Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-07-03 Thread Thomas Widmann 
On 28 June 2017 at 13:49, Thomas Widmann  wrote:
> On 28 June 2017 at 12:57, Hans Hagen  wrote:
>> On 6/28/2017 1:20 PM, Thomas Widmann wrote:
>>
>>> What I'd really like to know is whether the relevant parts of TeX have
>>> been Luafied already (in which case I might do it soon), or whether
>>> doing this would require making changes to LuaTeX itself (in which case I 
>>> might not want to touch this yet)…
>>
>> al relevant parts are opened up
>
> Do you happen to know whether anybody has ever done anything vaguely
> similar that I can base this on, or would I be better off starting
> from scratch?

I must admit I'm struggling a bit with how to do this.  I was looking
at using buildpage_filter to add some code, but that gets called when
"LuaTeX is ready to move stuff to the main vertical list" according to
the manual, so I would only be able to affect where the page break
happens, not how the paragraphs get typeset.  Or am I wrong?

Is there any way to re-typeset a paragraph in the current vertical
list once you've got as far as buildpage_filter?  (Of course, half the
paragraph might already have output to the preceding page, so the
re-typesetting might have to start mid-paragraph.)

Would it be easier to re-typeset the entire document?  I.e., whenever
a widow or orphan gets generated, mark the entries on the current page
in some way (in the aux file?), and then typeset the whole thing
again, typesetting the entries marked slightly differently.

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thomas
-- 
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Director
Complexli Limited
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-28 Thread Thomas Widmann 
On 28 June 2017 at 12:57, Hans Hagen  wrote:
> On 6/28/2017 1:20 PM, Thomas Widmann wrote:
>
>> What I'd really like to know is whether the relevant parts of TeX have
>> been Luafied already (in which case I might do it soon), or whether
>> doing this would require making changes to LuaTeX itself (in which case I
>> might not want to touch this yet)…
>
> al relevant parts are opened up

Excellent, thanks!

Do you happen to know whether anybody has ever done anything vaguely
similar that I can base this on, or would I be better off starting
from scratch?

Thanks!

Thomas
-- 
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Director
Complexli Limited
+44 789 444 3009
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-28 Thread Hans Hagen 

On 6/28/2017 1:20 PM, Thomas Widmann wrote:


Thanks, Hans!  I never expected it to work out of the box, and I'm
quite happy to do a lot of programming to make it work.

What I'd really like to know is whether the relevant parts of TeX have
been Luafied already (in which case I might do it soon), or whether
doing this would require making changes to LuaTeX itself (in which I
might not want to touch this yet)…

al relevant parts are opened up

Hans

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   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-28 Thread Thomas Widmann 
On 28 June 2017 at 12:04, Hans Hagen  wrote:
> On 6/28/2017 11:16 AM, Thomas Widmann wrote:
>>
>> If the answer is 'no', that's OK. I reckon it might be, given that TeX
>> builds the paragraphs first and then split them to create pages, and I
>> basically want the page builder to be able to rebuild certain
>> paragraphs to make them fit, which goes against TeX's basic design.
>>
>> However, if were is somehow possible with LuaTeX, it would open up a
>> lot of possibilities, and not just for dictionary typesetting.
>
> one can of course make it work somehow, but it's not something standard and
> takes some coding and testing ... a rather specialized sub mechanism
>
> (basically most of what one wants can be done, but that doesn't mean that
> all gets implemented; normally i only do such more complex things if i need
> it in a project, unless it is some rainy day fun project)

Thanks, Hans!  I never expected it to work out of the box, and I'm
quite happy to do a lot of programming to make it work.

What I'd really like to know is whether the relevant parts of TeX have
been Luafied already (in which case I might do it soon), or whether
doing this would require making changes to LuaTeX itself (in which I
might not want to touch this yet)…

Thomas
-- 
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Director
Complexli Limited
+44 789 444 3009
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-28 Thread Hans Hagen 

On 6/28/2017 11:16 AM, Thomas Widmann wrote:

On 26 June 2017 at 10:31, Thomas Widmann  wrote:

[...] Is there a way in ConTeXt/LuaTeX to typeset a column
repeatedly until it fulfils certain criteria (such as not generating
an orphan or a widow)?

Perhaps it would be easier if I didn't think of it as a column, but
simply as a box?  The only problem I can see with that is that it
makes it awkward to handle the fact that long entries will often need
to run into the next column.


If the answer is 'no', that's OK. I reckon it might be, given that TeX
builds the paragraphs first and then split them to create pages, and I
basically want the page builder to be able to rebuild certain
paragraphs to make them fit, which goes against TeX's basic design.

However, if were is somehow possible with LuaTeX, it would open up a
lot of possibilities, and not just for dictionary typesetting.
one can of course make it work somehow, but it's not something standard 
and takes some coding and testing ... a rather specialized sub mechanism


(basically most of what one wants can be done, but that doesn't mean 
that all gets implemented; normally i only do such more complex things 
if i need it in a project, unless it is some rainy day fun project)


Hans


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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-28 Thread Thomas Widmann 
On 26 June 2017 at 10:31, Thomas Widmann  wrote:
> [...] Is there a way in ConTeXt/LuaTeX to typeset a column
> repeatedly until it fulfils certain criteria (such as not generating
> an orphan or a widow)?
>
> Perhaps it would be easier if I didn't think of it as a column, but
> simply as a box?  The only problem I can see with that is that it
> makes it awkward to handle the fact that long entries will often need
> to run into the next column.

If the answer is 'no', that's OK. I reckon it might be, given that TeX
builds the paragraphs first and then split them to create pages, and I
basically want the page builder to be able to rebuild certain
paragraphs to make them fit, which goes against TeX's basic design.

However, if were is somehow possible with LuaTeX, it would open up a
lot of possibilities, and not just for dictionary typesetting.

Thomas
-- 
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Director
Complexli Limited
+44 789 444 3009
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-26 Thread Thomas Widmann 
On 25 June 2017 at 12:16, Hans Hagen  wrote:
> On 6/24/2017 4:48 PM, Thomas Widmann wrote:
>>
>> Lots of published dictionaries are full of orphans and widows because
>> they're so hard to avoid without a lot of manual intervention, which
>> is why I'm keen to explore any novel ways to avoid them.
>>
>> However, all ways I can think of requires typesetting the entries in
>> the last column multiple times, i.e.:
>>
>> repeat
>>adjust parameters (column width, looseness, ...)
>>typeset column
>> until the column doesn't generate orphan/widow
>>
>> Is this possible with ConTeXt/LuaTeX?
>
> maybe be more explicit with very large penalties helps
>
> \startdocument
>
> \showmakeup[penalty]
>
> [...]
>
> \stopdocument

Thanks, Hans, that's a very instructive bit of code, and I'm sure it
will be useful from time to time.  However, it doesn't really answer
my question: Is there a way in ConTeXt/LuaTeX to typeset a column
repeatedly until it fulfils certain criteria (such as not generating
an orphan or a widow)?

Perhaps it would be easier if I didn't think of it as a column, but
simply as a box?  The only problem I can see with that is that it
makes it awkward to handle the fact that long entries will often need
to run into the next column.

Thomas
-- 
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Director
Complexli Limited
+44 789 444 3009
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-25 Thread Hans Hagen 

On 6/24/2017 4:48 PM, Thomas Widmann wrote:

On 24 June 2017 at 01:19, Henri Menke  wrote:


How about putting every entry into a box, making it unbreakable?  Of course, 
you get unbalanced
columns this way, but I think keeping the entries together is easier for the 
reader.


Thanks for your suggestion, but I don't think that'd work. Firstly,
it'd require you to figure out whether an entry is longer than three
lines (and thus breakable) before putting it into a box.  Secondly,
unbalanced columns really aren't the done thing in dictionary
publishing.

Lots of published dictionaries are full of orphans and widows because
they're so hard to avoid without a lot of manual intervention, which
is why I'm keen to explore and novel ways to avoid them.

However, all ways I can think of requires typesetting the entries in
the last column multiple times, i.e.:

repeat
   adjust parameters (column width, looseness, ...)
   typeset column
until the column doesn't generate orphan/widow

Is this possible with ConTeXt/LuaTeX?

maybe be more explicit with very large penalties helps

\startdocument

\showmakeup[penalty]

\startbuffer
\dorecurse{30}{
\widowpenalty\maxdimen
\clubpenalty \maxdimen
{\tf test #1.1}\crlf
{\bi test #1.2}\crlf
{\tf test #1.3}\crlf
{\bf test #1.4}\relax
\par
}
\stopbuffer

\dorecurse{20}{
\dontcomplain
\startmixedcolumns[balance=yes]
\dorecurse{#1}{line #1\crlf}
\getbuffer
\stopmixedcolumns
\page
}

\stopdocument



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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-24 Thread Thomas Widmann 
On 24 June 2017 at 01:19, Henri Menke  wrote:
>
> How about putting every entry into a box, making it unbreakable?  Of course, 
> you get unbalanced
> columns this way, but I think keeping the entries together is easier for the 
> reader.

Thanks for your suggestion, but I don't think that'd work. Firstly,
it'd require you to figure out whether an entry is longer than three
lines (and thus breakable) before putting it into a box.  Secondly,
unbalanced columns really aren't the done thing in dictionary
publishing.

Lots of published dictionaries are full of orphans and widows because
they're so hard to avoid without a lot of manual intervention, which
is why I'm keen to explore and novel ways to avoid them.

However, all ways I can think of requires typesetting the entries in
the last column multiple times, i.e.:

repeat
  adjust parameters (column width, looseness, ...)
  typeset column
until the column doesn't generate orphan/widow

Is this possible with ConTeXt/LuaTeX?

Thomas
-- 
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Director
Complexli Limited
+44 789 444 3009
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-23 Thread Henri Menke 
On Fri, 2017-06-23 at 17:52 +0100, Thomas Widmann wrote:
> On 23 June 2017 at 14:21, Thomas Widmann  wrote:
> > 
> > On 20 June 2017 at 20:33, Hans Hagen  wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 6/20/2017 11:53 AM, Thomas Widmann wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On 20 June 2017 at 10:41, Henri Menke  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Tue, 2017-06-20 at 09:22 +0100, Thomas Widmann wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I recently started experimenting with using ConTeXt (mkiv) for
> > > > > > dictionary typesetting. It's a much
> > > > > > more attractive option than plain TeX or LaTeX because of the 
> > > > > > support
> > > > > > for typesetting on a grid.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > However, grid typesetting can easily result in a large number of 
> > > > > > orphans
> > > > > > and widows, which really
> > > > > > doesn't look good in a dictionary.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > In an ideal world, I'd want to alter the column width slightly to
> > > > > > prevent them (because most
> > > > > > dictionaries aren't justified, this wouldn't be very noticeable).
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Would it be possible to use LuaTeX to achieve this?  I.e., could one
> > > > > > write some code that gets
> > > > > > triggered by orphans and widows and then alters the current column 
> > > > > > width
> > > > > > slightly until the
> > > > > > problem disappears?  Has somebody already done this?  Or have the
> > > > > > relevant TeX internals not been
> > > > > > Luafied yet?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I'd also be interested in other ways to solve this issue – for 
> > > > > > instance
> > > > > > changing the looseness
> > > > > > dynamically instead of the column width.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Have a look at \widowpenalty and \clubpenalty.  Also use margin 
> > > > > kerning
> > > > > and font expansion.
> > > > 
> > > > \widowpenalty and \clubpenalty are almost useless in this context –
> > > > believe me, I've tried! (I'm typesetting on a grid, with a fixed
> > > > number of lines per page.) Which is why I'm looking for alternatives.
> > > > 
> > > > Margin kerning and font expansion are definitely options, but again,
> > > > my real query would be how to trigger them dynamically to avoid a
> > > > widow or an orphan.
> > > can you make a small example showing the problem
> > Sorry about the delay – here you go!
> > 
> > On my computer, the first column goes on for two lines more than the
> > following column, and it still produces a widow:
> > 
> > %%% document starts here
> > [...]
> > %%% document ends here
> > 
> > The thing is that there simply isn't a good way to break up a
> > three-line dictionary entry, and it would be much better to play
> > around with the column width, the looseness, margin kerning or other
> > tools rather than having to do so.  Doing it manually is easy enough,
> > but it would be much nicer if the one or more of these tools could get
> > triggered automatically.
> Oops, those lines didn't get wrapped very neatly.  Here's a better version:

How about putting every entry into a box, making it unbreakable?  Of course, 
you get unbalanced
columns this way, but I think keeping the entries together is easier for the 
reader.


\mainlanguage[en]

\definefontfeature
  [default][default]
  [
protrusion=quality,
expansion=quality,
onum=yes,
  ]

\definestartstop [negindent] [
  before={%
\startnarrower[left]%
\setupindenting[-.5em,yes,first]%
\setuphead[subject][indentnext=yes]%
  },
  after=\stopnarrower,
]

\setupbodyfont[palatino]

\setupalign[hz,hanging,tolerant]

\startsetups[grid][mypenalties]
\setdefaultpenalties
\setpenalties\widowpenalties{2}{1}
\setpenalties\clubpenalties {2}{1}
\stopsetups

\setuplayout[grid=yes, setups=mypenalties]

\righthyphenmin=60
\lefthyphenmin=60

\def\Sblackbold#1{{\bf #1}}
\def\Sdef#1{{#1}}
\def\Sdefrf#1{{\bf #1}}
\def\ShwJNR#1{{\blue\bf #1}}
\def\Spospsmallcaps#1{{\sc #1}}
\def\Spunctuation#1{{#1}}
\def\Sxrefxrhw#1{{\bf #1}}
\def\Sgroupintro#1{{\it #1}}

\def\threeentries{
  \vbox{\hsize=\textwidth
\ShwJNR{headphones}\page[no]\par\-\hskip .5em
\Spospsmallcaps{noun}%
\Spunctuation{ }%
\Sdef{a pair of small speakers that you wear over your ears}%
  }
  \vbox{\hsize=\textwidth
\ShwJNR{heard}\page[no]\par\-\hskip.5em
\Spospsmallcaps{verb}%
\Spunctuation{ }%
\Sgroupintro{the past tense and past part.\ of}%
\Spunctuation{ }%
\Sxrefxrhw{hear}%
  }
  \vbox{\hsize=\textwidth
\ShwJNR{hearing}\page[no]\par\-\hskip .5em
\Spospsmallcaps{noun}%
\Spunctuation{ }%
\Sblackbold{2}%
\Spunctuation{ }%
\Sdef{If someone gives you a }%
\Sdefrf{hearing}%
\Sdef{,they let you give your point of view and listen to you}%
  }
}

\def\thirtyentries{\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries%
\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries}

\startdocument

Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-23 Thread Thomas Widmann 
On 23 June 2017 at 14:21, Thomas Widmann  wrote:
> On 20 June 2017 at 20:33, Hans Hagen  wrote:
>> On 6/20/2017 11:53 AM, Thomas Widmann wrote:
>>>
>>> On 20 June 2017 at 10:41, Henri Menke  wrote:


 On Tue, 2017-06-20 at 09:22 +0100, Thomas Widmann wrote:
>
>
> I recently started experimenting with using ConTeXt (mkiv) for
> dictionary typesetting. It's a much
> more attractive option than plain TeX or LaTeX because of the support
> for typesetting on a grid.
>
> However, grid typesetting can easily result in a large number of orphans
> and widows, which really
> doesn't look good in a dictionary.
>
> In an ideal world, I'd want to alter the column width slightly to
> prevent them (because most
> dictionaries aren't justified, this wouldn't be very noticeable).
>
> Would it be possible to use LuaTeX to achieve this?  I.e., could one
> write some code that gets
> triggered by orphans and widows and then alters the current column width
> slightly until the
> problem disappears?  Has somebody already done this?  Or have the
> relevant TeX internals not been
> Luafied yet?
>
> I'd also be interested in other ways to solve this issue – for instance
> changing the looseness
> dynamically instead of the column width.


 Have a look at \widowpenalty and \clubpenalty.  Also use margin kerning
 and font expansion.
>>>
>>>
>>> \widowpenalty and \clubpenalty are almost useless in this context –
>>> believe me, I've tried! (I'm typesetting on a grid, with a fixed
>>> number of lines per page.) Which is why I'm looking for alternatives.
>>>
>>> Margin kerning and font expansion are definitely options, but again,
>>> my real query would be how to trigger them dynamically to avoid a
>>> widow or an orphan.
>>
>> can you make a small example showing the problem
>
> Sorry about the delay – here you go!
>
> On my computer, the first column goes on for two lines more than the
> following column, and it still produces a widow:
>
> %%% document starts here
> [...]
> %%% document ends here
>
> The thing is that there simply isn't a good way to break up a
> three-line dictionary entry, and it would be much better to play
> around with the column width, the looseness, margin kerning or other
> tools rather than having to do so.  Doing it manually is easy enough,
> but it would be much nicer if the one or more of these tools could get
> triggered automatically.

Oops, those lines didn't get wrapped very neatly.  Here's a better version:

\mainlanguage[en]

\definefontfeature
  [default][default]
  [
protrusion=quality,
expansion=quality,
onum=yes,
  ]

\definestartstop [negindent] [
  before={%
\startnarrower[left]%
\setupindenting[-.5em,yes,first]%
\setuphead[subject][indentnext=yes]%
  },
  after=\stopnarrower,
]

\setupbodyfont[palatino]

\setupalign[hz,hanging,tolerant]

\startsetups[grid][mypenalties]
\setdefaultpenalties
\setpenalties\widowpenalties{2}{1}
\setpenalties\clubpenalties {2}{1}
\stopsetups

\setuplayout[grid=yes, setups=mypenalties]

\righthyphenmin=60
\lefthyphenmin=60

\def\Sblackbold#1{{\bf #1}}
\def\Sdef#1{{#1}}
\def\Sdefrf#1{{\bf #1}}
\def\ShwJNR#1{{\blue\bf #1}}
\def\Spospsmallcaps#1{{\sc #1}}
\def\Spunctuation#1{{#1}}
\def\Sxrefxrhw#1{{\bf #1}}
\def\Sgroupintro#1{{\it #1}}

\def\threeentries{\ShwJNR{headphones}\page[no]\par\-\hskip .5em%
\Spospsmallcaps{noun}\Spunctuation{ }\Sdef{a pair of small speakers
that you wear over your ears}\par\ShwJNR{heard}\page[no]\par\-\hskip.5em%
\Spospsmallcaps{verb}\Spunctuation{ }\Sgroupintro{the past tense and past
part.\ of}\Spunctuation{ }\Sxrefxrhw{hear}\par\ShwJNR{hearing}\page[no]%
\par\-\hskip .5em\Spospsmallcaps{noun}\Spunctuation{ }\Sblackbold{2}
\Spunctuation{ }\Sdef{If someone gives you a }\Sdefrf{hearing}\Sdef{,
they let you give your point of view and listen to you\par}}

\def\thirtyentries{\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries%
\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries}

\startdocument

\startmixedcolumns[balance=yes]
\raggedright
\startnegindent

\thirtyentries

\stopnegindent
\stopmixedcolumns
\placefloats
\stopdocument

Thomas
-- 
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Director
Complexli Limited
+44 789 444 3009
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-23 Thread Thomas Widmann 
On 20 June 2017 at 20:33, Hans Hagen  wrote:
> On 6/20/2017 11:53 AM, Thomas Widmann wrote:
>>
>> On 20 June 2017 at 10:41, Henri Menke  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2017-06-20 at 09:22 +0100, Thomas Widmann wrote:


 I recently started experimenting with using ConTeXt (mkiv) for
 dictionary typesetting. It's a much
 more attractive option than plain TeX or LaTeX because of the support
 for typesetting on a grid.

 However, grid typesetting can easily result in a large number of orphans
 and widows, which really
 doesn't look good in a dictionary.

 In an ideal world, I'd want to alter the column width slightly to
 prevent them (because most
 dictionaries aren't justified, this wouldn't be very noticeable).

 Would it be possible to use LuaTeX to achieve this?  I.e., could one
 write some code that gets
 triggered by orphans and widows and then alters the current column width
 slightly until the
 problem disappears?  Has somebody already done this?  Or have the
 relevant TeX internals not been
 Luafied yet?

 I'd also be interested in other ways to solve this issue – for instance
 changing the looseness
 dynamically instead of the column width.
>>>
>>>
>>> Have a look at \widowpenalty and \clubpenalty.  Also use margin kerning
>>> and font expansion.
>>
>>
>> \widowpenalty and \clubpenalty are almost useless in this context –
>> believe me, I've tried! (I'm typesetting on a grid, with a fixed
>> number of lines per page.) Which is why I'm looking for alternatives.
>>
>> Margin kerning and font expansion are definitely options, but again,
>> my real query would be how to trigger them dynamically to avoid a
>> widow or an orphan.
>
> can you make a small example showing the problem

Sorry about the delay – here you go!

On my computer, the first column goes on for two lines more than the
following column, and it still produces a widow:

%%% document starts here

\mainlanguage[en]

\definefontfeature
  [default][default]
  [
protrusion=quality,
expansion=quality,
onum=yes,
  ]

\definestartstop [negindent] [
  before={%
\startnarrower[left]%
\setupindenting[-.5em,yes,first]%
\setuphead[subject][indentnext=yes]%
  },
  after=\stopnarrower,
]

\setupbodyfont[palatino]

\setupalign[hz,hanging,tolerant]

\startsetups[grid][mypenalties]
\setdefaultpenalties
\setpenalties\widowpenalties{2}{1}
\setpenalties\clubpenalties {2}{1}
\stopsetups

\setuplayout[grid=yes, setups=mypenalties]

\righthyphenmin=60
\lefthyphenmin=60

\def\Sblackbold#1{{\bf #1}}
\def\Sdef#1{{#1}}
\def\Sdefrf#1{{\bf #1}}
\def\ShwJNR#1{{\blue\bf #1}}
\def\Spospsmallcaps#1{{\sc #1}}
\def\Spunctuation#1{{#1}}
\def\Sxrefxrhw#1{{\bf #1}}
\def\Sgroupintro#1{{\it #1}}

\def\threeentries{\ShwJNR{headphones}\page[no]\par\-\hskip
.5em\Spospsmallcaps{noun}\Spunctuation{ }\Sdef{a pair of small
speakers that you wear over your
ears}\par\ShwJNR{heard}\page[no]\par\-\hskip
.5em\Spospsmallcaps{verb}\Spunctuation{ }\Sgroupintro{the past tense
and past participle of}\Spunctuation{
}\Sxrefxrhw{hear}\par\ShwJNR{hearing}\page[no]\par\-\hskip
.5em\Spospsmallcaps{noun}\Spunctuation{ }\Sblackbold{2}\Spunctuation{
}\Sdef{If someone gives you a }\Sdefrf{hearing}\Sdef{, they let you
give your point of view and listen to you.\par}}

\def\thirtyentries{\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries\threeentries}

\startdocument

\startmixedcolumns[balance=yes]
\raggedright
\startnegindent

\thirtyentries

\stopnegindent
\stopmixedcolumns
\placefloats
\stopdocument

%%% document ends here

The thing is that there simply isn't a good way to break up a
three-line dictionary entry, and it would be much better to play
around with the column width, the looseness, margin kerning or other
tools rather than having to do so.  Doing it manually is easy enough,
but it would be much nicer if the one or more of these tools could get
triggered automatically.

Regards,

Thomas
-- 
Thomas Widmann
Director
Complexli Limited
+44 789 444 3009
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-20 Thread Hans Hagen 

On 6/20/2017 11:53 AM, Thomas Widmann wrote:

On 20 June 2017 at 10:41, Henri Menke  wrote:


On Tue, 2017-06-20 at 09:22 +0100, Thomas Widmann wrote:


I recently started experimenting with using ConTeXt (mkiv) for dictionary 
typesetting. It's a much
more attractive option than plain TeX or LaTeX because of the support for 
typesetting on a grid.

However, grid typesetting can easily result in a large number of orphans and 
widows, which really
doesn't look good in a dictionary.

In an ideal world, I'd want to alter the column width slightly to prevent them 
(because most
dictionaries aren't justified, this wouldn't be very noticeable).

Would it be possible to use LuaTeX to achieve this?  I.e., could one write some 
code that gets
triggered by orphans and widows and then alters the current column width 
slightly until the
problem disappears?  Has somebody already done this?  Or have the relevant TeX 
internals not been
Luafied yet?

I'd also be interested in other ways to solve this issue – for instance 
changing the looseness
dynamically instead of the column width.


Have a look at \widowpenalty and \clubpenalty.  Also use margin kerning and 
font expansion.


\widowpenalty and \clubpenalty are almost useless in this context –
believe me, I've tried! (I'm typesetting on a grid, with a fixed
number of lines per page.) Which is why I'm looking for alternatives.

Margin kerning and font expansion are definitely options, but again,
my real query would be how to trigger them dynamically to avoid a
widow or an orphan.

can you make a small example showing the problem

Hans


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-20 Thread Thomas Widmann 
On 20 June 2017 at 10:41, Henri Menke  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2017-06-20 at 09:22 +0100, Thomas Widmann wrote:
> >
> > I recently started experimenting with using ConTeXt (mkiv) for dictionary 
> > typesetting. It's a much
> > more attractive option than plain TeX or LaTeX because of the support for 
> > typesetting on a grid.
> >
> > However, grid typesetting can easily result in a large number of orphans 
> > and widows, which really
> > doesn't look good in a dictionary.
> >
> > In an ideal world, I'd want to alter the column width slightly to prevent 
> > them (because most
> > dictionaries aren't justified, this wouldn't be very noticeable).
> >
> > Would it be possible to use LuaTeX to achieve this?  I.e., could one write 
> > some code that gets
> > triggered by orphans and widows and then alters the current column width 
> > slightly until the
> > problem disappears?  Has somebody already done this?  Or have the relevant 
> > TeX internals not been
> > Luafied yet?
> >
> > I'd also be interested in other ways to solve this issue – for instance 
> > changing the looseness
> > dynamically instead of the column width.
>
> Have a look at \widowpenalty and \clubpenalty.  Also use margin kerning and 
> font expansion.

\widowpenalty and \clubpenalty are almost useless in this context –
believe me, I've tried! (I'm typesetting on a grid, with a fixed
number of lines per page.) Which is why I'm looking for alternatives.

Margin kerning and font expansion are definitely options, but again,
my real query would be how to trigger them dynamically to avoid a
widow or an orphan.

Cheers,

Thomas
-- 
Thomas Widmann
Director
Complexli Limited
+44 789 444 3009
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Re: [NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-20 Thread Henri Menke 
On Tue, 2017-06-20 at 09:22 +0100, Thomas Widmann wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I recently started experimenting with using ConTeXt (mkiv) for dictionary 
> typesetting. It's a much
> more attractive option than plain TeX or LaTeX because of the support for 
> typesetting on a grid.
> 
> However, grid typesetting can easily result in a large number of orphans and 
> widows, which really
> doesn't look good in a dictionary.
> 
> In an ideal world, I'd want to alter the column width slightly to prevent 
> them (because most
> dictionaries aren't justified, this wouldn't be very noticeable).
> 
> Would it be possible to use LuaTeX to achieve this?  I.e., could one write 
> some code that gets
> triggered by orphans and widows and then alters the current column width 
> slightly until the
> problem disappears?  Has somebody already done this?  Or have the relevant 
> TeX internals not been
> Luafied yet?
> 
> I'd also be interested in other ways to solve this issue – for instance 
> changing the looseness
> dynamically instead of the column width.

Have a look at \widowpenalty and \clubpenalty.  Also use margin kerning and 
font expansion.

> Thanks a lot,
> 
> Thomas
> --
> Thomas Widmann
> Director
> Complexli Limited
> +44 789 444 3009
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
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[NTG-context] Adjusting column width dynamically to get rid of orphans and widows

2017-06-20 Thread Thomas Widmann 
Hello,

I recently started experimenting with using ConTeXt (mkiv) for dictionary
typesetting. It's a much more attractive option than plain TeX or LaTeX
because of the support for typesetting on a grid.

However, grid typesetting can easily result in a large number of orphans
and widows, which really doesn't look good in a dictionary.

In an ideal world, I'd want to alter the column width slightly to prevent
them (because most dictionaries aren't justified, this wouldn't be very
noticeable).

Would it be possible to use LuaTeX to achieve this?  I.e., could one write
some code that gets triggered by orphans and widows and then alters the
current column width slightly until the problem disappears?  Has somebody
already done this?  Or have the relevant TeX internals not been Luafied yet?

I'd also be interested in other ways to solve this issue – for instance
changing the looseness dynamically instead of the column width.

Thanks a lot,

Thomas
--
Thomas Widmann
Director
Complexli Limited
+44 789 444 3009
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