Re: nettime Debtors' of The World Unite! The Initiative to form an International Debtors' Party.
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 21:13:38 +0200, Matze Schmidt matze.schm...@n0name.de wrote: Sorry, some last words to it: Thanks, I appreciate your feedback. If you reject the possibility of knowing the essence (which is a dynamic thing not just 'static essence') behind, under or besides the appearance(s) (Hegel), you just follow what's the form of it and see only form (impressionism). I don't reject the possibility of knowing anything, I've arrived at the realization that movements are not fueled by theories. That is your contradiction: First you state the debtors would feel equal know their situation as debtors with power and then you want to missionise them. Us. Not Them. It is not them I wish to missionise, it is the historic mission of the proletariate to abolish class, and do this, we must organize. What is the alternative? Do nothing and lecture the few random people you encounter on theory? The proletariate must organize themselves. The Debtors' Party can be a component of such organization. So the only possibilities are Capitalism or Bolshevism? Never said that. It's only that one can learn a lot from the Bolsheviki-story and from must of a New Economic Policy (NEP) around 1921. Yes, and since we didn't learn that Capitalist provisioning was the only possible solution, and since we've not talked about, nor should we talk about, the specifics of how such provisioning would be implemented, how is this is not yet another random, non-germaine, tangent? You're simply employing a false dilema; that any non-capitalist provisioning must lead to same outcome as it did in Bolshevik history. You are forgetting that almost no worker has built a care he can not afford since most workers in the Western economies are no-longer direct producers. As explained in the text. Well, that's wrong as we know. You seem to be misunderstanding what is meant by direct-producer as opposed to indirect producer. There are many texts on the subject, perhaps you would find my description of technologists as non-direct workers more clear: From http://dmytri.info/capital-doesnt-automate-it-entangles While the skilled technologists that design the software are increasingly separated from the location of direct production, where surlus-value is created, and thus are abstracted from the appropriation of surplus value. Technologists, often do not see themselves as exploited labour. Since they do not directly toil in the production of consumer goods or services, they often feel enabled, not exploited by capital. They produce ideas, designs, maybe prototypes, but never final products for sale. The Capitalists allow them to realize their technical visions, they don't directly take anything from them. Best, -- Dmyri Kleiner Venture Communist # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
Re: nettime Debtors' of The World Unite! The Initiative to form an International Debtors' Party.
On 23/09/11 15:37, Dmytri Kleiner wrote: You don't need to convince people they are debtors', they know that already. We need to convince them instead that non-capitalist provision of housing, education and medicine is the solution to the problems they have, and this is possible because the solution is implied by their felt conditions, and does not require being convinced of any complex theoretic or ideological positions to support. You don't need to convince people that they're workers, either - but convincing them that they're members of a working class, with class interests, is a different matter. Nevertheless it's possible, even without acquiring significant theory, to imagine how workers *as workers* could sustain an imaginary future society, if their productive power could be unshackled from capitalism. It's not easy to see how debtors *as debtors* could do the same. What would a society of unshackled debtors look like? Debt is a negative concept, and its absence is... what? So a debtors' party seems to have even more obstacles in its path than a workers' party. First it must convince people that they're members of a debtor class. Then it must convince them that the debtor class has the collective power to change the social order. *Then*, unlike workers' parties, it must convince them that after the social order is changed, they can become something else. But what? Workers? Cheers, Michael # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
Re: nettime Debtors' of The World Unite! The Initiative to form an International Debtors' Party.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 13:09:41 +0200, Matze Schmidt matze.schm...@n0name.de wrote: Hi Dmytri, yes, but the paryt was simply your kind of proposition to the rest of the text. The party was used as an example of a cause based party, which I argue can not mobilize the masses, and therefore can only remain politically fringe. It is not in the workplace that the appropriation is felt, but rather after work, when they go home to pay their bills. this is maybe a slightly too simple view on what's called free or leisure time. There is only free time since there was a working time for wage beforehand (a non-free time and a stolen time for surplus work to produce the surplus product [overproduction]) and because there was a time without working for wage before the working time for wage. What seems to be left here is time to voting for parties, if you like via liquid democracy technologies -- in its ideologiocal parts a pluralistic and anti-proletarian technology -- but it remains voting within a sysrtem of representation. So important is first and foremost the time-horizon and not the places shifted or the drift of places. For with every hour of wage work workers (and service providers) pay a sort of bill, the time bill. Not clear what you are saying here, I didn't discuss free time or leisure at all. The argument is that politics must be based around economic classes and framed according the felt conditions of those classes, not theory or opinion, but terms of struggle. Such terms that have shifted in a financialized, post=industrial society where most are no longer direct-producers, and thus class politics needs to adapt to that if it is to have resonance. Best, -- Dmyri Kleiner Venture Communist # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
Re: nettime Debtors' of The World Unite! The Initiative to form an International Debtors' Party.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:19:25 +0200, Matze Schmidt matze.schm...@n0name.de wrote: Well, you've been telling that the the workplace is not the place where appropriation is felt. Feeling and knowing are diffrent types of consciousness or awareness. To feel I'm not exploited does not mean that your're not. And I never argue that they are not exploited, quite the oposite. Yet knowing that they are exploited would require acquiring significant theory, which the masses will not. They know they are Debt, so this is the logical place to start. Thus a Debtors' Party is the logical solution. You don't need to convince people they are debtors', they know that already. We need to convince them instead that non-capitalist provision of housing, education and medicine is the solution to the problems they have, and this is possible because the solution is implied by their felt conditions, and does not require being convinced of any complex theoretic or ideological positions to support. Best, -- Dmyri Kleiner Venture Communist # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
Re: nettime Debtors' of The World Unite! The Initiative to form an International Debtors' Party.
On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 00:48:34 +0200, Matze Schmidt matze.schm...@n0name.de wrote: The Pirate Party Germany is just a young liberal party defending benefits for and of middle class business or creative people in the so called hypermobile city as some belive Berlin may be one. Hey Matze, the text is not about the pirate party. Best, -- Dmyri Kleiner Venture Communist # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
