Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Taco Hoekwater wrote: Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: 2. When generating the formats, texexec complained about unknow control sequence because of lines 25 and 26 in syst-xtx.tex \setcclcuc 201C 201C 201C \setcclcuc 201D 201D 201D I had to comment out these lines to generate the formats (this is with a texlive2007 snapshot of last week and the latest ConTeXt). Is this a known bug? In the latest context, this is a known problem. But the TeXlive This bug is fixed in today's release (uploaded already) Taco ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Hans Hagen wrote:
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
Well don't laugh: I tried your suggestion and found that this works:
\definedfont[{{[GFSDidot] at 20pt}}]
the two pairs of braces seem to be needed. Not a pretty sight, though...
[GFSDidot]
is not a prettu sight anyway; does it fail when you don;t use those []'s?
It would be nicer if XeTeX would support TeX-style braces as well.
This is much less bizarre:
\definedfont[{GFSDidot} at 20pt]
Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
Well don't laugh: I tried your suggestion and found that this works:
\definedfont[{{[GFSDidot] at 20pt}}]
the two pairs of braces seem to be needed. Not a pretty sight, though...
[GFSDidot]
is not a prettu sight anyway; does it fail when you don;t use those []'s?
Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
On Jan 22, 2007, at 12:17 AM, Hans Hagen wrote: fonts is more than definitions; esp a the level of supporting features and runtime manipulating fonts, xetex and luatex will undoubtely differ; also, xetex uses external font libraries, while luatex does things internaly and under user/macro conytrol (with defaults); due to the nature of fonts, both systems will share characteristics ... the future will learn; from context's point of view ... we will provide a high level interface so users will probably not notice the gory details Hans That would be the best of all worlds... Just give us some Mk IV files to play with soonish... Thomas ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
On Jan 21, 2007, at 11:59 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote: In summer I almost lost my nerves when I had to make a presentation with Lithuanian, Turkish, Romanian, ... Vietnamese names (and had only one night to make it ready). One letter was missing in Unicode vectors for pdfTeX, [st]cedilla/commaaccent was problematic anyway (iwona and lm use different letters on the same slot), for Vietnamese I needed to redefine the font (\ifcountryisvietnamthen ... and font switching macros seemed to have little bugs, so some specific combinations of commands failed for basically no reason). It was a headache. (I needed external figures and I didn't know that using them was possible in XeTeX.) OK, I see where XeTeX has its strong points. And I can certainly agree: if you want unusual glyphs that are not part of a more-or-less standard encoding, that can be a PITA. Two other reasons why I'm sometimes using XeTeX is the ability to use any font and the ability to use any glyph without too much troubles (all that might be possible in pdfTeX, but even now that I potentially know how to do that, I stil find it too cumbersome - too much work just for the sake of being able to use a single font for a title somewhere on a poster - too much overhelm). Well ... another reason might be just because it's fun to play a bit ;) You can do a lot more than that (typeset the most obscure scripts in the world), but if you don't ask for it, you probably don't need it either. Yes, I was just wondering how much time I should spend on ``playing a bit.'' Well ... I didn't manage to get over this (buggy windows tools - neither lcdftypetools nor texfont worked properly) and aferwards I didn't want to take time for it (I know that it's history, not the future, so it makes no sense to loose time with it). But if you don't have problems like the one described above, if you don't need fancy apple fonts and if the desired fonts work OK for you, there's probably no reason to switch. And when talking about should I switch to XeTeX: The nice thing about ConTeXt is that you usually shouldn't notice the difference at any point of the document except for possibly sligthly different line with font definitions. I assume that once the integration of opentype in luatex is finished, this will be even more straightforward, giving us access to many opentype features. I'm just wondering if it makes sense to spend more time here It depends on what you consider spend more time. If I'm not counting the time reading the XeTeX mailing list, writing feature requests or doing minor fixes in code or on the wiki from time to time, there's basically no additional time involved. It simply works out of the box. Well, that depends on your needs: the only ``exotic'' script that I use on a regular basis is polytonic Greek, and this works indeed out of the box (very impressive), but in my quick tests, failed to work as soon as I added the mapping=tex-text command to the font. But your post has been immensely helpful, Mojca. Thanks for your time, I really see where XeTeX is useful, but I also see that it probably won't do a lot for me. Best Thomas ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
On Jan 22, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Hans Hagen wrote: [GFSDidot] is not a prettu sight anyway; does it fail when you don;t use those []'s? Hans Yes, it breaks without the []. Just came back from a day of excruciatingly boring meetings... Thanks Thomas ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: 2. When generating the formats, texexec complained about unknow control sequence because of lines 25 and 26 in syst-xtx.tex \setcclcuc 201C 201C 201C \setcclcuc 201D 201D 201D I had to comment out these lines to generate the formats (this is with a texlive2007 snapshot of last week and the latest ConTeXt). Is this a known bug? In the latest context, this is a known problem. But the TeXlive should be ok, so ypou have me a bit worried. Are you sure it was the latest snapshot and it did not accidentally read one of the non-tl files? Best, Taco ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Uhm, maybe I wasn't quite clear: the entire TeX foundation is the current texlive head; I last sync'd on Jan 17. ConTeXt version is 2007.01.18. A look at the log doesn't reveal anything unusual, here's the beginning and end of the log file: This is XeTeXk, Version 3.141592-2.2-0.996 (Web2C 7.5.6) (INITEX) 21 JAN 2007 12:27 entering extended mode \write18 enabled. %-line parsing enabled. (WARNING: translate-file natural.tcx ignored) ***cont-en (/usr/local/texlive/2007/../texmf-local/tex/context/base/cont-en.tex (/usr/local/texlive/2007/../texmf-local/tex/context/base/context.tex (/usr/local/texlive/2007/../texmf-local/tex/context/base/syst-pln.tex [snip] (/usr/local/texlive/2007/../texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-spe.tex) (/usr/local/texlive/2007/../texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-akb.tex) (/usr/local/texlive/2007/../texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-xtx.tex)) ConTeXt ver: 2007.01.18 12:57 MKII fmt: 2007.1.21 int: english/ english Does that sound right? Best Thomas On Jan 21, 2007, at 3:11 PM, Taco Hoekwater wrote: In the latest context, this is a known problem. But the TeXlive should be ok, so ypou have me a bit worried. Are you sure it was the latest snapshot and it did not accidentally read one of the non-tl files? Best, Taco ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
On 1/21/07, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
I'm trying (once again) to find out if learning something about XeTeX
is worth the trouble. So far, I haven't seen any compelling reason,
but I'd like to experiment a bit more. Here are two questions I have
run into:
1. in the wiki pages Talk:XeTeX, there's this anonymous piece of
wisdom:
Perhaps I forgot to log in when I've put that note to the wiki ;)
I requested that feature in XeTeX and yet: it's now implemented in
LaTeX, but not in ConTeXt. (When Adam became a father, sad times have
started for fonts in ConTeXt ;)
Referencing fonts by filenames
(just a note from the XeTeX mailing list as a reminder for later)
in texmf.cnf:
OPENTYPEFONTS = .;$TEXMF/fonts/opentype//;c:/Resources/Fonts//
Then
\setromanfont{[KalligraphiaLTStd.otf]}
Is this possible or usable in ConTeXt? I have lots of OpenType fonts
in ~/texmf/fonts/opentype, but not installed as system fonts, and
would like to see whether they can just be used with XeTeX as with
vanilla pdftex. texmf.cnf is set up accordingly, but so far, I
haven't had any success.
Hmmm ... you can use OpenType fonts in XeTeX in a plain-TeX-way like that:
\font\a=[KalligraphiaLTStd] \a
But there's no high level interface for it yet. The relevant pieces
are in font-ini.tex:
%D For \XETEX\ we need to support a bit more:
%D
%D \starttyping
%D \definedfont[{cmr10} at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont['cmss10' at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont[cmtt10 at 40pt] test
%D
%D \definedfont[{cmr10} at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont['cmss10' at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont[cmtt10 at 40pt] test
%D
%D \definedfont[Gentium at 40pt] test
%D \stoptyping
But one would also need \definedfont[[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt] or
a similar command (double brackets look ugly anyway) to pass the same
font name to XeTeX. If some TeXacker knows how to fix the low level
macros responsible for it ... ;)
I was silently hoping that once that Taco or Hans implement the same
feature in luatex, one of them would also fix the corresponding macros
for XeTeX. My knowledge doesn't suffice for it.
2. When generating the formats, texexec complained about unknow
control sequence because of lines 25 and 26 in syst-xtx.tex
\setcclcuc 201C 201C 201C
\setcclcuc 201D 201D 201D
I had to comment out these lines to generate the formats (this is
with a texlive2007 snapshot of last week and the latest ConTeXt). Is
this a known bug?
Change it to \setcclcucx or wait until Hans uploads a new version ;)
Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: Uhm, maybe I wasn't quite clear: the entire TeX foundation is the current texlive head; I last sync'd on Jan 17. ConTeXt version is 2007.01.18. A look at the log doesn't reveal anything unusual, here's the beginning and end of the log file: ConTeXt ver: 2007.01.18 12:57 MKII fmt: 2007.1.21 int: english/ english Does that sound right? Ah ok. 2007.01.18 is broken indeed, but that is not the 'core' one on TeXLive, that has 2007.01.12 15:56, and I am not going to update that one any more. Best, Taco ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
But one would also need \definedfont[[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt] or
a similar command (double brackets look ugly anyway) to pass the same
Have you tried
\definedfont[{[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt}]
yet? Sorry, I have simply no time to toy around with XeTeX myself.
Best, Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
But one would also need \definedfont[[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt] or
a similar command (double brackets look ugly anyway) to pass the same
Have you tried
\definedfont[{[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt}]
yet? Sorry, I have simply no time to toy around with XeTeX myself.
Best, Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
On Jan 21, 2007, at 5:51 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
I requested that feature in XeTeX and yet: it's now implemented in
LaTeX, but not in ConTeXt. (When Adam became a father, sad times have
started for fonts in ConTeXt ;)
Oh that's where Adam has been hanging out lately! I was wondering
what became of him...
Hmmm ... you can use OpenType fonts in XeTeX in a plain-TeX-way
like that:
\font\a=[KalligraphiaLTStd] \a
But there's no high level interface for it yet. The relevant pieces
are in font-ini.tex:
%D For \XETEX\ we need to support a bit more:
%D
%D \starttyping
%D \definedfont[{cmr10} at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont['cmss10' at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont[cmtt10 at 40pt] test
%D
%D \definedfont[{cmr10} at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont['cmss10' at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont[cmtt10 at 40pt] test
%D
%D \definedfont[Gentium at 40pt] test
%D \stoptyping
But one would also need \definedfont[[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt] or
a similar command (double brackets look ugly anyway) to pass the same
font name to XeTeX. If some TeXacker knows how to fix the low level
macros responsible for it ... ;)
I was silently hoping that once that Taco or Hans implement the same
feature in luatex, one of them would also fix the corresponding macros
for XeTeX. My knowledge doesn't suffice for it.
OK, I see; thanks for clearing that up, Mojca. Since I have no
pressing need, I guess I will leave it at that.
But since I know that you've done a lot of work on XeTeX in ConTeXt,
I'd really like to know: what exactly can XeTeX do that would make me
want to take a more thorough look at it? After a sometimes painful
learning curve, I find it nowadays relatively easy to make my
opentype fonts work in ConTeXt. I assume that once the integration of
opentype in luatex is finished, this will be even more
straightforward, giving us access to many opentype features. I'm just
wondering if it makes sense to spend more time here or if the XeTeX
project will be eaten by its own success, as it were, as most of what
it offers becomes integrated into lua/metatex. If you can spare two
minutes, I'd be very grateful to have your thoughts on this.
Change it to \setcclcucx or wait until Hans uploads a new version ;)
Mojca
Yes sorry, I saw your post on context-devel only after posting my
question.
Thanks a lot!
Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
On 1/21/07, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
But one would also need \definedfont[[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt] or
a similar command (double brackets look ugly anyway) to pass the same
Have you tried
\definedfont[{[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt}]
Hmmm ... not until you suggested it ;)
Thanks a lot! (Why on earth haven't I thought about that before?)
That basically means that now I can finally try to add a bunch of
(although ugly, but at least working) definitions to get the OpenType
version of LM version used by default when launching XeTeX. (I tried
it already and it seems to work OK, but it has to be completed and
cleaned a bit first.)
Now I only have to figure out what is happening with map files. There
were some complaints a few days ago (and at that time it worked OK on
my computer). Now, when I tried to use OpenType LM, it complains about
wrong (dvips) map files (my TeXLive installation is not the most
recent one). But I noticed that there were some dvipdfm map files for
lm added to TeXLive recently, so I hope that the problem will go away.
Mojca
lm-naive.tex
Description: TeX document
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Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Taco Hoekwater wrote: Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: Uhm, maybe I wasn't quite clear: the entire TeX foundation is the current texlive head; I last sync'd on Jan 17. ConTeXt version is 2007.01.18. A look at the log doesn't reveal anything unusual, here's the beginning and end of the log file: ConTeXt ver: 2007.01.18 12:57 MKII fmt: 2007.1.21 int: english/ english Does that sound right? Ah ok. 2007.01.18 is broken indeed, but that is not the 'core' one on TeXLive, that has 2007.01.12 15:56, and I am not going to update that one any more. indeed, we're now in post-texlive-2007 mode, also because we're movign forward to more drastic (internal) changes due to mkiv integration Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
But one would also need \definedfont[[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt] or
a similar command (double brackets look ugly anyway) to pass the same
Have you tried
\definedfont[{[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt}]
yet? Sorry, I have simply no time to toy around with XeTeX myself.
or
\def\xetexfontspec#1{[#1]}
(or maybe \unexpanded\def\xetexfontspec#1{[#1]})
Hans
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| www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: But since I know that you've done a lot of work on XeTeX in ConTeXt, I'd really like to know: what exactly can XeTeX do that would make me want to take a more thorough look at it? After a sometimes painful learning curve, I find it nowadays relatively easy to make my opentype fonts work in ConTeXt. I assume that once the integration of opentype in luatex is finished, this will be even more straightforward, giving us access to many opentype features. I'm just wondering if it makes sense to spend more time here or if the XeTeX project will be eaten by its own success, as it were, as most of what it offers becomes integrated into lua/metatex. If you can spare two minutes, I'd be very grateful to have your thoughts on this. fonts is more than definitions; esp a the level of supporting features and runtime manipulating fonts, xetex and luatex will undoubtely differ; also, xetex uses external font libraries, while luatex does things internaly and under user/macro conytrol (with defaults); due to the nature of fonts, both systems will share characteristics ... the future will learn; from context's point of view ... we will provide a high level interface so users will probably not notice the gory details Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ ntg-context mailing list ntg-context@ntg.nl http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Well don't laugh: I tried your suggestion and found that this works:
\definedfont[{{[GFSDidot] at 20pt}}]
the two pairs of braces seem to be needed. Not a pretty sight, though...
Best
Thomas
On Jan 21, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Have you tried
\definedfont[{[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt}]
yet? Sorry, I have simply no time to toy around with XeTeX myself.
Best, Taco
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Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
Hmmm ... you can use OpenType fonts in XeTeX in a plain-TeX-way like that:
\font\a=[KalligraphiaLTStd] \a
hm, weird syntax
But there's no high level interface for it yet. The relevant pieces
are in font-ini.tex:
%D For \XETEX\ we need to support a bit more:
%D
%D \starttyping
%D \definedfont[{cmr10} at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont['cmss10' at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont[cmtt10 at 40pt] test
%D
%D \definedfont[{cmr10} at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont['cmss10' at 40pt] test
%D \definedfont[cmtt10 at 40pt] test
%D
%D \definedfont[Gentium at 40pt] test
%D \stoptyping
But one would also need \definedfont[[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt] or
a similar command (double brackets look ugly anyway) to pass the same
font name to XeTeX. If some TeXacker knows how to fix the low level
macros responsible for it ... ;)
won't work ... context cannot handle nested [] without much trickery and
i' really dislike that syntax
I was silently hoping that once that Taco or Hans implement the same
feature in luatex, one of them would also fix the corresponding macros
for XeTeX. My knowledge doesn't suffice for it.
why are the nested [] needed
(btw, later this year i may come up with an extension to the font
definition macros more suitable for open type; in that case we can
convert to xetex syntax behind the screens)
2. When generating the formats, texexec complained about unknow
control sequence because of lines 25 and 26 in syst-xtx.tex
\setcclcuc 201C 201C 201C
\setcclcuc 201D 201D 201D
I had to comment out these lines to generate the formats (this is
with a texlive2007 snapshot of last week and the latest ConTeXt). Is
this a known bug?
the enco-utf file is now shared between xetex and luatex in mkii mode;
luatex in mkiv mode does things differently
Change it to \setcclcucx or wait until Hans uploads a new version ;)
done, but no upload yet
Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] XeTeX questions
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
On 1/21/07, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
But one would also need \definedfont[[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt] or
a similar command (double brackets look ugly anyway) to pass the same
Have you tried
\definedfont[{[KalligraphiaLTStd] at 40pt}]
Hmmm ... not until you suggested it ;)
Thanks a lot! (Why on earth haven't I thought about that before?)
because it may work or not, depending on if the argument is passed on to
submacros using [] as delimiter; taco knows such dirty details -)
That basically means that now I can finally try to add a bunch of
(although ugly, but at least working) definitions to get the OpenType
version of LM version used by default when launching XeTeX. (I tried
it already and it seems to work OK, but it has to be completed and
cleaned a bit first.)
are these [] really needed?
Now I only have to figure out what is happening with map files. There
were some complaints a few days ago (and at that time it worked OK on
my computer). Now, when I tried to use OpenType LM, it complains about
wrong (dvips) map files (my TeXLive installation is not the most
recent one). But I noticed that there were some dvipdfm map files for
lm added to TeXLive recently, so I hope that the problem will go away.
see taco's mail
Hans
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