[NSP] Re: Choyting - possible source of word
Hello All, As far as I can see, 'choyte' isn't in Heslop's work on Northumbrian Words (1892/95). Nor does there seem to be anything that might sound similar. The word isn't in Griffiths 'Dictionary of North East Dialect' (2004), either, nor in Geeson's 'Northumberland and Durham Word Book' (1969). I also had a look in Greenwell's 'Glossary of Terms used in the Coal Trade of Northumberland and Durham' (1888) in case Clough had adopted a mining term, but it isn't there, either. The nearest I've come to anything sounding even similar is 'shoite' (also 'shoitte', 'shoyte', 'shote', etc), an archaic form of 'shoat'. Shoat is, I think, from the West Flemish and means a young pig under a year old. It was in use in Durham in 1413, and appeared as late as the middle of the C19th. (This all comes from the OED.) The word seems to be only ever used as a noun, and I find no recorded use of it as a verb. Apart from any implications about the noise a young pig might make, I don't think it helps! Richard >Original Message >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Date: 25/08/2008 20:31 >To: >Subj: [NSP] Re: Choyting - possible source of word and Plaid > >On 25 Aug 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> I liked the idea that some one had that Clough thought that some >> players of the small pipes sounded like pit canaries used to test for >> firedamp. > >My recollection is that this came from Thomas Todd (1827-1903) - and >in essence was that canaries choyte but larks don't. But I can't find >the reference. > >I've checked Griffiths recent "Pitmatic" book and the word's not in >there, though most of his sources were the Durham end of the >coalfield, and there is considerable variation. > >I think what we want is one of the several C19 collections of local >words. I'll see if I can get to Central Library. > >Julia > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > How safe is your email? - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/securemail __
[NSP] Re: Choyting - possible source of word and Plaid
On 25 Aug 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I liked the idea that some one had that Clough thought that some > players of the small pipes sounded like pit canaries used to test for > firedamp. My recollection is that this came from Thomas Todd (1827-1903) - and in essence was that canaries choyte but larks don't. But I can't find the reference. I've checked Griffiths recent "Pitmatic" book and the word's not in there, though most of his sources were the Durham end of the coalfield, and there is considerable variation. I think what we want is one of the several C19 collections of local words. I'll see if I can get to Central Library. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] more choyting on 'choyte'
This conversation, with it's figgleligee , provoked a perusal of my foxed copy of Jameson's Dictionary of the Scottish Language (Aberdeen: 1867). The word 'quyte' means "to skate or play upon the ice as with curling stones". Depending on one's style of choyting, choyting might be considered a skating from note to note without stopping. Because it is a pleasant image it probably has not relation to "choyte". Also, of possible interest is the entry for "chowl" or "chool", which means "to whine or cry", "applied to dogs or children, Fife," and also "it always includes the idea that they have no good reason for their whining." This might be related, if only distantly, to the Pitmatic "choyte". Perhaps it is a Pitmatic reiteration of a Fifian word brought south by some Scottish miner. The subjects of the kingdom of Fife are notorious for many things, including unintelligibility, even after Mr. Carnegie built all those libraries. This being a Scottish book it's relevance, to say nothing of its authority, is questionable. However, if not enlightening, I hope the information above is at least entertaining. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Choyting - possible source of word and Plaid
As one who is married to a Scot and being half Scotch myself I am familiar with the 'choocter' (teuchter) word which I was told referred to sound of the Gaelic language spoken in Glasgow by all the Highlanders and Islanders who came looking for work. It was thought to sound like chooky birds (hens) making a noise. I liked the idea that some one had that Clough thought that some players of the small pipes sounded like pit canaries used to test for firedamp. The sound is more like 'oi' than 'oo' hence 'choyte' rather than 'chook' comparing canaries with chickens. The Ovingham pipers in blue and white could be adapted to the blue suit with white silk scarf as a modern take on the costume. Colin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:32 Subject: [NSP] Choyting - possible source of word and Plaid Hi all, For several years my father was at sea with a mixed crew of Hebridean Islanders and other Scots. Apparently the scots refered to the Islander as 'choochters' (chew- k-ters) not sure of spelling; this is an aural history. The name described the babbling nature of the island Gaelic speech. It seems likely therefore that either lowland scots dialect or urban scots slang would be a likely source of the word.I do not believe that it was a term of endearment!Perhaps some one married to a Scot could seek enlightenment. In a book referring to the Ovingham goose fair (early 19th century) reference is made to the Duke's pipers playing in blue with a white sash. Perhaps we can adopt the Carlisle strip as traditional garb?Malcolm AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today.--! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. --
[NSP] Re: Choyting - possible source of word and Plaid
Not wanting to be left out, here's my twopence worth.. could it be pronounced coyte, or quoit? Quoit (?), n. [OE. coite; cf. OF. coitier to spur, press, (assumed) LL. coctare, fr. L. coquere, coctum, to cook, burn, vex, harass, E. cook, also W. coete a quoit.] I particularly like the references to vex and harass ; -- Anita To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Choyting - possible source of word and Plaid
The teuchter is a derisive name for a highlander - DSL - SND1 TEUCHTER, n. A term of disparagement or contempt used in Central Scotland for a Highlander, esp. one speaking Gaelic, or anyone from the North, an uncouth, countrified person (Cai., e. and wm.Sc. 1972), jocularly also applied to animals. Also attrib. [tjuxtr] However the term choyt may well be derived from the the term Cheit - DSL - DOST Chet(e, Cheit(t, n. [ME. chete (late 14th c.), reduced form of ESCHETE.] The taking away of possessions by forfeiture - as such the loss of one notes time by another note would fit with such teminology DSL - DOST Eschete, Escheit, Escheat, n. Also: escheite, es(s)cheitt, eschiet, -eet, esheit; escaete, eschaet(e, eschait; echeat, esheat; eschet(t, echet, eshet; asschet, aschaet(e, -eitt, -eat. [e.m.E. and ME. escheate, eschete (ME. also echete, eshete, eschet), AF. and OF. eschete, eschaete, f. OF. escheoir, to fall to one's share.] 1. Property, possessions, or goods taken from a person by forfeiture or confiscation, esp. falling to the king in this way. Roots are an awfull thing when you start digging them up - you will also no doubt have come across the derisive term for English speakers Sassenach - DSL - SND1 SASSENACH, adj., n. Also Sassanoch, -enagh, Sasennach, -unnach; the form in the 1706 quot. represents the Gael.pl. Sasunnaich. English, English-speaking, formerly also applied to the Lowlanders of Scotland; as a n., an Englishman or -woman. The word was orig. put in the mouths only of Highlanders but is now in somewhat jocular use throughout Scotland. [ssnx] "REf - Credit to the Dictionary of Scottish Language" Richard - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 4:32 PM Subject: [NSP] Choyting - possible source of word and Plaid > Hi all, > For several years my father was at sea with a mixed crew of Hebridean > Islanders and other Scots. > Apparently the scots refered to the Islander as 'choochters' (chew- > k-ters) not sure of spelling; this is an aural history. > The name described the babbling nature of the island Gaelic speech. > It seems likely therefore that either lowland scots dialect or urban scots > slang would be a likely source of the word. > > I do not believe that it was a term of endearment! > > Perhaps some one married to a Scot could seek enlightenment. > > In a book referring to the Ovingham goose fair (early 19th century) > reference is made to the Duke's pipers playing in blue with a white sash. > Perhaps we can adopt the Carlisle strip as traditional garb? > > Malcolm > > AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the > move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[NSP] Re: Choyting - possible source of word and Plaid
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, For several years my father was at sea with a mixed crew of Hebridean Islanders and other Scots. Apparently the scots refered to the Islander as 'choochters' (chew- k-ters) not sure of spelling; this is an aural history. The name described the babbling nature of the island Gaelic speech. It seems likely therefore that either lowland scots dialect or urban scots slang would be a likely source of the word. You can find some background (and dubious thoughts on origins) of "teuchter" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teuchter and http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teuchter Ian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Choyting - possible source of word and Plaid
Hi all, For several years my father was at sea with a mixed crew of Hebridean Islanders and other Scots. Apparently the scots refered to the Islander as 'choochters' (chew- k-ters) not sure of spelling; this is an aural history. The name described the babbling nature of the island Gaelic speech. It seems likely therefore that either lowland scots dialect or urban scots slang would be a likely source of the word. I do not believe that it was a term of endearment! Perhaps some one married to a Scot could seek enlightenment. In a book referring to the Ovingham goose fair (early 19th century) reference is made to the Duke's pipers playing in blue with a white sash. Perhaps we can adopt the Carlisle strip as traditional garb? Malcolm AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
As a foreigner, I would like to know how "choyte" is pronounced. Like "boy"? or "boat"? or with two syllables? Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
On 8/25/08 9:03 AM, "Matt Seattle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Following from this and Ian Lawther's remarks on Chris Ormston at >Killington, I would venture the heretical and dangerously unpopular >view that an 'average' musically literate audience is more educated and >open-minded than an 'average' piper. I do think there is a place for >'piping-as-social-inclusion' but I also despise the inverted snobbery >that sometimes goes along with it. A more realistic attitude recognises >excellence as a desirable and praiseworthy goal, even if only attained >by a few. Two pennies from a lurker Having seen many of the North Hero/Killington concerts up close, I must agree with Ian's and (some of) Matt's comments. In concerts over the years, both Chris and Matt have provided what I'd label as "social inclusion" tunes (e.g., "Stranger on the Shore" and "Hey Jude") that have brought smiles to the faces of both the general audience and the piping audience. However, I've seen the non-piper audiences respond with great pleasure and joy to variation sets; partly because of astonishment that anyone could play so many notes so fast (and clean) but also, from my perspective, how the imagination and talent of the musicians could deconstruct and reconstruct the tune, keeping it recognizable, in so many ways, thereby keeping it interesting - and indeed challenging. I can't go so far as to suggest that the average general audience at the Gathering is "more educated and open-minded" than the average piper there, but maybe that's because the event draws a higher class of piper But I will agree that the average audience is not necessarily put off by a musically coherent variation set. There have been a few instances of "because I can" sets (not, of course, by anyone mentioned here or readers of this list) that got to be pretty dry, sterile examples of digital dexterity with minimal residual musicality, but those have been far between - and frankly I think both the pipers and the audience recognized them for what they were. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Best wishes. Steve To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Sheila wrote (in answer to my): >> playing a full set of satisfying >variations is the most fun one can have . . . >> > >But for the audience, most frequently, this can seem like the most >boring performance of an endless set of technical exercises. Following from this and Ian Lawther's remarks on Chris Ormston at Killington, I would venture the heretical and dangerously unpopular view that an 'average' musically literate audience is more educated and open-minded than an 'average' piper. I do think there is a place for 'piping-as-social-inclusion' but I also despise the inverted snobbery that sometimes goes along with it. A more realistic attitude recognises excellence as a desirable and praiseworthy goal, even if only attained by a few. I think it was Matt S who wrote somewhere that "if 9 note tunes with variations are not your cup of tea, there are plenty of other brews available". I hope I haven't misquoted him It sounds like the sort of thing he would say, Julia. There are other brews, but if you ignore the variation repertoire of the NSP you are left with a pretty inefficient fiddle-substitute. As for choyting,,, There is a misperception of the role of 'grace notes' in GHB playing. Many of them are not ornaments but articulations, and paradoxically serve the same purpose as the tiny silences between notes on NSP, bow changes on fiddle, plectrum strokes on guitar etc. As a listener and onlooker I don't get as worked up about choyting as a smallpiper. As with Border piping, I regard articulation as part of technique, necessary as an area of focus for the player but unhealthy as an obsession, especially if pursued at the expense of rhythm, musical sense, and playing really good tunes. -- References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
>Also being in the Folk genre doesn't mean 'anything goes'. Hear hear hear hear hear, and so on. This point cannot be emphasised enough. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
Boyden of course is not the last word in research on the history of violin playing. I gather from other sources that not all old bows were shorter, even though such authorities as Jaap Schroeder continue to state that they were. Don't get me wrong, I have the greatest respect for Jaap as both a human being and a musician, but he is one of the many who cling to ideas that emerged in the early days of the early music revival - such as the idea that stringing was generally at a (much) lower tension. Any one interested could do worse than czech out what Ephraim Segerman has to say here: [1]http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/About.html and elsewhere. Particularly telling is the statement "The historical information has been very useful to some, but most use more modern stringing because the traditions of the early-music movement developed before the research was done." (my emphasis) Mersenne recommended using a long bow (though doesn't specify how long), and I think Boyden himself quotes some authority as saying that short bows were for tavern musicians (prost!). Certainly, a number of my "baroque bows" - copied from early 18th century originals in the Ashmolean collection - are more or less the same length as modern bows. Maybe the detached style was the string players in turn adapting to the articulation of the keyboards. And of course, you can detach with a modern bow too. chirs >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[2]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 2:38 PM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; BIRCH Christopher (DGT) >Subject: Re: [NSP] The great choyte debate redux > >On 22 Aug 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> I remember reading somewhere (possibly in Boyden's book on >the history >> of violin playing,) > >From the same book, which I'm currently reading / ploughing through, >I have bookmarked a small paragraph which remarks (of violinists in >the C17), that the old bows (which were shorter) meant that notes >were on the whole clearly articulated (approx. = detached, from the >context) in comparison with C19 playing where the long legato bow >stroke was regarded as desirable. > >I'm simplifying here, obviously. > >However it set me to wondering whether there were connections between >the articulated style of the violinists / fiddlers of the period and >the articulation of the closed chanter, developing about the same >time (as far as we know). > >Food for thought, anyway. > >Julia > -- References 1. http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/About.html 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
> >Maybe we should regard the odd 'ornamental' choyte in the same >way - the >beginning of a slippery slope. > >But let him who is without sin And of course Pärt chose to write the piece. So maybe we can assume that like the rest of us he's a bit partial to a bit of sin now and again ;-) Don't know the piece in question, but I'm otherwise a big Pärt fan. Estonia for the ears. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
