[Numpy-discussion] spam on the mailing lists

[Andras Deak]

Hi All,

Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy and
scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
while.

Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from new list
members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't many emails,
especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that ensure no
false positives in filtering.

Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such emails
if needed.
Cheers,

András
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ralf Gommers]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy and
> scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
> mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
> while.
>

I don't see these on
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/, nor did
I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in the
archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?

Ralf


> Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from new
> list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't many
> emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
> ensure no false positives in filtering.
>
> Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such emails
> if needed.
> Cheers,
>
> András
> ___
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> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Andras Deak]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak  wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy and
>> scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
>> mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
>> while.
>>
>
> I don't see these on
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/, nor
> did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in the
> archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?
>

Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest
thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/

András



> Ralf
>
>
>> Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from new
>> list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't many
>> emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
>> ensure no false positives in filtering.
>>
>> Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such
>> emails if needed.
>> Cheers,
>>
>> András
>> ___
>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>>
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> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Andras Deak]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:28 AM Andras Deak  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy and
>>> scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
>>> mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
>>> while.
>>>
>>
>> I don't see these on
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/, nor
>> did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in the
>> archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?
>>
>
> Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest
> thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/
>

Found the permalink: (warning, spam link there)
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/message/MWI6AKF4QNQ45532MVA3XOXYW5GDFL6O/



> András
>
>
>
>> Ralf
>>
>>
>>> Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from new
>>> list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't many
>>> emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
>>> ensure no false positives in filtering.
>>>
>>> Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such
>>> emails if needed.
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> András
>>> ___
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>>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>>> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>>>
>> ___
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>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com
>>
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ralf Gommers]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:33 AM Andras Deak  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:28 AM Andras Deak 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi All,

 Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy
 and scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
 mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
 while.

>>>
>>> I don't see these on
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/, nor
>>> did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in the
>>> archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?
>>>
>>
>> Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest
>> thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/
>>
>
> Found the permalink: (warning, spam link there)
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/message/MWI6AKF4QNQ45532MVA3XOXYW5GDFL6O/
>

Thanks!


>>>
 Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from new
 list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't many
 emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
 ensure no false positives in filtering.

>>>
We don't have admin access to the python.org lists, so this is a bit of a
problem. We have never had a spam problem, so we can ask to block this user
first. If it continues to happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber
emails, but we do need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll
get them.

A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has far
better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more approachable for
people not used to mailing lists (which is most newcomers to open source).
Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the new CZI grant having a focus on
improving the contributor experience, we should be able to do this.

Cheers,
Ralf



>
 Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such
 emails if needed.
 Cheers,

 András
 ___
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 https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
 Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com

>>> ___
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>>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>>> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com
>>>
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> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Andras Deak]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:02 PM Ralf Gommers 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:33 AM Andras Deak 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:28 AM Andras Deak 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak 
 wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy
> and scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
> mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
> while.
>

 I don't see these on
 https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/,
 nor did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in
 the archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?

>>>
>>> Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest
>>> thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/
>>>
>>
>> Found the permalink: (warning, spam link there)
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/message/MWI6AKF4QNQ45532MVA3XOXYW5GDFL6O/
>>
>
> Thanks!
>
>

> Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from new
> list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't many
> emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
> ensure no false positives in filtering.
>

> We don't have admin access to the python.org lists, so this is a bit of a
> problem. We have never had a spam problem, so we can ask to block this user
> first. If it continues to happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber
> emails, but we do need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll
> get them.
>

Unfortunately (but unsurprisingly) there are multiple accounts doing this
https://mail.python.org/archives/search?q=bit.ly&page=1&sort=date-desc
This is why I figured that an _a posteriori_ whack-a-mole against these
specific users might not be a feasible solution to the underlying problem.

András



> A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has far
> better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more approachable for
> people not used to mailing lists (which is most newcomers to open source).
> Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the new CZI grant having a focus on
> improving the contributor experience, we should be able to do this.
>
> Cheers,
> Ralf
>
>
>
>>
> Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such
> emails if needed.
> Cheers,
>
> András
> ___
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> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>
 ___
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 https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
 Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com

>>> ___
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>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>>
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> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ilhan Polat]

I'd like to reheat the proposition that we enable discussion feature on
GitHub for the repos. Not only this makes things a bit more streamlined
(transfer nonbug reports to discussions to handle noise there) but also
makes it easier to control the discussions. Moreover since it is GitHub
there are API-based ways to import mailing lists for NumPy and SciPy with a
bit less effort.

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:11 PM Andras Deak  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:02 PM Ralf Gommers 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:33 AM Andras Deak 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:28 AM Andras Deak 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers 
 wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy
>> and scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
>> mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
>> while.
>>
>
> I don't see these on
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/,
> nor did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in
> the archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?
>

 Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest
 thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of
 https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/

>>>
>>> Found the permalink: (warning, spam link there)
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/message/MWI6AKF4QNQ45532MVA3XOXYW5GDFL6O/
>>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>
>> Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from
>> new list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't 
>> many
>> emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
>> ensure no false positives in filtering.
>>
>
>> We don't have admin access to the python.org lists, so this is a bit of
>> a problem. We have never had a spam problem, so we can ask to block this
>> user first. If it continues to happen, we may be able to moderate new
>> subscriber emails, but we do need to ask for permissions first and I'm not
>> sure we'll get them.
>>
>
> Unfortunately (but unsurprisingly) there are multiple accounts doing this
> https://mail.python.org/archives/search?q=bit.ly&page=1&sort=date-desc
> This is why I figured that an _a posteriori_ whack-a-mole against these
> specific users might not be a feasible solution to the underlying problem.
>
> András
>
>
>
>> A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has far
>> better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more approachable for
>> people not used to mailing lists (which is most newcomers to open source).
>> Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the new CZI grant having a focus on
>> improving the contributor experience, we should be able to do this.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ralf
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>> Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such
>> emails if needed.
>> Cheers,
>>
>> András
>> ___
>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>>
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com
>
 ___
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>>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>>> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>>>
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>> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com
>>
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> Member address: ilhanpo...@gmail.com
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Roman Yurchak]

Yes, there is also lots of such spam on other @python.org mailing lists 
lately.


I sent a message to postmaster / python.org about it earlier today. Will 
get back once there is a response.


--
Roman

On 29/09/2021 11:28, Andras Deak wrote:
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers > wrote:




On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak mailto:deak.and...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi All,

Today both of the python.org  mailing lists
I'm subscribed to (numpy and scipy-dev) got the same kind of
link shortener spam. I assume all the mailing lists started
getting these, and that these won't go away for a while.


I don't see these on
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/
, nor
did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it
in the archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?


Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest 
thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/ 



András

Ralf


Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails
from new list members? Assuming the engine even supports that.
There aren't many emails, especially from new members, and I
can't think of other ways that ensure no false positives in
filtering.

Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate
such emails if needed.
Cheers,

András
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numpy-discussion-le...@python.org

https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/

Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com


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Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com 


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[Numpy-discussion] ANN: SfePy 2021.3

[Robert Cimrman]

I am pleased to announce the release of SfePy 2021.3.

Description
---

SfePy (simple finite elements in Python) is a software for solving systems of
coupled partial differential equations by finite element methods. It is
distributed under the new BSD license.

Home page: https://sfepy.org
Mailing list: https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/sfepy.python.org/
Git (source) repository, issue tracker: https://github.com/sfepy/sfepy

Highlights of this release
--

- unified volume and surface integration terms
- improved pyvista-based visualization script

For full release notes see [1].

Cheers,
Robert Cimrman

[1] http://docs.sfepy.org/doc/release_notes.html#id1

---

Contributors to this release in alphabetical order:

Robert Cimrman
Hugo Levy
Vladimir Lukes

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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Stefan van der Walt]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 03:02, Ralf Gommers wrote:
> We don't have admin access to the python.org lists, so this is a bit of a 
> problem. We have never had a spam problem, so we can ask to block this user 
> first. If it continues to happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber 
> emails, but we do need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll 
> get them.
> 
> A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has far better 
> moderation tools than Mailman and is also more approachable for people not 
> used to mailing lists (which is most newcomers to open source). Migrating is 
> a bit of a pain, but with the new CZI grant having a focus on improving the 
> contributor experience, we should be able to do this.

I would like to offer the use of https://discuss.scientific-python.org.  I 
would be happy to handle email list migration, and have created the following 
two categories for NumPy discussion:

User discussion: https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/user/numpy 

Contributor discussion: 
https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/contributor/numpy 


We're happy to support this as part of the Scientific Python ecosystem grant, 
and will give admin rights to anyone on the NumPy developer team who wants to 
help manage / moderate discussions.

Of course, we can also just delete these if the team prefers to have their 
discussions somewhere else.  But I think there is a benefit to bringing 
community discussions together in one place.

Best regards,
Stéfan
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: Running numpy.test() after pip install

[Ralf Gommers]

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 10:39 PM Aaron Meurer  wrote:

> Could numpy include a variant (I'm not sure what setuptools calls
> this) so that 'pip install numpy[tests]' installs those extra
> dependencies?
>

I'd prefer not to, those things aren't great for maintenance/testing, and
if you have to read the docs to know how to spell `numpy[tests]` you may
just as well write it `pip install numpy pytest hypothesis`. There's also
no one set of extra dependencies people will want - what about running
benchmarks, optional test dependencies, etc.?

Cheers,
Ralf



> Aaron Meurer
>
> On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 11:33 AM Ralf Gommers 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 7:07 PM Kevin Sheppard <
> kevin.k.shepp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think NumPy has always tried to have effectively no install
> dependencies at least when installed from source (minimal install from git
> only requires Cython).  This seems like a good goal to me and there are
> scenarios where extra packages are a burden (e.g., Amazon Lambda).  AFAICT
> pretty much every package in the numerical python ecosystem excludes test
> dependencies from setup requires or install requires.
> >
> >
> > Agreed. We don't want to make any changes here, if you want to run the
> tests you can just install pytest and hypothesis.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ralf
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Kevin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Bennet Fauber
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 6:00 PM
> >> To: numpy-discussion@python.org
> >> Subject: [Numpy-discussion] Running numpy.test() after pip install
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I just installed NumPy using pip and Python 3.9.7 on CentOS 7.9.
> >>
> >> Installation went fine, but when I ran
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >>> import numpy
> >>
> >> >>> numpy.test()
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I got a traceback, and this summary.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> === short test summary info
> 
> >>
> >> ERROR  - ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'hypothesis'
> >>
> >>  Interrupted: 1 error during collection
> 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It seems that both hypothesis and pytest are needed to run numpy.test().
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> We like to be able to run all the tests even after a pip install, and
> >>
> >> being able to run some of the tests from pip-installed numpy is useful
> >>
> >> as well.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> May I suggest you add those two packages as dependencies for NumPy at
> >>
> >> PyPi?  Neither are particularly large, both are generally useful, and
> >>
> >> I think the potential utility for those who would ike to check on
> >>
> >> their own system for anomalies outweighs the minimal impact on the
> >>
> >> majority of users who would not use it but would also probably not
> >>
> >> notice their presence.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If adding them as dependencies seems to heavy weight, or is otherwised
> >>
> >> deemed undesirable, perhaps just a note in the Project Description at
> >>
> >> https://pypi.org/project/numpy/ to say that, if you want to run tests,
> >>
> >> those two packages will be needed?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks,-- bennet
> >>
> >> ___
> >>
> >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
> >>
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
> >>
> >> Member address: kevin.k.shepp...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
> >> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
> >
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: Running numpy.test() after pip install

[Robert Kern]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 3:50 PM Ralf Gommers  wrote:

>
> On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 10:39 PM Aaron Meurer  wrote:
>
>> Could numpy include a variant (I'm not sure what setuptools calls
>> this) so that 'pip install numpy[tests]' installs those extra
>> dependencies?
>>
>
> I'd prefer not to, those things aren't great for maintenance/testing, and
> if you have to read the docs to know how to spell `numpy[tests]` you may
> just as well write it `pip install numpy pytest hypothesis`. There's also
> no one set of extra dependencies people will want - what about running
> benchmarks, optional test dependencies, etc.?
>

I think Bennet's request to add this to the `long_description` that shows
up on PyPI is eminently reasonable, though.

>> If adding them as dependencies seems to heavy weight, or is otherwised
>> >> deemed undesirable, perhaps just a note in the Project Description at
>> >> https://pypi.org/project/numpy/ to say that, if you want to run tests,
>> >> those two packages will be needed?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,-- bennet
>
>
-- 
Robert Kern
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: Running numpy.test() after pip install

[Ralf Gommers]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:54 PM Robert Kern  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 3:50 PM Ralf Gommers 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 10:39 PM Aaron Meurer  wrote:
>>
>>> Could numpy include a variant (I'm not sure what setuptools calls
>>> this) so that 'pip install numpy[tests]' installs those extra
>>> dependencies?
>>>
>>
>> I'd prefer not to, those things aren't great for maintenance/testing, and
>> if you have to read the docs to know how to spell `numpy[tests]` you may
>> just as well write it `pip install numpy pytest hypothesis`. There's also
>> no one set of extra dependencies people will want - what about running
>> benchmarks, optional test dependencies, etc.?
>>
>
> I think Bennet's request to add this to the `long_description` that shows
> up on PyPI is eminently reasonable, though.
>

Yes I agree. We should fix the description in the main README (hypothesis
is missing there), and then sync the README content to `long_description`.

Ralf


> >> If adding them as dependencies seems to heavy weight, or is otherwised
>>> >> deemed undesirable, perhaps just a note in the Project Description at
>>> >> https://pypi.org/project/numpy/ to say that, if you want to run
>>> tests,
>>> >> those two packages will be needed?
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks,-- bennet
>>
>>
> --
> Robert Kern
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ralf Gommers]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:51 PM Ilhan Polat  wrote:

> I'd like to reheat the proposition that we enable discussion feature on
> GitHub for the repos. Not only this makes things a bit more streamlined
> (transfer nonbug reports to discussions to handle noise there) but also
> makes it easier to control the discussions. Moreover since it is GitHub
> there are API-based ways to import mailing lists for NumPy and SciPy with a
> bit less effort.
>

This was discussed in the community meeting today. No one was really
enthusiastic, concerns that were brought up included the lack of an email
interface, and an unclear boundary between issues and discussions.

If we move, importing the mailing list archives will clearly be important
though, any replacement should be able to do this.

Cheers,
Ralf
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Stefan van der Walt]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 13:58, Ralf Gommers wrote:
> This was discussed in the community meeting today. No one was really 
> enthusiastic, concerns that were brought up included the lack of an email 
> interface, and an unclear boundary between issues and discussions.

FWIW, Discourse has an email interface.  I'm not sure what is meant by "unclear 
boundary between issues and discussions"—that is not something our mailing list 
provides either.

> If we move, importing the mailing list archives will clearly be important 
> though, any replacement should be able to do this.

python.org allows us to download an mbox backup of numpy-discussion, and this 
archive can be imported into discourse.  I'd be happy to do so as a proof of 
concept, if that would be helpful.

Stéfan
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ralf Gommers]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:32 PM Stefan van der Walt 
wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 13:58, Ralf Gommers wrote:
>
> This was discussed in the community meeting today. No one was really
> enthusiastic, concerns that were brought up included the lack of an email
> interface, and an unclear boundary between issues and discussions.
>
>
> FWIW, Discourse has an email interface.  I'm not sure what is meant by
> "unclear boundary between issues and discussions"—that is not something our
> mailing list provides either.
>

That was specifically about GitHub Issues vs. GitHub Discussions. It's
often not clear if something is a bug or not, so moving items between those
two tabs can get confusing quickly. It wasn't my remark, but in the one
case where I tried out Discussions my experience was indeed the same -
visitors to the repo don't quite know which one to use.

Cheers,
Ralf



> If we move, importing the mailing list archives will clearly be important
> though, any replacement should be able to do this.
>
>
> python.org allows us to download an mbox backup of numpy-discussion, and
> this archive can be imported into discourse.  I'd be happy to do so as a
> proof of concept, if that would be helpful.
>
> Stéfan
>
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Stefan van der Walt]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 14:39, Ralf Gommers wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:32 PM Stefan van der Walt  
> wrote:
>> __
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 13:58, Ralf Gommers wrote:
>>> This was discussed in the community meeting today. No one was really 
>>> enthusiastic, concerns that were brought up included the lack of an email 
>>> interface, and an unclear boundary between issues and discussions.
>> 
>> FWIW, Discourse has an email interface.  I'm not sure what is meant by 
>> "unclear boundary between issues and discussions"—that is not something our 
>> mailing list provides either.
> 
> That was specifically about GitHub Issues vs. GitHub Discussions. It's often 
> not clear if something is a bug or not, so moving items between those two 
> tabs can get confusing quickly. It wasn't my remark, but in the one case 
> where I tried out Discussions my experience was indeed the same - visitors to 
> the repo don't quite know which one to use.

Ah, yes, that makes sense.  This will hopefully not be an issue for a dedicated 
forum then.

Stéfan
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Matti Picus]

On 29/9/21 9:07 pm, Stefan van der Walt wrote:

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 03:02, Ralf Gommers wrote:
We don't have admin access to the python.org  
lists, so this is a bit of a problem. We have never had a spam 
problem, so we can ask to block this user first. If it continues to 
happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber emails, but we do 
need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll get them.


A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has 
far better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more 
approachable for people not used to mailing lists (which is most 
newcomers to open source). Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the 
new CZI grant having a focus on improving the contributor experience, 
we should be able to do this.


I would like to offer the use of https://discuss.scientific-python.org 
. I would be happy to handle 
email list migration, and have created the following two categories 
for NumPy discussion:


User discussion: https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/user/numpy 

Contributor discussion: 
https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/contributor/numpy 



We're happy to support this as part of the Scientific Python ecosystem 
grant, and will give admin rights to anyone on the NumPy developer 
team who wants to help manage / moderate discussions.


Of course, we can also just delete these if the team prefers to have 
their discussions somewhere else.  But I think there is a benefit to 
bringing community discussions together in one place.


Best regards,
Stéfan



Thanks for the offer to host the discussions on discourse. Personally, I 
find the email interface to discourse very clunky. I would prefer we 
exhaust the possibilities to stay on e-mail only before moving to discourse.


Matti

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[Numpy-discussion] Re: A bite of C++

[Neal Becker]

A couple of questions from a quick casual reading

1. radixsort (void *start...)
Do we really need void*?  We don't know the type of start at compile time?

2. reinterpret_cast start (related to #1).

3. reinterpret_cast(malloc(num * sizeof(T)));
A C-ism.  Would it work to use  new T[num]?

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 10:03 PM Sebastian Berg
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2021-08-25 at 17:48 +0200, Serge Guelton wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > https://github.com/numpy/numpy/pull/19713 showcases what *could* be a
> > first step
> > toward getting rid of generated C code within numpy, in favor of some
> > C++ code,
> > coupled with a single macro trick.
>
>
> It seems time to pick up this discussion again.  I think we were
> cautiously in favor of trying this out in the limited proposed form.
>
> Aside from ensuring we do not use C++ exceptions/run-time environment.
> I.e. compile with `-fno-exception` and `-nostdlib`, the PR is probably
> largely ready.
>
> Are there any other bigger issues that need to be discussed?
>
>
> The goal for now seems to allow this type of function templates (C++ as
> a glorified templating language).  We may be able to enforce this with
> clang-tidy (not sure if that is necessary right away though).
> There are parts of NumPy (mainly `fft`) where more C++ features could
> be helpful but that should probably be discussed separately.
>
>
> The current solution ends up using no X-Macro anymore, which means
> listing the C symbols like:
>
> NPY_NO_EXPORT int radixsort_byte(void* vec, npy_intp cnt, void 
> *NPY_UNUSED(null)) { return radixsort(vec, cnt); }
> NPY_NO_EXPORT int radixsort_ubyte(void* vec, npy_intp cnt, void 
> *NPY_UNUSED(null)) { return radixsort(vec, cnt); }
> NPY_NO_EXPORT int radixsort_short(void* vec, npy_intp cnt, void 
> *NPY_UNUSED(null)) { return radixsort(vec, cnt); }
> NPY_NO_EXPORT int radixsort_ushort(void* vec, npy_intp cnt, void 
> *NPY_UNUSED(null)) { return radixsort(vec, cnt); }
> NPY_NO_EXPORT int radixsort_int(void* vec, npy_intp cnt, void 
> *NPY_UNUSED(null)) { return radixsort(vec, cnt); }
> NPY_NO_EXPORT int radixsort_uint(void* vec, npy_intp cnt, void 
> *NPY_UNUSED(null)) { return radixsort(vec, cnt); }
> NPY_NO_EXPORT int radixsort_long(void* vec, npy_intp cnt, void 
> *NPY_UNUSED(null)) { return radixsort(vec, cnt); }
> NPY_NO_EXPORT int radixsort_ulong(void* vec, npy_intp cnt, void 
> *NPY_UNUSED(null)) { return radixsort(vec, cnt); }
>
> I guess we could try to write some macro's to make this shorter,
> although I am fine with delaying this, since the main point is probably
> getting a brief example and the build changes in.
>
> It also defines the following type tags:
> https://github.com/numpy/numpy/pull/19713/files#diff-4de4beaecd7b0a1f4d887221191843a54b0c62f13eea18b8716c54bec9657f20
>
> Any comments to the approach (especially from anyone more familiar with
> C++) would be much appreciated!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sebastian
>
>
>
> >
> > Basically, templated code is an easy and robust way to replace
> > generated code
> > (the C++ compiler becomes the code generator when instantiating
> > code), and a
> > single X-macro takes care of the glue with the C world.
> >
> > Some changes in distutils were needed to cope with C++-specific
> > flags, and
> > extensions that consist in mixed C and C++ code.
> >
> > I've kept the change as minimal as possible to ease the (potential)
> > transition
> > and keep the C++ code close to the C code. This led to less idiomatic
> > C++ code,
> > but I value a "correct first" approach. There's an on-going effort by
> > seiko2plus
> > to remove that C layer, I acknowledge this would bring even more C++
> > code, but
> > that looks orthogonal to me (and a very good second step!)
> >
> > All lights are green for the PR, let's assume it's a solid ground for
> > discussion :-)
> > So, well, what do you think? Should we go forward?
> >
> > Potential follow-ups :
> >
> > - do we want to use -nostdlib, to be sure we don't bring any C++
> > runtime dep?
> > - what about -fno-exception, -fno-rtti?
> > - coding style?
> > - (I'm-not-a-farseer-I-don-t-know-all-topics)
> >
> > ___
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> > NumPy-Discussion@python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
> >
>
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-- 
Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it
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[Numpy-discussion] ENH: Extended choose -- add an implementation of the choose function which supports more than 32 choices

[Aaron Watters]

Hi folks!

The np.choose function raises a ValueError if called with more than 31
choices.
This PR adds an alternate implementation np.extended_choose (which uses the
base implementation) that supports any number of choices.

https://github.com/numpy/numpy/pull/20001

FYI, I needed this functionality for a mouse embryo microscopy tool I'm
building.
I'm attempting to contribute it because I thought it might be generally
useful.

All comments, complaints, or suggestions or code reviews appreciated.

   thanks! -- Aaron Watters
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: ENH: Extended choose -- add an implementation of the choose function which supports more than 32 choices

[Sebastian Berg]

On Wed, 2021-09-29 at 15:09 -0400, Aaron Watters wrote:
> Hi folks!
> 
> The np.choose function raises a ValueError if called with more than
> 31
> choices.
> This PR adds an alternate implementation np.extended_choose (which
> uses the
> base implementation) that supports any number of choices.
> 
> https://github.com/numpy/numpy/pull/20001
> 
> FYI, I needed this functionality for a mouse embryo microscopy tool
> I'm
> building.
> I'm attempting to contribute it because I thought it might be
> generally
> useful.


Thanks for the effort of upstreaming your code!  My inclination is
against adding it, though.  The limitation of `choose` to 32 argument
is unfortunate, but adding a new function as a workaround does not seem
great, either.
Maybe it would be possible to fix `choose` instead?  Unfortunately, it
seems likely that the current `choose` code is great for few choices
but bad for many, so that might require switching between different
strategies.

Importantly:  If your data (choices) is an array and not a sequence of
arrays, you should use `np.take_along_axis` instead, which is far
superior!
For small to mid-sized arrays, it may even be fastest to use it with
`np.asarray(choices)`, because it avoids many overheads.


Not happy with the idea of extending the way choose works to many
choices, I cooked up the approach below.  My expectation is that it
should be much faster for many choices, at least for larger arrays.
The approach below moves the work of the element to pick from which
choice into a (fairly involved) pre-processing step to make the final
assignment more streamlined.

Cheers,

Sebastian


```
from itertools import chain


def choose(a, choices):
# Make sure we work with the correct result shape.
# (this is not great if `a` ends up being broadcast)
a_bc, *choices = np.broadcast_arrays(a, *choices)

a = a_bc.ravel()
sorter = np.argsort(a, axis=None)
which = a[sorter]

indices = np.meshgrid(*[np.arange(s) for s in a_bc.shape])
indices = [i.ravel()[sorter] for i in indices]

out_dtype = np.result_type(*choices)

result = np.empty(choices[0].shape, dtype=out_dtype)

mask = np.empty(which.shape, dtype=bool)

ends = np.flatnonzero(which[1:] != which[:-1])
start = 0
for end in chain(ends, [len(which)]):
end += 1
choice = choices[which[start]]
ind = tuple(i[start:end] for i in indices)
result[ind] = choice[ind]

start = end

return result
```


> 
> All comments, complaints, or suggestions or code reviews appreciated.
> 
>    thanks! -- Aaron Watters
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Juan Nunez-Iglesias]

On scikit-image, we've moderated *subscriptions*, and only subscribers can post 
without being moderated, but still spam gets through, because it's hard to vet 
whether an email address is "genuine", so sometimes we allow the subscription, 
and immediately receive resulting spam. A "reputation" system in which the 
first, say, 3 emails from a user are moderated would be most useful. I don't 
think mailman provides this yet. (?)

My personal impression is that users/newcomers (as opposed to long-time core 
developers) definitely prefer Discourse to email. I also think it is a better 
experience browsing/searching the archives than mailman, despite recent 
improvements to the latter. So, without wanting to minimise the downsides, I do 
think that putting everyone on Discourse is the best approach forward. From 
what I can tell, none of the mailing lists that have made the move (Numba, 
Bokeh, Matplotlib) have regretted it.

Juan.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2021, at 5:11 PM, Matti Picus wrote:
> On 29/9/21 9:07 pm, Stefan van der Walt wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 03:02, Ralf Gommers wrote:
>>> We don't have admin access to the python.org  
>>> lists, so this is a bit of a problem. We have never had a spam 
>>> problem, so we can ask to block this user first. If it continues to 
>>> happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber emails, but we do 
>>> need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll get them.
>>>
>>> A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has 
>>> far better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more 
>>> approachable for people not used to mailing lists (which is most 
>>> newcomers to open source). Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the 
>>> new CZI grant having a focus on improving the contributor experience, 
>>> we should be able to do this.
>>
>> I would like to offer the use of https://discuss.scientific-python.org 
>> . I would be happy to handle 
>> email list migration, and have created the following two categories 
>> for NumPy discussion:
>>
>> User discussion: https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/user/numpy 
>> 
>> Contributor discussion: 
>> https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/contributor/numpy 
>> 
>>
>> We're happy to support this as part of the Scientific Python ecosystem 
>> grant, and will give admin rights to anyone on the NumPy developer 
>> team who wants to help manage / moderate discussions.
>>
>> Of course, we can also just delete these if the team prefers to have 
>> their discussions somewhere else.  But I think there is a benefit to 
>> bringing community discussions together in one place.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Stéfan
>
>
> Thanks for the offer to host the discussions on discourse. Personally, I 
> find the email interface to discourse very clunky. I would prefer we 
> exhaust the possibilities to stay on e-mail only before moving to discourse.
>
> Matti
>
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