[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)

[rosspipes]

I have had it brought to my attention that it was the REEL of Tullochgorum?that 
was in question. The renaming of tunes of tunes due to ignorance or wilfulness 
has been something that has gone on for hundreds of years. Just look at our 
Peacock Follows the Hen, known as Mad Moll,etc, since Elizabethan times. I am 
sure that Matt could fill a book with examples he has found in his researches.


To find the original composer of the tune that is known as Jimmy Allan would be 
of real interest which may come thru finding out who it was that re-named it.


I admit to misunderstanding the point being raised but lets face it even the 
title REEL of Tullochgorum is misleading as a title as the tune is a RANT and 
not a reel so he mustn't have been a bright spark to have called it that, but 
there again a Scots hornpipe is not a hornpipe as we know it in Northumberland.


Colin R










-Original Message-

From: Barry Say 

To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu

Sent: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:41

Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)





I quote from my original posting,--The Reel of 
Tullochgorum is almost certainly the same tune but is   reckoned to be in D. It 
was published by Ian Powrie, apparently in   the late 1950s and it seems that 
he claimed that it was a traditional tune which he had collected. Ian lived 
in Perthshire - so that is the first place we would suspect.
---  The Reel of Tullochgorum is nothing like the 
tune Tulloch Goram which   appears in the Peacock Collection, nor is it the 
reel of Tulloch. I   never suggested it was. It seems probable that some 
Northumbrian   musician heard it, stole it and renamed it to disguise its 
origins.   These are techniques handed down to us by the Border Riever.
Peter Kennedy collected tunes in the North East of England in the   1940s '50s 
and '60s and I would suggest that this was the route into   the wider English 
Folk Culture. Since he did not include it in the   first two volumes of!
  the Fiddler's Tune Book, I venture to suggest he   was unaware of it when he 
compiled these.Barry  On 12 Jan 2009 at 11:41, rosspi...@aol.com 
wrote:> Er, excuse me but am I being a bit thick here or maybe 
intellectually  > challenged in not finding any connection between the tune 
Jimmy Allan  > and Tullochgorum. First of all they are a different rhythm 
and  > secondly the chord structure is different and then basically they do  
> not even sound similar. I would have said that Winster Gallop is  > 
nearer but is still different. Is it a case of the emperor's new  > clothes 
where you have to agree with the hypothesis to be seen to be  > with it in 
finding the similarity even though it is against common  > sense?  >   
>   > I would agree that the origin of the tune is shrouded in mystery 
and  > it does seem to be a 'modern' tune and not? contemporanious with the  
> subject. Now there is something that would be worth inv!
 estigating.  >   >   > Colin R  >   >   >   !
 >   &

gt;   >   >   >   >   >   > -Original Message-  >  
 > From: Barry Say   >   > To: nsp 
  >   > Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:17  >   
> Subject: [NSP] Jimmy Allan traditional (?)  >   >   >   >   
>   > Hi All,This is a follow-up to an earlier e-mail.As editor 
of  > the NPS Magazine, I was well aware of the content of   Chris Ormston's 
 > article well before the NPS membership or the wider   piping  > 
community. I refrained from commenting on it or saying   anything  > related 
to it until the magazine was published. However, it   set me  > thinking. As 
an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which   would  > serve as initial 
targets for beginner pipers.In the course of  > this, Jimmy Allan sprang 
to mind, but I found that   it did not appear  > in the Peacock Collection, 
Bewick Book, or the   Vickers collection  > and!
  to my surprise, it did not appear in the first   edition of the  > 
Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the   Fiddler's  > 
Tunebook(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy.Peter Kennedy was a  > pivotal 
figure in the traditional music scene in   the 1950s and 60s  > and worked 
extensively in the North-East and is   probably the person  > most 
responsible for making the music of the !  >North-East of England 
available to the whole of England in that>period. I do not intend 
this as either praise or criticism.I  >had always assumed  from its 
name that it was part of the>Northumbrian tradition, but I am 
beginning to suspect that we have   > been deceived by our own 
willingness to believe that which seems>convenient.The tune as 
we know it appears in the EFDSS  >Community dance manual   volume 6 on a 
page with two tunes composed  >in 1961. The copyright   dates would 
indicate that it w!
 as publised  >in 1964 or 1967. I c

[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)

[Barry Say]

If anyone is interested they can see a version of the Reel of 
Tullochgorum at:

http://www.nigelgatherer.com/tunes/tab/tab9/reelt.html

Does anyone on this list have access to any music collections which 
may contain  

'Ian Powrie's Selection of Scottish Country Dance Tunes' published by 
Mozart Allan, Glasgow (probably in the late 1950s)  

I don't think we should get too hung up about names.
Sir Charles Rant is in 6/8 in the Peacock collection, 
Whinham's Reel  is not a reel 
Winshield's Hornpipe (?).

If Ian Powrie is content to call it the Reel of Tullochgorum that's 
fine by me. Perhaps he played it with a gob-stopper rhythm. He is 
well respected in the Scottish Dance Band world, so I think we should 
have a little respect for his reputation.

Referring back to the earlier thread, I think Anthony Robb's point in 
the magazine was that it is possible to play some tunes as either a 
rant or a reel and he thought it important to choose the appropriate 
rhythm when playing in competition.

Barry Say


> 
> I admit to misunderstanding the point being raised but lets face it
> even the title REEL of Tullochgorum is misleading as a title as the
> tune is a RANT and not a reel so he mustn't have been a bright spark
> to have called it that, but there again a Scots hornpipe is not a
> hornpipe as we know it in Northumberland.
> 
> 
> Colin R



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)

[Julia . Say]

The NPS has a scrapbook of tunes submitted by members for both the 
first (1936) and second editions (1970) of the first tunebook, mostly 
duplicated - they were circulated to members for the first edition - 
but some are in MS.
In some cases, composers autograph MS copies.

I've just been going through it in pursuit of something else (which 
wasn't there either)

Jimmy Allan first appears in the 2nd edition collection, written out 
by hand - I think by Colin since the writing is different to that of 
an autograph MS of Forster's - and seems familiar!

So no help there, I'm afraid - that part of the book was compiled in 
the 60s.
But absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, of course.

Ian Powrie himself is still with us, I believe - surely the logical 
thing is to contact him and see if he has any details of where the 
tune was collected, and if so, was it called "Reel of Tullochgorum" 
by whoever it was collected from.

His influence on music introduced into Northumberland can be seen 
from his discographies - to mention but one, "Sands of Murness" is 
one of his tunes too and that's certainly been brought over by a 
piper.

HTH
Julia



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)

[rosspipes]

?




Please sir, what is a 'gob-stopper' rhythm? If it is anything to do with tomato 
soup I think I may be sick.


I had never seen that D version of the tune before but I now have a strong 
suspicion that Powrie had something to do with it most likely as the composer 
as it is a very good dance tune whether it is called a reel or a rant. I have 
respect for his ability as a dance band leader but I bet he could be just as 
devious in naming tunes as our own Jack?Armstrong. It?would be?curious however 
that if he did compose?Jimmy Allan that he did not collect royalties on it as 
it must be one of the most popular tunes to come out in living memory. If he 
had 'collected' it why was it that the composer did not notice that it was 
climbing up the charts and that the NPS had printed it without paying 
royalties: maybe it was a tune over fifty years old.


Hmm.


Colin R










-Original Message-

From: Barry Say 

To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu

Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:54

Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)





If anyone is interested they can see a version of the Reel of   Tullochgorum 
at:http://www.nigelgatherer.com/tunes/tab/tab9/reelt.htmlDoes anyone on 
this list have access to any music collections which   may contain  'Ian 
Powrie's Selection of Scottish Country Dance Tunes' published by   Mozart 
Allan, Glasgow (probably in the late 1950s)  I don't think we should get 
too hung up about names.  Sir Charles Rant is in 6/8 in the Peacock collection, 
  Whinham's Reel  is not a reel   Winshield's Hornpipe (?).If Ian Powrie is 
content to call it the Reel of Tullochgorum that's   fine by me. Perhaps he 
played it with a gob-stopper rhythm. He is   well respected in the Scottish 
Dance Band world, so I think we should   have a little respect for his 
reputation.Referring back to the earlier thread, I think Anthony Robb's 
point in   the magazine was that it is possible to play some tunes as either a  
 rant or a reel and he thought it important to choose the appropr!
 iate   rhythm when playing in competition.Barry Say  >   > I 
admit to misunderstanding the point being raised but lets face it  > even 
the title REEL of Tullochgorum is misleading as a title as the  > tune is a 
RANT and not a reel so he mustn't have been a bright spark  > to have called 
it that, but there again a Scots hornpipe is not a  > hornpipe as we know it 
in Northumberland.  >   >   > Colin RTo get on or off this 
list see list information at  
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. 
Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today.



AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. 
Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today.

--

[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)

[John_Dally]

   Barry Say wrote:
   "Referring back to the earlier thread, I think Anthony Robb's point in
   the magazine was that it is possible to play some tunes as either a
   rant or a reel and he thought it important to choose the appropriate
   rhythm when playing in competition."
   If we have determined anything in this thread it's that there are
   varying opinions, even among judges, as to what is a rant and what is a
   reel, and that the title of a tune doesn't necessarily tell you what it
   is.  There must be some tunes that can be played appropriately with the
   "to-MAto soup" rhythm (the light went on when it was pointed out where
   the down beat falls--thank you) or the "GOB stopper" rhythm.  If
   someone could point out a definitive recording of a rant in the
   discography of NSP music, I would greatly appreciate it.
   As for "Jamie Allen", it seems natural that the names of tunes and the
   way they are played would change over time, especially in a musical
   culture where ear-playing is common.  Joe Hutton didn't play "The
   Cameron Highlanders", which is also known as "Henderson's March" (I
   think), the way Highland pipers do, but it's the same tune and it's
   still a march.  I once heard a busker near Seattle playing old time
   American music suddenly jump into "Jimmy Allen".  Unfortunately, I
   didn't get a chance to ask him where he learned it.  Perhaps it appears
   on an old A.L. Lloyd or Ewen MacColl recording.
   Once again, Barry, thanks for a great edition of the NPS Magazine.  I
   didn't have to play the usual drinking game to get through it, and the
   last few pages of email humor had me laughing out loud.
   all the best,
   John --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Reel of t

[Dave S]

Hi all, the song  whose last line was "the reel of tullochgorum" was 
writ by non-other than the Rev John Skinner way back in "the good 
ol'days - 1721-1807. There may just be a tie in to smallpipes because 
the first line is Come gie's a sang Montgomery cried - ie the 
Montgomery set ---


have fun


Dave Singleton



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Reel of t

[Barry Say]

Hi Dave,

You are perfectly correct and the words fit perfectly to the tune 
Tullochgorum which appears in the Peacock collection 180?. So that 
all ties together. The Reel of Tullochgorum / Jimmy Allen tune is 
entirely different but I don't want to revisit that one just now.

Barry




On 13 Jan 2009 at 23:15, Dave S wrote:

> Hi all, the song  whose last line was "the reel of tullochgorum" was
> writ by non-other than the Rev John Skinner way back in "the good
> ol'days - 1721-1807. There may just be a tie in to smallpipes because
> the first line is Come gie's a sang Montgomery cried - ie the
> Montgomery set ---
> 
> have fun
> 
> 
> Dave Singleton
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Reel of t

[GibbonsSoinne]

   Are you saying these words



   'Come gie's a sang Montgomery cried ...'



   fit the 'Reel of Tullochgorum' tune (they do) or the ex-strathspey
   that's found in Peacock (they fit that too).



   The difference between gobstopper and tomato soup is obscured by the
   stress of the verse.



   John





   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Reel of t

[GibbonsSoinne]

   SMM has the strathspey tune - see
   [1]http://www.burnsscotland.com/database/record.php?usi=000-000-499-837
   -C&PHPSESSID=mogu4k310q5f4sje49tpggju04&scache=1i8i6q4yll&searchdb=scra
   n





   --

References

   1. 
http://www.burnsscotland.com/database/record.php?usi=000-000-499-837-C&PHPSESSID=mogu4k310q5f4sje49tpggju04&scache=1i8i6q4yll&searchdb=scran


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Reel of Tullochgorum

[richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk]

Hi All,

There's a print in the collection of National Museums Scotland that 
may be of interest:

http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-579-620-C

Richard



50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security 





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

[Honor Hill]

Interesting that his bellows are under his left arm, rather than his right. 
Could he be left handed or is the print backwards, I wonder.
Honor H.

-Original Message-
From: richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk [mailto:richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:21 PM
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Reel of Tullochgorum

Hi All,

There's a print in the collection of National Museums Scotland that 
may be of interest:

http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-579-620-C

Richard



50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security 





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html