[NSP] Re: Rosslyn Castle
Hi, Intending to learn the Scottish Small Pipes after I'd gained some competence with NSP, I bought a second hand Colin Ross chanter (will try to send a photo in the next couple days, Julia) and a book of tunes The choicest bagpipe music from the Scottish Borders and Lowlands edited by Gordon J Mooney in 1982 and 1990. I've never felt competent enough with the Northumbrian pipes to branch out but have kept the chanter and book. The book has 71 tunes, vitually all in A, a few in D, and Roslin Castle. The notes for Roslin Castle say: This was one of the hit tunes of the 18th Century, and appears first in print under the title 'The Howe of Glamis'. We have notice of it being played on the 'Irish pipes by the Perth Town piper. These Irish pipes were probably the Improved Pastoral Bagpipe which was fashionable in the 18th century and possessed a chromatic scale over two octaves thus enabling tunes like Roslin Castle to be played. The source is given as song 8, page 9 The Scots Musical Museum, Edinburgh, 4 volumes 1853 edition, James Johnson. I hope this provides some useful information. John Clifford retired in Scotland I only know a couple of things about Roslyn Castle (and I think one 's' is correct in the name). Here's sleeve notes from Hamish Moore's LP ''Cauld Wind Pipes'' : ''Found in Kerr's Collection. This tune is played on the Pastoral Pipes with Patsy Seddon on Clarsach and Dougie MacLean on fiddle. The tune, first known as 'The House of Glamis' was a successful 'weel kent' tune of the 18th Century, and was popular among the Pastoral Pipers of Perth. The title was changed at some time and is more widely known as Roslyn Castle.'' The other thing I know is that Robert Burns used the tune for at least for one of his songs, entitled only ''Song'' (unsurprising because the words are not one of his best songwriting achievements). As for Hamish's performance of the tune on Pastoral pipes these are a notoriously elusive, problematic instrument and I don't think has ever been repeated. Despite one or two claims I doubt whether any pipe-maker has managed to successfully make or restore a satisfactory playable set. Also the suggestion from the sleeve note that there was somehow at one time a corps of ''Pastoral Pipers of Perth'' seems slightly fanciful. These were early days in the Scottish bellows pipes revival of the 1980's and we were all a bit over-excited about all kinds of discoveries about old Scottish bellows-piping lore and new possibilities. Mind I could be totally wrong and maybe in days of yore there were lots of Pastoral pipers in Perth. Anyway it is a lovely haunting tune. Bill where the tune is played on Pastoral pipes (a deeply problematic instrument) state: -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 26 April 2010 13:11 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Rosslyn Castle Rosslyn/Roslyn/Roslin Castle is a tune I love, and it's in the NPS books. I'd like to find more about the origin. The story about the mason, from Andy May on his CD insert, is a great tale, but of course doesn't explain the tune's beginnings - I sort of assumed from there it was perhaps a lament related to the terrible deed. But it never seems very Scottish in its shape - all those major 7th leaps in a minor tune. We have a CD by the Welsh triple harp player Llio Rhydderch (OT thought... so was Lliopatra really Welsh, not Egyptian??!) who is very steeped in her tradition and takes it very studiously. She writes that there's a tradition that a relation of the famously Eponymous David of the White Rock, (and he died early mid C19th), travelled to Rosslyn Castle where he worked as a gardener, and took the tune with him from Wales. Certainly, once you hear her playing of it, it's absolutely Welsh. And very much the same feel as the David Of etc tune. On t'other hand she doesn't actually say who wrote it or when. While it's not strictly a Northumbrian Question, it's now in the nsp repertoire, so does anyone know any more of it, please? Thanks, Richard. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2835 - Release Date: 04/25/10 19:31:00 On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Richard York [1]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk wrote: what about the Scottishness of Welshness of the shape of the tune? I don't know enough about Welshness to comment, but to me the tune sounds more rooted in a particular time than a particular place. -- References 1. mailto:rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rosslyn Castle
I heard the this tune was played at George Washington's funeral back in 1799. I think it was chosen because he was not only the Father of the USA but also because he was a prominent mason. I don't know what instrument it was played on or if it was really played then. I don't know the source of this claim. Best wishes, Tom Childs www.tomchildsbagpiper.com -Original Message- From: Rev John Clifford cliff...@universalist.ednet.co.uk Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:04:00 To: theborderpi...@googlemail.com Cc: rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Rosslyn Castle Hi, Intending to learn the Scottish Small Pipes after I'd gained some competence with NSP, I bought a second hand Colin Ross chanter (will try to send a photo in the next couple days, Julia) and a book of tunes The choicest bagpipe music from the Scottish Borders and Lowlands edited by Gordon J Mooney in 1982 and 1990. I've never felt competent enough with the Northumbrian pipes to branch out but have kept the chanter and book. The book has 71 tunes, vitually all in A, a few in D, and Roslin Castle. The notes for Roslin Castle say: This was one of the hit tunes of the 18th Century, and appears first in print under the title 'The Howe of Glamis'. We have notice of it being played on the 'Irish pipes by the Perth Town piper. These Irish pipes were probably the Improved Pastoral Bagpipe which was fashionable in the 18th century and possessed a chromatic scale over two octaves thus enabling tunes like Roslin Castle to be played. The source is given as song 8, page 9 The Scots Musical Museum, Edinburgh, 4 volumes 1853 edition, James Johnson. I hope this provides some useful information. John Clifford retired in Scotland I only know a couple of things about Roslyn Castle (and I think one 's' is correct in the name). Here's sleeve notes from Hamish Moore's LP ''Cauld Wind Pipes'' : ''Found in Kerr's Collection. This tune is played on the Pastoral Pipes with Patsy Seddon on Clarsach and Dougie MacLean on fiddle. The tune, first known as 'The House of Glamis' was a successful 'weel kent' tune of the 18th Century, and was popular among the Pastoral Pipers of Perth. The title was changed at some time and is more widely known as Roslyn Castle.'' The other thing I know is that Robert Burns used the tune for at least for one of his songs, entitled only ''Song'' (unsurprising because the words are not one of his best songwriting achievements). As for Hamish's performance of the tune on Pastoral pipes these are a notoriously elusive, problematic instrument and I don't think has ever been repeated. Despite one or two claims I doubt whether any pipe-maker has managed to successfully make or restore a satisfactory playable set. Also the suggestion from the sleeve note that there was somehow at one time a corps of ''Pastoral Pipers of Perth'' seems slightly fanciful. These were early days in the Scottish bellows pipes revival of the 1980's and we were all a bit over-excited about all kinds of discoveries about old Scottish bellows-piping lore and new possibilities. Mind I could be totally wrong and maybe in days of yore there were lots of Pastoral pipers in Perth. Anyway it is a lovely haunting tune. Bill where the tune is played on Pastoral pipes (a deeply problematic instrument) state: -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 26 April 2010 13:11 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Rosslyn Castle Rosslyn/Roslyn/Roslin Castle is a tune I love, and it's in the NPS books. I'd like to find more about the origin. The story about the mason, from Andy May on his CD insert, is a great tale, but of course doesn't explain the tune's beginnings - I sort of assumed from there it was perhaps a lament related to the terrible deed. But it never seems very Scottish in its shape - all those major 7th leaps in a minor tune. We have a CD by the Welsh triple harp player Llio Rhydderch (OT thought... so was Lliopatra really Welsh, not Egyptian??!) who is very steeped in her tradition and takes it very studiously. She writes that there's a tradition that a relation of the famously Eponymous David of the White Rock, (and he died early mid C19th), travelled to Rosslyn Castle where he worked as a gardener, and took the tune with him from Wales. Certainly, once you hear her playing of it, it's absolutely Welsh. And very much the same feel as the David Of etc tune. On t'other hand she doesn't actually say who wrote it or when. While it's not strictly a Northumbrian Question, it's now in the nsp repertoire, so does anyone know any more of it, please? Thanks, Richard. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 9.0.814
[NSP] Re: Rosslyn Castle
An early sighting is in Oswald CPC Vol 4 where it is called Roselana Castle: 2 strains of air followed by 2 of variation followed by 4 'Brisk' 6/8 jig strs. The tune has been attributed to Oswald - it was previously published by McGibbon as Glamis Castle in 1746 but Purser's notes in the CDR edition of CPC lend support to a claim for Oswald - the two men knew each other and were both Freemasons. I don't have Andy's CD but if his story is about a mason I suspect it relates to the Apprentice Pillar in Roslin Chapel - a different building. The Welsh story - no comment. On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Richard York [1]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk wrote: Rosslyn/Roslyn/Roslin Castle is a tune I love, and it's in the NPS books. I'd like to find more about the origin. The story about the mason, from Andy May on his CD insert, is a great tale, but of course doesn't explain the tune's beginnings - I sort of assumed from there it was perhaps a lament related to the terrible deed. But it never seems very Scottish in its shape - all those major 7th leaps in a minor tune. We have a CD by the Welsh triple harp player Llio Rhydderch (OT thought... so was Lliopatra really Welsh, not Egyptian??!) who is very steeped in her tradition and takes it very studiously. She writes that there's a tradition that a relation of the famously Eponymous David of the White Rock, (and he died early mid C19th), travelled to Rosslyn Castle where he worked as a gardener, and took the tune with him from Wales. Certainly, once you hear her playing of it, it's absolutely Welsh. And very much the same feel as the David Of etc tune. On t'other hand she doesn't actually say who wrote it or when. While it's not strictly a Northumbrian Question, it's now in the nsp repertoire, so does anyone know any more of it, please? Thanks, Richard. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rosslyn Castle
I only know a couple of things about Roslyn Castle (and I think one 's' is correct in the name). Here's sleeve notes from Hamish Moore's LP ''Cauld Wind Pipes'' : ''Found in Kerr's Collection. This tune is played on the Pastoral Pipes with Patsy Seddon on Clarsach and Dougie MacLean on fiddle. The tune, first known as 'The House of Glamis' was a successful 'weel kent' tune of the 18th Century, and was popular among the Pastoral Pipers of Perth. The title was changed at some time and is more widely known as Roslyn Castle.'' The other thing I know is that Robert Burns used the tune for at least for one of his songs, entitled only ''Song'' (unsurprising because the words are not one of his best songwriting achievements). As for Hamish's performance of the tune on Pastoral pipes these are a notoriously elusive, problematic instrument and I don't think has ever been repeated. Despite one or two claims I doubt whether any pipe-maker has managed to successfully make or restore a satisfactory playable set. Also the suggestion from the sleeve note that there was somehow at one time a corps of ''Pastoral Pipers of Perth'' seems slightly fanciful. These were early days in the Scottish bellows pipes revival of the 1980's and we were all a bit over-excited about all kinds of discoveries about old Scottish bellows-piping lore and new possibilities. Mind I could be totally wrong and maybe in days of yore there were lots of Pastoral pipers in Perth. Anyway it is a lovely haunting tune. Bill where the tune is played on Pastoral pipes (a deeply problematic instrument) state: -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 26 April 2010 13:11 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Rosslyn Castle Rosslyn/Roslyn/Roslin Castle is a tune I love, and it's in the NPS books. I'd like to find more about the origin. The story about the mason, from Andy May on his CD insert, is a great tale, but of course doesn't explain the tune's beginnings - I sort of assumed from there it was perhaps a lament related to the terrible deed. But it never seems very Scottish in its shape - all those major 7th leaps in a minor tune. We have a CD by the Welsh triple harp player Llio Rhydderch (OT thought... so was Lliopatra really Welsh, not Egyptian??!) who is very steeped in her tradition and takes it very studiously. She writes that there's a tradition that a relation of the famously Eponymous David of the White Rock, (and he died early mid C19th), travelled to Rosslyn Castle where he worked as a gardener, and took the tune with him from Wales. Certainly, once you hear her playing of it, it's absolutely Welsh. And very much the same feel as the David Of etc tune. On t'other hand she doesn't actually say who wrote it or when. While it's not strictly a Northumbrian Question, it's now in the nsp repertoire, so does anyone know any more of it, please? Thanks, Richard. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2835 - Release Date: 04/25/10 19:31:00
[NSP] Re: Rosslyn Castle
Thanks Matt, I had a suspicion you'd have more information! The story is indeed that of the Apprentice Pillar. Thanks for the correction about the building. Without casting any doubt on the claims of Oswald to have written it down, the date of 1746 does relate nicely to the possibility of it having travelled with this relation of the Welsh DavidofRock. Might Oswald have heard it, or McGibbons if 'twas him, have heard it and worked from there? I won't push for comment on the story - what about the Scottishness of Welshness of the shape of the tune? You know far more than most about the harmonic melodic structure of different traditions of tunes. Any comment on that? Best wishes, Richard. On 26/04/2010 13:57, Matt Seattle wrote: An early sighting is in Oswald CPC Vol 4 where it is called Roselana Castle: 2 strains of air followed by 2 of variation followed by 4 'Brisk' 6/8 jig strs. The tune has been attributed to Oswald - it was previously published by McGibbon as Glamis Castle in 1746 but Purser's notes in the CDR edition of CPC lend support to a claim for Oswald - the two men knew each other and were both Freemasons. I don't have Andy's CD but if his story is about a mason I suspect it relates to the Apprentice Pillar in Roslin Chapel - a different building. The Welsh story - no comment. On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Richard York [1]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk wrote: Rosslyn/Roslyn/Roslin Castle is a tune I love, and it's in the NPS books. I'd like to find more about the origin. The story about the mason, from Andy May on his CD insert, is a great tale, but of course doesn't explain the tune's beginnings - I sort of assumed from there it was perhaps a lament related to the terrible deed. But it never seems very Scottish in its shape - all those major 7th leaps in a minor tune. We have a CD by the Welsh triple harp player Llio Rhydderch (OT thought... so was Lliopatra really Welsh, not Egyptian??!) who is very steeped in her tradition and takes it very studiously. She writes that there's a tradition that a relation of the famously Eponymous David of the White Rock, (and he died early mid C19th), travelled to Rosslyn Castle where he worked as a gardener, and took the tune with him from Wales. Certainly, once you hear her playing of it, it's absolutely Welsh. And very much the same feel as the David Of etc tune. On t'other hand she doesn't actually say who wrote it or when. While it's not strictly a Northumbrian Question, it's now in the nsp repertoire, so does anyone know any more of it, please? Thanks, Richard. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rosslyn Castle
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Richard York [1]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk wrote: what about the Scottishness of Welshness of the shape of the tune? I don't know enough about Welshness to comment, but to me the tune sounds more rooted in a particular time than a particular place. -- References 1. mailto:rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
