[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)
I have had it brought to my attention that it was the REEL of Tullochgorum?that was in question. The renaming of tunes of tunes due to ignorance or wilfulness has been something that has gone on for hundreds of years. Just look at our Peacock Follows the Hen, known as Mad Moll,etc, since Elizabethan times. I am sure that Matt could fill a book with examples he has found in his researches. To find the original composer of the tune that is known as Jimmy Allan would be of real interest which may come thru finding out who it was that re-named it. I admit to misunderstanding the point being raised but lets face it even the title REEL of Tullochgorum is misleading as a title as the tune is a RANT and not a reel so he mustn't have been a bright spark to have called it that, but there again a Scots hornpipe is not a hornpipe as we know it in Northumberland. Colin R -Original Message- From: Barry SayTo: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:41 Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?) I quote from my original posting,--The Reel of Tullochgorum is almost certainly the same tune but is reckoned to be in D. It was published by Ian Powrie, apparently in the late 1950s and it seems that he claimed that it was a traditional tune which he had collected. Ian lived in Perthshire - so that is the first place we would suspect. --- The Reel of Tullochgorum is nothing like the tune Tulloch Goram which appears in the Peacock Collection, nor is it the reel of Tulloch. I never suggested it was. It seems probable that some Northumbrian musician heard it, stole it and renamed it to disguise its origins. These are techniques handed down to us by the Border Riever. Peter Kennedy collected tunes in the North East of England in the 1940s '50s and '60s and I would suggest that this was the route into the wider English Folk Culture. Since he did not include it in the first two volumes of! the Fiddler's Tune Book, I venture to suggest he was unaware of it when he compiled these.Barry On 12 Jan 2009 at 11:41, rosspi...@aol.com wrote:> Er, excuse me but am I being a bit thick here or maybe intellectually > challenged in not finding any connection between the tune Jimmy Allan > and Tullochgorum. First of all they are a different rhythm and > secondly the chord structure is different and then basically they do > not even sound similar. I would have said that Winster Gallop is > nearer but is still different. Is it a case of the emperor's new > clothes where you have to agree with the hypothesis to be seen to be > with it in finding the similarity even though it is against common > sense? > > > I would agree that the origin of the tune is shrouded in mystery and > it does seem to be a 'modern' tune and not? contemporanious with the > subject. Now there is something that would be worth inv! estigating. > > > Colin R > > > ! > & gt; > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Barry Say > > To: nsp > > Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:17 > > Subject: [NSP] Jimmy Allan traditional (?) > > > > > > Hi All,This is a follow-up to an earlier e-mail.As editor of > the NPS Magazine, I was well aware of the content of Chris Ormston's > article well before the NPS membership or the wider piping > community. I refrained from commenting on it or saying anything > related to it until the magazine was published. However, it set me > thinking. As an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which would > serve as initial targets for beginner pipers.In the course of > this, Jimmy Allan sprang to mind, but I found that it did not appear > in the Peacock Collection, Bewick Book, or the Vickers collection > and! to my surprise, it did not appear in the first edition of the > Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the Fiddler's > Tunebook(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy.Peter Kennedy was a > pivotal figure in the traditional music scene in the 1950s and 60s > and worked extensively in the North-East and is probably the person > most responsible for making the music of the ! >North-East of England available to the whole of England in that>period. I do not intend this as either praise or criticism.I >had always assumed from its name that it was part of the>Northumbrian tradition, but I am beginning to suspect that we have > been deceived by our own willingness to believe that which seems>convenient.The tune as we know it appears in the EFDSS >Community dance manual volume 6 on a page with two tunes composed >in 1961. The copyright dates would indicate that it w! as publised >in 1964 or 1967. I c
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)
If anyone is interested they can see a version of the Reel of Tullochgorum at: http://www.nigelgatherer.com/tunes/tab/tab9/reelt.html Does anyone on this list have access to any music collections which may contain 'Ian Powrie's Selection of Scottish Country Dance Tunes' published by Mozart Allan, Glasgow (probably in the late 1950s) I don't think we should get too hung up about names. Sir Charles Rant is in 6/8 in the Peacock collection, Whinham's Reel is not a reel Winshield's Hornpipe (?). If Ian Powrie is content to call it the Reel of Tullochgorum that's fine by me. Perhaps he played it with a gob-stopper rhythm. He is well respected in the Scottish Dance Band world, so I think we should have a little respect for his reputation. Referring back to the earlier thread, I think Anthony Robb's point in the magazine was that it is possible to play some tunes as either a rant or a reel and he thought it important to choose the appropriate rhythm when playing in competition. Barry Say > > I admit to misunderstanding the point being raised but lets face it > even the title REEL of Tullochgorum is misleading as a title as the > tune is a RANT and not a reel so he mustn't have been a bright spark > to have called it that, but there again a Scots hornpipe is not a > hornpipe as we know it in Northumberland. > > > Colin R To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)
The NPS has a scrapbook of tunes submitted by members for both the first (1936) and second editions (1970) of the first tunebook, mostly duplicated - they were circulated to members for the first edition - but some are in MS. In some cases, composers autograph MS copies. I've just been going through it in pursuit of something else (which wasn't there either) Jimmy Allan first appears in the 2nd edition collection, written out by hand - I think by Colin since the writing is different to that of an autograph MS of Forster's - and seems familiar! So no help there, I'm afraid - that part of the book was compiled in the 60s. But absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, of course. Ian Powrie himself is still with us, I believe - surely the logical thing is to contact him and see if he has any details of where the tune was collected, and if so, was it called "Reel of Tullochgorum" by whoever it was collected from. His influence on music introduced into Northumberland can be seen from his discographies - to mention but one, "Sands of Murness" is one of his tunes too and that's certainly been brought over by a piper. HTH Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)
? Please sir, what is a 'gob-stopper' rhythm? If it is anything to do with tomato soup I think I may be sick. I had never seen that D version of the tune before but I now have a strong suspicion that Powrie had something to do with it most likely as the composer as it is a very good dance tune whether it is called a reel or a rant. I have respect for his ability as a dance band leader but I bet he could be just as devious in naming tunes as our own Jack?Armstrong. It?would be?curious however that if he did compose?Jimmy Allan that he did not collect royalties on it as it must be one of the most popular tunes to come out in living memory. If he had 'collected' it why was it that the composer did not notice that it was climbing up the charts and that the NPS had printed it without paying royalties: maybe it was a tune over fifty years old. Hmm. Colin R -Original Message- From: Barry SayTo: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:54 Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?) If anyone is interested they can see a version of the Reel of Tullochgorum at:http://www.nigelgatherer.com/tunes/tab/tab9/reelt.htmlDoes anyone on this list have access to any music collections which may contain 'Ian Powrie's Selection of Scottish Country Dance Tunes' published by Mozart Allan, Glasgow (probably in the late 1950s) I don't think we should get too hung up about names. Sir Charles Rant is in 6/8 in the Peacock collection, Whinham's Reel is not a reel Winshield's Hornpipe (?).If Ian Powrie is content to call it the Reel of Tullochgorum that's fine by me. Perhaps he played it with a gob-stopper rhythm. He is well respected in the Scottish Dance Band world, so I think we should have a little respect for his reputation.Referring back to the earlier thread, I think Anthony Robb's point in the magazine was that it is possible to play some tunes as either a rant or a reel and he thought it important to choose the appropr! iate rhythm when playing in competition.Barry Say > > I admit to misunderstanding the point being raised but lets face it > even the title REEL of Tullochgorum is misleading as a title as the > tune is a RANT and not a reel so he mustn't have been a bright spark > to have called it that, but there again a Scots hornpipe is not a > hornpipe as we know it in Northumberland. > > > Colin RTo get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. --
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)
Barry Say wrote: "Referring back to the earlier thread, I think Anthony Robb's point in the magazine was that it is possible to play some tunes as either a rant or a reel and he thought it important to choose the appropriate rhythm when playing in competition." If we have determined anything in this thread it's that there are varying opinions, even among judges, as to what is a rant and what is a reel, and that the title of a tune doesn't necessarily tell you what it is. There must be some tunes that can be played appropriately with the "to-MAto soup" rhythm (the light went on when it was pointed out where the down beat falls--thank you) or the "GOB stopper" rhythm. If someone could point out a definitive recording of a rant in the discography of NSP music, I would greatly appreciate it. As for "Jamie Allen", it seems natural that the names of tunes and the way they are played would change over time, especially in a musical culture where ear-playing is common. Joe Hutton didn't play "The Cameron Highlanders", which is also known as "Henderson's March" (I think), the way Highland pipers do, but it's the same tune and it's still a march. I once heard a busker near Seattle playing old time American music suddenly jump into "Jimmy Allen". Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to ask him where he learned it. Perhaps it appears on an old A.L. Lloyd or Ewen MacColl recording. Once again, Barry, thanks for a great edition of the NPS Magazine. I didn't have to play the usual drinking game to get through it, and the last few pages of email humor had me laughing out loud. all the best, John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Reel of t
Hi all, the song whose last line was "the reel of tullochgorum" was writ by non-other than the Rev John Skinner way back in "the good ol'days - 1721-1807. There may just be a tie in to smallpipes because the first line is Come gie's a sang Montgomery cried - ie the Montgomery set --- have fun Dave Singleton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
Hi Dave, You are perfectly correct and the words fit perfectly to the tune Tullochgorum which appears in the Peacock collection 180?. So that all ties together. The Reel of Tullochgorum / Jimmy Allen tune is entirely different but I don't want to revisit that one just now. Barry On 13 Jan 2009 at 23:15, Dave S wrote: > Hi all, the song whose last line was "the reel of tullochgorum" was > writ by non-other than the Rev John Skinner way back in "the good > ol'days - 1721-1807. There may just be a tie in to smallpipes because > the first line is Come gie's a sang Montgomery cried - ie the > Montgomery set --- > > have fun > > > Dave Singleton > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
Are you saying these words 'Come gie's a sang Montgomery cried ...' fit the 'Reel of Tullochgorum' tune (they do) or the ex-strathspey that's found in Peacock (they fit that too). The difference between gobstopper and tomato soup is obscured by the stress of the verse. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
SMM has the strathspey tune - see [1]http://www.burnsscotland.com/database/record.php?usi=000-000-499-837 -C&PHPSESSID=mogu4k310q5f4sje49tpggju04&scache=1i8i6q4yll&searchdb=scra n -- References 1. http://www.burnsscotland.com/database/record.php?usi=000-000-499-837-C&PHPSESSID=mogu4k310q5f4sje49tpggju04&scache=1i8i6q4yll&searchdb=scran To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Reel of Tullochgorum
Hi All, There's a print in the collection of National Museums Scotland that may be of interest: http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-579-620-C Richard 50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
Interesting that his bellows are under his left arm, rather than his right. Could he be left handed or is the print backwards, I wonder. Honor H. -Original Message- From: richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk [mailto:richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:21 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Reel of Tullochgorum Hi All, There's a print in the collection of National Museums Scotland that may be of interest: http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-579-620-C Richard 50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html