Re: [Numpy-discussion] Sustainability
Could you elaborate on the purpose of the meeting, or perhaps point to a link with a description if there is one? Sustainability is a very broad topic. What do you plan on discussing? -Joe On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: > Hi All, > > I and a number of others representing various open source projects under the > NumFocus umbrella will be attending as meeting next Tuesday do discuss the > problem of sustainability. In preparation for that meeting I would be > interested in any ideas that the folks who follow this list may have on the > subject. > > Chuck > > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list > NumPy-Discussion@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion > ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Sustainability
One thing that concerns me is trying to keep up with demand. Our tools have become extremely popular, but it is very difficult for maintainers to keep up with this demand. So, we seem to have a tendency to "tribalize", in a sense, focusing on the demand for our respective pet projects. Various projects have created excellent tools for better managing the high demand such as circleci doc build views, back-porting bots, lint checking settings, vim/emacs settings, etc. These are important tools to help maintainers, and other projects need to know about them. Perhaps these dev tools should get centrally managed? Maybe we should have a "developer's conference"? It would be good to learn from others their techniques and workflows that make them so efficient. I swear, some of you have time-turners or cloning machines! Cheers! Ben Root On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Joseph Fox-Rabinovitz < jfoxrabinov...@gmail.com> wrote: > Could you elaborate on the purpose of the meeting, or perhaps point to > a link with a description if there is one? Sustainability is a very > broad topic. What do you plan on discussing? > > -Joe > > On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Charles R Harris > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I and a number of others representing various open source projects under > the > > NumFocus umbrella will be attending as meeting next Tuesday do discuss > the > > problem of sustainability. In preparation for that meeting I would be > > interested in any ideas that the folks who follow this list may have on > the > > subject. > > > > Chuck > > > > ___ > > NumPy-Discussion mailing list > > NumPy-Discussion@python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion > > > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list > NumPy-Discussion@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion > ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Sustainability
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 4:03 AM, Benjamin Root wrote: > One thing that concerns me is trying to keep up with demand. Our tools > have become extremely popular, but it is very difficult for maintainers to > keep up with this demand. So, we seem to have a tendency to "tribalize", in > a sense, focusing on the demand for our respective pet projects. Various > projects have created excellent tools for better managing the high demand > such as circleci doc build views, back-porting bots, lint checking > settings, vim/emacs settings, etc. These are important tools to help > maintainers, and other projects need to know about them. > Yes, this is a great topic. We informally share these kinds of tools and techniques between projects, but there's no central place for any of them nor docs other than "read my code and yml config files". > Perhaps these dev tools should get centrally managed? Maybe we should have > a "developer's conference"? It would be good to learn from others their > techniques and workflows that make them so efficient. I swear, some of you > have time-turners or cloning machines! > > Cheers! > Ben Root > > > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Joseph Fox-Rabinovitz < > jfoxrabinov...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Could you elaborate on the purpose of the meeting, or perhaps point to >> a link with a description if there is one? Sustainability is a very >> broad topic. What do you plan on discussing? >> > It's going to be a broad workshop, anything from dev tools to finding new maintainers, the role of community managers, and obtaining funding is in scope. Part of the preparation for organizing the workshop was interviews with a core developer from every project. I'd be interested in the replies to Chuck's question to get a sense of what the community thinks are NumPy's key challenges to remain (or become ...) a sustainable project in the years to come. Ralf > >> -Joe >> >> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Charles R Harris >> wrote: >> > Hi All, >> > >> > I and a number of others representing various open source projects >> under the >> > NumFocus umbrella will be attending as meeting next Tuesday do discuss >> the >> > problem of sustainability. In preparation for that meeting I would be >> > interested in any ideas that the folks who follow this list may have on >> the >> > subject. >> > >> > Chuck >> > >> > ___ >> > NumPy-Discussion mailing list >> > NumPy-Discussion@python.org >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion >> > >> ___ >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list >> NumPy-Discussion@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion >> > > > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list > NumPy-Discussion@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion > > ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Sustainability
Hello Chuck, Sustainability is indeed a broad topic and I think it's all too easy to think broadly about it. Please do discuss the big picture, but I am far more interested in the practical day-to-day action items that result from such a meeting. Here are my concerns with regards NumPy specifically: * How to handle the backlog of pull requests. * How to advertise outstanding issues that could be tackled by developers that are new to NumPy (like myself). This maybe just being more aggressive with the "Difficulty" tag. * Coding style has changed within the code-base over time and it would good to have a handful of functions one can point to as examples to follow. Notice these are all on the "ease of contributing" side of sustainability. I can't address the perhaps larger issues of ecosystem integration but I suspect NumPy doesn't suffer from being ignored. As to sponsored work or financial support, I'll look forward to the report that comes out of these meetings. Thanks for bringing this up here on the mailing list, Johann On Tue, 2017-10-03 at 17:04 -0600, Charles R Harris wrote: > Hi All, > > I and a number of others representing various open source projects > under the NumFocus umbrella will be attending as meeting next Tuesday > do discuss the problem of sustainability. In preparation for that > meeting I would be interested in any ideas that the folks who follow > this list may have on the subject. > > Chuck > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list > NumPy-Discussion@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] Sustainability
I have two points that I know, from first hand, people (including myself) wonder: 1. Clear distinction between NumPy/SciPy development and respective roadmaps. In addition to Johann's summary; I am an occasional contributor to SciPy (mostly linalg) and again occasionally I wonder whether certain stuff can be done on NumPy side or how to sync linalg issues lingering due to say legacy reasons etc. So I start reading the source code. However in particular to NumPy, it is extremely difficult for me to find an entry point on how things actually work or what core team has in mind about the SciPy/NumPy separation. Story gets really complicated by invoking the backwards compatibility issues, say the recent dropping the Accelerate support discussion. There are so many details to take care of, I can only mention how I'm impressed with the work you guys pulled off over the years. If sustainability is meant for widening the spectrum of contributors, some care is needed for initialization of us even in the form of contribution guide or which files stay where. This would also return as ease of reviewing and less weight on the core team. 2. Feature completeness of basic modules. I have been in contact with a few companies, probing the opportunities about open-source usage in my domain of expertise. Many of them mentioned the feature incompleteness of the basics. One person used the analogy of potholes and bumpy ride in the linalg module "How come <...> is there but <...> is not?" . So it creates a maintenance obligation of a code base that not so many use. Another person used the term "a bit of this, a bit of that". Same applies for NumPy side too. I hope these won't be taken as complaints, I just want to give the perspective I've gained in the last few months. But similar to other "huge" projects in open source domain, it seems to me that if there is a plan to attract interest of commercial 3rd parties for funding or simply donations, it would really help if they can see some clear planning or a better structure. Best, ilhan On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 5:31 PM, John T. Goetz wrote: > Hello Chuck, > Sustainability is indeed a broad topic and I think it's all too easy to > think broadly about it. Please do discuss the big picture, but I am far > more interested in the practical day-to-day action items that result > from such a meeting. Here are my concerns with regards NumPy > specifically: > > * How to handle the backlog of pull requests. > > * How to advertise outstanding issues that could be tackled by > developers that are new to NumPy (like myself). This maybe just being > more aggressive with the "Difficulty" tag. > > * Coding style has changed within the code-base over time and it would > good to have a handful of functions one can point to as examples to > follow. > > Notice these are all on the "ease of contributing" side of > sustainability. I can't address the perhaps larger issues of ecosystem > integration but I suspect NumPy doesn't suffer from being ignored. As > to sponsored work or financial support, I'll look forward to the report > that comes out of these meetings. > > Thanks for bringing this up here on the mailing list, > Johann > > On Tue, 2017-10-03 at 17:04 -0600, Charles R Harris wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I and a number of others representing various open source projects > > under the NumFocus umbrella will be attending as meeting next Tuesday > > do discuss the problem of sustainability. In preparation for that > > meeting I would be interested in any ideas that the folks who follow > > this list may have on the subject. > > > > Chuck > > ___ > > NumPy-Discussion mailing list > > NumPy-Discussion@python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion > ___ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list > NumPy-Discussion@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion > ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
