Re: [Numpy-discussion] [IPython-dev] mercurial now has free hosting too
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:36:18AM +0200, Ville M. Vainio wrote: I think the killer issue here is Launchpad. We get pretty much everything for free, and it's something that we can expect to stay around in the long haul (and will continue to improve). The slight performance disadvantage of bzr is a minor concern, esp. for the project with the size of IPython. Both hg and bzr as-such (if we forget the hosting options etc) are good enough right now, and both are being improved. As it stands, I think we should stick with LP + bzr for now - we can re-evaluate the situation a year or so down the line, if need be. I have the very exact same gut fealing than you. I have watch developpers switch to DVCS lately, and I must say it requires a certain change in working habits. Let us wait for people to get used to these new tools before discussing which one to you. And don't get me wrong, I love DVCS, I just don't want to lose developper because of it. Gaël ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] [IPython-dev] mercurial now has free hosting too
Gael Varoquaux wrote: I have watch developpers switch to DVCS lately, and I must say it requires a certain change in working habits. Let us wait for people to get used to these new tools before discussing which one to you. I personally think that the supposed difficulty of DVCS is greatly exaggerated. Basic things are as easy with bzr/hg as they are with svn/svn: cheking out, committing, blame and log are exactly the same. Branching/merging is different, but I don't think anybody would argue that it is easier/more natural with svn that it is with DVCS. Advanced concepts are maybe a bit difficult to grasp, but nobody need them if they do not need them. In particular, if you do not use branches, the only difference between hg/bzr and svn is that commit in svn is equivalent to commit + push in bzr/hg. All the basic commands even have the same name and the same abbreviation (ci for commit, up for update). Compare that to the immediate benefits (such as tracking patches, for example, which at least for me is a PITA right now with trac+svn), I think it worths 5 minutes spent on getting used to the new tool. The problem really is the change of infrastructure (I don't think anybody would be in favor of losing numpy/scipy history, for example, or losing trac tickets for launchpad if we use launchpad), and for windows users who want GUI (which do not exist today in any usable form). cheers, David ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] [IPython-dev] mercurial now has free hosting too
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 07:08:31PM +0900, David Cournapeau wrote: Gael Varoquaux wrote: I have watch developpers switch to DVCS lately, and I must say it requires a certain change in working habits. Let us wait for people to get used to these new tools before discussing which one to you. I personally think that the supposed difficulty of DVCS is greatly exaggerated. Basic things are as easy with bzr/hg as they are with svn/svn: cheking out, committing, blame and log are exactly the same. Look, I am not talking about theory, I am talking about sitting with people and having to walk them through the conceptual difficulties, mainly due to the fact that you no longer have only one development tree. People are not used to that. I agree that DVCS is much better then centralised VCS, and I love working with it, I just feel that not everybody is ready for it yet, and that the tools are not as mature as for SVN yet. I think both will come in a year or two. My 2 centimes, Gaël ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] [IPython-dev] mercurial now has free hosting too
Gael Varoquaux wrote: Look, I am not talking about theory, I was not talking about theory: - svn co url - bzr co url - svn commit -m bla bla - bzr ci -m bla bla - svn up - bzr up - svn log - bzr log - svn blame - bzr blame You cannot be more concrete than that :) I agree about everything else: tools maturity, GUI for windows, etc... and I am not saying that we should change now or to bzr for that matter. But the difficulty for developers, I don't think it is a valid argument. It is only different if you use branching, which nobody forces people to use, and works better than in svn. cheers, David ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] [IPython-dev] mercurial now has free hosting too
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 07:26:13PM +0900, David Cournapeau wrote: Gael Varoquaux wrote: Look, I am not talking about theory, I was not talking about theory: - svn co url - bzr co url - svn commit -m bla bla - bzr ci -m bla bla - svn up - bzr up - svn log - bzr log - svn blame - bzr blame You cannot be more concrete than that :) Except that very often when you do a bzr up you have to do a merge because bzr makes obvious branching that is implicit with the svn model. In addition following the evolution of the trunk is harder because version numbers are harder to understand. Morever if you don't look at it with a tree view, you don't understand at all what is happening, and launchpad doesn't display a tree view, and under windows bzr viz (which rocks) requires a bit of work to get working. Thrust me, I have seen people quite often come up to me and ask me what do I do now?. Little details like the bzr merge;bzr conflicts; vim conflicting files; bzr resolv; bzr commit; bzr push confuse people. Once again, the tool is much more reliable than svn, and once you have understood it, its a breeze, with less bad surprises, but many people don't want to learn. Gaël ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] [IPython-dev] mercurial now has free hosting too
2008/3/26, David Cournapeau [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gael Varoquaux wrote: Except that very often when you do a bzr up you have to do a merge because bzr makes obvious branching that is implicit with the svn model. bzr does not branch implicitly, as far as I know, so I am not sure to understand how this could happen if you only track one branch (which is what most people who just want to get the sources would do). At least, things could be set up such as people do see only one branch by default. That's how bzr itself is developed, for example: I track the development branch for a long time, I never had to use any merge command. Only pull (that's something I forgot in my former email: there is a difference for commit vs commit + push, as well as for up vs pull). In the lastest NiPy sprint, we intensively used bzr. Each of us had its own branch, and then we merged regularly with the trunk with push/pulls. In a usual week, this is not always needed, but for a coding sprint, it is a nice model :) Matthieu Once again, the tool is much more reliable than svn, and once you have understood it, its a breeze, with less bad surprises, but many people don't want to learn. I guess my argument is the following: there are several groups of people who may be interested in the sources. It is as simple as svn for occasional contributors (people who get source, people who do a trivial patch), and it would be different for people who significantly contribute to one of the project. But I don't think this later group includes people who do not want to learn :) cheers. David ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion -- French PhD student Website : http://matthieu-brucher.developpez.com/ Blogs : http://matt.eifelle.com and http://blog.developpez.com/?blog=92 LinkedIn : http://www.linkedin.com/in/matthieubrucher ___ Numpy-discussion mailing list Numpy-discussion@scipy.org http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
