Re: [PR] Propose "why" explanation on discussions and decision making [comdev-working-groups]
rbowen merged PR #29: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/29 -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: notifications-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org
Re: [PR] Propose "why" explanation on discussions and decision making [comdev-working-groups]
potiuk commented on PR #29: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/29#issuecomment-2007133213 > I don't see point two mentioned There was a paragraph on that already: > The mailing list provide a permanent record of the discussions and decisions and the Apache Software Foundation Infrastructure team makes sure that the archives are preserved and available for the future, including the ability to search and browse the archives, as well as permanently link to the discussions and decisions so that they can be always referred to in the future. But I added a one sentence summary at the top and updated the paragraph to stress importance of it. The description indeed becomes a bit long to read it in it's entirety and get the quick grasp of what's in, so having a summarizing one line at the beginning is a good idea. -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: notifications-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org
Re: [PR] Propose "why" explanation on discussions and decision making [comdev-working-groups]
rbowen commented on PR #29: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/29#issuecomment-2004203521 There are two primary reasons we use mailing lists: 1) Accessibility and 2) Archive. That is, 1) ensuring that everyone in the world, regardless of language, timezone, or quality of network, can participate; and 2) ensuring that we have a permanent record of the discussion for later reference. We didn't invent mailing lists, or even have any discussion about how it was to be done. That's just how things were done in 1994, and had been done that way for a decade leading up to that. We were standing on the shoulders of giants, and recognizing the already-acknowledged benefits. I don't see point two mentioned, but what you have written is fine. +1 to merging what you have. Possibly a mention of the archival nature of mailing lists would be warranted. -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: notifications-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org
Re: [PR] Propose "why" explanation on discussions and decision making [comdev-working-groups]
potiuk commented on PR #29: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/29#issuecomment-1992264772 Added some updates based on @justinmclean's comment. I really would love to hear from others, mainly about "using other tools as well". I think there are a number of "let's only use devlist" or "bring all the communication to the devlist automaticallly" - but as stated in the current version - there is a balance between "low signal-to-noise" on one end and "decisions made outside of the list" - which is I think the `gist` of the whole `why`. Too much in one direction is bad, too much in the other is also bad for other reasons. I wonder if the way described now is good in describing it. -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: notifications-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org
Re: [PR] Propose "why" explanation on discussions and decision making [comdev-working-groups]
potiuk commented on code in PR #29: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/29#discussion_r1521914018 ## wg-advisors/why/why_discussions_and_decisions.md: ## @@ -1,13 +1,77 @@ # Why discussion and decision making had to happen on the mailing list -TODO: - ## Summary +Discussions and decision making should happen on the mailing list to ensure that the project is +transparent and that all decisions are made in the open. This is important to ensure that all +community members have the opportunity to participate in the decision making process. + ## Links to relevant documents +* [The Apache Way](https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/) +* [Mailing list guidelines](https://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html) + ## Why are we doing it? +Mailing list the primary communication channel for the project. It has been chosen - at the dawn of the +Foundation as the primary communication channel because it was the most inclusive and accessible channel +for all community members, allowing for asynchronous communication and ensuring that all community members +have the opportunity to participate. All the important decisions and discussions happens there - including +the decision to invite new committers and PMC members, the decisions to release software, and the decisions +to change the project's direction. Review Comment: I like the "informatoin density" particaularly (and agree). I added a small chapter stressing the properties you mentioned -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: notifications-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org
Re: [PR] Propose "why" explanation on discussions and decision making [comdev-working-groups]
potiuk commented on code in PR #29: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/29#discussion_r1521901040 ## wg-advisors/why/why_discussions_and_decisions.md: ## @@ -1,13 +1,77 @@ # Why discussion and decision making had to happen on the mailing list -TODO: - ## Summary +Discussions and decision making should happen on the mailing list to ensure that the project is +transparent and that all decisions are made in the open. This is important to ensure that all +community members have the opportunity to participate in the decision making process. + ## Links to relevant documents +* [The Apache Way](https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/) +* [Mailing list guidelines](https://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html) + ## Why are we doing it? +Mailing list the primary communication channel for the project. It has been chosen - at the dawn of the +Foundation as the primary communication channel because it was the most inclusive and accessible channel +for all community members, allowing for asynchronous communication and ensuring that all community members +have the opportunity to participate. All the important decisions and discussions happens there - including +the decision to invite new committers and PMC members, the decisions to release software, and the decisions +to change the project's direction. + +Why the time passed and technology evolved, the mailing list still keep a lot of the properties that made it +the primary communication channel for the project. It is still the most inclusive and accessible channel for +all community members, they allow for asynchronous communication and do not require from the community members +to be online at the same time and to setup accounts with particular external services. + +They also provide a permanent record of the discussions and decisions and the Apache Software Foundation +Infrastructure team makes sure that the archives are preserved and available for the future, including the +ability to search and browse the archives, as well as permanently link to the discussions and decisions so +that they can be always referred to in the future. + +The communication on mailing list happens in English, which is the language of the Foundation, +and the language of the majority of the Foundation's community members. + +An important aspect of using the mailing list is that it allows anyone (including PMC members, committers, +contributors, and users, but also people from outside - Board members, other PMCs, non-ASF folks) to take +a look at the way how decisions are made and even participate in the discussions and decisions, and to +peek into the PMC status. This is important for the Foundation's transparency and for the community building +process. + +PMCs have at least two lists: dev@ and private@ - but it is important to mention that the private@ list should +only be used for discussions that are absolutely not suitable for public consumption, such as discussions +about security vulnerabilities, or discussions about individuals that are not suitable for public consumption +and should be kept private. The private@ list should not be used for discussions about the project's direction, +releases, or other important decisions. Review Comment: Yep. Added. -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: notifications-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org
Re: [PR] Propose "why" explanation on discussions and decision making [comdev-working-groups]
justinmclean commented on code in PR #29: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/29#discussion_r1520601586 ## wg-advisors/why/why_discussions_and_decisions.md: ## @@ -1,13 +1,77 @@ # Why discussion and decision making had to happen on the mailing list -TODO: - ## Summary +Discussions and decision making should happen on the mailing list to ensure that the project is +transparent and that all decisions are made in the open. This is important to ensure that all +community members have the opportunity to participate in the decision making process. + ## Links to relevant documents +* [The Apache Way](https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/) +* [Mailing list guidelines](https://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html) + ## Why are we doing it? +Mailing list the primary communication channel for the project. It has been chosen - at the dawn of the +Foundation as the primary communication channel because it was the most inclusive and accessible channel +for all community members, allowing for asynchronous communication and ensuring that all community members +have the opportunity to participate. All the important decisions and discussions happens there - including +the decision to invite new committers and PMC members, the decisions to release software, and the decisions +to change the project's direction. Review Comment: Also filtered or grouped by rules. -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: notifications-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org
Re: [PR] Propose "why" explanation on discussions and decision making [comdev-working-groups]
sebbASF commented on code in PR #29: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/29#discussion_r1520598309 ## wg-advisors/why/why_discussions_and_decisions.md: ## @@ -1,13 +1,77 @@ # Why discussion and decision making had to happen on the mailing list -TODO: - ## Summary +Discussions and decision making should happen on the mailing list to ensure that the project is +transparent and that all decisions are made in the open. This is important to ensure that all +community members have the opportunity to participate in the decision making process. + ## Links to relevant documents +* [The Apache Way](https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/) +* [Mailing list guidelines](https://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html) + ## Why are we doing it? +Mailing list the primary communication channel for the project. It has been chosen - at the dawn of the +Foundation as the primary communication channel because it was the most inclusive and accessible channel +for all community members, allowing for asynchronous communication and ensuring that all community members +have the opportunity to participate. All the important decisions and discussions happens there - including +the decision to invite new committers and PMC members, the decisions to release software, and the decisions +to change the project's direction. Review Comment: Most mail clients also allow emails to be easily categorised -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: notifications-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org
Re: [PR] Propose "why" explanation on discussions and decision making [comdev-working-groups]
justinmclean commented on code in PR #29: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/29#discussion_r1520571314 ## wg-advisors/why/why_discussions_and_decisions.md: ## @@ -1,13 +1,77 @@ # Why discussion and decision making had to happen on the mailing list -TODO: - ## Summary +Discussions and decision making should happen on the mailing list to ensure that the project is +transparent and that all decisions are made in the open. This is important to ensure that all +community members have the opportunity to participate in the decision making process. + ## Links to relevant documents +* [The Apache Way](https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/) +* [Mailing list guidelines](https://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html) + ## Why are we doing it? +Mailing list the primary communication channel for the project. It has been chosen - at the dawn of the +Foundation as the primary communication channel because it was the most inclusive and accessible channel +for all community members, allowing for asynchronous communication and ensuring that all community members +have the opportunity to participate. All the important decisions and discussions happens there - including +the decision to invite new committers and PMC members, the decisions to release software, and the decisions +to change the project's direction. + +Why the time passed and technology evolved, the mailing list still keep a lot of the properties that made it +the primary communication channel for the project. It is still the most inclusive and accessible channel for +all community members, they allow for asynchronous communication and do not require from the community members +to be online at the same time and to setup accounts with particular external services. + +They also provide a permanent record of the discussions and decisions and the Apache Software Foundation +Infrastructure team makes sure that the archives are preserved and available for the future, including the +ability to search and browse the archives, as well as permanently link to the discussions and decisions so +that they can be always referred to in the future. + +The communication on mailing list happens in English, which is the language of the Foundation, +and the language of the majority of the Foundation's community members. + +An important aspect of using the mailing list is that it allows anyone (including PMC members, committers, +contributors, and users, but also people from outside - Board members, other PMCs, non-ASF folks) to take +a look at the way how decisions are made and even participate in the discussions and decisions, and to +peek into the PMC status. This is important for the Foundation's transparency and for the community building +process. + +PMCs have at least two lists: dev@ and private@ - but it is important to mention that the private@ list should +only be used for discussions that are absolutely not suitable for public consumption, such as discussions +about security vulnerabilities, or discussions about individuals that are not suitable for public consumption +and should be kept private. The private@ list should not be used for discussions about the project's direction, +releases, or other important decisions. Review Comment: One possible exception is discussing/voting on a release with a security issue. ## wg-advisors/why/why_discussions_and_decisions.md: ## @@ -1,13 +1,77 @@ # Why discussion and decision making had to happen on the mailing list -TODO: - ## Summary +Discussions and decision making should happen on the mailing list to ensure that the project is +transparent and that all decisions are made in the open. This is important to ensure that all +community members have the opportunity to participate in the decision making process. + ## Links to relevant documents +* [The Apache Way](https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/) +* [Mailing list guidelines](https://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html) + ## Why are we doing it? +Mailing list the primary communication channel for the project. It has been chosen - at the dawn of the +Foundation as the primary communication channel because it was the most inclusive and accessible channel +for all community members, allowing for asynchronous communication and ensuring that all community members +have the opportunity to participate. All the important decisions and discussions happens there - including +the decision to invite new committers and PMC members, the decisions to release software, and the decisions +to change the project's direction. Review Comment: Other good reasons for using mailing lists are that they are accessible to everyone in any country, can be archived, are easily searchable, and are asynchronous, so anyone can take part no matter their time zone/day job/other responsibilities. I can see They also have far more information density than online chat or som
[PR] Propose "why" explanation on discussions and decision making [comdev-working-groups]
potiuk opened a new pull request, #29: URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-working-groups/pull/29 This change is a proposal on how we could describe the next "why" that I consider as very important - discussions and decision making. I tried to map all the red-flags we had for it into a coherent description of the "why" and linked to the two important places in the ASF "rules" that best describe some of the aspects of it. I think the part of the variations might be contentious, and I hope that in the advisors "leaders" group we can discuss it and get to a consensus that a) there are good reasons why the mailing lists were chosen in the long past b) the reasons for that are still valid today and mailing list shoud remoain the most important place for discussions and decision making while c) with the current set of technologies in many cases it is not the only way, but as long as PMC actively makes sure that the important discussions and decisions (and generally only those in more active projects) are brought to the list and where list is active and used for all the voting, super important decisions, this is all cool Looking forward to discussion here. -- This is an automated message from the Apache Git Service. To respond to the message, please log on to GitHub and use the URL above to go to the specific comment. To unsubscribe, e-mail: notifications-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For queries about this service, please contact Infrastructure at: us...@infra.apache.org
