in less than 5 years", "Usage of this phone can raise your mortgage interest" etc. I realize that this is a short interview, but I almost wish Stallman hadn't mentioned free software (his particular obsession, obviously, and a reasonable one), which could overshadow some much more basic concerns with FB. Using proprietary software is one thing--maybe it's inherently evil, maybe not--and collecting data on people's every movement is another. It's conceivable, just slightly, that Facebook could open-source all their software and not change their behavior a bit. If someone really wants to smother you, they can probably smother you with # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook! And as to apple case
As to the Apple case, haven't people always been able to write messages in cypher or just whisper them without government having any right to force someone else to decode or to listen in? Does the fact that now enciphering is a commercial service change that fundamentally? Patrice writes: it is interesting to note that Facebook is one of the companies that have publicly supported Apple in the case against the FBI seeking access to encrypted data of iPhone. Facebook has also signed a motion in court. Best, Michael via iPhone, so please ecuse misteaks. > On Mar 20, 2016, at 3:43 AM, Patrice Riemens wrote: > > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook!
Open or closed software doesn't make much difference, it's all about data. An operator cannot 'open' data (like in letting everyone know what the data and its derivatives are) without factoring itself out of the business. On the other hand, there are (yet) no signs that consumers will stop feeding operators data in exchange for convenience and simulated intimacy. The situation is somewhat similar to smoking - bad stuff comes after decades, if ever. Perhaps repurposed ads from anti-smoking campaigns may help. Each handset should be labeled in bold type with slogans like "Using this device can damage your employment and health insurance prospects", "Data transferred with this device can turn you into a prosecutable criminal in less than 5 years", "Usage of this phone can raise your mortgage interest" etc. I realize that this is a short interview, but I almost wish Stallman hadn't mentioned free software (his particular obsession, obviously, and a reasonable one), which could overshadow some much more basic concerns with FB. Using proprietary software is one thing--maybe it's inherently evil, maybe not--and collecting data on people's every movement is another. It's conceivable, just slightly, that Facebook could open-source all their software and not change their behavior a bit. If someone really wants to smother you, they can probably smother you with # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook!
> On Mar 20, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Patrice Riemens wrote: > > For Stallman, proprietary software is a fundamental obstacle to > freedom since the editor is able to decide the content, functionality, > impose censorship or deploy at will update. I realize that this is a short interview, but I almost wish Stallman hadn't mentioned free software (his particular obsession, obviously, and a reasonable one), which could overshadow some much more basic concerns with FB. Using proprietary software is one thing--maybe it's inherently evil, maybe not--and collecting data on people's every movement is another. It's conceivable, just slightly, that Facebook could open-source all their software and not change their behavior a bit. If someone really wants to smother you, they can probably smother you with a cute photo of a kitten. --Dave. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Richard Stallman: Eradicate Facebook!
original to: http://sivertimes.com/richard-stallman-wants-to-destroy-facebook-to-protect-privacy/17274 original interview in Le Devoir (Montreal) (in French): http://www.ledevoir.com/societe/actualites-en-societe/465389/eradiquer-facebook-pour-sauver-la-democratie Richard Stallman wants to destroy Facebook to protect privacy sivertime | March 16, 2016 | Techno | Is Facebook the sworn enemy of democracy and privacy? In any case think that Richard Stallman, father of the free software that calls for a boycott. Passage in Quebec, Richard Stallman gave a speech at Laval University on digital freedoms, and of course, free software. The man behind the GPL and dream of a world in which proprietary software – which he calls “privateurs” – simply do not exist anymore. The man believes the network of Mark Zuckerberg is a fundamental obstacle to privacy. In an interview collected by Le Devoir, he says : “We must eliminate Facebook to protect privacy.” He added that Facebook “much more uses its users that its users do not use it (…) It is a perfectly calculated service to retrieve and collect a lot of data on people’s lives.” For Stallman, proprietary software is a fundamental obstacle to freedom since the editor is able to decide the content, functionality, impose censorship or deploy at will update. For Facebook, the data collected – with the consent of the internet – obviously used to provide a more effective targeted advertising. In parallel of Mr. Stallman, it is interesting to note that Facebook is one of the companies that have publicly supported Apple in the case against the FBI seeking access to encrypted data of iPhone. Facebook has also signed a motion in court. Marketing real concern strategy? Anyway, the giant community has also set up a specific URL only accessible from browsers provided with an extension providing support Tor and facilitated communications PGP encrypted with the help of protonmail. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
