[NSP] Re: Intonation
Thanks so much, John, Francis, I'll try climbing out of the ravine today. Colin On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 8:11 PM, John Liestman <[1]j...@liestman.com> wrote: Francis, you must have the earlier "pre-plateau" version! I have posted a pdf file version at [2]http://www.liestman.com/plateau.pdf for anyone to read that is so inclined. It is called "Drone Reeds and the Plateau of Stability" but it is truly the plateau of happiness if you can achieve it! Let me know if for some reason the link does not work and I will just email you (whoever "you" are . . . or is) a copy. Happy droning on the plateau! On 1/11/2011 12:18 PM, Francis Wood wrote: Colin, are you using composite drone reeds or all-cane ones? Adjustment techniques will, of course differ. Whatever you're using, I'd check the drone itself as a priority, checking that everything is sealing correctly (tuning beads are often suspect), that the bore is clean and smooth, and that the tone hole is entirely free of any invisible debris or excess lubrication, which often accumulates invisibly there. Any of these deficiencies will cause instability. I have John Liestman's excellent book, but probably an earlier version than the one you mentioned, since I can't find the reed advice on those or adjacent pages. I do recall reading John's remarks about the parameters of stability (I think he calls that area the 'Plateau of Happiness' or something similar) and this may be in a subsequent edition or even in an NPS Magazine article. It's very good information. Of course, it is one thing to adjust a good reed and an entirely different matter to spend ages on a drone reed that does not work well and never will. Unfortunately some drone reeds are not worthy of that attention. Pitch of almost any woodwind reed will rise with pressure. The ideal reed behaviour for NSPs is one where pitch changes relatively little, and evenly, with all drone reeds and the chanter reed behaving similarly. That's a rare but not impossible situation, requiring not only skill but luck. I suspect that as much success comes from knowing when to reject a reed, as knowing when and how to adjust it. Francis On 11 Jan 2011, at 12:40, Colin and Cheryl McNaught wrote: Following on from these sage comments, does anyone have ideas about what causes some drones to be significantly more pressure sensitive than others. By this I mean their pitch varies more for a given change in bag pressure. Once they are adjusted for pitch and pressure there doesn't seem to be anything else to tweak without spoiling the pitch/pressure set-ups. I have a set that is very stable and another that has a couple of drones that aren't and would like to improve them. I always try to play other pipe sets when at NSP get-togethers and it's been my experience that every set I have played has some quirky notes. I'm sure there's a reed dependency in this too. Making small (often unconscious) adjustments in bag pressure seems to be a part of playing this instrument well (just as embouchure adjustments on, e.g. oboe, flute). Consequently, a set of drones that is more stable can result in a 'sweeter' end result than one that isn't. Colin (McNaught) On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM,<[1][3]gibbonssoi...@aol.com> wrote: As many notes on an NSP chanter can be bent about a quarter tone without putting the drones far out - at least on a good reed day - I guess one difference between a good piper and a fairly good one is the former will squeeze notes into tune unconsciously and accurately, the latter consciously and only fairly accurately. I often think of singing the note, so I have an idea of the pitch in my head, to aim for. Listening to the chord with the drones - if these are in tune - also helps with some notes. It is the notes that harmonise with the drones which are most exposed if out of tune, so recognising a just 3rd or whatever tells you you've got there. The singing trick doesn't work so well if you are still thinking equal-tempered, mind. So chords are better. Long notes are good practice for this - I wonder if this is one reason Tom Clough liked playing hymn tunes? 'Oh God our Help in Ages Past' (aka St Anne, or 'The Goldfish') is a good one for this, dead slow. I sometimes use this to see if the drones are 'really' in
[NSP] Re: Shape notes
I think the point is that untrained ear singers may have a better ear for intervals than for absolute pitch. The shapes are an indication of the interval between the note to be sung and the tonic or subdominant - the 4 shapes correspond to fa, sol, la, and mi - a unison, tone, major third, and augmented 4th to the fa. As the whole scale corresponds to this pattern, repeated in whole from fa and in part from do: Tonic sol-faDo re mi, fa sol la ti 4-shape:fa sol la, fa sol la mi You can thus give a good idea of any diatonic tune using the 4 shapes - mediaeval tetrachords were the same idea - they often referred to fingers on a hand as a mnemonic. Don't think of fa as automatically the tonic or the subdominant, as lots of shape note tunes are modal. See Star of the east, in the wikipedia article. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 12 January 2011 09:05 To: greidbis...@gmail.com; d...@brooke-taylor.freeserve.co.uk Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Still off topic: Off-topic request for Hymnbook >easier than straining the eye to see if that little black >circle is an A or a C and how do I then find that pitch on the >spot. Fair enough, but for someone whose vision is as bad as mine, it's easier to see where a blob is (on which line or between which lines?) than to discern the precise shape of the blob (which gives no additional information anyway, so why bother?). And why should shape be easier to correlate to a given pitch than vertical position? The notes in conventional notation (which is identical to shape-note notation minus the shapes) give the visual aid of "going up and down on the stave" while the shapes could be interchangeable by applying different conventions. Note for nothing is a scale called, literally, a "tone ladder" in, for example, Dutch and German. I personally also have a problem with tablature. Conventional notation is like a picture of the music; tablature only a picture of the instrument. All this FWIW, as ever. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Now this is really off-topic but might amuse some. If likely to disapprove, please delete now. I was once taking a sectional rehearsal for the viola in the student orchestra at the Luxembourg conservatoire (where they use the French system) when I found myself "translating" the rehearsal marks and saying things such as "let's go from three bars before Ré" instead of "... before D". My own viola teacher in a similar situation managed to say "après soixante-neuf revenez en première position". Strangely enough, I was the only one who sniggered. BTW, the language spoken in Luxembourg is Lëtzebuergesch, not French, but the good Burgers often find themselves obliged to change into French if there is a single "quarante-quatorze" or "quarante-dix-sept" in the room. (those are the départements that the "cent-onze" come from). Csirz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Yup, I can sympathise with all this (especially the bit about unintentionally rude or nonsensical - I was once warning a class of Germans learning English to avoid the word "backside" when they mean "back" or "verso" and managed to make precisely the same mistake myself in German while doing so - doh!!!). Mercifully, I'm no longer teaching but translating, which is marginally preferable. C > > I also found it really confusing when trying to teach traditional >music in this system to French speaking groups. >Given that tonic solfa allows a movable "doh" (Or should that >be "Doh!"? >) it's a very helpful system for singing with, as long as you indeed >don't forget which of the arbitrary names means which relative pitch. >But when you're familiar with that system, trying to then translate a >tune in G from the alphabetical name system into continental style >solfa, where the instinctive tonic "Doh" of G is now called >"Sol", etc., >so that players can sing it knowing which note they're going to use on >the instrument, left my brain even more confused than you probably are >after trying to read this. >(Meanwhile trying mentally to summon my inadequate French in order to >explain the next bit of teaching material without saying anything >unintentionally rude or nonsensical at the same time.) >:) >Richard. > >On 12/01/2011 09:14, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: >>> I think in France they have a "fixed do" system, where mib >>> =Meeflat = Eb >> This is correct. At the Conservatoires they teach people to >sing the note names, which I personally find a pointless >exercise for various reasons, including the fact that they >miss out the words "bémol, dièse and bécart" (flat, sharp, >nat) because there is no time to fit them in. There is also >the fact that the note-names are arbitrary (they are the >initial syllables of the lines of an ancient Latin hymn - Ut >quaent laxis) and hence don't follow any pre-existing sequence >(unlike A, B, C etc.). This is also why C is often referred to >in French as "Ut", which is strictly speaking bottom C in an >octave, the top C (or do) being, historically "haut" i.e. high. >> >> It's very impressive to hear French-trained musicians do >this at high speed tho. >> c >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
I also found it really confusing when trying to teach traditional music in this system to French speaking groups. Given that tonic solfa allows a movable "doh" (Or should that be "Doh!"? ) it's a very helpful system for singing with, as long as you indeed don't forget which of the arbitrary names means which relative pitch. But when you're familiar with that system, trying to then translate a tune in G from the alphabetical name system into continental style solfa, where the instinctive tonic "Doh" of G is now called "Sol", etc., so that players can sing it knowing which note they're going to use on the instrument, left my brain even more confused than you probably are after trying to read this. (Meanwhile trying mentally to summon my inadequate French in order to explain the next bit of teaching material without saying anything unintentionally rude or nonsensical at the same time.) :) Richard. On 12/01/2011 09:14, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: I think in France they have a "fixed do" system, where mib =Meeflat = Eb This is correct. At the Conservatoires they teach people to sing the note names, which I personally find a pointless exercise for various reasons, including the fact that they miss out the words "bémol, dièse and bécart" (flat, sharp, nat) because there is no time to fit them in. There is also the fact that the note-names are arbitrary (they are the initial syllables of the lines of an ancient Latin hymn - Ut quaent laxis) and hence don't follow any pre-existing sequence (unlike A, B, C etc.). This is also why C is often referred to in French as "Ut", which is strictly speaking bottom C in an octave, the top C (or do) being, historically "haut" i.e. high. It's very impressive to hear French-trained musicians do this at high speed tho. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Intonation
Thanks John. It's a gem! Sunny up here on the plateau. Francis On 12 Jan 2011, at 01:11, John Liestman wrote: > Francis, you must have the earlier "pre-plateau" version! > > I have posted a pdf file version at http://www.liestman.com/plateau.pdf for > anyone to read that is so inclined. It is called "Drone Reeds and the Plateau > of Stability" but it is truly the plateau of happiness if you can achieve it! > Let me know if for some reason the link does not work and I will just email > you (whoever "you" are . . . or is) a copy. > > Happy droning on the plateau! > > > On 1/11/2011 12:18 PM, Francis Wood wrote: >> Colin, are you using composite drone reeds or all-cane ones? Adjustment >> techniques will, of course differ. >> >> Whatever you're using, I'd check the drone itself as a priority, checking >> that everything is sealing correctly (tuning beads are often suspect), that >> the bore is clean and smooth, and that the tone hole is entirely free of any >> invisible debris or excess lubrication, which often accumulates invisibly >> there. Any of these deficiencies will cause instability. >> >> I have John Liestman's excellent book, but probably an earlier version than >> the one you mentioned, since I can't find the reed advice on those or >> adjacent pages. I do recall reading >> John's remarks about the parameters of stability (I think he calls that area >> the 'Plateau of Happiness' or something similar) and this may be in a >> subsequent edition or even in an NPS Magazine article. It's very good >> information. >> >> Of course, it is one thing to adjust a good reed and an entirely different >> matter to spend ages on a drone reed that does not work well and never will. >> Unfortunately some drone reeds are not worthy of that attention. >> >> Pitch of almost any woodwind reed will rise with pressure. The ideal reed >> behaviour for NSPs is one where pitch changes relatively little, and evenly, >> with all drone reeds and the chanter reed behaving similarly. That's a rare >> but not impossible situation, requiring not only skill but luck. I suspect >> that as much success comes from knowing when to reject a reed, as knowing >> when and how to adjust it. >> >> Francis >> >> >> >> >> On 11 Jan 2011, at 12:40, Colin and Cheryl McNaught wrote: >> >>> Following on from these sage comments, does anyone have ideas about >>> what causes some drones to be significantly more pressure sensitive >>> than others. By this I mean their pitch varies more for a given change >>> in bag pressure. Once they are adjusted for pitch and pressure there >>> doesn't seem to be anything else to tweak without spoiling the >>> pitch/pressure set-ups. I have a set that is very stable and another >>> that has a couple of drones that aren't and would like to improve them. >>> >>> I always try to play other pipe sets when at NSP get-togethers and it's >>> been my experience that every set I have played has some quirky notes. >>>I'm sure there's a reed dependency in this too. Making small (often >>> unconscious) adjustments in bag pressure seems to be a part of playing >>> this instrument well (just as embouchure adjustments on, e.g. oboe, >>> flute). Consequently, a set of drones that is more stable can result >>> in a 'sweeter' end result than one that isn't. >>> >>> Colin (McNaught) >>> On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM,<[1]gibbonssoi...@aol.com> wrote: >>> >>> As many notes on an NSP chanter can be bent about a quarter tone >>> without putting the drones far out - at least on a good reed day - >>> I >>> guess one difference between a good piper and a fairly good one is >>> the >>> former will squeeze notes into tune unconsciously and accurately, >>> the >>> latter consciously and only fairly accurately. >>> I often think of singing the note, so I have an idea of the >>> pitch >>> in my head, to aim for. Listening to the chord with the drones - >>> if >>> these are in tune - also helps with some notes. It is the notes >>> that >>> harmonise with the drones which are most exposed if out of tune, >>> so >>> recognising a just 3rd or whatever tells you you've got there. The >>> singing trick doesn't work so well if you are still thinking >>> equal-tempered, mind. So chords are better. >>> Long notes are good practice for this - I wonder if this is >>> one >>> reason Tom Clough liked playing hymn tunes? 'Oh God our Help in >>> Ages >>> Past' (aka St Anne, or 'The Goldfish') is a good one for this, >>> dead >>> slow. >>> I sometimes use this to see if the drones are 'really' in tune. >>> When I started playing NSP after playing the flute for years, >>> my >>> embouchure would bend to try to bring notes in - ineffective of >>> itself, >>> but I found I was doing something useful as w
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
>I think in France they have a "fixed do" system, where mib >=Meeflat = Eb This is correct. At the Conservatoires they teach people to sing the note names, which I personally find a pointless exercise for various reasons, including the fact that they miss out the words "bémol, dièse and bécart" (flat, sharp, nat) because there is no time to fit them in. There is also the fact that the note-names are arbitrary (they are the initial syllables of the lines of an ancient Latin hymn - Ut quaent laxis) and hence don't follow any pre-existing sequence (unlike A, B, C etc.). This is also why C is often referred to in French as "Ut", which is strictly speaking bottom C in an octave, the top C (or do) being, historically "haut" i.e. high. It's very impressive to hear French-trained musicians do this at high speed tho. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Still off topic: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
>easier than straining the eye to see if that little black >circle is an A or a C and how do I then find that pitch on the >spot. Fair enough, but for someone whose vision is as bad as mine, it's easier to see where a blob is (on which line or between which lines?) than to discern the precise shape of the blob (which gives no additional information anyway, so why bother?). And why should shape be easier to correlate to a given pitch than vertical position? The notes in conventional notation (which is identical to shape-note notation minus the shapes) give the visual aid of "going up and down on the stave" while the shapes could be interchangeable by applying different conventions. Note for nothing is a scale called, literally, a "tone ladder" in, for example, Dutch and German. I personally also have a problem with tablature. Conventional notation is like a picture of the music; tablature only a picture of the instrument. All this FWIW, as ever. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Still off topic: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
>There's still though the question 'why?'. I'd have thought if a person >has the ability to learn the sol fa and the shapes, it would be easier >to learn the ordinary notes. Exactly! C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
