Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 10:21 -0700, Robert Smits wrote: > SCPM has been around for eons. Unlike network manager it actually does > look > after switching my nfs network settings between home, job, and an internet > cafe. I wish it did just work. Is the project actively maintained by Novell or anyone else? Your email inspired me to go and see what it was about, but their mailing list shows just a single post in the last year, an unanswered enquiry by yourself several months ago. The CVS repository hasn't been touched since this time last year either... Simon. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
On September 10, 2008 12:03:19 pm Dan Williams wrote: > On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 08:44 -0700, Robert Smits wrote: > > On September 10, 2008 06:23:12 am Dan Williams wrote: > > > On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 12:01 +0300, Kristian Slavov wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Is NM capable of handling the following scenario? > > > > A laptop, when located at office, has a static address. Once outside, > > > > DHCP is used to get an address. > > > > > > NM 0.7 is, but since you're mixing the two there will be some manual > > > operation on your side since there's not a good generic way to > > > autodetect what network you're on when you plug in the cable. > > > > > > You'll create two wired connections in the connection editor. One is a > > > DHCP connection with 'autoconnect=true', and the second is the static > > > connection with 'autoconnect=false'. Manual intervention will be > > > required when you want to use the static connection at the office. > > > > > > What should happen is this: > > > > > > 1) When you're outside the office, the DHCP connection will > > > automatically be used because it's 'autoconnect=true'. If there isn't > > > a DHCP server present, NM will fail the connection and wait for you to > > > do something, or for a link change event. > > > > > > 2) At the office, NM would try DHCP first and then fail the connection > > > after the DHCP timeout because of course there's no DHCP server. At > > > any point here you then choose the static connection from the applet > > > menu, and NM will activate the static connection at your command. > > > > > > People have tossed around ideas like ARPing a known gateway's IP > > > address and matching the ARP response to a known MAC address and then > > > activating that connection, but that's pretty fragile and trivial to > > > maliciously spoof. > > > > This way of doing things seems like a kluge. Why can't network-manager > > just work with scpm which already does all of this, including nfs > > networks? > > First, because scpm doesn't seem to be widely used. You're actually the > first person I've ever heard mention it, and when you did mention it, I > had to go off and look it up. Network profile mechanisms aren't new, > but not that many people use them any more because for the most part > stuff just works. That's not to say that they aren't useful for some > situations, like yours. SCPM has been around for eons. Unlike network manager it actually does look after switching my nfs network settings between home, job, and an internet cafe. I wish it did just work. > Second, profiles make for a pretty sucky experience, and are only really > necessary for connections which you can't autodetect, like wired ones. > I'd seriously hate to have to select a profile every time I moved to a > new location, but of course most of those locations don't require the > use of a wired network. Again, profiles as such limit usability for > anyone who doesn't use wired networks. Connections like wireless, > mobile broadband, bluetooth, etc can all be autodetected quite well and > thus don't need profiles as such. Sucky? What's sucks is not automatically switching my nfs network when I change connections. SCPM is actually VERY easy to use and not sucky at all. All I need to do is hit F3 during the boot process and select which profile I want. After that it selects all my settings, including the nfs network and it all just runs. I'd be perfectly happy to use it with knetwork manager. > Third, you could certainly create some scpm scripts to flip the > 'autoconnect' property of the two connections you'd care about. Thus, > in conjunction with your current usage of scpm, NM would certainly give > you a click-free (aside from choosing your profile with scpm which > you're already doing) method of selecting your location. > > In short, I think you could make this work with scpm just fine, as long > as you can use it to either modify ifcfg files in /etc (for system > connections) or after you log in (for user connections). Should be > pretty trivial to set up. > > If the right connection is chosen, NM can already facilitate most of the > profile stuff you're probably using, like NFS, proxies, etc, through > dispatcher scripts with no additional choice of "profile" required like > AIUI scpm would require. So again, there could be no additional effort > required on your part besides choosing the right scpm setup. > > Dan I'm not comfortable writing scripts or modifying config files. I'm gradually doing a lot more of that than I want to, and I'm learning, but I'm more interested in having it working than learning how to write scripts. I appreciate your directions, but my days are already far too long to have any time left over to write scripts. That's not your fault, I know, and I don't suggest it is, but I do wish scpm and network manager worked together without more configuration on my part. -- Robert Smits CEP525G Nanaimo, Duncan & District Labour Council
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:01 PM, Kristian Slavov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You can do all sorts of magic, but that wasn't the point. You don't always > have an access to DHCP and/or DNS servers to configure all sorts of things > (or your request is denied). Sure but there is no point in implementing more magic if some admin is actively braking the current one :) -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
Dan Williams wrote: On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 12:15 +0200, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Kristian Slavov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Unfortunately the office network has also a DHCP server. Wouldn't it make more sense to properly configure the DHCP server then? ;) Yeah, seriously, have the DHCP server hand out a "static" IP based on the DHCP Client ID that the workstation sends in the initial DHCP request. Can even have DHCP pass the desired hostname of the machine to the DHCP server, which DHCP will then forward to the DNS server and you'll magically have a stable DNS name for your machine too even though the address might change. You can do all sorts of magic, but that wasn't the point. You don't always have an access to DHCP and/or DNS servers to configure all sorts of things (or your request is denied). Anyways, I got my answers. Thanks! KS smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 12:15 +0200, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Kristian Slavov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Unfortunately the office network has also a DHCP server. > > Wouldn't it make more sense to properly configure the DHCP server then? ;) Yeah, seriously, have the DHCP server hand out a "static" IP based on the DHCP Client ID that the workstation sends in the initial DHCP request. Can even have DHCP pass the desired hostname of the machine to the DHCP server, which DHCP will then forward to the DNS server and you'll magically have a stable DNS name for your machine too even though the address might change. Dan ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Kristian Slavov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Unfortunately the office network has also a DHCP server. Wouldn't it make more sense to properly configure the DHCP server then? ;) -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
Dan Williams wrote: On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 12:01 +0300, Kristian Slavov wrote: Hi, Is NM capable of handling the following scenario? A laptop, when located at office, has a static address. Once outside, DHCP is used to get an address. NM 0.7 is, but since you're mixing the two there will be some manual operation on your side since there's not a good generic way to autodetect what network you're on when you plug in the cable. You'll create two wired connections in the connection editor. One is a DHCP connection with 'autoconnect=true', and the second is the static connection with 'autoconnect=false'. Manual intervention will be required when you want to use the static connection at the office. What should happen is this: 1) When you're outside the office, the DHCP connection will automatically be used because it's 'autoconnect=true'. If there isn't a DHCP server present, NM will fail the connection and wait for you to do something, or for a link change event. 2) At the office, NM would try DHCP first and then fail the connection after the DHCP timeout because of course there's no DHCP server. At any point here you then choose the static connection from the applet menu, and NM will activate the static connection at your command. Unfortunately the office network has also a DHCP server. People have tossed around ideas like ARPing a known gateway's IP address and matching the ARP response to a known MAC address and then activating that connection, but that's pretty fragile and trivial to maliciously spoof. This is the kind of functionality that I currently have with some custom made scripts. I understand the issues, but so far consider the risks quite negligible. I'm 99.9% sure I can differentiate when I'm at office and when not. So in my case an arping based insecure network detection with a pop-up saying "Connected to X", would be sufficient. However, I do realize that the whole point of the NM is to be as simple (and automatic) as possible for ordinary people. If people start trusting this too much, problems will surely arise. KS smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 13:41 -0400, Kevin Hunter wrote: > At 9:23am -0400 on Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Dan Williams wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 12:01 +0300, Kristian Slavov wrote: > >> Is NM capable of handling the following scenario? > >> A laptop, when located at office, has a static address. Once outside, > >> DHCP is used to get an address. > > > > NM 0.7 is, but since you're mixing the two there will be some manual > > operation on your side since there's not a good generic way to > > autodetect what network you're on when you plug in the cable. > > Hmm, not to be Ubuntu-centric, but I see this brainstorm idea: > > "Intelligent integration of Network Manager with applications" > http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/12934/ We've pretty much wanted this from day 1 way back in 2004... There had always been vague plans to get things like Thunderbird and Evolution to tie a mail account to specific connections, such that when those connections are active (be it "Work" or "Work VPN") then and only then would Evolution or Thunderbird try to check your work mail account. There are a few levels of awareness, the first being basic "can my packets get somewhere beyond me" and the next level being "where am I connected at, work or home or elsewhere?" > I thought I saw another one about selecting one's location as well, but > now I can't find it. In any event, the idea is to basically mimic what > OS X currently does with locations. You can select where you are (Via > Apple->Location), and it will set the current profile of the computer > (Internet sharing enabled/disabled, airport on/off, etc.) I've maintained that this is a sub-optimal experience almost from day #1, because for most people you can detect location without any user interaction at all. The OS X Location Manager (it's existed since Mac OS 7 really) is a carry-over from the times you had to dial up or hook up or use AppleTalk, not from 2008 when you have WiFi, Bluetooth, and broadband. Think about Robert's scenario: work and home. He already has to choose a "profile" on startup with scpm. That's what, at least one click? If he were to use the static/dynamic setup that I recommended for NM (selecting the static "work" connection when he was at work, which is also just one click) instead of using scpm, he could achieve the exact same results with less software and complexity. You can already modify NFS mounts, proxies, printers, etc from dispatcher scripts. > Any thoughts about tying some functionality like this together with some > D-Bus stuffs? NM emits signals when the connection changes, and thus apps can certainly figure out where they are connected at any given point in time. If you want to treat connections like "profiles", you could key off the connection UUID for "Work" and set up your NFS mounts accordingly when the "Work" connection was successfully activated. Something could certainly poke "disable wireless" when the "Work" connection gets activated. That sort of thing. Dan ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
RE: Static and dynamic wired interface
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Williams Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 3:03 PM To: Robert Smits Cc: networkmanager-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Static and dynamic wired interface On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 08:44 -0700, Robert Smits wrote: > On September 10, 2008 06:23:12 am Dan Williams wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 12:01 +0300, Kristian Slavov wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Is NM capable of handling the following scenario? > > > A laptop, when located at office, has a static address. Once outside, > > > DHCP is used to get an address. > > > > NM 0.7 is, but since you're mixing the two there will be some manual > > operation on your side since there's not a good generic way to > > autodetect what network you're on when you plug in the cable. > > > > You'll create two wired connections in the connection editor. One is a > > DHCP connection with 'autoconnect=true', and the second is the static > > connection with 'autoconnect=false'. Manual intervention will be > > required when you want to use the static connection at the office. > > > > What should happen is this: > > > > 1) When you're outside the office, the DHCP connection will > > automatically be used because it's 'autoconnect=true'. If there isn't a > > DHCP server present, NM will fail the connection and wait for you to do > > something, or for a link change event. > > > > 2) At the office, NM would try DHCP first and then fail the connection > > after the DHCP timeout because of course there's no DHCP server. At any > > point here you then choose the static connection from the applet menu, > > and NM will activate the static connection at your command. > > > > People have tossed around ideas like ARPing a known gateway's IP address > > and matching the ARP response to a known MAC address and then activating > > that connection, but that's pretty fragile and trivial to maliciously > > spoof. > This way of doing things seems like a kluge. Why can't network-manager just > work with scpm which already does all of this, including nfs networks? First, because scpm doesn't seem to be widely used. You're actually the first person I've ever heard mention it, and when you did mention it, I had to go off and look it up. Network profile mechanisms aren't new, but not that many people use them any more because for the most part stuff just works. That's not to say that they aren't useful for some situations, like yours. Second, profiles make for a pretty sucky experience, and are only really necessary for connections which you can't autodetect, like wired ones. I'd seriously hate to have to select a profile every time I moved to a new location, but of course most of those locations don't require the use of a wired network. Again, profiles as such limit usability for anyone who doesn't use wired networks. Connections like wireless, mobile broadband, bluetooth, etc can all be autodetected quite well and thus don't need profiles as such. Third, you could certainly create some scpm scripts to flip the 'autoconnect' property of the two connections you'd care about. Thus, in conjunction with your current usage of scpm, NM would certainly give you a click-free (aside from choosing your profile with scpm which you're already doing) method of selecting your location. In short, I think you could make this work with scpm just fine, as long as you can use it to either modify ifcfg files in /etc (for system connections) or after you log in (for user connections). Should be pretty trivial to set up. If the right connection is chosen, NM can already facilitate most of the profile stuff you're probably using, like NFS, proxies, etc, through dispatcher scripts with no additional choice of "profile" required like AIUI scpm would require. So again, there could be no additional effort required on your part besides choosing the right scpm setup. Dan ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 08:44 -0700, Robert Smits wrote: > On September 10, 2008 06:23:12 am Dan Williams wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 12:01 +0300, Kristian Slavov wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Is NM capable of handling the following scenario? > > > A laptop, when located at office, has a static address. Once outside, > > > DHCP is used to get an address. > > > > NM 0.7 is, but since you're mixing the two there will be some manual > > operation on your side since there's not a good generic way to > > autodetect what network you're on when you plug in the cable. > > > > You'll create two wired connections in the connection editor. One is a > > DHCP connection with 'autoconnect=true', and the second is the static > > connection with 'autoconnect=false'. Manual intervention will be > > required when you want to use the static connection at the office. > > > > What should happen is this: > > > > 1) When you're outside the office, the DHCP connection will > > automatically be used because it's 'autoconnect=true'. If there isn't a > > DHCP server present, NM will fail the connection and wait for you to do > > something, or for a link change event. > > > > 2) At the office, NM would try DHCP first and then fail the connection > > after the DHCP timeout because of course there's no DHCP server. At any > > point here you then choose the static connection from the applet menu, > > and NM will activate the static connection at your command. > > > > People have tossed around ideas like ARPing a known gateway's IP address > > and matching the ARP response to a known MAC address and then activating > > that connection, but that's pretty fragile and trivial to maliciously > > spoof. > This way of doing things seems like a kluge. Why can't network-manager just > work with scpm which already does all of this, including nfs networks? First, because scpm doesn't seem to be widely used. You're actually the first person I've ever heard mention it, and when you did mention it, I had to go off and look it up. Network profile mechanisms aren't new, but not that many people use them any more because for the most part stuff just works. That's not to say that they aren't useful for some situations, like yours. Second, profiles make for a pretty sucky experience, and are only really necessary for connections which you can't autodetect, like wired ones. I'd seriously hate to have to select a profile every time I moved to a new location, but of course most of those locations don't require the use of a wired network. Again, profiles as such limit usability for anyone who doesn't use wired networks. Connections like wireless, mobile broadband, bluetooth, etc can all be autodetected quite well and thus don't need profiles as such. Third, you could certainly create some scpm scripts to flip the 'autoconnect' property of the two connections you'd care about. Thus, in conjunction with your current usage of scpm, NM would certainly give you a click-free (aside from choosing your profile with scpm which you're already doing) method of selecting your location. In short, I think you could make this work with scpm just fine, as long as you can use it to either modify ifcfg files in /etc (for system connections) or after you log in (for user connections). Should be pretty trivial to set up. If the right connection is chosen, NM can already facilitate most of the profile stuff you're probably using, like NFS, proxies, etc, through dispatcher scripts with no additional choice of "profile" required like AIUI scpm would require. So again, there could be no additional effort required on your part besides choosing the right scpm setup. Dan ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
At 9:23am -0400 on Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Dan Williams wrote: > On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 12:01 +0300, Kristian Slavov wrote: >> Is NM capable of handling the following scenario? >> A laptop, when located at office, has a static address. Once outside, >> DHCP is used to get an address. > > NM 0.7 is, but since you're mixing the two there will be some manual > operation on your side since there's not a good generic way to > autodetect what network you're on when you plug in the cable. Hmm, not to be Ubuntu-centric, but I see this brainstorm idea: "Intelligent integration of Network Manager with applications" http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/12934/ I thought I saw another one about selecting one's location as well, but now I can't find it. In any event, the idea is to basically mimic what OS X currently does with locations. You can select where you are (Via Apple->Location), and it will set the current profile of the computer (Internet sharing enabled/disabled, airport on/off, etc.) Any thoughts about tying some functionality like this together with some D-Bus stuffs? Kevin ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
On September 10, 2008 06:23:12 am Dan Williams wrote: > On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 12:01 +0300, Kristian Slavov wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Is NM capable of handling the following scenario? > > A laptop, when located at office, has a static address. Once outside, > > DHCP is used to get an address. > > NM 0.7 is, but since you're mixing the two there will be some manual > operation on your side since there's not a good generic way to > autodetect what network you're on when you plug in the cable. > > You'll create two wired connections in the connection editor. One is a > DHCP connection with 'autoconnect=true', and the second is the static > connection with 'autoconnect=false'. Manual intervention will be > required when you want to use the static connection at the office. > > What should happen is this: > > 1) When you're outside the office, the DHCP connection will > automatically be used because it's 'autoconnect=true'. If there isn't a > DHCP server present, NM will fail the connection and wait for you to do > something, or for a link change event. > > 2) At the office, NM would try DHCP first and then fail the connection > after the DHCP timeout because of course there's no DHCP server. At any > point here you then choose the static connection from the applet menu, > and NM will activate the static connection at your command. > > People have tossed around ideas like ARPing a known gateway's IP address > and matching the ARP response to a known MAC address and then activating > that connection, but that's pretty fragile and trivial to maliciously > spoof. > > Dan > > ___ > NetworkManager-list mailing list > NetworkManager-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list This way of doing things seems like a kluge. Why can't network-manager just work with scpm which already does all of this, including nfs networks? -- Robert Smits CEP525G Nanaimo, Duncan & District Labour Council Box 822 Nanaimo, V9R 5N2 Ph 250-753-0201 Fax 250-753-2954 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
Re: Static and dynamic wired interface
On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 12:01 +0300, Kristian Slavov wrote: > Hi, > > Is NM capable of handling the following scenario? > A laptop, when located at office, has a static address. Once outside, > DHCP is used to get an address. NM 0.7 is, but since you're mixing the two there will be some manual operation on your side since there's not a good generic way to autodetect what network you're on when you plug in the cable. You'll create two wired connections in the connection editor. One is a DHCP connection with 'autoconnect=true', and the second is the static connection with 'autoconnect=false'. Manual intervention will be required when you want to use the static connection at the office. What should happen is this: 1) When you're outside the office, the DHCP connection will automatically be used because it's 'autoconnect=true'. If there isn't a DHCP server present, NM will fail the connection and wait for you to do something, or for a link change event. 2) At the office, NM would try DHCP first and then fail the connection after the DHCP timeout because of course there's no DHCP server. At any point here you then choose the static connection from the applet menu, and NM will activate the static connection at your command. People have tossed around ideas like ARPing a known gateway's IP address and matching the ARP response to a known MAC address and then activating that connection, but that's pretty fragile and trivial to maliciously spoof. Dan ___ NetworkManager-list mailing list NetworkManager-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
