Re: your response

[Frédéric Neyrat]

oh, sorry Liz, I misunderstood your email, I apologize!
Have a nice Sunday,
My best,
Frédéric
__



On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:26 AM lizvlx  wrote:

> Hi :)
>
>
> alas, Lizvlx, the usa cannot "implodes on itself" without exploding,
> one should be careful sometimes with our temptations, especially when
> national implosions and explosions might kill people who are not fascists
> but precisely the ones who do not want fascism and suffer from it
>
>
> That was a joke - sorry if that was unclear. It is an impossible vision
> that if only sounds good as an idea but of course does not work in reality.
> So you can be assured, we don’t need to discuss this and are totally on
> one page on this :)
>
>
> *abolition*, *destituent power*, etc. not implosion or explosion: we need
> to think in political terms
>
>
> Unless we joke of course ;)
>
>
> DT and it fundamentalistes care about international politics, see their
> relation with Israel: btw, do you think it helps Palestinians?
> actually DT's actions and non-actions create conflicts, climate refugees,
> etc etc etc
> and think about the licence to exploit oil in Arctic National Wildlife
> Refuge: Alaska is in the world, it also concerns you in Austria: if the
> world burns or implodes, you implode too, you're not apart from it
>
> anyway, the idea that DT is someone who will cause "less damage" than
> other presidents at the international level is wrong, so totally wrong
>
>
> That was not my point. I said one can construct a silver lining as he is
> less interested in international politics than your standard American prez.
> But as others have pointed out, all the shits he does (climate, UN, any
> international treaty, diplomacy, etc) is just horrid.
>
> Thats why is said - there really is no grounds to discuss between trump
> and Biden.
>
> love
> liz
>
>
> Best,
>
> F
>
>
> __
> 
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM lizvlx  wrote:
>
>> ….as much as Trump is partially and locally better than other Prez as he
>> just does not care about international politics unless he gets to talk to
>> other dictators, and hence will cause less damage than other Prez in the
>> likes of Syria and generally the Middle East — he still can just kick of
>> major crisis and nuclear war in a jiffy and we can trust him to make that
>> happen.
>>
>> So basically, his only silver lining is being disinterested in overseas
>> conflicts.
>>
>> hurray. (Read this with a monotone voice)
>>
>> So what are we discussing here?
>>
>> Well of course oil does not extinguish fire and trump is a racist fascist
>> dictator-to-be that is not an option for anybody to vote for unless oneself
>> is a fascist racist oh forgot sexist ableist.
>>
>> The idea of voting for trump so the Usa implodes on itself faster is
>> tempting tho.
>>
>> Liz
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 10.10.2020, at 11:00, Keith Sanborn  wrote:
>> >
>> > It’s true. The US Presidents have made violence their major export. And
>> Biden was a witness to Obama’s drone strike kill lists. But this does not
>> make Biden worse than Trump. Trump has amplified violence and directed it
>> towards an internal target. As Stalin used to call it, the enemy within.
>> Here he uses both state forces and paramilitaries like any 3rd World
>> dictator. He has also maintained levels of external violence, for example
>> by strengthening military and diplomatic support for Israeli
>> genocide—besides encouraging slow violence, supporting Palestinian
>> starvation through sub-humanitarian minimums—economic sanctions against
>> Iran and the list goes on. He has refused to pay the WHO He has taken the
>> us out of the Paris climate agreement— What greater violence to the entire
>> world cd there be? He promotes fossil fuels, actively lowers regulations
>> and enforcement critical to environmental survival. He allowed covid to
>> kill over 200,000 people in the us alone, promotes fake medical advice by
>> which he financially profits.  He refuses to support international efforts
>> against covid. Trump is already worse both externally and internally than
>> Biden cd possibly be. And Trump listens to no one except maybe Putin. Biden
>> wd be forced into more public accountability. With Trump there is not even
>> the pretense. He is undoubtedly the worst, most destructive President in
>> the history of the us. But, by all means, hold onto those leninist
>> fantasies that strengthening the worst aspects of capitalism will lead
>> inevitably to its salutary self-destruction, which, btw will be the
>> self-immolation of the planet.
>> >
>> >> On Oct 10, 2020, at 4:13 AM, Zak McGregor 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 12:30:03 -0400
>> >> Keith Sanborn  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I wd like to know why you think Biden is worse. A Biden regime wd at
>> least repress the growing fascist militias here. Perhaps news didn’t reach
>> you about the plot to kidnap and try (implicitly 

Re: your response

[lizvlx]

Hi :)


> alas, Lizvlx, the usa cannot "implodes on itself" without exploding, 
> one should be careful sometimes with our temptations, especially when 
> national implosions and explosions might kill people who are not fascists but 
> precisely the ones who do not want fascism and suffer from it

That was a joke - sorry if that was unclear. It is an impossible vision that if 
only sounds good as an idea but of course does not work in reality. 
So you can be assured, we don’t need to discuss this and are totally on one 
page on this :)

> 
> abolition, destituent power, etc. not implosion or explosion: we need to 
> think in political terms

Unless we joke of course ;)

> 
> DT and it fundamentalistes care about international politics, see their 
> relation with Israel: btw, do you think it helps Palestinians? 
> actually DT's actions and non-actions create conflicts, climate refugees, etc 
> etc etc
> and think about the licence to exploit oil in Arctic National Wildlife 
> Refuge: Alaska is in the world, it also concerns you in Austria: if the world 
> burns or implodes, you implode too, you're not apart from it
> 
> anyway, the idea that DT is someone who will cause "less damage" than other 
> presidents at the international level is wrong, so totally wrong

That was not my point. I said one can construct a silver lining as he is less 
interested in international politics than your standard American prez. But as 
others have pointed out, all the shits he does (climate, UN, any international 
treaty, diplomacy, etc) is just horrid.

Thats why is said - there really is no grounds to discuss between trump and 
Biden.

love
liz

> 
> Best,
> 
> F
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM lizvlx  > wrote:
> ….as much as Trump is partially and locally better than other Prez as he just 
> does not care about international politics unless he gets to talk to other 
> dictators, and hence will cause less damage than other Prez in the likes of 
> Syria and generally the Middle East — he still can just kick of major crisis 
> and nuclear war in a jiffy and we can trust him to make that happen.
> 
> So basically, his only silver lining is being disinterested in overseas 
> conflicts.
> 
> hurray. (Read this with a monotone voice)
> 
> So what are we discussing here?
> 
> Well of course oil does not extinguish fire and trump is a racist fascist 
> dictator-to-be that is not an option for anybody to vote for unless oneself 
> is a fascist racist oh forgot sexist ableist. 
> 
> The idea of voting for trump so the Usa implodes on itself faster is tempting 
> tho. 
> 
> Liz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On 10.10.2020, at 11:00, Keith Sanborn  > > wrote:
> > 
> > It’s true. The US Presidents have made violence their major export. And 
> > Biden was a witness to Obama’s drone strike kill lists. But this does not 
> > make Biden worse than Trump. Trump has amplified violence and directed it 
> > towards an internal target. As Stalin used to call it, the enemy within. 
> > Here he uses both state forces and paramilitaries like any 3rd World 
> > dictator. He has also maintained levels of external violence, for example 
> > by strengthening military and diplomatic support for Israeli 
> > genocide—besides encouraging slow violence, supporting Palestinian  
> > starvation through sub-humanitarian minimums—economic sanctions against 
> > Iran and the list goes on. He has refused to pay the WHO He has taken the 
> > us out of the Paris climate agreement— What greater violence to the entire 
> > world cd there be? He promotes fossil fuels, actively lowers regulations 
> > and enforcement critical to environmental survival. He allowed covid to 
> > kill over 200,000 people in the us alone, promotes fake medical advice by 
> > which he financially profits.  He refuses to support international efforts 
> > against covid. Trump is already worse both externally and internally than 
> > Biden cd possibly be. And Trump listens to no one except maybe Putin. Biden 
> > wd be forced into more public accountability. With Trump there is not even 
> > the pretense. He is undoubtedly the worst, most destructive President in 
> > the history of the us. But, by all means, hold onto those leninist 
> > fantasies that strengthening the worst aspects of capitalism will lead 
> > inevitably to its salutary self-destruction, which, btw will be the 
> > self-immolation of the planet. 
> > 
> >> On Oct 10, 2020, at 4:13 AM, Zak McGregor  >> > wrote:
> >> 
> >> On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 12:30:03 -0400
> >> Keith Sanborn mailto:mrz...@panix.com>> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I wd like to know why you think Biden is worse. A Biden regime wd at 
> >>> least repress the growing fascist militias here. Perhaps news didn’t 
> >>> reach you about the plot to kidnap and try (implicitly then execute for 
> >>> treason) the female Democratic  governor of 

Re: your response

[Frédéric Neyrat]

alas, Lizvlx, the usa cannot "implodes on itself" without exploding,
one should be careful sometimes with our temptations, especially when
national implosions and explosions might kill people who are not fascists
but precisely the ones who do not want fascism and suffer from it

*abolition*, *destituent power*, etc. not implosion or explosion: we need
to think in political terms

DT and it fundamentalistes care about international politics, see their
relation with Israel: btw, do you think it helps Palestinians?
actually DT's actions and non-actions create conflicts, climate refugees,
etc etc etc
and think about the licence to exploit oil in Arctic National Wildlife
Refuge: Alaska is in the world, it also concerns you in Austria: if the
world burns or implodes, you implode too, you're not apart from it

anyway, the idea that DT is someone who will cause "less damage" than
other presidents at the international level is wrong, so totally wrong

Best,

F


__


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM lizvlx  wrote:

> ….as much as Trump is partially and locally better than other Prez as he
> just does not care about international politics unless he gets to talk to
> other dictators, and hence will cause less damage than other Prez in the
> likes of Syria and generally the Middle East — he still can just kick of
> major crisis and nuclear war in a jiffy and we can trust him to make that
> happen.
>
> So basically, his only silver lining is being disinterested in overseas
> conflicts.
>
> hurray. (Read this with a monotone voice)
>
> So what are we discussing here?
>
> Well of course oil does not extinguish fire and trump is a racist fascist
> dictator-to-be that is not an option for anybody to vote for unless oneself
> is a fascist racist oh forgot sexist ableist.
>
> The idea of voting for trump so the Usa implodes on itself faster is
> tempting tho.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> > On 10.10.2020, at 11:00, Keith Sanborn  wrote:
> >
> > It’s true. The US Presidents have made violence their major export. And
> Biden was a witness to Obama’s drone strike kill lists. But this does not
> make Biden worse than Trump. Trump has amplified violence and directed it
> towards an internal target. As Stalin used to call it, the enemy within.
> Here he uses both state forces and paramilitaries like any 3rd World
> dictator. He has also maintained levels of external violence, for example
> by strengthening military and diplomatic support for Israeli
> genocide—besides encouraging slow violence, supporting Palestinian
> starvation through sub-humanitarian minimums—economic sanctions against
> Iran and the list goes on. He has refused to pay the WHO He has taken the
> us out of the Paris climate agreement— What greater violence to the entire
> world cd there be? He promotes fossil fuels, actively lowers regulations
> and enforcement critical to environmental survival. He allowed covid to
> kill over 200,000 people in the us alone, promotes fake medical advice by
> which he financially profits.  He refuses to support international efforts
> against covid. Trump is already worse both externally and internally than
> Biden cd possibly be. And Trump listens to no one except maybe Putin. Biden
> wd be forced into more public accountability. With Trump there is not even
> the pretense. He is undoubtedly the worst, most destructive President in
> the history of the us. But, by all means, hold onto those leninist
> fantasies that strengthening the worst aspects of capitalism will lead
> inevitably to its salutary self-destruction, which, btw will be the
> self-immolation of the planet.
> >
> >> On Oct 10, 2020, at 4:13 AM, Zak McGregor 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 12:30:03 -0400
> >> Keith Sanborn  wrote:
> >>
> >>> I wd like to know why you think Biden is worse. A Biden regime wd at
> least repress the growing fascist militias here. Perhaps news didn’t reach
> you about the plot to kidnap and try (implicitly then execute for treason)
> the female Democratic  governor of Michigan foiled by the FBI. Her crime
> was making people wear face masks by executive order The Supreme Court of
> that Republican-dominated state struck down that lapse into sanity. Trump
> has encouraged these groups.
> >>
> >> This is nothing compared to what violence is meted out by the US,
> directly or indirectly - against people around the world. Both Republican
> and Democrat parties traditionally support these acts. Obama, for instance,
> destroyed Libya and attempted to destroy Syria. He only half succeeded.
> From outside the USA, there is zero difference between any of the 44
> presidents (you call Trump 45, but he's only the 44th different person to
> hold that office, I think).
> >>
> >>> I don’t want to live with the daily levels of violence reported in the
> media and by friends in South Africa. Your situation is a bit different I
> think. But, perhaps those levels of violence are exaggerated. In that
> 

Re: your response

[lizvlx]

….as much as Trump is partially and locally better than other Prez as he just 
does not care about international politics unless he gets to talk to other 
dictators, and hence will cause less damage than other Prez in the likes of 
Syria and generally the Middle East — he still can just kick of major crisis 
and nuclear war in a jiffy and we can trust him to make that happen.

So basically, his only silver lining is being disinterested in overseas 
conflicts.

hurray. (Read this with a monotone voice)

So what are we discussing here?

Well of course oil does not extinguish fire and trump is a racist fascist 
dictator-to-be that is not an option for anybody to vote for unless oneself is 
a fascist racist oh forgot sexist ableist. 

The idea of voting for trump so the Usa implodes on itself faster is tempting 
tho. 

Liz




> On 10.10.2020, at 11:00, Keith Sanborn  wrote:
> 
> It’s true. The US Presidents have made violence their major export. And Biden 
> was a witness to Obama’s drone strike kill lists. But this does not make 
> Biden worse than Trump. Trump has amplified violence and directed it towards 
> an internal target. As Stalin used to call it, the enemy within. Here he uses 
> both state forces and paramilitaries like any 3rd World dictator. He has also 
> maintained levels of external violence, for example by strengthening military 
> and diplomatic support for Israeli genocide—besides encouraging slow 
> violence, supporting Palestinian  starvation through sub-humanitarian 
> minimums—economic sanctions against Iran and the list goes on. He has refused 
> to pay the WHO He has taken the us out of the Paris climate agreement— What 
> greater violence to the entire world cd there be? He promotes fossil fuels, 
> actively lowers regulations and enforcement critical to environmental 
> survival. He allowed covid to kill over 200,000 people in the us alone, 
> promotes fake medical advice by which he financially profits.  He refuses to 
> support international efforts against covid. Trump is already worse both 
> externally and internally than Biden cd possibly be. And Trump listens to no 
> one except maybe Putin. Biden wd be forced into more public accountability. 
> With Trump there is not even the pretense. He is undoubtedly the worst, most 
> destructive President in the history of the us. But, by all means, hold onto 
> those leninist fantasies that strengthening the worst aspects of capitalism 
> will lead inevitably to its salutary self-destruction, which, btw will be the 
> self-immolation of the planet. 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2020, at 4:13 AM, Zak McGregor  wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 12:30:03 -0400
>> Keith Sanborn  wrote:
>> 
>>> I wd like to know why you think Biden is worse. A Biden regime wd at least 
>>> repress the growing fascist militias here. Perhaps news didn’t reach you 
>>> about the plot to kidnap and try (implicitly then execute for treason) the 
>>> female Democratic  governor of Michigan foiled by the FBI. Her crime was 
>>> making people wear face masks by executive order The Supreme Court of that 
>>> Republican-dominated state struck down that lapse into sanity. Trump has 
>>> encouraged these groups.
>> 
>> This is nothing compared to what violence is meted out by the US, directly 
>> or indirectly - against people around the world. Both Republican and 
>> Democrat parties traditionally support these acts. Obama, for instance, 
>> destroyed Libya and attempted to destroy Syria. He only half succeeded. From 
>> outside the USA, there is zero difference between any of the 44 presidents 
>> (you call Trump 45, but he's only the 44th different person to hold that 
>> office, I think).
>> 
>>> I don’t want to live with the daily levels of violence reported in the 
>>> media and by friends in South Africa. Your situation is a bit different I 
>>> think. But, perhaps those levels of violence are exaggerated. In that 
>>> situation I might think differently. 
>> 
>> Yours is a violent system. It's always been so, and you always vote to 
>> continue that.
>> 
>> Ciao
>> 
>> Zak
>> 
>> -- 
>> Zak McGregor 
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Re: your response

[Keith Sanborn]

I’m sure your workers’ paradise will make you happy. At least in your mind. 
That’s the only place it will ever exist, since you are doing anything about 
the corrupt regime in which you live.

> On Oct 10, 2020, at 5:08 AM, Zak McGregor  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 05:00:45 -0400
> Keith Sanborn mailto:mrz...@panix.com>> wrote:
> 
>> It’s true. The US Presidents have made violence their major export. And 
>> Biden was a witness to Obama’s drone strike kill lists. But this does not 
>> make Biden worse than Trump. Trump has amplified violence and directed it 
>> towards an internal target. As Stalin used to call it, the enemy within. 
>> Here he uses both state forces and paramilitaries like any 3rd World 
>> dictator. He has also maintained levels of external violence, for example by 
>> strengthening military and diplomatic support for Israeli genocide—besides 
>> encouraging slow violence, supporting Palestinian  starvation through 
>> sub-humanitarian minimums—economic sanctions against Iran and the list goes 
>> on. He has refused to pay the WHO He has taken the us out of the Paris 
>> climate agreement— What greater violence to the entire world cd there be? He 
>> promotes fossil fuels, actively lowers regulations and enforcement critical 
>> to environmental survival. He allowed covid to kill over 200,000 people in 
>> the us alone, promotes fake
>  medical advice by which he financially profits.  He refuses to support 
> international efforts against covid. Trump is already worse both externally 
> and internally than Biden cd possibly be. And Trump listens to no one except 
> maybe Putin. Biden wd be forced into more public accountability. With Trump 
> there is not even the pretense. He is undoubtedly the worst, most destructive 
> President in the history of the us. But, by all means, hold onto those 
> leninist fantasies that strengthening the worst aspects of capitalism will 
> lead inevitably to its salutary self-destruction, which, btw will be the 
> self-immolation of the planet. 
> 
> By all means, go and vote for Real Change™ in November, and be shook
> when nothing changes. That is the real fantasy here.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Zak McGregor mailto:zak.mcgre...@gmail.com>>

#  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
#is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
#  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:

Re: your response

[Keith Sanborn]

It’s true. The US Presidents have made violence their major export. And Biden 
was a witness to Obama’s drone strike kill lists. But this does not make Biden 
worse than Trump. Trump has amplified violence and directed it towards an 
internal target. As Stalin used to call it, the enemy within. Here he uses both 
state forces and paramilitaries like any 3rd World dictator. He has also 
maintained levels of external violence, for example by strengthening military 
and diplomatic support for Israeli genocide—besides encouraging slow violence, 
supporting Palestinian  starvation through sub-humanitarian minimums—economic 
sanctions against Iran and the list goes on. He has refused to pay the WHO He 
has taken the us out of the Paris climate agreement— What greater violence to 
the entire world cd there be? He promotes fossil fuels, actively lowers 
regulations and enforcement critical to environmental survival. He allowed 
covid to kill over 200,000 people in the us alone, promotes fake medical advice 
by which he financially profits.  He refuses to support international efforts 
against covid. Trump is already worse both externally and internally than Biden 
cd possibly be. And Trump listens to no one except maybe Putin. Biden wd be 
forced into more public accountability. With Trump there is not even the 
pretense. He is undoubtedly the worst, most destructive President in the 
history of the us. But, by all means, hold onto those leninist fantasies that 
strengthening the worst aspects of capitalism will lead inevitably to its 
salutary self-destruction, which, btw will be the self-immolation of the 
planet. 

> On Oct 10, 2020, at 4:13 AM, Zak McGregor  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 9 Oct 2020 12:30:03 -0400
> Keith Sanborn  wrote:
> 
>> I wd like to know why you think Biden is worse. A Biden regime wd at least 
>> repress the growing fascist militias here. Perhaps news didn’t reach you 
>> about the plot to kidnap and try (implicitly then execute for treason) the 
>> female Democratic  governor of Michigan foiled by the FBI. Her crime was 
>> making people wear face masks by executive order The Supreme Court of that 
>> Republican-dominated state struck down that lapse into sanity. Trump has 
>> encouraged these groups.
> 
> This is nothing compared to what violence is meted out by the US, directly or 
> indirectly - against people around the world. Both Republican and Democrat 
> parties traditionally support these acts. Obama, for instance, destroyed 
> Libya and attempted to destroy Syria. He only half succeeded. From outside 
> the USA, there is zero difference between any of the 44 presidents (you call 
> Trump 45, but he's only the 44th different person to hold that office, I 
> think).
> 
>> I don’t want to live with the daily levels of violence reported in the media 
>> and by friends in South Africa. Your situation is a bit different I think. 
>> But, perhaps those levels of violence are exaggerated. In that situation I 
>> might think differently. 
> 
> Yours is a violent system. It's always been so, and you always vote to 
> continue that.
> 
> Ciao
> 
> Zak
> 
> -- 
> Zak McGregor 
#  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
#is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
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#  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:

your response

[Keith Sanborn]

Hi Zak,

I wd like to know why you think Biden is worse. A Biden regime wd at least 
repress the growing fascist militias here. Perhaps news didn’t reach you about 
the plot to kidnap and try (implicitly then execute for treason) the female 
Democratic  governor of Michigan foiled by the FBI. Her crime was making people 
wear face masks by executive order The Supreme Court of that 
Republican-dominated state struck down that lapse into sanity. Trump has 
encouraged these groups.

I don’t want to live with the daily levels of violence reported in the media 
and by friends in South Africa. Your situation is a bit different I think. But, 
perhaps those levels of violence are exaggerated. In that situation I might 
think differently. 

Keith 
#  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
#is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
#  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: