Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2012-01-07 Thread David Levine 
Bill wrote:

> Stephen Gildea  writes:
> > In nmh 1.3 (and 1.4-RC2), the "post" program doesn't read the
> > user's profile file.  It is quite deliberate about this, calling
> > context_foil().  Why?
> The bit offered by John Romine agrees with my memory. You are actually
> using  "send", right? If you're using "post," try "send" instead which
> is documented to observe your profile.

Though until the fix for send to pass -fileproc to post,
fileproc would have been ignored by send.  BTW, that fix was
merged to the master this morning.

David

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2012-01-07 Thread Bill Wohler 
Stephen Gildea  writes:

> In nmh 1.3 (and 1.4-RC2), the "post" program doesn't read the
> user's profile file.  It is quite deliberate about this, calling
> context_foil().  Why?

The bit offered by John Romine agrees with my memory. You are actually
using "send", right? If you're using "post," try "send" instead which is
documented to observe your profile.

Jeffrey Honig  writes:
> Do we have e-mail archives or SCM data that can help us track this down?

Hmmm, I thought we might have that at SourceForge, but it appears that
Jerry and I just archived the actual releases, going back to version 5:

  http://sourceforge.net/projects/rand-mh/files/MH/

> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 19:17, Ken Hornstein  wrote:
> 
> I was curious about this as well, so I took a look.  I see there's
> still call to m_foil() in post back in MH 5.  So I am guessing the
> answer is, "we've always done it that way".  I see that the READ-ME
> for MH 5 is dated ... sweet Jesus, January 19th, 1985.  Suddenly I
> 
> That's about when I started using MH and mh-e...

Me too!

> The result I see is that post does not obey my fileproc profile
> entry, contrary to the documentation in the mh-profile man page.
>
>  < Stephen

David Levine  writes:
> I think [passing -fileproc to post] is the way to go. My personal
> preference is to use a command line option, not an environment
> variable.

Agreed. That would address the functionality that Stephen is missing.

Whether we do away with post is a separate question. As folks have
mentioned here, non-MH users are unlikely to use it so the argument
about not asking to create a profile isn't that strong. Reducing the
maintenance would be a good thing, so I would probably be for changing
post from a program to a library.

-- 
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http://www.newt.com/wohler/
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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2012-01-04 Thread David Levine 
OK, I hacked rcvdist, send, and whatnow to feed
fileproc and/or mhlproc to post.  It's on a branch,
fileproc_mhlproc_to_post, for now.  Mainly so I
could try out git remote branches, the changes
are really small.  And to allow time for more
discussion.

To try it:  git clone as usual, then
git checkout fileproc_mhlproc_to_post

David

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2012-01-04 Thread David Levine 
kre wrote:

> Date:Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:14:02 +
> From:Ralph Corderoy 
> Message-ID:  <20120103131403.2042932...@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
>
>   | So scan(1), etc., in a script should ignore ~/.mh_profile?
>
> I suspect it is more that most of the MH commands make no
> sense other than as the MUA's interface to the user, and so
> the user's preferences always make sense (even when scan is
> run in a script .. it is generally run for the benefit of the
> user running the script).
>
> On the other hand, sending mail can be done by a script
> entirely for the script's own purposes (logging its uses for
> the developer, or ...) and for that, the user's preferences as
> to how mail should get sent might more reasonably want to be
> ignored.  This is the function that mst of us would invoke
> using either "mail user" or some variation of sendmail
> (including the sendmail front ends that postfix, etc, mostly
> all provide for exactly this purpose), but being MH, the
> ability to use just MH for this purpose makes sense, so post
> is the "just send this as instructed" interface, and "send" is
> the front end to post that interprets the user's profile.

I asked John Romine and here's what he had to say, which
agrees and provides an example that convinces me:

# My take on this is that post should not be called by
# users directly, and it doesn't read the .mh_profile
# (only front-end UI programs read the profile).
#
# For example, there can be contexts where post is called
# by a helper program (like 'mhmail') which may be run by
# a non-MH user.  We don't want this to prompt the user
# to create an MH profile, etc.
#
# My suggestion would be to have send pass a (hidden)
# '-fileproc proc' option to post if needed.  You could also
# use an environment variable (I think send/whatnow do
# this).

I think that's the way to go.  My personal preference is
to use a command line option, not an environment variable.

I think that send and whatnow are the only programs that
interact with post and would need to pass a fileproc, and
they and rcvdist need to add mhlproc support.  I'll look
into it tonight.

David

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2012-01-03 Thread Robert Elz 
Date:Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:14:02 +
From:Ralph Corderoy 
Message-ID:  <20120103131403.2042932...@orac.inputplus.co.uk>

  | So scan(1), etc., in a script should ignore ~/.mh_profile?

I suspect it is more that most of the MH commands make no sense other
than as the MUA's interface to the user, and so the user's preferences
always make sense (even when scan is run in a script .. it is generally
run for the benefit of the user running the script).

On the other hand, sending mail can be done by a script entirely for the
script's own purposes (logging its uses for the developer, or ...) and
for that, the user's preferences as to how mail should get sent might more
reasonably want to be ignored.  This is the function that mst of us would
invoke using either "mail user" or some variation of sendmail (including
the sendmail front ends that postfix, etc, mostly all provide for exactly
this purpose), but being MH, the ability to use just MH for this purpose
makes sense, so post is the "just send this as instructed" interface, and
"send" is the front end to post that interprets the user's profile.

Personally, I'm not sure what the problem is, I can't imagine a reason anyone
would want to ever run post, other than from in a script, send is the command
for sending e-mail, and even that one only usually makes sense from the whatnow
prompt - anywhere else, to send e-mail, you use comp (you can turn off the
edit phase if you have a pre-prepared message).

I've been using MH since it was (truly) rand mh (ie: pre UCI) and I've
never felt the need to actually run the post command for anything (from
scripts, I use sendmail, or occasionally, mail, and skip MH completely).

kre


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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2012-01-03 Thread Paul Fox 
ralph wrote:
 > Jeffrey Honig wrote:
 > > Here's MTR's answer:
 > > 
 > > ``when you run mh commands in a script, you want all the defaults to
 > > be what the man page says.  when you run a command by hand, then you
 > > want your own defaults...
 > > 
 > > /mtr''
 > 
 > So scan(1), etc., in a script should ignore ~/.mh_profile?

whether any particular UI component is appropriate or useful in a
script has probably changed over time -- i suspect what people
are willing to script has become far more sophisticated over the
lifetime of mh.

if it's important to be able to ignore a user's .mh_profile during
execution, then a (new?  maybe it exists already) "-noprofile" option
would seem like the right implementation.  or, what i think already
exists (though i haven't tried it):
MH=/dev/null 

paul

 > 
 > Cheers, Ralph.
 > 
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=-
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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2012-01-03 Thread Ralph Corderoy 
Jeffrey Honig wrote:
> Here's MTR's answer:
> 
> ``when you run mh commands in a script, you want all the defaults to
> be what the man page says.  when you run a command by hand, then you
> want your own defaults...
> 
> /mtr''

So scan(1), etc., in a script should ignore ~/.mh_profile?

Cheers, Ralph.

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2012-01-02 Thread Jeffrey Honig 
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 19:23, Jeffrey Honig  wrote:

>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 19:17, Ken Hornstein  wrote:
>
>> >Sorry, I forgot to mention that I tried that already...
>>
>> Sorry Jeff, I should have guessed that.  I just thought maybe you weren't
>> familiar with "git blame".
>>
>> >I'm going to peruse here to see if there is some explaination of why it's
>> >that way and if the reason is still valid:
>> >
>> > https://sourceforge.net/projects/rand-mh/
>>
>> I was curious about this as well, so I took a look.  I see there's
>> still call to m_foil() in post back in MH 5.  So I am guessing the
>> answer is, "we've always done it that way".  I see that the READ-ME
>> for MH 5 is dated ... sweet Jesus, January 19th, 1985.  Suddenly I
>>
>
> That's about when I started using MH and mh-e...  Were you even born?  ;-)
>
>
>> feel young again!  There are a few ChangeLog entries that imply
>> that the m_foil() code was added by Marshall Rose, and he's still
>> alive, isn't he?  If people care, someone could always email him
>> and ask him about it (note: I am NOT volunteering; I have nothing
>> against Marshall Rose, I'm just not motivated enough to bother).
>>
>>
> He's around. I'll e-mail him.
>

Here's MTR's answer:

``when you run mh commands in a script, you want all the defaults to be
what the man page says.  when you run a command by hand, then you want your
own defaults...

/mtr''

This implies that post would only be run from a script, I'm not sure that's
the case.

Anyway, that gives us some insight into why it was done that way so we can
make an informed decision on changing it.

Thanks

Jeff

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-29 Thread Ken Hornstein 
>I think you mean John Romaine.  John Levine is known for many things, but
>MH in not among them...

Whoops, you're right; my apologies!

--Ken

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-29 Thread Jeffrey Honig 
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 20:30, Ken Hornstein  wrote:

> >That's about when I started using MH and mh-e...  Were you even born?  ;-)
>
> For the record ... yes :-)  I was in high school, actually.
>


> Chad Walstrom  wrote:
> >You may want to check out ESR's reposurgeon v0.9. He's been putting a lot
> >of effort in fixing artifacts in repositories.
>
> The problem isn't artifacts of our repository; AFAICT the git tree is
> an accurate representation of the CVS history.  It's just that the CVS
> history only goes back to well after the conversion to nmh was underway.
> We never got the revision history from Richard Coleman, much less UCI.
> So the details of those changes have been lost to history (unless Marshall
> Rose or John Levine still has a copy of what I presume to be the SCCS
> files for the original MH sitting around somewhere accessible).
>

I think you mean John Romaine.  John Levine is known for many things, but
MH in not among them...

Thanks

Jeff

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-29 Thread Ken Hornstein 
>That's about when I started using MH and mh-e...  Were you even born?  ;-)

For the record ... yes :-)  I was in high school, actually.

Chad Walstrom  wrote:
>You may want to check out ESR's reposurgeon v0.9. He's been putting a lot
>of effort in fixing artifacts in repositories.

The problem isn't artifacts of our repository; AFAICT the git tree is
an accurate representation of the CVS history.  It's just that the CVS
history only goes back to well after the conversion to nmh was underway.
We never got the revision history from Richard Coleman, much less UCI.
So the details of those changes have been lost to history (unless Marshall
Rose or John Levine still has a copy of what I presume to be the SCCS
files for the original MH sitting around somewhere accessible).

--Ken

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-29 Thread Chad Walstrom 
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 13:23, Ken Hornstein  wrote:

> >Do we have e-mail archives or SCM data that can help us track this down?
>
> Of course we do!
>

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Jeffrey Honig  wrote:
>
> Sorry, I forgot to mention that I tried that already...
>
> I'm going to peruse here to see if there is some explaination of why it's
> that way and if the reason is still valid:
>
>  https://sourceforge.net/projects/rand-mh/
>

You may want to check out ESR's reposurgeon v0.9. He's been putting a lot
of effort in fixing artifacts in repositories.

Home: http://catb.org/~esr/reposurgeon/
Documentation: http://www.catb.org/~esr/reposurgeon/reposurgeon.html

Chad
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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-29 Thread Jeffrey Honig 
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 19:17, Ken Hornstein  wrote:

> >Sorry, I forgot to mention that I tried that already...
>
> Sorry Jeff, I should have guessed that.  I just thought maybe you weren't
> familiar with "git blame".
>
> >I'm going to peruse here to see if there is some explaination of why it's
> >that way and if the reason is still valid:
> >
> > https://sourceforge.net/projects/rand-mh/
>
> I was curious about this as well, so I took a look.  I see there's
> still call to m_foil() in post back in MH 5.  So I am guessing the
> answer is, "we've always done it that way".  I see that the READ-ME
> for MH 5 is dated ... sweet Jesus, January 19th, 1985.  Suddenly I
>

That's about when I started using MH and mh-e...  Were you even born?  ;-)


> feel young again!  There are a few ChangeLog entries that imply
> that the m_foil() code was added by Marshall Rose, and he's still
> alive, isn't he?  If people care, someone could always email him
> and ask him about it (note: I am NOT volunteering; I have nothing
> against Marshall Rose, I'm just not motivated enough to bother).
>
>
He's around. I'll e-mail him.


Thanks

Jeff

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-29 Thread Ken Hornstein 
>Sorry, I forgot to mention that I tried that already...

Sorry Jeff, I should have guessed that.  I just thought maybe you weren't
familiar with "git blame".

>I'm going to peruse here to see if there is some explaination of why it's
>that way and if the reason is still valid:
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/rand-mh/

I was curious about this as well, so I took a look.  I see there's
still call to m_foil() in post back in MH 5.  So I am guessing the
answer is, "we've always done it that way".  I see that the READ-ME
for MH 5 is dated ... sweet Jesus, January 19th, 1985.  Suddenly I
feel young again!  There are a few ChangeLog entries that imply
that the m_foil() code was added by Marshall Rose, and he's still
alive, isn't he?  If people care, someone could always email him
and ask him about it (note: I am NOT volunteering; I have nothing
against Marshall Rose, I'm just not motivated enough to bother).

I was always under the impression that "post" was designed to be
called by another program ("send"), so maybe the thinking was that
you should put "post" stuff in the user's mh_profile entry for
"send".  Actually, this begs another question ... why are they
seperate programs, anyway?  It always has chapped my ass that if I
add a new switch that deals with a new sending email feature I have
to add it to both send and post.  Is there a reason that they aren't
the same program?

--Ken

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-29 Thread Jeffrey Honig 
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 13:23, Ken Hornstein  wrote:

> >> > In nmh 1.3 (and 1.4-RC2), the "post" program doesn't read the
> >> > user's profile file.  It is quite deliberate about this, calling
> >> > context_foil().  Why?
> >> >
> >> > The result I see is that post does not obey my fileproc profile
> >> > entry, contrary to the documentation in the mh-profile man page.
> >> >
> >> You're right.  I don't know why it doesn't read the user's
> >> profile.  It should be a simple change to the code and the
> >> post man page.  Can anyone think of a reason not to fix post?
> >>
> >
> >I've noticed this too.  At one point I was trying to harvest e-mail
> >addresses I sent mail to so that I could auto-add them to a spam
> white-list.
> >
> >Do we have e-mail archives or SCM data that can help us track this down?
>
> Of course we do!
>

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I tried that already...

I'm going to peruse here to see if there is some explaination of why it's
that way and if the reason is still valid:

 https://sourceforge.net/projects/rand-mh/


Thanks

Jeff

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-29 Thread Ken Hornstein 
>> > In nmh 1.3 (and 1.4-RC2), the "post" program doesn't read the
>> > user's profile file.  It is quite deliberate about this, calling
>> > context_foil().  Why?
>> >
>> > The result I see is that post does not obey my fileproc profile
>> > entry, contrary to the documentation in the mh-profile man page.
>> >
>> You're right.  I don't know why it doesn't read the user's
>> profile.  It should be a simple change to the code and the
>> post man page.  Can anyone think of a reason not to fix post?
>>
>
>I've noticed this too.  At one point I was trying to harvest e-mail
>addresses I sent mail to so that I could auto-add them to a spam white-list.
>
>Do we have e-mail archives or SCM data that can help us track this down?

Of course we do!

% git blame -L 335,338 post.c

Shows ... the blame lies with Doug Morris.  Actually, that's not
right.  It shows it as 1691e80890e5d8ba258c51c214a3e91880e1db2b,
which is the initial revision into the SourceForge CVS tree.  So
it's been that way since 1999.  That's the limit of the revision history
we have; we don't have any of the history from Richard Coleman's work.

Was it that way back with MH-6.8?  Hmm, it seems that it was ... although
back then it called m_foil(), which did the same thing.  Any of the old
farts still around want to speak up?

--Ken

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-26 Thread Jeffrey Honig 
On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 16:24, David Levine  wrote:

> Stephen wrote:
>
> > In nmh 1.3 (and 1.4-RC2), the "post" program doesn't read the
> > user's profile file.  It is quite deliberate about this, calling
> > context_foil().  Why?
> >
> > The result I see is that post does not obey my fileproc profile
> > entry, contrary to the documentation in the mh-profile man page.
> >
> >  < Stephen
>
> You're right.  I don't know why it doesn't read the user's
> profile.  It should be a simple change to the code and the
> post man page.  Can anyone think of a reason not to fix post?
>

I've noticed this too.  At one point I was trying to harvest e-mail
addresses I sent mail to so that I could auto-add them to a spam white-list.

Do we have e-mail archives or SCM data that can help us track this down?

Thanks

Jeff

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Re: [Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-24 Thread David Levine 
Stephen wrote:

> In nmh 1.3 (and 1.4-RC2), the "post" program doesn't read the
> user's profile file.  It is quite deliberate about this, calling
> context_foil().  Why?
> 
> The result I see is that post does not obey my fileproc profile
> entry, contrary to the documentation in the mh-profile man page.
> 
>  < Stephen

You're right.  I don't know why it doesn't read the user's
profile.  It should be a simple change to the code and the
post man page.  Can anyone think of a reason not to fix post?

David

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[Nmh-workers] nmh "post" doesn't read profile, fileproc ignored

2011-12-23 Thread Stephen Gildea 
In nmh 1.3 (and 1.4-RC2), the "post" program doesn't read the
user's profile file.  It is quite deliberate about this, calling
context_foil().  Why?

The result I see is that post does not obey my fileproc profile
entry, contrary to the documentation in the mh-profile man page.

 < Stephen

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